Seriously considering making ammunition for sale

[AbitNutz]

I'm retired now and I have nothing but time. I have all the basic equipment, or will have. I'm thinking about getting a federal firearms licence for manufacturing ammo. My primary outlet would be gunshows and the endless flee market; no gun shops or 3rd party retailers. Just me or my shockingly attractive daughters (No kidding. They're model material.) with a table. There are a ton of gun shows around here every weekend. My wife is an accountant so the taxes and paperwork would be her problem. Happy retirement dear!

I read an article about the do's and don'ts of being successful at this. I have an almost inexhaustible supply of linotype and lead. I can make the lube cheap enough. I think my basic hook would be competitive pricing and offering hollow point lead bullets. I've been to all the gunshows and no one offers lead hollow points. Maybe no one would care but if they were the same price...I would choose the hollow point. I would make 9mm, 357 magnum and 45 automatic. I would have to figure how to get primers and powder at wholesale prices. Packaging would be something that would have to be thought out. I don't like the idea of selling ammo in baggies. I'm sure there are plenty of pitfalls but it seems quite do-able...at least in my head.

If it became too much or was a failure, I could just quit. My income would in no way relies on this so I could do it at a really skinny cost. Just a thought....

[shooterbob]

I just did what your talking about and the regs are confusing as all get out. If you register as a mfg , Atf says you must register with itar.which is 2500.00 per yr. Plus you have to have insurance to do gun shows at another 2500.00 yr. You can just just do a LLC but can be risky. Was told by Atf inspector that doing reloads requires no license at all and no itar registration. But I'm waiting on clarification of the term reloads or handloads to make sure of the legality since I would like to make from new brass as well. All in all its a pita to deal with, just cover your butt from a lawsuit. Oh and insurance wont insure if casting on premises. At least the company I talked to which was a big one for gun insurance and ammo wouldn't.

[AbitNutz]

There must be a way to do this....too many people are doing it. It looks to me that all you have to do about ITAR is swear you're not going to export your product. Maybe I could put it all in my brother-in-laws name. He doesn't work and never has and if he went to jail it would be a vacation for us and him.

[Driver man]

Good on ya. I would just do it .Find out what needs to be done legal wise and make the start. Look forward to reading your posts. you will always find people looking for reasons not to do something, Its good to read about the opposite.

[AbitNutz]

I looked at the FFL for ammo manufacture and while it's not written at the 5th grade level, it doesn't look too daunting. I would set up an LLC for the munificent sum of $250. Insurance may be another matter. There must be someone out there that would do it for less than a kings ransom or as you say, rely on as iron clad an LLC as I could get crafted. My brother is an attorney who shoots. So he would get free ammo for services. Of course, if I blew him up it would would be a problem, freakin hilarious but still a problem.

I've explored cutting a deal with the state shooting range; they seem open to it. You talk about barrels of brass! They just sell all the brass for scrap. I would have to beat that price and take it all. That may or may not be economical. Or course, sorting though it would be a chore. I'm not interested in loading 223 or 762x39. They're too cheap to compete with. Plus that would require a significant investment and I would have to use jacketed bullets, driving up the costs even more.

Also, I would have to put up a disclaimer and give up the lucrative Glock market as they seem to shoot lead as well as well as pigs fly.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Buddy of mine's been loading commercial cast lead bullets in his glock 23 for at least a decade now. His 23 is bone stock, no aftermarket barrel. I don't think it's rocket science.

[bedbugbilly]

Don't forget "liability insurance" - one screw up and a law suit could cost you everything you have.

Sure - there a lot of folks out there who "fly by the seat of their pants" and figure they can get by without such things. Sort of like fire insurance . . . you don't need it until you have a fire. I was self-employed most of my life and one of the biggest headaches I had was insurance. In today's world, where people are "law suit happy" - you can't afford to be without it. And trust me, it doesn't come cheap . . if you can find a carrier.

I don't mean to be a "wet blanket" . . . but don't get in to something without doing your homework on what you need and what hoops you need to jump through in terms of licenses, insurances, etc. You need to develop a business plan that is realistic and not something that, based on "guessing" shows that you'll succeed when you need to be on the conservative side in making decisions.

