The outlaw Josie Wales

[troyboy]

What firearms did Josie use?

[plmitch]

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Outlaw_Josey_Wales,_The

[AlaskanGuy]

If you mean the film, they used a whole lot of converted colts it seems.... I dont think the original Josie had access to them..lol

[MBTcustom]

In the film, he had four Colt walkers on his saddle and a Sharps rifle in the scabbard. He carried two Colt walkers at his sides, an 1860 .44 in a cross draw holster, and a .36 in a shoulder holster.
In reality, you can figure that a guerrilla fighter such as him would have all his pistols being 1851ish model with brass frames oriented in similar fashion. The Guerrilla fighters of the civil war performed the same job as the modern attack helicopter. Loaded to the gills and designed for mobility to strike quick and put a bunch of disruptive firepower into the enemy.

So you figure 8 pistols that weighed 2.5 lbs each with the hammer on an empty chamber, so that's 40 rounds.
What those guys wouldn't give for just one 8lb Ar-15 with an extra magazine.

[Hickory]

I don't know if any of you guys have ever noticed, but in every scene where Clint Eastwood fires a gun, he closes his eyes. In other words, Clint has a flinch problem.

[AlaskanGuy]

Seems to be so.... Check out some of the Dirty Harry films where he is packing big iron....

[Kskybroom]

The Road Agents Spin
We got something' in the territory called the Missouri boat ride

[Airman Basic]

I don't know if any of you guys have ever noticed, but in every scene where Clint Eastwood fires a gun, he closes his eyes. In other words, Clint has a flinch problem.
"All the best cowboys have chinese eyes."

[GhostHawk]

I disagree, I don't think those guys would like the AR, small bullet, high velocity.

Now an SKS or AK is possible, but I suspect those guys would really freak for Garand's.

US made, bigger bullet, still has speed 8 shots semi auto, and shove in another clip and rock and roll.
Those boys would LOVE the 30-06. "If" they had a choice. For sidearms, its all glock baby.

[tomme boy]

I have owned a bunch of AK's and SKS's and AR's. Guess which one of them has never given me any type of problem. Not one!

While the Garand has hitting power, and that is it. The AR is the ultimate close range combat rifle. And that is what the majority of the raiders would have used.

[MBTcustom]

I disagree, I don't think those guys would like the AR, small bullet, high velocity.

Now an SKS or AK is possible, but I suspect those guys would really freak for Garand's.

US made, bigger bullet, still has speed 8 shots semi auto, and shove in another clip and rock and roll.
Those boys would LOVE the 30-06. "If" they had a choice. For sidearms, its all glock baby.

No way.
I agree with tommy boy.
I mean look at the choice of weapon that Josey Wales used. I grew up on a couple of those pistols, and I would challenge you to name me a less powerful weapon that was used in the civil war.
He chose to strap 44 revolvers all over his body and horse, because while they are anemic in comparrison to other civil war weaponry, nothing beat them for getting more shots down range.
Following that same line of thinking, had he had access to modern weapons, the AR or the AK would have been his choice, and leave not the MAG5-100's setting on the shelf outside the time capsule.

The object of all this firepower was to give the geurilla warrior the ability to charge through enemy ranks with his buddies in a surprise attack laying down as much lead as possible as they cut their swath, after which they would retreat to a position of relative safety and reload all those guns they emptied. (seriously, that must have taken 45 minutes!)
In that day, repeating firearms were just making their debut and this style of fighting was looked down upon, as being murder on the battlefield. They gave no quarter to men who would choose this cowardly and savage method of fighting over lining up like gentlemen sporting their coutries colors and blasting away at eachother with single shot rifles.
In truth, using artilary was a relatively new thing. It too was considered an uncouth and base practice that only seafaring scum would engage in. However, it was eventually considered as an acceptable (barely) and very expensive land war practice.
To put it in modern perspective, it would be like a country willy nilly using small nuclear weapons and pitching in with whatever country they happen to back at the time, giving the people who they were fighting for a very real edge while also making them the most hated people on the planet. Even the countries they had helped would think of them as total scum.
That's the way it was for the guerrilla warriors and the snipers in the civil war. Once the conflict was over, they were not well thought of.

[MtGun44]

Jose Wales was modeled on the border guerillas along the Kansas-Missouri border.
I have a friend that has family stories of great grandfathers hiding the plowing mule
and horses in a brushy ravine while Quantrill's raiders burned their barn and killed all the
livestock they could find. This was the famous Lawrence raid.

Dangerous times for civilians. His great grandmother was forced to feed the raiders, and
they left her alone. The great grandfather, plow mule and horse survived and the family
was able to still farm. Quantrill was shooting the men, boys and livestock. The family still owns
the same land today.

