Finally I get a decent load for my 77/357 rifle with cast boolits

[Camba]

My Ruger 77/357 Mag rifle finally found a decent load using cast boolits. I have tried mostly the 158gr either in SWC or RNFP type and was not able to get the right groups with them. Last week, I found some 125gr TCFP Missouri Company cast boolits and decided load some low velocity 357 mag for my daughter's revolver.

My load was:

125 gr TCFP Cast MBC
5.1gr Bullseye
WSP Primers
OAL = 1.540"
Velocity: Unknown (the only speed reference is using 5.0 gr Bullseye with a 158gr cast in the same 77/357 rifle at 1,148 fps)

Target below with 4 groups shot at 50 yards (clockwise from left, top middle, right, and bottom middle). Another group not shown in the picture was for bringing the impact to the target as this load was shooting 4 inches low from point of aim. The left group was still low and I adjusted more and left it there. Seems that the group tighten up more as I kept shooting.
Once I figure out what's wrong with my chronometer, I will check velocities. Anyone know what kind of velocity would this load be doing?
Camba

113140

[FLHTC]

You can't be too far off the 1,148. I would guess no more that about 150 fps. I have yet to find a good cast load for me 77 either and was thinking about trying Trail Boss and a 100 grain semi-wadcutter. I have heard that the lighter cast bullets shoot better out of the 77.

[Larry Gibson]

Have you tried any GC'd cast bullets in the 77/357?

Larry Gibson

[FLHTC]

Have you tried any GC'd cast bullets in the 77/357?

Larry Gibson

I have but i'm still not happy. 158 and 180 JSP are winners though

[Larry Gibson]

If it shoots the 158 and 180 jacketed then it should shoot a GC'd cast bullet in that weight range as well. What GC'd bullets have you tried? What alloy? What lube and what sizing? What loads?

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

Not shooting a Ruger here but a Marlin. I had a new barrel installed by Marlin and at the time all they had available was stainless so went with that.
This has proven a most finicky barrel that until recently its quirk eluded me. What I have discovered with this new barrel is that it will not tolerate a shouldered boolit such as a SWC. It will only yield up its love from RF type designs.
I strongly suspect the problem is because of a very sharp edged lead ahead of its chamber that is causing shouldered type boolits to be shaved where as a non shouldered type boolit is more forgiving to being nudged into alignment. Just my thought anyway and cant prove it without a chamber cast.
If I am right with enough shooting it will correct itself but for now I will just use RF type boolits.
BTW the one outstanding load for my gun is using the 190gn Ranch Dog design pushed by 5.5 gn of American Select. Alloy is COWW air cooled sized .360" lubed with Bullshop LOTAK lube. This load is without a gas check as I found the use of a gas check with this load makes no difference at all other than greater expense.

[FLHTC]

If it shoots the 158 and 180 jacketed then it should shoot a GC'd cast bullet in that weight range as well. What GC'd bullets have you tried? What alloy? What lube and what sizing? What loads?

Larry Gibson

Don't bet on it. The 77's are notorious for poor accuracy with cast bullets. It's the same loads that shoot like a dream in my Blackhawk. I shoot the 358156 made from ACWW, with 13 grains of 296, Lyman's alox and sized .358. If i shoot two cylinders of these in my Blackhawk at 25 yards from a rest, they group so tightly i have trouble counting the holes. At 50 yards in my 77, they group at about 6".

[FLHTC]

Not shooting a Ruger here but a Marlin. I had a new barrel installed by Marlin and at the time all they had available was stainless so went with that.
This has proven a most finicky barrel that until recently its quirk eluded me. What I have discovered with this new barrel is that it will not tolerate a shouldered boolit such as a SWC. It will only yield up its love from RF type designs.
I strongly suspect the problem is because of a very sharp edged lead ahead of its chamber that is causing shouldered type boolits to be shaved where as a non shouldered type boolit is more forgiving to being nudged into alignment. Just my thought anyway and cant prove it without a chamber cast.
If I am right with enough shooting it will correct itself but for now I will just use RF type boolits.
BTW the one outstanding load for my gun is using the 190gn Ranch Dog design pushed by 5.5 gn of American Select. Alloy is COWW air cooled sized .360" lubed with Bullshop LOTAK lube. This load is without a gas check as I found the use of a gas check with this load makes no difference at all other than greater expense.

Good point about the sharp shoulder. I'm not going to do a chamber cast although I do have some plain base round nosed bullets so i might give them a whirl

[wallenba]

Quick, related question. Do you get any bulging in the bottom of the case just above the web that can't be iron out? Mine does and it makes reloading the brass a pain.