I don't know what the Feds require but from what reading I've done on some of the forums in regards to folks getting in to this, the regulations are somewhat "cloudy". . . . you need to get exact clarification from the agencies that overlook these regs to get clear and concise answers . . . not second or third hand opinions off of the internet. Fees, insurance,etc are a part of every business venture and it takes a lot of production to cover those ongoing costs before you can even think of drawing any true income off of the venture.

[jmorris]

I don't think casting and reloading for 9mm and 45 acp would be the best choice unless you plan to invest a lot of money or not make much product/profit.Magma's "production" casters are over $11,000 now and Camdex machines for loading are north of $25,000.If your going to do it by hand I would go after "special" bullets and rounds. If you have limited production at least make the most profitable projectiles/ ammunition you can.

[ReloaderFred]

You'll need the Class 6 FFL, ITAR registration, and a boatload of insurance. This has been discussed many times on this, and about every other, forum. It's a big commitment in both money and time.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Wayne Smith]

And to answer one of your questions when you get your FFL06, not Class Six, you will be on the mailing lists of wholesalers. The issue with new brass vs reloading is that it is on the brass you pay excise tax. Once it is paid once it doesn't have to be paid again. If you use new brass set aside - I think - 6% for the tax man.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am going to throw a big bucket of Water on this fire.

I applaud your enthusiasm!

But this is a financial loser big time. T

The cost to get up and running on a commercial production level are significant.

The Liability is Astronomical !!!

Just doing Specialty Loadings are going to result in very small volume of sales which isn't going to make much money, and you will find quickly that people are always going to want something slightly differently than what you are offering.

There are several people here who sell brass, which has none of the Liability issues of loaded ammo. I doubt any of them are getting rich doing it. As a hobby fine.

Selling live ammo is not for the small guys.

I have been to and outfit in Northern CA that Reloads ammo on a large scale and sells at every Gun Show in CA, AZ and OR every week as well as on the internet.

They have a 20,000 SF building full of equipment and a hundred people working for them. An Endless supply of Brass bought from EVERY Sheriff and Police Dept. in CA. and a separate outfit making boolits exclusively for them. They produce a Million Rounds of Pistol and AR Ammo a DAY! You can't hear yourself think in their building with all the machinery running and it runs 24/7!

That is who you're competing with.

I am not trying to discourage your creativity. I am trying to tell you this is a big loser. OK to look, just don't touch.

Randy

[M-Tecs]

I know a couple for people doing it on the scale you are looking at. They are making money but neither one of them are carrying insurance. One has nothing to lose but the other is taking a huge risk.

[Bayou52]

As soon as there is one mishap, a gun blowing up, a lost eye, facial scarring, or even worse, NO MATTER what caused it, if your ammo was being used at the time, you'll be sued big time. Even if you ultimately win, you'll likely lose. You will need multiple millions of dollars of liability coverage to engage in this activity.

Under the laws of somee states, ammunition manufacturing may be classified as an "ultra-hazardous" activity for third party liability purposes.....

Just some words of extreme caution......

Bayou

[bullet maker 57]

You might also consider what your town says about powder storage and reloading ammo for sale. I know where I am it is not allowed by town ordinance. If you decide to procede, I wish you good luck.


Pete

[462]

Like others have mentioned, I don't want to rain on your parade, but do you really want the likes of Eric Holder or a Janet Reno being a part of your life? I'm not very familiar with ITAR, but imagine the U. N. is involved.

Don't be in a rush to do this. Talk to other commercial reloaders. Talk to a lawyer. Talk to your local fire department.

Good luck.

[bangerjim]

Lots of time on our hands? You will have even more once you land in the clink for not having all the licenses bought, I's dotted, and T's crossed.

Find another hobby! Woodworking is fun and you do not need a fed license for a table saw and a router!

I would NEVER attempt to make ammo for a profit. Liability $$$$ is just too great. I do not know of anyone I associate with that would even consider buying 2nd party ammo.......no how cheap it is.....even if it was in baggies!


Good luck in your retirement. Live long and prosper.......just not behind bars! (mabe IN bars!?!?!?)

bangerjim

[AbitNutz]

Man you guys are acting like I'm making atomic bombs. I see plenty of folks selling ammo at gun shows that are clearly not from Winchester or Remington and they sure don't have any problem selling out. The cost of a license is $30. ITAR only applies if you intend to export...just like anything else. I was in the computer industry years and the rules are the same. The cost of a license to manufacture is $30.