While the fictional Jose Wales seems to have carried mostly the HUGE Colt Walkers with some
1860s and smaller pocket pistols for backup, all my reading indicates they preferred the Colt Navy .36s.
in fact, Jesse James rode with the guerillas and they carried many Colt Navy .36s, up to 8 or 10 if
they could get them. Think of a mobile force sweeping down on a camp of regulars armed
primarily with single shot muzzle loading rifled muskets. The rifles can shoot up to 3 rds
per minute, but being shot at by horsemen at close range would slow that a lot. The
riders had up to 48 to 60 shots available, probably able to fire all in 2-3 minutes, themselves
presenting a moving target. The firepower advantage must have been the first real
"shock and awe" form of attack.

It would seem that 10-20 riders (with 500-1000 shots available in a few minutes time) could
seriously disrupt a group of regulars in camp that were maybe 10 times their size.

Few know that the wives and children of many of the Missouri border guerillas were rounded up and
held in a building in Kansas City. While they were held there, the building collapsed and killed
many of the wives of men that later became famous guerilla leaders, driven by the hatred
of those that killed their wives. So, the basic story of Josy Wales - a guerilla driven by revenge
for his wife, and people being shot and burned out of their farms all along the border by
Federal troops and guerillas, and revenge by Confederate guerillas - is all pretty much historical.

The James brothers, and the Youngers were all involved in this fighting and learned their
skills during the war, turning to bank and train robbing after the war.

Bill

[dtknowles]

.........So you figure 8 pistols that weighed 2.5 lbs each with the hammer on an empty chamber, so that's 40 rounds........

Are you sure the hammer is down on an empty nipple not between the nipples with all the chambers loaded. I can't tell anyone what the practice was at the time but that is how I carry my percussion revolvers, all chambers loaded and the hammer down between two nipples.

Tim

[oldred]

Believe it or not I watched this classic movie, along with "Pale rider", for the FIRST time about two months ago! I was not at all a fan of "Spaghetti" westerns which I had mistakenly associated this movie with, my wife bought it on DVD and after reading the reviews I sat down to watch it. I really enjoyed it! That is a darn good western and I can't believe that I waited so long to watch it, better late than never I suppose!

[Dan Cash]

In addition to what Tim said, most of the Colts and Remingtons had a pin between each chamber that was engaged by the hammer nose (Colt) or a notch that was engaged by the hammer nose (Remington) to make the gun safe with all chambers loaded.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I read in one of the True West magazines that of all the movies that Clint made, this is his favorite. Now here comes the monkey in the wrench. The union army knew that the guerilla fighters were being supplied by there wives and other family members so they rounded up many of these women and locked them in a large two story building. Too many were forced up stairs to a room that was never intended to carry that much weight. The floor gave way, killing eighteen of the women. This precipitated the raid on Lawrence. If you want to see some real guerilla pillage and destruction, follow Sherman's ride across South Carolina and Georgia. Sherman said he thought it was humorous when he saw what some of his men chose to steal. They burned the homes of men whose Grandfathers signed the Declaration Of Independence. Arthur Middleton's for example. They even burned the city of Columbia S.C. I was surprised to find Andrew Jackson's home, The Hermitage was still standing. You may fire when ready Gridley.

[WILCO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-KEnU9TBmQ

[WILCO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TbtTaHrIHI

[WILCO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV7eoIUpWLc

[seaboltm]

Are you sure the hammer is down on an empty nipple not between the nipples with all the chambers loaded. I can't tell anyone what the practice was at the time but that is how I carry my percussion revolvers, all chambers loaded and the hammer down between two nipples.

Tim
My understanding is that carrying with an empty cylinder became common with the introduction of cartridge revolvers. On cartridge revolvers there is no way to allow the hammer to rest between cylinders like the percussion revolvers do. So, I think they would have loaded all six and lowered the hammer between cylinders.

[Powder Burn]

I shall endeavor to persevere.

[bob208]

yes there is a way to carry six in a cartage gun the firing pin is caught between two cartage rims. I carry mine that way. it must have been a common practice. the army issued colt cartages 6 to a pack.

[SSGOldfart]

I though it was a 1851 navy

[Thumbcocker]

There was no shortage of atrocities committed on the Missouri Kansas border during and before the war. Not especially heroic by any means. Cole Younger tried out an Enfield rifle on Union soldiers heading home on leave. They were unarmed and lined up in fornt of a tree to see how many the bullet would penetrate. It was a great time to be a sociopath.

Sherman's march was conducted in accordance with the rules of war as they existed at that time. While much property was destroyed or "appropriated" few non-combatants were harmed. Also few if any people starved in the winter after the march. Sherman realized that the ultimate battlefield was his opponents mind and that is where he fought it. The civilians realized that the confederacy could not defend them and the soldiers at the front were also concerned.

Comparing Sherman to the Missouri raiders in not valid. There is considerable doubt that some of the guerilla's were ever commissioned by the confederacy.