[FLHTC]

Quick, related question. Do you get any bulging in the bottom of the case just above the web that can't be iron out? Mine does and it makes reloading the brass a pain.

Didn't quite notice any although, I just throw my empties in a bucket.

[Larry Gibson]

FLHTC

As I've mentioned numerous times when the topic of handgun cartridges in rifles comes up; Load for accuracy in the rifle staying within the respective handgun load data. Then just accept the rifle load in the handgun as most often it will shoot very well there.

Many load for the handgun and expect excellent results in the rifle. Most often it doesn't work out that way. Could very well be a problem with the throats as Bullshop mentions(?). However, 13 gr of 296 is about 2 gr below the recommended 15 - 15.5 gr under the 358156 cast bullet. Have you tried 15 - 15.5 gr 296 under that cast bullet? That is getting into true magnum level velocities and psi's so adding 2% tin to your COWW alloy my help.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

You got it right Larry. The problem child is my Marlin and anything that shoots good in it also shoots good in my revolver but for that matter my revolver shoots about anything that fits the chambers good.
BTW my revolver is a Ruger Bisley 7.5"

[Camba]

I have not tried the GC 357 boolits. My 77/357 seem to do well with the 158gr GDSP jacketed bullets and anything I tried (158's) had never impressed me. I like to try some. I need to get a new GC bullet mold. It will be best if it is RNFP type so it can feed reliable in the rifle. Definitely, high velocities, cast boolits do not work with the components I am using.

[Camba]

I meant to say everything 158 cast boolits.

[FLHTC]

FLHTC

As I've mentioned numerous times when the topic of handgun cartridges in rifles comes up; Load for accuracy in the rifle staying within the respective handgun load data. Then just accept the rifle load in the handgun as most often it will shoot very well there.

Many load for the handgun and expect excellent results in the rifle. Most often it doesn't work out that way. Could very well be a problem with the throats as Bullshop mentions(?). However, 13 gr of 296 is about 2 gr below the recommended 15 - 15.5 gr under the 358156 cast bullet. Have you tried 15 - 15.5 gr 296 under that cast bullet? That is getting into true magnum level velocities and psi's so adding 2% tin to your COWW alloy my help.

Larry Gibson

No i haven't tried 15.5 grains in my 77 because i don't shoot that load in my handgun and I won't. I don't shoot max loads in anything i own and i get good accuracy and out of all the guns i own, the 77 is the only one that proves to be the most difficult. This load shot fine in my 1894

[Larry Gibson]

FLHTC

Were you aware that "maximum" does not always relate to psi? In the 357 with 296 it relates to max capacity and loading below the recommended amounts can be dangerous. You may think you're safe with less of 296 but you may not be. That you are satisfied with less from your 77/357 does not mean the OP has to be. Was the OP I was trying to help.

Larry Gibson

[FLHTC]

FLHTC

Were you aware that "maximum" does not always relate to psi? In the 357 with 296 it relates to max capacity and loading below the recommended amounts can be dangerous. You may think you're safe with less of 296 but you may not be. That you are satisfied with less from your 77/357 does not mean the OP has to be. Was the OP I was trying to help.

Larry Gibson
But you were answering me. :???:
The book i'm getting my data from has a range of 11.6 grains to 15.7 of H110/296 with the 358156. The text states that the loads in the shaded panels are maximum with 15.7 being in the shaded panel. Thanks for your advice

[Larry Gibson]

Deleted post...........what ever..........

Larry Gibson

[Camba]

Larry,
I don't have W296 but I do have H110 (I have heard that it is very equivalent). Do you think that could do the trick? I tried those load values with the H110 with great results with the GDSP bullet and it did not do too well with the 158 Lee FP cast. I had also tried some SWC in 158 and did not get good results either.
I think the GC boolit could ring me better news.
I want you to know that I do appreciate your advice and knowledge in cast boolit ammo. So far I have gotten a lot further in my 7mm's since I asked several posts earlier in this forum. I say the same thing for you too, FLTHC, I do believe each rifle is its own unique characteristics and what works for one may not work in the other. Good advise puts you in the paper target and the rest is your own.
Thank you Larry and FLCHT.
Camba

[FLHTC]