The pitfalls come in the form of taxes, state, local and federal. There is the issue of liability and I will do my due diligence in that regard. Certainly an LLC will be required. As far as equipment investment, I have it all. Nothing more to acquire except consumables, powder, primers, cases and bullets and I'm making the bullets. I have a lifetime supply of linotype and lead. Lube is something I'll have to formulate and mix up myself. Decent packing will be an issue. I've no intention of selling ammo in baggies.

As far as profits go, I don't expect to get rich, just finance my shooting habit. Considering the thirst for ammo I expect that I will have a decent market. Selling my wares at gun shows relieves me of the re-seller overhead. My hook will be that all my ammo will be lead cast hollow points. That's something I've not seen. I think it will have good appeal in the 9mm, 357 mag and 45 auto area.

If it doesn't work, well I guess I'll just have a bunch more ammo to shoot. Failure is an option and it's not something that will I'm too concerned about. I will seek out a lawyer's advice who is well versed in this kind of law.

[Tom_in_AZ]

Probably easier to sell cast bullets. Good luck if you decide to go do the whole thing!

[flyingmonkey35]

Why not start off small and just try and sell the cast HP boolits.

You won't need any of the fancy licenses or insurance.

Cast a few thousand or so. Next gun show ask / pay a vendor to sell them for you. See if there's a market at all.

Good luck

[AbitNutz]

Why not start off small and just try and sell the cast HP boolits.

You won't need any of the fancy licenses or insurance.

Cast a few thousand or so. Next gun show ask / pay a vendor to sell them for you. See if there's a market at all.

Good luck

That's a really constructive comment that I think I will try

[462]

^^^ To be perfectly legal, you'd still need the 06 license to sell your cast boolits to any one, including a gun show vendor.

I know, too, that the ATF has started to crack down on the ITAR requirement, when it comes to manufacturing ammo and/or guns. Cast boolits are considered to be ammo, under the ITAR definition of ammo.

Very thorough research is required.

[flyingmonkey35]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/general.html#firearms-relief-alternates


Yes and no.

Q: What kinds of ammunition are covered by theGCA?

Ammunition includes cartridge cases, primers, bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm.

Items NOT covered include blank ammunition, tear gas ammunition, pellets and nonmetallic shotgun hulls without primers.

Generally, no records are required for ammunition transactions. However, information about the disposition of armor piercing ammunition is required to be entered into a record by importers, manufacturers, and collectors.

A license is not required for dealers in ammunition only.

[18*U.S.C.*921(a)(17) and 922(b)(5), 27*CFR*478.11 and 478.125]

[emoji205]

[GRUMPA]

I was considering doing something like that. But after you really dive into the matter you come to a realization that your the person doing all the work and getting less in return than the ones making the rules.

[Sgtonory]

I say do what you want. You are a free person.

[462]

There is a difference between being a dealer/retailer of ammunition and a manufacturer of ammunition. No federal license is needed to sell ammunition, but one is required to manufacture it, including cast bullets.

Somewhere on the forum are links to ITAR regulations that spell out that its license is required for the manufacture of cast bullets.

[petroid]

Also, I would have to put up a disclaimer and give up the lucrative Glock market as they seem to shoot lead as well as well as pigs fly.

If your were to involve yourself in the Powder Coating aspect of cast boolits you wouldn't be giving anything up to the Glocks. And you could sell just the bullets.

[Silverboolit]

I applaud your enthusiasm for this. Remember, your liability lasts for as long as the loaded round(s) exist. That may be 1 day or 10 years before it is fired. What happens if someone down the road has your ammo and fires it in a weapon not designed for it? Unlikely, but I would not want that over my head.

[silverado]

Just so you know... I am going to buy your boolits, then substitute titegroup for winchester 296, and it will be your fault entirely when I lose a hand.

[TES]

wow...a lot of bad info here...I am an 06 ffl...

1. if you make any component for ammo or reloads ITAR tax /fee is mandatory.
2. Insurance is not that expensive for a start up.
3. take your time...if you have not loaded and shot a few ...maybe 100,000 rounds that you have loaded you are a complete noob and have no business doing this.
4. You are not going to be able to find enough of the components that you need ...just starting out...to complete your orders in this current drought. Even if you had a person hired and all that they do is surf the web you will not find enough of what you need to make ammo on a reliable enough basis to make a living from this. I am involved with two buyers groups and have a hard time.
5.If this is something you enjoy doing as a hobby .....do not make it your job.....you will not be happy doing it.

