HR trapdoor opinions

[wolfdog]

My girlfriend shot a bison a couple years ago with her 7mm-08, and now she wants to shoot some bison, elk, deer and long range matches with something more traditional. She wants lots of color case hardening ad dark wood and so we are looking at an HR trapdoor copy, I'm aware that this limits us to level one loads, and I'm aware they did have an issue with popping open that may need to be addressed, other than that, how's the trigger on these guns, how do they shoot and will it suit the needs of the hunter and recreational long range shooter? The one I am looking at has the tank mounted peep site and post front, looks to be in very good condition for about 895.

[pietro]

.


Welcome to the forum !

I would opine that she'll need quite a bit of time to get used to the hammer in her sight picture, the heavier weight, the not-as-nice trigger pull, and the slow lock time - very different from a modern boltgun firing a much flatter-shooting cartridge.


.

[wolfdog]

Oh agreed, she's shot a 1894 marlin for pigs but that's still not the same thing. I'm new I guess, but I was here back in the day, you guys helped me get casting for a marling 336, 35rem. Which I've taken a few animals with now and is one of my favorite guns. Will the trapdoor do the job or should I be looking at a sharps, hi wall, low wall etc, I love the look of the trapdoor and it is a bit nicer on the wallet.

[13Echo]

The H&R Trapdoors are decent rifles and accurate. The problem with "popping open" is due to a loose set screw that locks the thumb piece on the cam. If it is properly in place the breech will stay closed. Easy to check and a little locktite can keep it in place. They are a lot of fun, especially with black powder. $895 can also buy you an original with a good bore.

The 45-70 Springfield with a decent tang sight and good loads can do well at long range but most long range shooters will use a Sharps, Rolling Block, or High wall Winchester. Fixing up an infantry rifle like the issue long range rifle would make it competitive if you can tune the trigger which is not a trivial enterprise. A light weight Officer's model will have rather brutal recoil with full power (level 1) loads and really isn't suitable for long range or silhouette shooting though it makes a dandy woods carbine.

Having said all that I have two trapdoors and they are favorites and get as much or more shooting than the Sharps. The Sharps, however, is my long range shooter.

Jerry Liles

[wolfdog]

This is the exact gun I am looking at. Would love opinions. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=433135073#PIC

[Bullshop]

If you don't win the bid I have an original I would sell for that price.

[M-Tecs]

I have one and five originals. I really like it. Shoots very well and the bore is proper size for jacketed bullets.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190634-H-amp-R-Officers-model-Trap-door

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?98190-H-amp-R-Trapdoor

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?216553-H-amp-R-Trapdoor-Replica-s

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?239314-H-amp-R-Officers-Model-Trapdoor

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?21373-about-to-kick-a-lid-off

[Larry Gibson]

I have 2 of the H&R TDs one of which is also an Officer's Model (as the one for sale is). Both of mine suffered from the pop open syndrome and numerous "fixes" failed to fix the problem. Some later H&R TDs were made with the cam angle incorrect which is the basis of the problem. I know of several OMs that do not have the problem and they all are earlier make than mine. My LBH carbine is also one of the last H&R TDs made. I replaced the breach blocks with original ones (not hard to do but takes some fitting). That solved the problem and both of mine are favorites now and well used. They have standard .458 - .459 groove diameter sizes barrels of modern steel and as mentioned are fine for jacketed bullet loads. The tang rear sight is adjustable for windage but you have to guess at it. I have put marks on mine to make the guessing more consistent. I also have added original M1879 rear sights and have put a Beech front sight on the OM. Accuracy is excellent with both of mine using smokeless powder in particular. That $895 is about the going price these days for an H&R OM in very good to excellent condition.

As to; "will it suit the needs of the hunter and recreational long range shooter?"

Might remember the M1973 Springfield rifles and carbines made the West safe for the M1873 Winchester to "win".