[Don Purcell]

If I knew that I was about to ride into the enemy I would have every chamber loaded.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Thumbcocker, they tell a different story in the south. The guerrillas under Quantrill were never in the in the confederate army. Sherman's march thru the south is considered by military historians to be the first case of total war against a civilian population in modern history. He even said he was going to make Georgia howl. You should tell us about brutal Camp Douglas in your state of Illinois. It's sole purpose was to kill captured confederate soldiers. There were snipers on the walls and when new captives were brought in, if any black man was among them in a grey uniform, he was shot on site. The prison Camp in Elmira new York was just as bad yet all we ever hear about is Andersonville in Georgia. Many died there of course from disease and hunger but so did the southern army as well as much of the southern population. As far as saying what comparison is valid or not. I will decide for myself.

[GLL]

"But it's not for eatin'. It's just for lookin' through."

[Mk42gunner]

Remember, the victor writes the history books.

I have said it before, but I am still amazed that more C&B (and even later cartridge) revolvers did not have lanyard loops on them.

Robert

[Cactus Farmer]

I've read that the Starr revolver was a big favorite of the "bad" guys too. I have an original Starr double action and it is powerful and 6 rounds fired DA is awesome firepower. A pair of them would be "bad news at Black Rock". Belle Starr, The Youngers, Jessie and his crew and other Southern fighters seemed to prefer the old 44DA as their arm of choice. Even at over 150 years old ,the only thing I've done to my Starr is change one worn out nipple. They are a very odd thread and getting the old one out was a chore but it is a surefire pistol now.

It's not a pristine piece but it has the cartouche on the grips so it was issued in the war. It's down here now and perhaps it was liberated from the original owner. Shooting historical firearms is something that everyone should do. I feel connected to those people who fought for what they believed in. May their souls rest in peace.

[Thumbcocker]

No part of my response was addressed to conditons or treatment of POW's.

As to Sherman he was aware that Georgia was the larder and armory of the Confederacy. His goal was to shorten the war and he did. He had a much bvetter overall stratigic grasp than most Confederate generals; especially Lee whos Virgina centric view of the war, refusal to release troops who could have been shuttled to hotspots within the Confederacy, and need to demonstrate cool tactic's resulting in significant losses from a smaller force with little stratigic gains seriously hampered the Confederacy's chances for a political solution. Sherman described Lee defending the front porch while the rest of the house burned to the ground.

Sherman's march through South Carolina, where the war started, was harsh. The fact that when his forces first entered South Carolina they encountered land mines (torpedos in those days) which were considered cowardly and almost a war crime, plus the contemporary view that South Carolina had caused the war did not help matters. One Georgia farmer was quoted as saying to Sherman's men sonething to the effect that he hoped they did at least as much in South Carolina as they did in Georgia.

The march through North Carolina, where there was considerable pro Union or at least anti-secession sentiment was much less destructive.

[Hickory]

Thumbcocker, they tell a different story in the south. The guerrillas under Quantrill were never in the in the confederate army. Sherman's march thru the south is considered by military historians to be the first case of total war against a civilian population in modern history. He even said he was going to make Georgia howl. You should tell us about brutal Camp Douglas in your state of Illinois. It's sole purpose was to kill captured confederate soldiers. There were snipers on the walls and when new captives were brought in, if any black man was among them in a grey uniform, he was shot on site. The prison Camp in Elmira new York was just as bad yet all we ever hear about is Andersonville in Georgia. Many died there of course from disease and hunger but so did the southern army as well as much of the southern population. As far as saying what comparison is valid or not. I will decide for myself.

I don't know who said it or even if I'll get entirely correct, but someone once said; " It is good that war is so horrible, least we come to enjoy it."

[Clay M]

The revolvers he used in that movie are in the museum at Cody,WY. At least they were the last time I was there.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Hickory, Lee said it during the civil war and Patton admitted war was horrible but he did love it so. Sherman said " war is hell ". I have not mentioned that Sheridan on orders from Lincoln carried out the same destruction in Virginia that Sherman did in Georgia and South Carolina. No matter how you rationalize it the union army waged war against the civilian population of the south. The southern army did not do this on the incursions they made into enemy territory. I would also like to say that this is a pointless debate. Neither of us will ever be convinced to change our mind so I don't wish to waste anymore time on it. I do believe that the war was a stupid and tragic waste of property, human lives and left a bitterness that is with us to this day.

[Thumbcocker]

Gopher Slayer:

I fully concur with the last paragraph of your last post. You are obviously an intelligent and well read man. I would be happy to have lunch or burn powder with you. I bet we would have a great time talking about boolits, guns and other fun stuff.

Regards.

