Hevi-Shot ball analysis! what is this stuff, cuz it isn't "hevi"

[cpileri]

regarding the balls referenced here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?247475-Hevi-Shot-Hog-Wild-12ga-dissection-w-pics

Here is the analysis verbatim
"(cpileri), the results are interesting. If you have Microsoft Excel you can open the attachment to see the results. For starters, the balls are NOT homogeneous in make-up; in other words all of the elements such as Aluminum (Al), Zinc (Zn), Tungsten (W), Iron (Fe), and Silicon (Si) are not evenly distributed throughout the balls.

The Zinc concentration on the interior of the cut ball is much higher than on the outside. Conversely, the Aluminum concentration is much higher on the outside of the ball. During the cooling of the casting, these metals may migrate due to their different densities (just a guess).

Nominally, this alloy is very close to something we call 10Aluminum/90Zinc Alloy. However, the Tungsten puts it into another category. The Silicon and Iron presence are puzzling, too.

Intact Ball 1st Shot: Zn 88.75% Al 10.04% Si 0.390% Fe 0.027% W 0.745%
Intact Ball 2nd Shot: Zn 89.74% Al 8.65% Si -0- Fe 0.037% W 1.55% (This shot was taken right on the "mid-line" of the ball.)
Intact Ball 3rd Shot: Zn 89.33% Al 9.39% Si 0.546% Fe 0.42% W 0.683%

Large Half Ball Inside: Zn 93.82% Al 5.02% Si -0- Fe -0- W 1.12%
Large Half Outside: Zn 90.48% Al 7.82% Si -0- Fe -0- W 1.67%
Small Half Ball Inside: Zn 94.97% Al 4.95% Si -0- Fe 0.01% W -0-
Small Half Outside: Zn 89.19% Al 9.82% Si 0.359% Fe 0.01% W 0.585%"
and,
" I would like to retain them permanently to serve as illustrations of non-homogeneity in cast materials, if that is OK with you."

Interesting and brings up a whole host of other questions about casting in general! At least to me.
C-

[Hogtamer]

Now we know why those pesky roundballs spin off into parts unknown! uneven weight distribution in the sphere, one here, one there!

[cpileri]

i tried to contact envirometal but the little anti-spam code on their website doesnt want to work. i just want to know why they chose a lighter-than-steel alloy and any results on game. but maybe they dont want to be contacted. anyone got an email for them?
C-

[tomme boy]

It looks like I can get out of the corner as I was told to go there for suggesting it was a Aluminum alloy.

[tomme boy]

They have a tele # at the bottom of the page

[cpileri]

tommeboy, you're ok w me.
i registered and posted the question on their forum. will see if any answer
C-

[tomme boy]

What was the weight of the balls? It seems really slow unless the total payload is high.

[cpileri]

206 gr each.
BTW, the answer I got on the forum was that the forum isnt a "conduit to customer service"-which, at least via website doesnt work. looks like I am stuck w calling them.
We'll see.
C-

[cpileri]

I got an answer from their sales dept, here it is:
Dear (cpileri)–

Thanks for your inquiry. I am curious about how you are getting your chemistry measurements and what you are using for standards for your analytical technique, since you are reporting elements that are not supposed to be there and compositions that are not available in cast-able commercial alloys.

But I think your real question is, why use a relatively light alloy? The answer is product safety. Think about a hunter who misses his shot at a pig in a rocky area. When a lead, tungsten, or steel ball strikes rock, it will ricochet. When our ball strikes rock, it breaks to bits and does not ricochet.

We tested the penetration and lethality of our alloy through analysis and Perma-Gel, of course – but we also tested it on pigs, on the ground and from helicopters. if you shoot one, you will see: it's very lethal in the field on animals. It also has a subdued kick, which makes it a pleasure to shoot at the varmints, especially when you're hanging out of a helicopter.

I invite you to try Hog Wild on a pig hunt of your own, and let me know how it works for you.



So i did follow up w a bunch of other questions. Will let you all know what they say on those as well.
C-

[tomme boy]

So in other words, the alloy specified is not what the Chinese supplier sent. Is what I gather. Or they don't want the composition known.

[Hogtamer]

My lead doesn't seem to do much ricocheting as I generally hit what I shoot at. They seem to favor shrapnel as a safety feature over soft lead balls and slugs....

[BattleRife]

It looks like I can get out of the corner as I was told to go there for suggesting it was a Aluminum alloy.

It looks like I should have been nicer, I'm definitely the bad guy here. For my part I am feeling sheepish for not recognizing that it could be a zinc alloy, given how close the estimated overall density was to that of zinc.