[shooterbob]

wow...a lot of bad info here...I am an 06 ffl...

1. if you make any component for ammo or reloads ITAR tax /fee is mandatory.
2. Insurance is not that expensive for a start up.
3. take your time...if you have not loaded and shot a few ...maybe 100,000 rounds that you have loaded you are a complete noob and have no business doing this.
4. You are not going to be able to find enough of the components that you need ...just starting out...to complete your orders in this current drought. Even if you had a person hired and all that they do is surf the web you will not find enough of what you need to make ammo on a reliable enough basis to make a living from this. I am involved with two buyers groups and have a hard time.
5.If this is something you enjoy doing as a hobby .....do not make it your job.....you will not be happy doing it.

As I posted atf just told me reloads require no licence at all. As long as I'm using the customers brass, there is no excise tax and Itar is not required at all as well. This was from a field inspector in the Houston office. Not an office clerk. I am doing small potatoes, supplying my home area with ammo not large internet orders. If I sell 3 boxes a day that's a good day for me. Which is what the original poster is looking to do I'm guessing. To the OP, Call your local atf office and ask to speak to a field inspector and ask them the questions you need answered. As to materials,well one lb of powder is more than I use in a week most days, so I don't think I will have an issue getting supplies lol.

[AbitNutz]

Sorry for the long post but here is why I think I can make a go of this:

Obtaining most components has been taken care of. I have a deal set up with the local state range that is 3-1/2 miles from my house. They'll sell me all the brass as long as I take it all and meet what the scrapper pays, which is next to nothing. Sorting through and cleaning will be the biggest job. One summer weekend's brass from that range is is more brass than you can imagine.

Bullets are also taken care of and is also my hook. I'm going to cast my own using my Master Caster. I have a lifetime supply of linotype (I used to work at a newspaper) and lead that I have been collecting. The bullets will be hollow points made from Magma molds that have been modified by Erik at Hollow Point Mold Service. I've seen plenty of lead bullets for sale but few, if any hollow points.

I'm only going to do a few handgun calibers, 9mm, 357 magnum and 45 auto. I may add 40 S&W at a later date if it looks like there is demand. The only components I would have to buy are powder, primer and bullet lube. While 9mm is by far the most popular, 357 magnum people are the most desperate due to the high cost and scarcity.

I have all the equipment, Dillon 650 with a bullet feeder for 357/9mm and a 650 without a bullet feeder for 45, Magma Master Caster and an air powder Star lubrisizer. I would make my own bullet lube using something like felix lube or red's formula, messy by low cost. I will have to obtain powder and primers.

I already have it all set up in my reloading area in a separate steel building where I keep the cars I work/tinker with. It's not a big area but it has heat, air, 220v, compressed air from my garage and pretty good ventilation.

I'm not talking about making enough ammo to supply the US military. Just enough to sell at the local guns shows. Nor do I intend to to live off this. I'm retired with a good income. All I want to do is cover my costs and support my shooting habit. I'll be flying way under the radar. The truth, according to the local ATF, is that no one cares about a mom and pop operation like I presented to him.

The cost for a license to manufacture is $30 and another $250 to form an LLC. My wife is/was an accountant so she is painfully familiar with keeping the books as well as dealing with all the small business requirements. I started calling around for liability insurance and even that doesn't seem horrendous.

I'm quite sure that I could find a million reasons and regulations not to do this but my particular situation seems made for it. If I had to go out and buy all the equipment, components, find a location and hire an accountant...there would be no way but I don't. It's all built in or taken care of. I even have a built in sales staff. I have four incredibly attractive daughters that have volunteered to help out poor old dad. If it turns out to be a pain I'll just quit, no harm, no foul. The most I can be left holding the bag with is a couple of cases of powder, primers a vat of bullet lube and a pissed off wife and she's pissed off most of the time anyway.

[Magana559]

Go for it!

[GhostHawk]

My only concern would be the Liability insurance. Without it if there is a problem or accident (Wouldn't have to be your mistake)
You could lose all you have. Or you could be forced to spend all you have in legal fee's to prevent someone from taking it.