Larry,
I don't have W296 but I do have H110 (I have heard that it is very equivalent). Do you think that could do the trick? I tried those load values with the H110 with great results with the GDSP bullet and it did not do too well with the 158 Lee FP cast. I had also tried some SWC in 158 and did not get good results either.
I think the GC boolit could ring me better news.
I want you to know that I do appreciate your advice and knowledge in cast boolit ammo. So far I have gotten a lot further in my 7mm's since I asked several posts earlier in this forum. I say the same thing for you too, FLTHC, I do believe each rifle is its own unique characteristics and what works for one may not work in the other. Good advise puts you in the paper target and the rest is your own.
Thank you Larry and FLCHT.
Camba

camba, this is the data I have been using for my cast load. everyone I've come across, including the two other shooters at my range with one of these rifles has the same problem with cast loads. I have to agree with you about every rifle having it's own idiosyncrasies but i'm beginning to believe the 357/77 has accuracy issues like some of the tang safety guns. good luck with your's.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n190/Thompson-Fan/20140813_072551.jpg (http://s112.photobucket.com/user/Thompson-Fan/media/20140813_072551.jpg.html)

[Larry Gibson]

Camba
What you seeabove is very old data and notice it is for H110.....the old military surplusH110. New H110 and 296 are the same powder made at the same plant. Any variations in new load data for either will simply be due to lot to lotvariations and variations in testing. I'm using Lyman manuals; 3 of them. CBH #3 only lists one load for 296 under the 358156 in the.357Magnum. That is 15.6 gr. CBH #4 and the 49th Edition of the LymanReloading manual do not list 296 but list H110 which is the same powder. They both list 15 - 15.7 gr under the358156. Hodgdon's site, (the maker of both powders), does notlist a cast bullet load for either powder.

I found long ago with rifles in .357, 44 and 45 pistol calibers that the topend handgun loads (magnum level) with PB’dcast bullets are usually not accurate in rifles. The reason is the higher velocities. FB’d aren’t as bad as BB’d and really hardcast FB’d do the best. However, GC’dbullets almost always give the same accuracy potential as jacketed bullets atthe same magnum level velocities. Aquality GC’d cast bullet such as the 358156 cast of COWWs +2% tin or #2 alloy,lubed with a good softer lube like BAC or a NRA 50/50 and sized .359 - .360 andloaded over maximum revolver loads of 2400, 4227, Blue Dot or H110/296 shouldgive very good accuracy, at least what the rifle is capable of. The only caveat should be throat issues asBullshop mentioned. The Lee 158 GC’dcast bullet should also be a good performer as should the RCBS 38-158-SWC. The RCBS heavier 357-180-SIL might also begood but I’m not sure it will fit the magazine of the 77/357 when seated to thecrimp groove(?).

Larry Gibson

[Island Trash]

I am getting consistent 3/4 inch groups at 50 yards with a load of 6.0 grains of Green Dot under a Saeco 382 158 gr SWC plainbase in Starline brass with CCI small pistol primers. My keg of Green Dot is pretty old, still in the cardboard keg, but I have about 6 pounds left.

I have floated the barrel and done a bit of trigger work. But it is one of the best loads I have found. I believe the 6.0 grains was the book starting load. I went higher, but groups fell apart. Not sure on velocity, but it would be a "light" magnum.

I tend to shoot a few hundred at a time when I can get to the range with it.

[robg]

my win94 likes 8.5g true blue with rcbs 158g gc or 11.5g 2400 with rcbs180g gc sil bullets. 2.5inch groups at 100 yards .3inch at 25yards. if i could shoot it would probaly do better

[lmcollins]

Gentlemen: just thinking about your problem. If you think that the lead angle of your chamber is too abrupt you can take a cast pure lead muzzleloader ball and press it gently up in the throat to check the lead angle of your chamber, and then gently push it out from the muzzle. Use small light taps, and a gentle push to remove the slug/ball.

You are only trying to check the leade angle, and remember that the difference between a land and a groove is only .003 or .004 of an inch. One of the old Precision Shooting writer used to chamber his barrel, and then mount a jacket bullet on a length of rod and then polish the ends of his leade with fine compound to the slight extent of polishing the small burrs off of his chamber's leade angle.

If it were my rifle I'd take a 357 case and progressively drill its flash hole until it admitted a 35 caliber jacketed rifle bullet like the Speer 220 grain, mark it with a marker to check its contact with the chamber's leade. I'd then gently put some fine lapping compound on that point of the bullet and see if I couldn't change my chamber's leade angle to make it more gentle an included angle. Slow, careful, and re-slug.

It's a rifle, and all you are doing is changing your leade a bit. The best thing would be to buy a 3 degree throating reamer from someone like Manson, or Clymer.

I have had many of my chambering reamers throats removed so that I can throat for mag length. I had the throats
removed from my 6.5-06 and 6.5x55 Swede reamers. I think I'd do the same if I were to buy a 7x57 reamer. A throat can always be made deeper.... You cannot put metal back.