Who did this analysis for you? The guy seems to have some decent analysis equipment and some knowledge of metallurgy, but some of his comments are a bit strange. Commercial casting alloys virtually always silicon in them, pressure die cast alloys in particular. This is because silicon adds remarkably to fluidity, the same reason we add tin to bullet alloys. Commercial alloys very often have iron in them, too, because iron is everywhere in the metals supply chain and contaminates everything.

The phenomenon of constitutional segregation, AKA coring, is due to the difference in atomic size, not density. Each element is a different size, and when you try to stack them into crystals, as all metals are, it is difficult for mismatched atoms to fit into the pattern. Picture trying to build a stack of grapefruits when you have a couple of plums and a canteloupe in the mix. It's easier to stack all the grapefruits together and leave the odd sized ones to the side.

It's hard to understand why that tungsten is in there, at such a small concentration it really doesn't affect density much. I suspect this is the element that "are not supposed to be there". The analysis method may be mistaking something else for the tungsten. Most of the portable analysis systems can be off by multiple % in their results. The important takeaway here is that it is a 90Zn-10Al alloy, with impurities.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I think the real issue here has to do with price & availability. From a terminal ballistic view heavier will always be better and, short of silver and gold, lead is the perfect material for buckshot. The safety claim sounds a bit iffy to me.

[Tackleberry41]

So the manufacturer sounds a bit perturbed you even questioned anything. Because obviously they would know better than anybody else. I always see hevi shot shells on the shelf, for considerably more than everything else, never had a need to buy any. Not sure the safety thing is really a concern, okay maybe if you hunt pigs from a helicopter.

Makes you wonder what else they may be not completely honest about. I have been buying rio shells at the LGS a mile away. Its easy enough to open them up and melt the shot down to make 20ga slugs or #4 buck, put it back in. Its bird shot you would think, lead, maybe a coating to keep the stuff from oxidizing. Not sure what they use, but there is part of the mix that just isnt lead, outmeal looking stuff that wont quite melt you need to get out. And something that makes this scum on the top, a green powder that gets all over the pot and dipper, no amount of fluxing gets rid of it.

I went and bought some of the bulk winchester 12 ga shells they sell in the 100 pack at walmart. Same thing pop em open and melt them down, says 1 1/8 oz load on the box, only something wasnt right. Sure enough 1 1/8 oz of shot wont fit in the shell, no there is only 1 oz of shot in them. Worked out okay as a 1 oz lee slug fits in the shot cup without need of a spacer to get the crimp right. Imagine they never figured its cheap stuff people are gonna just shoot it, not open them up and weigh anything. Sent an email off to winchester, but they never bothered to answer why they sell them as 1 1/8oz but only have 1 oz, every 8 shells is an ounce of lead they can save, but still charge for.

[cpileri]

kinda makes you want to dissect all factory ammo as "end user quality control"- though it shouldnt be necessary!
or avoid it all by rolling your own.
C-

[RMc]

"I went and bought some of the bulk winchester 12 ga shells they sell in the 100 pack at walmart. Same thing pop em open and melt them down, says 1 1/8 oz load on the box, only something wasnt right. Sure enough 1 1/8 oz of shot wont fit in the shell, no there is only 1 oz of shot in them." Tackleberry41


SAAMI voluntary industry standards for Shot Weight + from nominal:

Game loads: +4% -7%
Target loads: +3% -5%

So a 1 1/8 ounce nominal weight can be: 492 x .93 = 458 grains or 1.05 ounce.

Yes, fractions of an ounce add up quickly.

--------------------------------------------------



206 gr each.

Interesting, HeviShot conveniently left out the actual pellet weight on the Hog Wild spec. sheet.

[cpileri]

Yeah. I guess "really light shot" (with the trendy intentional misspelling of "lite-shawt") or "anorexic alloy shot" (go ahead, misspell that!) or "hawg weightless" wouldnt have been too good an ad campaign.

i dunno; maybe they were just trying not to copyright infringe on Dixie, so they made their unique spacers, and different diameter balls and said "lets make it faster than tri-ball, too"; and came up with this two- and three- low-density alloy load. then outsourced for 90zn/10al balls and got them with some impurities from whomever.

I plan to try a bunch of loads, these included, on beef femur either packed in newspaper or plumbers putty, whichever I can get when the time comes, and see how they do.

[Tackleberry41]

[QUOTE=RMc;2895181]"I went and bought some of the bulk winchester 12 ga shells they sell in the 100 pack at walmart. Same thing pop em open and melt them down, says 1 1/8 oz load on the box, only something wasnt right. Sure enough 1 1/8 oz of shot wont fit in the shell, no there is only 1 oz of shot in them." Tackleberry41


SAAMI voluntary industry standards for Shot Weight + from nominal:

Game loads: +4% -7%
Target loads: +3% -5%

So a 1 1/8 ounce nominal weight can be: 492 x .93 = 458 grains or 1.05 ounce.