Good luck!

[AbitNutz]

I'm looking at two precautions for that. One is forming an LLC and having the protection of personal assets by using a corporation. Second is actually obtaining liability insurance against such a ghastly event. I called a couple of companies and all in all it seemed quite reasonable.

Protection from loonies is always a problem but lets face it. I'm not Dupont and clearly don't have those deep pockets some unscrupulous folks would like to put their hands in.

Packaging is going to be a problem. You wouldn't believe what a plain old box costs.

[Wayne Smith]

Make sure your liability insurance has a 'tail'. That is, that your liability extends far beyond the time you quit, you don't want to keep paying. That tail means your liability is covered for acts done while you were covered.

[AbitNutz]

Make sure your liability insurance has a 'tail'. That is, that your liability extends far beyond the time you quit, you don't want to keep paying. That tail means your liability is covered for acts done while you were covered.

Ah! Once again, something I hadn't thought of...

[jmorris]

I have all the equipment, Dillon 650 with a bullet feeder for 357/9mm and a 650 without a bullet feeder

That is a good start for a home bench but I wouldn't want to go into business with them, unless I was just looking for something to do to take up spare time.


This is a photo of one of the "manual" rooms at a business that I am building some tumblers for.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/IMG_20140424_192918_zps1e5b242b.jpg

[AbitNutz]

I'm not intent in creating an empire. Local gun shows are my target. When I sell out, I clear the table, send my daughter(s) on their way and l "elvis has left the building". I believe I can be price competitive, have something most others don't; hollow points and a better looking staff :). I'm only looking to cover my costs and finance my shooting addiction. My labor is free, my overhead is pretty much zero, my lead is free, the brass is almost free. I'm sure I'll pay more for powder and primers than those that buy them by the brage load. Hopefully, I won't be at too much of a disadvantage.

Clearly I'm no threat to mega outfits. If only for the fact I'm not going to have a 1000 boxes to sell. If I can charge a little less, perhaps I can sell out before they know I was there.

[claudesapp]

I have my 01 FFL and at one point considered loading ammo, and dropped the idea. I kind of equate ATF compliance with IRS compliance - it is a lot easier to be out of compliance than in compliance it seems, and the rules are a quagmire and seem to always be open to interpretation. The difference between the ATF and IRS is that I've found my ATF contacts to be VERY helpful and looking out for me, the IRS not so much.

After reading this thread I think the best route might be the cast HP bullet business, gives you something to do/sell and lifts a whole mess of complexity from your plan initially.

[ReloaderFred]

Whether you want to believe it or not, ITAR is required for selling bullets you manufacture, whether cast or jacketed. If you just sell bullets someone else had made, you don't need ITAR, but to sell your own product, you do. This is direct from the director of the Portland, OR, ATF office. He also provided the forms and copies of the law, which I suggest you read thoroughly. Intent to sell outside the country has nothing to do with ITAR, only the product.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you are getting all of your Local Police Range's brass,, why not sell the reloaded ammo back to them?

That way you'd only have one customer to please.

Also if you are setting up for pistol rounds then you need to include .40 S&W from the start. Most police are using that round nowadays.

Also please realize that none of us are saying you can't do this,, we are saying you shouldn't do this. For all of the above reasons. I will include some reality about money versus time spent to follow.

I have ran a production machine shop for the last 30 years.

I have probably pulled handles on machines a million plus times.

How many rounds of ammo have you loaded in your life? a million? It is the exact same type of work.

In order to do meaningful production you must keep the machine running at all costs. Every minute you are not pulling the handle is a minute of production you have lost, and you can't get it back. The only way to multiply production is with more machines and more people to run them or Automate.

Everytime you have to make an adjustment to a set up, fill the Powder, Primers, Boolits, change overs to different calibers, you lose time and production. and ultimately $.

If you are looking at selling a gun shows you will have to show up with sufficient product to not run out during the first 4 hours of the show. The outfits I see at CA guns shows are showing up with 1,000's and thousands of each popular caliber . There are lines a mile long around their tables. They don't run out until late Sunday afternoon and bring their product in Semi Trailers! Oh, and you have to sell for less than they do, or people will just stand in line.