[Elkins45]

The object of all this firepower was to give the geurilla warrior the ability to charge through enemy ranks with his buddies in a surprise attack laying down as much lead as possible as they cut their swath, after which they would retreat to a position of relative safety and reload all those guns they emptied. (seriously, that must have taken 45 minutes!)
In that day, repeating firearms were just making their debut and this style of fighting was looked down upon, as being murder on the battlefield. They gave no quarter to men who would choose this cowardly and savage method of fighting over lining up like gentlemen sporting their coutries colors and blasting away at eachother with single shot rifles.
In truth, using artilary was a relatively new thing. It too was considered an uncouth and base practice that only seafaring scum would engage in. However, it was eventually considered as an acceptable (barely) and very expensive land war practice.
To put it in modern perspective, it would be like a country willy nilly using small nuclear weapons and pitching in with whatever country they happen to back at the time, giving the people who they were fighting for a very real edge while also making them the most hated people on the planet. Even the countries they had helped would think of them as total scum.
That's the way it was for the guerrilla warriors and the snipers in the civil war. Once the conflict was over, they were not well thought of.

This seems odd to me, given that the Revolution was fought and won using guerrilla tactics and sniping with rifles.

[doc1876]

we will all agree about war. We also all agree this was a great movie. I fight on both sides, depending upon who's paying. there is pain and suffering on both sides, and nothing civil about war.

[smokeywolf]

I have said many times that I was born 100 years too late. Even taking into account the children conscripted into service during the war of Northern aggression, I still probably would have escaped battle and not been perceived as a potential threat.

smokeywolf

[Glassman66]

Jose Wales was modeled on the border guerillas along the Kansas-Missouri border.
I have a friend that has family stories of great grandfathers hiding the plowing mule
and horses in a brushy ravine while Quantrill's raiders burned their barn and killed all the
livestock they could find. This was the famous Lawrence raid.

Dangerous times for civilians. His great grandmother was forced to feed the raiders, and
they left her alone. The great grandfather, plow mule and horse survived and the family
was able to still farm. Quantrill was shooting the men, boys and livestock. The family still owns
the same land today.

While the fictional Jose Wales seems to have carried mostly the HUGE Colt Walkers with some
1860s and smaller pocket pistols for backup, all my reading indicates they preferred the Colt Navy .36s.
in fact, Jesse James rode with the guerillas and they carried many Colt Navy .36s, up to 8 or 10 if
they could get them. Think of a mobile force sweeping down on a camp of regulars armed
primarily with single shot muzzle loading rifled muskets. The rifles can shoot up to 3 rds
per minute, but being shot at by horsemen at close range would slow that a lot. The
riders had up to 48 to 60 shots available, probably able to fire all in 2-3 minutes, themselves
presenting a moving target. The firepower advantage must have been the first real
"shock and awe" form of attack.

It would seem that 10-20 riders (with 500-1000 shots available in a few minutes time) could
seriously disrupt a group of regulars in camp that were maybe 10 times their size.

Few know that the wives and children of many of the Missouri border guerillas were rounded up and
held in a building in Kansas City. While they were held there, the building collapsed and killed
many of the wives of men that later became famous guerilla leaders, driven by the hatred
of those that killed their wives. So, the basic story of Josy Wales - a guerilla driven by revenge
for his wife, and people being shot and burned out of their farms all along the border by
Federal troops and guerillas, and revenge by Confederate guerillas - is all pretty much historical.

The James brothers, and the Youngers were all involved in this fighting and learned their
skills during the war, turning to bank and train robbing after the war.

Bill

I live in Harrisonville, Mo. and after they sacked Lawrence, General Ewing issued general order #11 and all residents where told to leave town and it was mostly burned down.

Anyone interested can read more here. http://civilwarmissouri.blogspot.com/2008/04/general-order-number-11.html

I love the Josey Whales movie by the way!



Randy

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Thumbcocker, I appreciate your kind remarks. I think it would be a great experience to met you for lunch and a trip to the range. I am sure we have much in common.

[MtGun44]

The comment that "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles" grabbed my attention.

I have to say that this shows a substantial lack of study of the history of the American Revolution. While
the first few battles were fought largely that way, we rapidly adopted the normal army methods and
weapons (muskets) because they were most effective on the battlefield. We still had some militia
with rifles, but at many battles the militia were the weak point and the British regulars knew this and
would fire their first volley and do a bayonet charge towards the militia, knowing that the militia did
not have bayonets, and many had slow-to-load rifles, not the rapid firing muskets. Add in the poor
training of the militias and they would almost always break and run, giving the British the ability
to break through American lines and flank our regulars.

Gradually, the militias were converted to muskets, and became better trained. There is no question that
riflemen and shooting individual officers was an American tactic that was bitterly complained about
by the British officer corps, but we were fighting for our lives and country and not too interested in
their 'sporting rules for European style warfare' - which was at least partly due to the great deal
of intermarriage in the ruling classes, so killing one's cousin just because there was a disagreement
between two kings "just wasn't done". Frankly, we thought it was a great idea, and used the idea
to advantage in a number of battles.