[Camba]

I like the idea of the gas check test. I don't have a mold yet to do that but soon I will. I have one in the 44 magnum with gas check and it does shoot great (in a revolver at least). I have not tried in a rifle.
Camba

[Camba]

FLHTC,
I believe I have that data somewhere. I bought some of those "one caliber loads" in multiple calibers. I have not found my 357 mag loading book but it looks so close to that.

[taco650]

To follow up on Larry's comments about h110/296. I've read the warnings about trying to download these two powders and tried myself to get accuracy from the "starting" load listed in my manuals. My results have shown that the best accuracy always happens close to the maximum charge.

[rollmyown]

I've not experimented with mine much yet and am using a light load of Trailboss behind the Lee 125gn RF at subsonic velocity. Not great accuracy, but OK on small game out to 75 meters. Works like a 22LR on steroids with plenty of knockdown.
Is it just the 357's that have accuracy issues or does the 44mag have issues too?
What are the theories? Caliber? 2 piece rear locking bolt? Other issues with the rifle?
I'm determined to stick with mine and get it to good hunting accuracy within the limitations of the round.

[Camba]

I have the 77/44 mag rifle also but I have not tried to find a good load for it yet. I have shot it a few times and I thought it shoot good but nothing to brag about. I like to find the load that I can use it with cast boolits and have enough accuracy to make it worthwhile reloading for it.
I took my 77/357 this afternoon to follow up in the range with the 125gr TCFP Missouri Bullet Co. cast boolit and I tried 2 loads. The 5.2gr Bullseye and the 5.5gr Bullseye with the rest of the components being all the same (i.e. 125gr TCFP, WSP, ... etc.)

113829113830113831113832113833113834

[Camba]

I will definitely add the 357 GC boolit for my 357 rifle and if I can find one in 125gr GC too.

[Bullwolf]

I also own a Ruger bolt action 77/357 rifle.

113858

While I have not yet tried Gas Check boolits in my 77/357, it shoots J-word stuff fine. It also shoots my favorite Lyman 358311 cast 357 magnum load well (a mid-range Blue Dot load) at 50 yards, and to the same point of aim. I tend to cast that boolit pretty hard, out of a mix of Lino and Monotype.

Looking at the rifles leade, it is pretty sharp and abrupt. This rifle would likely benefit from pass with a throat reamer, or at least a mild lapping of the starting edge of the rifling/throat.

It's a very hard thing to take a picture of in detail.

113857

The majority of the shooting done with my 77/357 is plinking, or ringing my 50 yard gong from my porch. I don't shoot it at paper very often. I got it to be a companion for a 357 revolver.

I have an older paper target, back from when I was sighting in the scope.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=98867&d=1394181945

The previous hits covered with target dots, were from me walking the scope in.

That target was shot at 50 yards on 6/7/12 when the gun was brand new. It had only just been cleaned, after bore sighting the scope.

I was shooting Fiocchi 357 magnum 142 grain FMJ/TC to sight it in, the lower hits were a few rounds of Winchester White Box 38 special 130 grain FMJ to see my holdover between the 38 and the 357 at 50 yards.

I also checked my heavy 357 magnum JHP 158 grain Blue Dot load, and my Lyman 358311 cast 357 magnum load. They both shoot to the same point of aim at 50.

My 77/357 will keep on a paper plate at 50 yards easily using either factory ammo, or my hand load. I have not set out to shoot it farther, as shooting around 50 yards was pretty much all that I wanted it for.



- Bullwolf

[taco650]

113829113830113831113832113833113834

Those 75 yard targets easily look "minute of deer" to me.

[Camba]

You are right taco650.
This rifle has shot 1.5" at a 100 yds with j-words using magnum loads with H110. I 've just don't have lots of bullets (j-words) so I am looking to the cast boolit alternative to keep having fun and continue to shoot. And yes, I should be able to drop a deer at 50 to 75 yards with it.
In the past, I was having a hard time getting significant groups with cast boolits because I was using nearly the same powder load as the ones with j-words. After reading multiple advice in this forum, I started to look for accuracy first, velocity second.

[Camba]

Bullwolf,

You got a good rifle.

[taco650]

Camba,

I've been casting the Lee 310 gr FPGC sized to 430 for a few years now the best loads I've found for my SBH revolver is 18gr of 296. My SBH has the stock 7.5" 1-20 twist barrel. However, I can't get this same boolit to shoot decent groups in my Dan Wesson 6" 44mag regardless of the powder or amount that is behind it. It really seems to prefer 240 gr pills, either cast or jacketed. It also does well with lighter jacketed slugs too.