Yes, fractions of an ounce add up quickly.

I doubt it was a simple case of well its within the + or - voluntary industry specs. They knew what they were doing. Who is gonna be cutting those shells open to measure things? Its just cheap blasting ammo. The hulls arent even any good to reuse. They were the same exact price as 100rds of federal 1 1/8 oz shells on the shelf next to them. So they got a little more profit out of the deal. But yea you wonder where else they might be cutting corners. Maybe a little less powder in each 30-30 shell, who would notice? Or those 230gr 45 auto are not really 230gr. I finally managed to get a hold of some bulk pack 22 at walmart, Winchester 333, why they use an odd count not sure. But ended up sending them back, a misfire here or there in cheap rimfire is sort of acceptable, but 1 out of every 3? Some you could rotate and they would fire, some had 3 dents in them and still didnt go off. Most that did go off would give a good crack, some more of a pop.

[cpileri]

Here is a follow up email I got from the manufacturer. A little more info:


Dear (cpileri) –

Setting aside the chemistry questions for now, l'll tell you what we know about impact on heavy bone with this load, which is not much. We have tested our frangible pellets (e.g. Dead Coyote!®) on bone in Perma-Gel (i.e. surrounded by a flesh-like fluid), and they go right through and look re-usable. Same result when firing into wood.

We haven't done a necropsy on a shot pig with these balls that helped us understand what the balls do against heavy bone, but I'm thinking they probably behave like our frangible pellets. That is, I would imagine they stay intact through the bone until they run out of energy and stop, either in or through the bone. The balls have about 10 times the tensile strength of lead balls, so they don't fragment as easily.

We do have field reports from hunters who have "blown up" pig skulls with head shots at 50 yards, so whatever is happening seems to work.

Thanks for your interest in HEVI-Shot and, when you get to try Hog Wild, please let us know how it goes for you.

Best Regards,
K---- S------
VP Sales & Marketing

[RMc]

There is no doubt that "Promotional" Dove and Quail loads are made to the lowest price point. Adding up the cost cutting factors inherent in such shotshells can leave your head swimming. However, when you consider the market the shotshells are designed for it makes perfect sense.

John Q. Shotgunner, is looking for the lowest cost general shooting and dove loads he can find. If it works, breaks a few targets and occasionally downs a dove, he is satisfied. Will John Q. Shotgunner pattern these loads? No! Indeed the only choke tube he owns will probably be the one that was installed in his shotgun at the factory.

Serious shotgunners are at the opposite end of the marketing scene. For clay target or dove shooting, only the best shotshells used by the winners in national and international competition are good enough. Yes, he patterned his loads with carefully selected choke combinations. He has a good idea of just how far his favored gun/choke/load combination will hold sufficient pattern density for the game. Yes, he is indeed willing to pay the tariff for the "best" shotshell performance.

John Q. Shotgunner's opinion of Mr. Serious Shotgunner:

"Man, you're taking this shooting stuff way to seriously!"




[QUOTE=RMc;2895181]"I went and bought some of the bulk winchester 12 ga shells they sell in the 100 pack at walmart. Same thing pop em open and melt them down, says 1 1/8 oz load on the box, only something wasnt right. Sure enough 1 1/8 oz of shot wont fit in the shell, no there is only 1 oz of shot in them." Tackleberry41


SAAMI voluntary industry standards for Shot Weight + from nominal:

Game loads: +4% -7%
Target loads: +3% -5%

So a 1 1/8 ounce nominal weight can be: 492 x .93 = 458 grains or 1.05 ounce.

Yes, fractions of an ounce add up quickly.

I doubt it was a simple case of well its within the + or - voluntary industry specs. They knew what they were doing. Who is gonna be cutting those shells open to measure things? Its just cheap blasting ammo. The hulls arent even any good to reuse. They were the same exact price as 100rds of federal 1 1/8 oz shells on the shelf next to them. So they got a little more profit out of the deal. But yea you wonder where else they might be cutting corners. Maybe a little less powder in each 30-30 shell, who would notice? Or those 230gr 45 auto are not really 230gr. I finally managed to get a hold of some bulk pack 22 at walmart, Winchester 333, why they use an odd count not sure. But ended up sending them back, a misfire here or there in cheap rimfire is sort of acceptable, but 1 out of every 3? Some you could rotate and they would fire, some had 3 dents in them and still didnt go off. Most that did go off would give a good crack, some more of a pop.