By the time we were really winning, we had pretty much a normal regular army, with all the things
that this brings - muskets, cannon, bayonet charges, and standard tactics of the day of shooting
in ranks. Yes, some battles were turned by careful application of rifle fire, no doubt about it,
but the extreme slowness of firing with rifles of the day left them in the dust most of the time.

I have to sincerely disagree with the statement "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles"
beyond the first battles like Lexington and Concord. Perhaps these very widely reported opening engagements
are so strong in the popular media that these desperation tactics are thought to have applied across the whole
war, but that is quite far from historically correct.

Bill

[MBTcustom]

The comment that "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles" grabbed my attention.

I have to say that this shows a substantial lack of study of the history of the American Revolution. While
the first few battles were fought largely that way, we rapidly adopted the normal army methods and
weapons (muskets) because they were most effective on the battlefield. We still had some militia
with rifles, but at many battles the militia were the weak point and the British regulars knew this and
would fire their first volley and do a bayonet charge towards the militia, knowing that the militia did
not have bayonets, and many had slow-to-load rifles, not the rapid firing muskets. Add in the poor
training of the militias and they would almost always break and run, giving the British the ability
to break through American lines and flank our regulars.

Gradually, the militias were converted to muskets, and became better trained. There is no question that
riflemen and shooting individual officers was an American tactic that was bitterly complained about
by the British officer corps, but we were fighting for our lives and country and not too interested in
their 'sporting rules for European style warfare' - which was at least partly due to the great deal
of intermarriage in the ruling classes, so killing one's cousin just because there was a disagreement
between two kings "just wasn't done". Frankly, we thought it was a great idea, and used the idea
to advantage in a number of battles.

By the time we were really winning, we had pretty much a normal regular army, with all the things
that this brings - muskets, cannon, bayonet charges, and standard tactics of the day of shooting
in ranks. Yes, some battles were turned by careful application of rifle fire, no doubt about it,
but the extreme slowness of firing with rifles of the day left them in the dust most of the time.

I have to sincerely disagree with the statement "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles"
beyond the first battles like Lexington and Concord. Perhaps these very widely reported opening engagements
are so strong in the popular media that these desperation tactics are thought to have applied across the whole
war, but that is quite far from historically correct.

Bill

Interesting. You read about history. LOL! Comes across a little different that way.
I'm no history expert, but that mirrors my understanding.

I really think that's part of the reason the Civil War was so bloody. America was on the cusp of the industrial revolution (at least the groundwork was being laid) and the weaponry had overtaken the battle tactics. Soldiers were still lining up in firing formation with bayonets fixed, but the weapons were much more accurate and devastating than they were just a few years before. Every engagement was a slaughter on both sides.

[TXGunNut]

The revolvers he used in that movie are in the museum at Cody,WY. At least they were the last time I was there.

I didn't see them there in 2007, hope to make another trip soon. I did see a rifle supposedly owned by the man who inspired the movie "Jeremiah Johnson". Last I heard they can keep less than half of their firearms on display but rumor has it it's possible to see the guns in the back rooms if you know who to ask. A friend donated/loaned a few guns awhile back and he got to spend some time in what he called the "petting zoo" with cotton gloves and a curator.

[steamerjames]

My great grandfather was born in Mo in 1850 or so. he used to tell my grandmother(born in 1886) the following story: He was coming home on a horse and what does he see ahead of him but a column of Bloody bill Anderson's men. Said all he could do was to keep riding by them as he passed them the last man shot his hat off for fun.

[waksupi]

I didn't see them there in 2007, hope to make another trip soon. I did see a rifle supposedly owned by the man who inspired the movie "Jeremiah Johnson". Last I heard they can keep less than half of their firearms on display but rumor has it it's possible to see the guns in the back rooms if you know who to ask. A friend donated/loaned a few guns awhile back and he got to spend some time in what he called the "petting zoo" with cotton gloves and a curator.

One of the better short biogaphies has been written by a young man by the name of Skyler Gabel:

Skyler Gabel
Cody
8th Grade

“Liver Eating” Johnston

Liver Eating Johnson was a violent, drunk, mountain of a man who didn’t have a very high reputation but was by no doubt the most fearless fighter and he became a legend. Johnston was built like a brick wall with a towering height over six feet tall and weighing 280 pounds none of which was fat.
There are not very many books written on “Liver Eating” Johnson. There was the fictional movie Jeremiah Johnson and then the fictional Crow Killer: The Saga of Liver Eating Johnson by Raymond Thorpe and Richard Bunker. Finally, I found a knowledgeable researched source that was just published in 2008: The Avenging Fury of the Plains by Dennis John Mclelland Ed.D.
Liver Eating Johnson’s real name was John Garrison Johnston. Johnston was born in Little York, New Jersey in July of 1824 to Isaac and Eliza Garrison. He had 5 sisters and may have also had a brother who died in Virginia during the Civil War. Of Irish or Scottish descent, Johnston’s father was an alcoholic and nearly worked young Johnston to death. The brutality of his father when Johnston was young and helpless may have had a part in making him the adult capable of doing almost any violent act that he became. The apparent rage inside him most of the time shows that his father also toughened him. Isaac would send his son to farms to work off his own debt. Johnston tired of this treatment and began working on a coastal schooner hunting whales. He was then at sea for 12 or 13 years. This is where he developed his powerful frame.
The high sea became boring for Johnston so he enlisted in the U.S. Navy during the Mexican War. It is not known how long Johnston served as a sailor but was obviously not very long because of his temper. Johnston was an impulsive man with a lack of self-control and a very hot temper. When the Lieutenant in charge struck one of his comrades with a sword, Johnston, in a fit of rage, struck him in the neck, which laid him out senseless on the deck of the ship. When the Lieutenant came to, he didn’t know whether lightning or a spar had hit him, but he thought it was Johnston. Because of being suspected of striking a superior officer, he didn’t get any shore leave for 30 days. When he finally was allowed to go to ashore, he never came back and ventured off into the unknown west.
The events described above were taking place when, in the movie Jeremiah Johnson and in the book by Thorpe and Bunker, Johnston’s squaw the Swan and Johnston’s son were supposedly being killed by the Crow. This proves the story was false. After this, came the myth that Johnston sought revenge and went on a rampage against the Crow. Supposedly, this made a Crow chief mad, so he sent 20 of his best warriors after Johnston one at a time. Johnston, they said, killed them all. Johnston’s military record also proves there was no Crow Vendetta against him for that reason. Johnston was actually friends with the Crow most of the time, so it was all a big tall tale. The “Crow Chief” that supposedly induced 20 warriors after Johnston wasn’t even Crow.
Johnston changed his name to Johnston from Garrison because he was now a deserter on the run and would be hung if caught. Johnston then joined the gold rush. He mined in California then (dates unknown) moved east and ended up in Colorado. He later moved up through Wyoming and into southern Montana where he mined, hunted, trapped, wolfed, bootlegged, peddled whiskey, cut wood and worked as a scout for General Miles Nelson and many others. But mainly he fought Indians. This is where he met his friend and partner J.X. Beidler. The two men had two things in common: whiskey and violence. Johnston was with Beidler on and off until he retired. Johnston like his father was an alcoholic despite the other stories from Thorpe and Bunker’s book. It was now when Johnston’s legend began to build.
Johnston was a legend in and after his time, which resulted in many “fairy tales”. Of the many things Johnston did, his nickname proved a lie for he never consumed a human liver. He was tagged with his false name during a battle with the Sioux in 1868. Some claim the battle was in 1869 or 1870, but Johnston himself stated it was in 1868. Johnston and 15 other woodcutters were attacked by the Sioux as they were cutting wood to fuel steamboats on Sioux land. At the end of the battle Johnston stabbed a warrior in the side. When he withdrew his knife, there was a bit of liver remaining on the blade. As a joke Johnston turned to his friends, held up his knife, and then asked if they “wanted a chaw”.
In the winter of 1863 Johnston joined the 1st Division 2nd Colorado Calvary 4th Brigade H Company as a Private/Scout in the Civil War. He lied about his age and said he was 33 when he was really 39. Johnston deserted only 5 days after he enlisted. It is suspected although uncertain that the reason he deserted was to go spend all the money he had been paid on whiskey. Johnston eventually came back to find the Second Colorado Calvary just staying at the fort awaiting orders. Later Johnston was reassigned to the 2nd regiment. In October of 1864 Johnston was shot in the leg and shoulder in the battles of Westport and Newtonia in Missouri. Johnston fought in the war until he was discharged on September 23, 1865.
Johnston returned to Montana territory not sure of anything that lay ahead. He ended up going back to the gold fields and fighting Indians. When he left the gold fields, Johnston spent all the money he owned on whiskey in Fort Benton. After he ran out of money to fuel his drunk, he went back to work as a teamster delivering supplies to miners. Johnston then met up with his old partner J.X. Beidler. Johnston and Beidler set up camp and wood hawked on the Missouri river right in the middle of Sioux land. Wood hawking was dangerous anyways but right in the middle of Sioux land it was almost suicide. They were attacked on a regular basis and soon decided to take a break. Beidler went his own way and Johnston went out alone hunting and trapping for awhile. Johnston was one of a kind to still be hunting and trapping into his 60s. Eventually, Johnston and Beidler were back to their wood hawking camp. Johnston was often seen with Indian skulls on stakes next to the river trying to sell the body parts to tourists passing on the steamboats. Being a wood hawk meant being fearless. In the summer of 68 seven woodcutters were killed.
Johnston returned again to the wilderness to trap and hunt. Sioux would steal Johnston’s beaver traps and pelt, which angered Johnston so he would set up traps for them and outsmart them. Sometimes he would make a tent and make it look like he had left quickly and leave a piece of poisoned meat for the Indians to eat. Once when three Sioux waited inside Johnston’s cabin for his return, he outsmarted them by climbing in a pre-dug tunnel and shooting one of the Indians through the floorboards. Johnston continued this lifestyle for years participating in every big fight there was. Johnston also served as a scout for General Miles several different times participating in catching Chief Joseph and fighting in many more battles. But Johnston, bored with this life, looked for different work.
In 1868 Johnston and J.X. Beidler got together and peddled bootlegged whiskey to Indians until about 1873. There was a territory called Whoop Up Territory, which was one of the most dangerous places that rarely a white man dared to go. Johnston didn’t care. Since the Indians knew him as a bad spirit, he was allowed a free ride across some of the most dangerous hostile lands in the west. During this time Johnston was peddling whiskey under the cover of nightfall and hiding the whiskey during the day. After Johnston now in his 50s gave up the dangerous game of bootlegging whiskey, he guided some trips into the mountains in south central and southeastern Montana since he knew the area better than any man alive. After these trips he went back to scouting for General Miles and many others. In the years to follow Johnston scouts, hunts, traps, and runs a stagecoach line on and off. He became a lawman in Coulson, Montana (now known as Billings) and then joined a Wild West show, which also lead to a dead end so Johnston returned and resumed his job as a lawman in Coulson. He decided he didn’t want to work anymore and was tired of the social life so built a cabin in the mountains where he could live the rest of his life. Johnston built that cabin in Red Lodge where he hoped to never work again. But later he hired on as Sheriff until, having much trouble from his shoulder wound obtained in the civil war, he retired at the age of 70.
Johnston went on one more trip to Tombstone, Arizona. He returned to Red Lodge and almost overnight they say got old. In the last year of his life, 1899, Johnston moved to a veteran’s hospital in Los Angeles, California where he died on January 21, 1900.
Johnston’s body was buried in California for years but with much negotiating and dispute it was moved to Old Trail Town in Cody, WY. Cody is near some of Johnston’s favorite stomping grounds being only 65 miles from Red Lodge, MT. Between Red Lodge and Cody was one of Johnston’s favorite mountain ranges, the Beartooths, where some backwoodsmen today claim to notice the smell of pipe tobacco drifting into camp and they then report seeing the ghostly figure of Johnston leading a pack string down an ancient trail smoking a pipe in the moonlight.