Obviously a revolver is a different animal than your rifle so none of this may help you. What's the twist rate your barrel? If its on the slow side its going to prefer lighter bullets. I'd try a gas check design as you can drive them faster without the leading issues. Fit is also important. Its better if they are oversized than under and a lot of commercial cast boolits seem to be on the small size from what I've observed.

[lmcollins]

Still this throat thing has not really been checked out.

Remember: most cast bullets for the 38/357 are made to shoot in a revolver, and are used to having the forcing cone of the barrel "align and throat" them as they leave the cylinder. So: the throat of a rifles chamber is very important.

If you can shoot your cast bullet at high pressure into your rifle's chamber throat there is no reason that you cannot take a cast bullet and drop it into your rifle's throat with the muzzle pointed down and gently tap it into the throat to see what you have got for a throat, and then push it out from the muzzle into a rag stuffed into the breech. Someone do so, and show us what you have.

I suggested lapping with a Speer rifle bullet because they have a long tapered ogive, and would give a longer tapered throat leade. To test the throat edge concept just test with what you have. You do not have to make an entire throat impression to check the edge of the leade.

[taco650]

Still this throat thing has not really been checked out.

Remember: most cast bullets for the 38/357 are made to shoot in a revolver, and are used to having the forcing cone of the barrel "align and throat" them as they leave the cylinder. So: the throat of a rifles chamber is very important.

If you can shoot your cast bullet at high pressure into your rifle's chamber throat there is no reason that you cannot take a cast bullet and drop it into your rifle's throat with the muzzle pointed down and gently tap it into the throat to see what you have got for a throat, and then push it out from the muzzle into a rag stuffed into the breech. Someone do so, and show us what you have.

I suggested lapping with a Speer rifle bullet because they have a long tapered ogive, and would give a longer tapered throat leade. To test the throat edge concept just test with what you have. You do not have to make an entire throat impression to check the edge of the leade.

What if you tried a round nose style boolit? Most cast boolit designs for revolver cartridges flat nosed with a wide meplat so a short or non-existant leade would cause alignment problems. Might look into a truncated cone shape nose also.

[rockshooter]

I'm getting excellent accuracy and 1805 fps in my 77/357 with the NOE version of the 358477 GC. I use 15.1 gr of H110.
Loren

[rollmyown]

I'm getting excellent accuracy and 1805 fps in my 77/357 with the NOE version of the 358477 GC. I use 15.1 gr of H110.
Loren

What size groups at what range?

[Weaponologist]

I've got a 77/357 and I started with 38 first. I found a great load for 38 and will probably start with the cast boolit I found for that when I do the 357.
I'm using a 147gr LRN with 4.4gr. of Unique powder. I've been shooting ragged holes at 50 yards so far..I'll get pictures and post them. I use the Lucky 13 boolits .358 because there more of a long boolit and seem to have great Accuracy. And it's local Boy's that make them so I'm a little prejudiced in that regards. Got to stick with your peep's in the Mother land.....lol....

[Camba]

I went to the shooting range last sunday and decided to fire a couple of groups with the same load (77/357, 5.1gr Bullseye, 125gr TCFP, WSP) and I place the target at 50 yards. The first group started like this:
The first shot went high narrowly missing the paper target. The following 4 shot made like a 1.5 to 2" group.
The second group started to go all over the place creating like a 8" or bigger "buckshot" pattern.
The third group started missing the paper. At this time I was not happy and instead of leaving the shooting range, I decided to bring the target to the 25 yard line so that at least hit the paper while I troubleshoot what is going on. a

First group at 25 yards I almost miss the paper and the following 4 rounds went into a 1.5" group. Then, I decided to take the scope off and try open sights. To my surprise, the back ring of my scope was already loose. I decided to tighten it up and give it a try at the 25 yard, just in case.
In the picture below, see the first group with the loose scope at the upper left side of the large target. The smaller target (up) I use to re-zero the impact to the 6-o'clock of the 1" target. Then I shot the right big target, the small (bottom) target and concluded at the left big target. Now I feel better. I am wondering how the scope got loose and how long had I been shooting it that way?
Camba

115875

[Weaponologist]

That's good you found that loose scope. I haven't taken my 77/357 out of the Reloading room yet. In the processes of getting and cleaning some once fired 357 brass. Once I do that I intend to start working up some loads. Will get my Chrony out to before I report all the data. hopefully it will come as easy as the 38 load did.
Hope this is the turning point for you as well. Now everything should start closing in as you keep moving the target out..good luck..