The fallacy of blind brand loyalty

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, I'm about to start a discussion in which I intend to voice an opinion concerning a beloved American icon. If that sort of blasphemy offends you, please stop reading now. If you have an open mind, please continue....

I'm not a motorcycle fanatic but for most of my adult life and then some, I've occasionally driven motorcycles.
During parts of my life a motorcycle was: 1- my primary form of transportation, 2- a supplement to another vehicle, 3- just a toy or 4- I didn't own one at all. I've owned BMW, Honda, Yamaha's and rode or worked on a several other brands.

During the last couple of years I've had the opportunity to put a few hundred miles on a couple of Harley Davidson motorcycles, including a new Soft Tail classic. These bikes belonged to close friends and I was happy to help them move those bikes around as needed.

I don't wish to be tarred & feathered but.....in my opinion......Harley Davidson's are way big on style and VERY weak on engineering. I don't want to say that HD's suck but they aren't worth what they sell for and there are way better machines available. I don't believe there's a single part of a Harley that was designed with performance and reliability over style and nostalgia.


OK, just my opinion and not even a rant. Hopefully I will not have to hide a cave while the town's people hunt me down with pitch forks and torches. :-o

[Love Life]

Makes me think of a certain American gun manufacturer...

[osteodoc08]

As far as sport bikes go, you can't really best the Japs when it comes to performance and value.

With H-D you buy not only into the brand, but also the culture. No other motorcycle brand has such a wide and loyal following like H-D.

This is is coming from a sport bike fan. I rode a Kawi ZX-6 for years, but made a deal with the wife after our son was born. I give up my bike, her the cigarettes. She's continued smoking. I plan on a ZX-14 within the next 2 years.

112931

[Petrol & Powder]

Roger the HD culture !
I am constantly amused by all of those "Non-conformist" Harley riders that are the MOST conforming lot of people I've ever seen!
I've seen military formations with greater diversity of uniforms than Harley Davidson owners !!

[Springfield]

No surprise there. H-D has continued to use a very old engine design, and as it sells well there is no need to up date it. Yes, there are many more more sophisticated and powerful engines out there, but how fast do you REALLY have to go? The worlds streets are not race tracks, so if they make a bike that goes from her to there with decent reliability and is fun to drive, what else do you need? I worked in bike shops as a living years ago, so I know what works and doesn't. At the moment I drive an '82 BMW with a sidecar. It is slow and outdated and I can't even split lanes in traffic, but it gets my kids and I around just fine, is more fun and gets better mileage than my cars. Plus I have put 156,000 miles on it without an engine overhaul, I even have the original clutch. New and improved isn't always better.

[osteodoc08]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not hating at all. I'd love to have a V-Rod, even though it's been "looked down upon" in some hard core H-D circles due to non traditional design including water cooling, but guess what, your top of the line H-D cycles are now water cooled, albeight the exhaust valves only. It's a start.

[ph4570]

I have had Triumphs, BSAs, many Hondas and two HDs. I now have a HD Road King. I have enjoyed them all. They are different beasts. Ride what you want and enjoy it.

[osteodoc08]

Springfield,

I'd love to see a picture of your BMW with sidecar.

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

Makes me think of a certain American gun manufacturer...

Makes me think of several.

Unfortunately 'over-priced and under-engineered' is a big part of the reason that American manufacturing has suffered so much in the last half century

[454PB]

My Dad was a Harley guy, and got me interested in motorcycles at a very young age. I bought my first bike at the age of 15 and rode it as my only form of transportation for a long time. Since then, I've owned about 15 different models, but never a Harley.

Starting 20 years ago, I began riding Gold Wings, and have now owned 6 of them (1976 through my current 2007).

I recently read an article in Wing World magazine where a rider just turned 425,000 miles on his 2002 Gold Wing. No major repairs during that time other than fork rebuilds and an alternator replacement.