Larry Gibson

113061

[Scharfschuetze]

I bought one in 1971 during H&R's 100th year anniversary 1871-1971. No telling how many rounds I've put through it now, but it continues to shoot very well. Larry and I have enjoyed several fine days at the range dueling offhand on small and distant rocks in the burm with our OMs. Mine shoots everything pretty well due to the previously reported .458 bore diameter. I've never had an issue with the breach block popping out of battery, but I don't load any hotter than factory ammo for it. On average, it is consistently more accurate than my 1895 Marlin in 45/70.

I bought my son one a while back and it is also a shooter without any issues. Larry's with the original breech blocks are the cat's meow.

[M-Tecs]

The tang rear sight is adjustable for windage but you have to guess at it. I have put marks on mine to make the guessing more consistent. I also have added original M1879 rear sights

Larry is correct on the tang. I gave bad info on the lack of windage adjustment. Like Larry I added an original M1879 rear sight to mine. I purchased mine used and it appears that the original owner modified it not to adjust for windage:killingpc

[wolfdog]

Good to know, it appears these guns like heavy 500 grn bullets, I will be doing almost exclusively level 1 smokeless loads, starting with trailboss and probably venturing to 4064 as that is one of my favorite powders. (or benchmark). Currently I cast for 357mag, 38spl and 35 rem. All of these guns seem to do just fine for hunting and defensive loads with pure WW alloy, am I going to have to go to a 50/50 ww/pb mix for this gun or since it's of more modern design and measurements, will a simple air cooled WW bullet be ok?

[Larry Gibson]

The original TD rifles with the larger bores do prefer the 500 gr bullets for better long range accuracy. However, the H&R, especially the OM, with their modern industry standard bores do very well with 395 - 415 gr bullets at longer ranges as they do not depend on obturation of the bullet. I shoot lots of .458 - .4615 sized Lee 459-405-HB, Lyman 457124 and 457483s in my OM out to 1000 yards. A friend of mine visited last year and at just under 800 yards he was on a 2' rock with the 3rd shot from a prone position with the M1879 rear sight. He bought his own H&R OM shortly after and I put a M1879 rear sight on it for him.

I load those 405 +/- gr bullets to 1300 - 1350 fps. The load is zeroed to the sight settings of the M1879 rear sight. I prefer is the "R" (rifle) rear sight. Just have to remember to use the ".8 rule" with the shorter barrel/sight radius and that rear sight. "The .8 rule" is the range to the target X .8 for the rear sight range setting.

Larry Gibson

[smkummer]

Love my officers model that I bought about 4 years ago at National Gun Day in Lousville for $550. I added the pedersoli wood pistol grip available through Dixie for $55. Currently my favorite load is Lyman's 350 FP bullet that was made for the 45-75 cartridge with a charge of 14.6 grains Unique giving me 1300 FPS. Other powders work including trail boss and 5744 but cost more. The older lyman loading manuals show this is safe for trapdoors. I don't size the bullets and they are water dropped wheel weight alloy. This load bangs a 10" metal AR500 steel plate at 200 yards. It is dead on. I have a leather lace on recoil pad that almost looks period and I am not complaining about recoil target shooting. Target shooters will complain about recoil long before hunters, as hunting involves sitting in and one or 2 shots the day of the hunt. I usually shoot about 25 rounds per sitting until I get bored hitting the target every time, its that accurate with my load combination. My trigger is a little heavy (good for hunting) but no creep. My action has never popped open. I believe that price is at the top end for these especially if the breach block needs work but I would rather have a US made trapdoor than an import. Of course I am enjoying mine too much to sell even at that price. I just cast and loaded another 50 rounds for this fine shooter.