On your 650 you should be able to produce 500 rounds an hour average under Ideal Circumstances. Except you are making boolits too, so cut that in half. That's 2,000 rounds per 8 hour day under Ideal Circumstances.

Do you have people that can help you run the machine? It has to keep running for you to make quota.

Ideal Circumstances DO NOT Exist! There is always something to stop the machine,,,and if you are my age you will be doing good to stand in front of that machine for 30 min at a time. I personally load in 15 minute or 100 round volleys and take a break between rounds. But I am only supporting my shooting habit.

This all comes down to the Realistic amount of product per hour you can produce.

It is all about the numbers, because rounds per hour less overhead equals $ per hour. At say $25 for 100 9mm's x 20 = 2000 rounds per day, or $500 per day less components and Whatever your time is worth and overhead (electricity, a place to do it, and all the in sundry things that contribute to the cost of producing that product or go into doing anything as a business.) or a hobby, since nothing is free.

IN order to keep any business afloat, IE: just above break even,,, you MUST sell product at 110-120% above the all inclusive cost to produce the product.

If you can't produce and sell at or above these numbers you will fail... Period!!!

Been there, done that. It doesn't matter how low your expectations are, they will not be met below that level.

You say you just want to support your shooting habit, and this is fine.

But how much are you really willing to work to support that habit? Because if this businesses only reward is supporting your shooting habit then you probably won't be shootin' very much.

What you are proposing is a lot of work for little reward, and I will submit that you aren't going to have time for your shooting hobby.

My whole point of spending an hour to write this post is to make you aware that there is ALOT more to this than meets the eye, and when you have a good realistic look at the whole picture you will probably agree with me. Also the Liability issues, whereas very real, are the least of your worries. Making the numbers work are the real test,,, and they are the reason why the rest of us don't do it!

Randy

[TES]

Do not forget inspection times, counting, packaging as well as final cleaning to get all the bullets you made nice and shiny again. This takes twice as long as the actual manufacturing does. I spend 2/3 of my time with the finishing aspect to make sure my ammo is as good as it can get.

[KohlerK91]

I think you guys are all missing what the OP is saying.

HE IS RETIRED!!!!!

Sounds to me he is looking for something to do. Not trying to compete with 11 Dillon 1050's in a row or some guy with a room full of Camdex machines making 1,000,000 rounds a month.

When you load your first box of ammo for sale, let me know I will buy it from you.

[TES]

Kohler...the OP seems to think it is ok to make bullets and relaod ammo on a small scale. What we are trying to explain/ help with is that if he makes 1 cast bullet and sells it he is going to pay out of pocket around 4k. Then everything after that is profit. Small scale does not work.

[Safeshot]

Selling cast bullets, especially the HP's, does sound like a good start. You might even make them in the sizes that most bullet casters that use their own cast bullets, want to use, (larger than most standard commercial cast bullets). You might consider offering larger "two diameter" expanding plugs with a well designed flare as well.

[denul]

AbitNutz-

I just spent 2 hours casting up 20 pounds of NOE's 190 gr HP bullets from his excellent 4 cavity RG mold, and I could not get this thread out of my mind. I could not have cast with any of these (or Mihec's)multicavity HP molds had they not taken the risk to fill a perceived need for group buys several years back. We are all the better for it. I believe that NOE stands for "Night Owl Enterprises" - an apt description of what most enterpreneurs willingly accept and endure to succeed.

You have submitted a business plan to this website for review, and gotten far more negative than positive responses.

I believe that John Browning and his brothers would have received similar responses to their idea of a new rifle, given the dominance of Winchester and Remington of that market in the 1880's. Imagine the mad audacity of Bill Ruger and Alexander Sturm trying to sell a new .22 pistol with Colt,Smith and Wesson, and others, already covering that market, in the late 1940's and early 1950's.

Like most of my generation, I was raised to believe that you never try to get ahead because you might fail. When a childhood friend sold everthing to begin an ice cream enterprise, the entire community was down about him throwing away a good job, for something that already been done by others, and wondering how his wife felt that he would gamble it all against all the health department regulations, and the lawsuits when someone got sick eating his product and so on. When a few years later it was a multimillion dollar business, employing more than a few of those doubters - well,then they ALL had known he could do it all along.