[MBTcustom]

Wow waksupi.
What a riveting story. Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.

[doc1876]

yes, waksupi, that was good reading. I have seen most of this somewhere before, but it was nice of this young man to put it all together.
thanks

[MtGun44]

I agree, goodsteel, the move to the rifled musket meant that you still had the rapid loading
of the musket, but the accuracy was about 3-6" at 100 yds. Suddenly, if you aimed well, there
was no reason to miss a standing man at 100 yds. This was devastating against a line of
troops, and the .58 cal 500+ gr soft lead Minie balls were not going to stop in one man, so
I'm sure multiple woundings happened often.
So the deadliness of the ordinary soldier's weapon took a huge jump, but tactics changed little and
medical care was still very primitive. One final point - EVERYONE THAT WAS SHOT WAS AN
AMERICAN - so the casualties were doubled.

One of the reasons that I like to collect and shoot milsurps is to understand what the real capabilities
were for the various soldiers of different periods. Understanding military tech is crucial to understanding
the real history of warfare. WHY they did some particular battle in a particular way often hinges on what
the weaponry could and could not do.

The border guerillas with their many revolvers were a fairly unique form of shock troops,
enabled by the confluence of young men that were exceptional horsemen, and good with
a pistol, plus the new 6 shot revolvers. Carrying many of them meant one man may have
the firepower of a large portion of a company, at least at short range and for a few minutes.
So now, the guerilla raid was technologically possible, and these troops took advantage of
this new tactic.

Bill

[MtGun44]

Waksupi -

Thanks for the interesting info on Johston. I had heard the name and some legends thrown
into various other stories, but never knew how much was fable and how much was fact,
until now.

Bill

[bob208]

the first pistol he uses. the one right after the raid on his farm. was a 1860 colt converted to cartage as in 72.

[doc1876]

they were all converted, as Hollywood just can't trust actors to load a muzzle loader. Check out the sharps in the "Missouri boat ride" scene, a 1874, not a '59. the walkers were converted, and somewhere on the net is a pic of them and a caption that they were used in True Grit also.

[MBTcustom]

they were all converted, as Hollywood just can't trust actors to load a muzzle loader. Check out the sharps in the "Missouri boat ride" scene, a 1874, not a '59. the walkers were converted, and somewhere on the net is a pic of them and a caption that they were used in True Grit also.