[wolfdog]

I know I'm late to update this thread, but I hope it was worth it. My first load was 28grns of H4198 with a lee 405grn flat nose. I'm casting this bullet out of pure WW alloy, air cooling, then tumble lubing with LLA. I should be getting around 1200fps and the "as dropped" weight is 415grns. I'm getting no leading and accuracy hovers between 1-2" at 100 yards. With most 3 shot groups being in the 1" range. I did load one round of a starting load of imr4064 just to show my GF (who's gun this is) what the upper end was capable of. Recoil was brisk but the bullet went into previous groups without complaint. My only issue, is that the tang sight doesn't have clicks or marks for elevation so that we can return to zero. The sight picture is great and the GF loves the color case hardening so we won't be replacing the sight, any way to make it's adjustments repeatable other than a ruler/caliper and notes?
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg296/wolfsasleep/Guns/trapdoor1_zpsb82ba850.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg296/wolfsasleep/Guns/20140829_082844_zps77b82ba7.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg296/wolfsasleep/Guns/20140829_082832_zpsd874e1f8.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg296/wolfsasleep/Guns/20140829_082813_zps974e51c3.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg296/wolfsasleep/Guns/20140829_082858_zps5d5efa82.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg296/wolfsasleep/Guns/100yardtrapdoor_zps7aab802a.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg296/wolfsasleep/Guns/20140829_200629_zps818b36b3.jpg

[Scharfschuetze]

Good news about the new rifle!

I shoot my H&R Trapdoor OM more than I do my original Trapdoors and it is, as you note, a fun rifle at the range. I bought it in 1971 and it's still a shootin' and shootin' well.

There were only 10,000 Officer Model H&Rs made. The first 1,000 sold for $300.00, 1,001 to 2,500 (I think) went for $250.00 and 2,501 to 10,000 went for $200.00 dollars in 1971.

There were a few infantry models made as well as cavalry carbines and a Little Big Horn commemorative cavalry carbine; all following the introduction of the OM during H&R's centinial (1871 to 1971).

[wolfdog]

Nifty, is ours the officers model or the cavalry carbine and how do we tell? Also is there any way to find out which one of the 10k ours is (assuming it's the officers model) via the serial number? I got mine for 840 shipped, lol that's a long way from the 250 starting price. Any way to keep the rear sight and still have a repeatable way to adjust it for range?

[M-Tecs]

The officer model has the engraving,rear sight and wooden ramrod as shown in the pics above.

Pics of cavalry models

http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=3213035


http://www.gunsamerica.com/918680214/H_R_1873_CAVALRY_MODEL_NEW.htm

Little Bighorn Commemorative carbines pics post #11
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?115224-Model-1871-1971-h-amp-r-centennial-commemorative-officers-rifle

and here http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8343492

model info here

http://www.bluebookofgunvalues.com/Gun_Values/Manufacturers/HARRINGTON_RICHARDSON_INC/Categories/HARRINGTON_RICHARDSON_INC_COMMEMORATIVES/Models/HARRINGTON_RICHARDSON_INC_COMMEMORATIVES_Custer_Me morial_Issue_Officers_Model?id=HARRINGTON_RICHARDS ON_INC_COMMEMORATIVES_Custer_Memorial_Issue_Office rs_Model

[wolfdog]

Ok so mine is an officers model for sure. Any reason to go beyond my 1200fps starting load in this, will an extra 150fps do much for me?

[Larry Gibson]

If your rifle doesn't have the M1873 or M1879 rear sight and you are just using the "tang" rear sight the extra fps are a moot point.

Larry Gibson

[M-Tecs]

My favorite load is 10 grains of Unique under a 385 grain cast. You can take the TD's up to 28,000 PSI but with heavier bullets it lets you know that you pulled the trigger. If I was going to shoot a Buffalo yes but far more fun with lighter loads.

[Larry Gibson]

wolfdog

Get a M1903 sight adjustment repro from Vishay (?). It works fine on the H&R OM's rear tang sight. Very accurate and repeatable setting for elevation. A small scribe on the windage slide for "zero" works for me.

Larry Gibson

115089

[wolfdog]

looks cool, are they expensive, where do you get them? I assume you have to loosen the nut to use them, so windage would be a concern unless scribed as you describe correct?

[M-Tecs]

Larry

I had been on the fence as to getting one for my 03/Buffington. Never thought of using it on the OM

Ray-Vin '03 Springfield Sight Micrometer

http://ray-vin.com/gunsight/03mike.htm

[Larry Gibson]

That's the place! My bad on the brain fade........they work great, are a precision instrument and are worth the money.

Larry Gibson