Most people fear an unknown future and possible failure, more than they trust a known present and possible success; hence enterpreneurs will always be that minority which pleasantly improves, disproves, and surprises,the majority.

You plan has a far greater chance of success than my friend's, because you have precisely identified your niche market - people who want cast HP ammunition but don't want to reload it. I don't know or care why most of my cast ammo is HP. I don't hunt, don't carry these for self defense, and don't compete in matches.I don't have to have a reason to like cast HP, I just do. I am confident that there are others who would neither cast nor reload cast hollow point ammunition, but would love to shoot it.

You do not propose to compete against the million round a day businesses, and they don't propose to start casting HP's for sale, loaded or otherwise. They are no more your competition than Buick.

You are not competing against the small scale reloaders, because you intend to sell a more attractively packaged product. You are only competing against yourself, testing whether or not your idea, that this product will sell for a profit, is viable. It may or may not be viable, but you do not propose to make an unrealistic windfall and are well aware of the risks involved and the necessary steps to minimize those risks.

In a larger sense, can you imagine a better country in which to pursue your dream? Oh yes, they could ban guns, ammo and components,at any time. They could sign all of our rights over to the UN. Overzealous agents from any of a dozen regulatory bodies, could close you down, and spirit you away in the middle of the night. Hoarding is rampant, supplies are tight and may remain so. But in this country,and in this century, we have more people than ever involved with and intererested in firearms, with more states than ever allowing concealed carry, and with tyrant city states, like Chicago, San Francisco, New York, and Washington,DC facing a federal mandate to support, on some terms,the second amendment.It was not always so.

This transition occurred because people did what they were told could never be done. People like you.

I believe that the efforts of you and those like you, are every bit as crucial to our second amendment rights as a comparable contribution to the NRA, because your efforts ease more people into the shooting tent, and exclude no one; the NRA cannot do its important work without volume.

Take another example from this excellent forum. Powder coating has taken off, gathering a lot of enthusiastic users in a short period of time. I now see coated bullets listed for sale, without the bother of preparing them, in the Dillon flyer. I'm not one of the enthusiasts. Some of them may not share my enthusiasm for cast HPs.But I'm very glad they are here and growing - because we need each other.

Those who have here discouraged your proposal, are sincere, and mean you well, but their criticisms can still serve you, as either precautions to take or challenges to overcome.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, you have the support of your capable family and are not compelled to do this for financial reasons; you can do as much or as little of this as you like without the fear that it will become drudgery to you.

To paraphrase Henry Ford,if you try, you cannot fail. If you do not, you can only fail. This business proposal may or may not succeed,but either way, you will successfully answer the question you first posed about its viability under your management. That question can
be answered in no other way, and by no other person.

By the way, I don't buy any reloads, and very little factory ammo,but I'd like that second box you sell. I would have grabbed the first one, but I was busy casting while KohlerK91 was posting, so I lost out.

[Bullwolf]

Packaging is going to be a problem. You wouldn't believe what a plain old box costs.

I worked as a re-loader for a small company located inside an indoor range, back before the Clinton era.

For packaging we managed to source (in bulk) those black plastic inserts that sometimes came inside factory cardboard ammunition boxes.

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/product_images/v/649/aguila_380_ammo_open__32361_zoom.jpg

We would fill them up (caliber specific) and then shrink wrap em.

After the plastic cooled, an adhesive label with our company logo and information was applied on the outside of the shrink wrap and it was loaded onto a wooden pallet.

We sold our reloads to customers shooting at the range, and shipped to a few other indoor ranges. We also sold reloads at the gun shows. Our reloads were made from a small portion of the range brass we picked up from the indoor range, the majority of the range brass that we did not use got sold for scrap.

We mostly loaded on a few of the big Dillon machines with case feeders, older RL1000's. I think the new Dillon model is the Super 1050 now. We also had an old Ammo Load Machine that was rarely used.

http://www.ammoload.com/markIII-tapered.jpg

I worked at that range for quite a long time, up until the point where the owner sold the range, along with the reloading business. Since I was the only experienced re-loader they had ever hired, I pretty much got to run the Dillon's full time.

Not sure if the packaging information is still relevant, but it worked at the time for us.



- Bullwolf

[AbitNutz]

I'm talking to the State Department about ITAR. Apparently they do make exceptions on a case by case basis. All I have to do is convince them....