I'll be doggon.
I caught the 1860 typo when I was about 15 years old. Always bugged me.
But I never picked up on the fact that all of his guns were out of time.
Can you imagine the laughs if they made a movie about D-Day and the hero was using an AR-15? LOL!

[Elkins45]

I have to sincerely disagree with the statement "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles"
beyond the first battles like Lexington and Concord. Perhaps these very widely reported opening engagements
are so strong in the popular media that these desperation tactics are thought to have applied across the whole
war, but that is quite far from historically correct.

Bill

Although you make several valid points I will nonetheless stand by my statement, and for this reason: without the successes these tactics provided in the early phases of the war there would have been no later battles. The Revolution would have been just another failed coup we read about in our English history books.

[MtGun44]

Interesting point, and certainly valid - but "won with. . . ." Nah, have to disagree.

"Used to great effectiveness when we had to . . ." or "Managed to start a revolution with . . ."
sure. We won it with pretty much conventional military tactics, and by the grace of
the Compte de Grasse who blocked the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay so that the
British fleet could not relieve Cornwallis where we had trapped him on the Yorktown
peninsula. We hammered them day and night with artillery and they ran out of everything.
Some sniping did occur there to keep their heads down, so it sure played a part.

How many Navies have a ship named for a leading Admiral in a fleet in another country?
We had the DD974, USS Compte de Grasse.

Bill

[Col4570]

Liver Eating Johnson,Waksupi,I enjoyed the account those guys lived on the edge.A sprawling story worthy of a blockbusting movie about an era that has unfortunately gone.

[kootne]

Here is my old family story about those border war days and Colt 6 shooters. My (step) Grandmother was from Arkansas. She had an uncle Dave who had been a soldier in a Confederate unit from Arkansas. At some point they were marching on one of those hot sweaty southern summer days and he got heat exhaustion and passed out by the road. On coming to, he found a couple other men who had the same thing happen. They were double timing up the road to catch up when a soldier on horse back rode up with a revolver. He told them the Colonel had given him his horse and pistol and in front of the whole unit had ordered him the ride back and shoot the stragglers as deserters. So he said," Boys, I'm gonna shoot 3 times into the ground and you 3 had better not ever be seen in Arkansas again", Bang, Bang, Bang."Now git!" It made Dave so mad and scared that he made his way to the first Union line he could find and took the the oath not to bear arms against the Union, they shipped him north and let him go. He went west.

kootne

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Ya gonna pull them pistols or whistle Dixie? Buzzards gotta eat same as the worms. Dyin ain't much of a livin. So many great one liners. I have no idea how many times I have watched that movie.

[shooter93]

Neither the Regular Army nor the sharp shooting Longriflemen won the Revolution.....they both did. Same with the Civil War....regular Armies and Guerilla warfare were the norm. For a great read on Johnson get the book Crowkiller.

[smokeywolf]

Although the pistols were historically incorrect, at least the clothing was somewhat more realistic than many other westerns and "Civil War" movies I've seen.

Dad was a bit of an amateur historian and had many books covering the 1800s. Even as a youngster I would scoff at the movies showing all the cowboys dressed in nicely fitting store-bought shirts and pants, Beaver felt or Nutria cowboy hats that never sagged in the rain and fancy or custom made drop-belts & holsters to carry their Colt SAAs in, in the late 1860s period movie.
From going through dad's books over and over again, I knew that cowboys were poor and usually wore "home-spun" clothing that usually had holes or patches and fit poorly. They oft times wore hat made of wool that would sag when wet from rain. Before the advent of the metallic cartridge, when pistols were quite large, heavy and bulky, lots of westerners carried their pistols in saddle holsters rather than in or on belts.
And, gunfights were almost never enacted in the street of a western town, in a "fair" fight. They were carried out from ambush or utilizing an element of surprise.

I thank waksupi for the education on "liver eatin' Johnson (or Johnston)"

Much to many people's chagrin, Tom Horn was also not the innocent, misunderstood "range detective" as movies and modern stories portray him.

smokeywolf

[MBTcustom]

Much to many people's chagrin, Tom Horn was also not the innocent, misunderstood "range detective" as movies and modern stories portray him.

smokeywolf

Do you feel that Forrest Carter accurately depicted him in the sequel Josey Wales book?

Speaking of Forrest Carter (Asa Earl Carter) you should look up that piece of work. What a colossal douche bag!
I loved reading The education of Little Tree as I did both Josey Wales books but dang! That feller was about as rough as the characters he depicts in his novels.

Cry Geronimo! was also a favorite of mine. That guy sure could pull you into a story.

[smokeywolf]

I didn't read the Josey Wales books, but as I understand it, he was a quasi white supremacist.

I typed a few more blatantly disapproving comments about him, but as many here know, I have a tendency to speak my mind in no uncertain terms and heaven forbid I upset someone who holds a differing opinion.

I deleted my "harshly" worded opinion.

smokeywolf