That sounds exactly like the kind of info I needed on packaging.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Denul: if 99 people told you that jumping off a cliff would kill you ?

We are only trying to reveal the true nature of the business. A lot of people are focusing on the Legal aspects of it, I am focusing on the economic aspects of it.

It is a financial loser and the reason why is the profit margin is too narrow to survive at low volume. You are competing against established hi volume producers whether you choose to be a low volume producer or not, and as such you are subject to the same profit margins as they dictate. As a home business you must make at least $40 and hour to survive, and that is just barely. This is true whether you consider it to be a Hobby, or not. It still costs money either way.

It seems that Abitnutz is going to pursue this anyway and I wish him well, but if all he needs to do is fill up time then there are a thousand other ways to do it that won't burn him out on the sport/hobby he already loves.

Even sex gets old if you're doing it 1000 times a day,,, everyday.

Randy

[jmorris]

I think you guys are all missing what the OP is saying.

HE IS RETIRED!!!!!

Sounds to me he is looking for something to do.

That is what I took out of it and why I quit posting.


Kind of like a lemonade stand for adults. Not going to put food on the table but you can have fun and make something, until you get tired of it.


If it were just about money, he would be better off selling lead and Linotype from his endless supply. All money in and only work he would have to do is ship it.

[unclebill]

i would buy your hollow point boolits. ;)

[marvelshooter]

I have been watching this thread for a while and those of you who agree it is not all about the money are right. Ask this guy: http://qmmo.net/reloads_price.php why he still works a full time day job. Ask him him how much money he nets selling 100 .223 reloads for $35.00. If the OP wants to do it to keep busy and make a little slush money have at it. And keep us posted how it goes. It's better reading than some of the stuff that comes through this forum.

[AbitNutz]

The basic numbers pan out based on my, possibly unique, situation. If it comes down to filing a blizzard of paperwork, I'm ok there too. Paying $30 for an FFL to manufacture is certainly do-able but if I have to pay $2,250 to cover an ITAR fee...well, that may be a deal killer. However, there is hope. I just talked to the Directorate of Trade Controls at the Department of State (good god!) and they do make exceptions.

The entire situation is really nebulous, which is good and bad. Ask the right person and get help. Ask the wrong person and do not pass go, do not collect $200.00.

I really have nothing to lose. I'll pursue this till it stops making sense.

[Weaponologist]

Good For you AbitNutz, Don't stop pushing.. I've had several businesses before I was disabled. But that's a story for another time.If this happens I won't get a chance to see or use your product less you come to a Gun Show or 2 in North Carolina. However if you should ever make more HP 45acp or 357 than you need for your product please send me a Qt and price list.

[bigblockbill]

AbitNutz I fully support you and your idea. Don't let the naysayers get you down. My father just retired and bought some rent houses to keep him busy (wish he would have gotten into the reloading business). Denul is right the current situation of the second amendment needs people like you, and America needs people like you. America needs people that are willing to take a risk and open a business. I understand you are only doing this for your entertainment and if you can afford it go for it. Since I got to this post to late Ill take box #3. 357 Mag, I'm serious, save my info and let me know if you get up and running. If its loaded hot i'll take 2 boxes. We as a hobby need to support our own don't tare them down.

[Adam10mm]

Im a small commercial reloader. PM me and I will give you some advice and clear up some things.

[MaryB]

I buy boxes and trays from these guys for my reloads. http://www.topbrass-inc.com/reloading-supplies/products.php?category_id=56

[Handloader109]

If you can source Powder and Primers, and you are casting the bullets and you have the casings, then I say go for it. you have the right idea, start with only a couple of calibers and make HPs. I wouldn't classify them as a +P or anything like that, just HPs. you can get somewhat of a premium over cheap rn. Heck, some of the factory HPs are a dollar a round.

[brassrat]

I have lots of ammo, lets see the salespeople.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If it were just about money, he would be better off selling lead and Linotype from his endless supply. All money in and only work he would have to do is ship it.

Abitnutz: This is the best idea I have heard here yet!

You might have a look at this proposal as it is all win and no loss.

Also you wouldn't subject yourself to "loading burn out" which you will see quickly otherwise.

If you sold on Ebay and other places you could easily fill your days with selling linotype and save your actual loading of ammo for your own use.

Randy