[dragon813gt]

Why would HD mess w/ a proven track record of sales? If they change it up they won't sell as well. Constant change for the sake of advancement isn't all it's cracked up to be. I bought a HD XL1200V last year. It's a 1200 Sportster that is tricked out like a chopper. It's called a 72. I bought it for the looks. It rides horribly and I'm upset I bought it. Well not really because I know it will hold it's value. Especially because it's a limited edition. They only made so many in green. If you want the pinnacle of engineering then buy another brand. If you want a bike that will hold its value better than most then buy a HD. They command the money they do because that's what people want and they are willing to pay for them.

I have less than 400 miles on this because I don't have the time to ride and it rides horribly.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa39/dragon813gt/72/A07A5CEC-B980-4B26-944D-CD517E156FF4-1108-0000004E4D347675.jpg

[runfiverun]

Makes me think of several.

Unfortunately 'over-priced and under-engineered' is a big part of the reason that American manufacturing has suffered so much in the last half century

actually over priced and over engineered would be more like it.
things are now engineered to have a life-span of -X amount of time or uses.

look at the new lines of low cost rifles everyone is putting out.
if they are such a great value [err rifle] why isn't it the only rifle those company's make, instead of it and their mainstay rifle that got them there?
and which one is the 'false' one??
the big named one they charge double for, or the cheap one that works "great" for everybody that has one?

[dragon813gt]

look at the new lines of low cost rifles everyone is putting out.
if they are such a great value [err rifle] why isn't it the only rifle those company's make, instead of it and their mainstay rifle that got them there?
and which one is the 'false' one??
the big named one they charge double for, or the cheap one that works "great" for everybody that has one?

It makes financial sense to have model lines at different price points. Not everyone can afford $1k for a rifle. Time will tell how well the lower priced rifles last over time. It's the upper level models that push technology forward. As it advances that technology filters down into the lower models as it becomes more cost effective to do so. Rifles are just like cars from a sales standpoint. A manufacturer is going to sell a lot more of its lower priced models.

[Petrol & Powder]

No surprise there. H-D has continued to use a very old engine design, and as it sells well there is no need to up date it. Yes, there are many more more sophisticated and powerful engines out there, but how fast do you REALLY have to go? The worlds streets are not race tracks, so if they make a bike that goes from her to there with decent reliability and is fun to drive, what else do you need? I worked in bike shops as a living years ago, so I know what works and doesn't. At the moment I drive an '82 BMW with a sidecar. It is slow and outdated and I can't even split lanes in traffic, but it gets my kids and I around just fine, is more fun and gets better mileage than my cars. Plus I have put 156,000 miles on it without an engine overhaul, I even have the original clutch. New and improved isn't always better.

R100 Airhead?

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't have any problem with Harley Davidson's sales success, more power to them. I just think the emperor has no clothes when people talk about how great HD's are.
That 45 degree V-twin was a great motor in 1940. It still works but there is some better stuff out there now. HD can't abandon that engine without losing it's followers. That's fine, they're not in business to make motorcycles; They're in business to make MONEY ! I get it and I have no problems with HD being a profitable company. I just don't think I'd lay down $23K+ for one.

[dragon813gt]

I just don't think I'd lay down $23K+ for one.

That's the beauty, you don't have to because there are other options. Brand loyalty is a double edge sword. It can be both good and bad. I just don't see the point in getting upset, to any degree, over something like this. Pay up for what you want to buy and be happy. I look at manufacturer's the claims as propaganda because that's what they are. Now the fools that will argue over brands are another story.

[condorjohn]

112943I'll bet these two guys are turning over in their graves. William Harley and Arthur Davidson, 1914.
I myself am a Suzuki fan. First one was an X6 Hustler, 1965.

[richhodg66]

Besides the "culture" and already stated blind conformity about Harleys, I just don't like V Twin cruisers very much, bad riding position to me on the ones I've ridden and that's all Harley makes.

My current bikes are a 2004 Suzuki DL1000 V Strom, a 2003 Kawasaki KLR650 (my favorite) and a 2002 Triumph Bonneville. I like them all for different reasons, but none of them have me with my feet out in front of me, I just never could feel in control of a bike in that kind of position.

Harley just discontinued the XR1200 (I think is what they called it) which had the 1200 Sporster motor but with a frame and suspension and brakes that allowed you to really use all that power and was a real riding position. Like the V Strom, it annoyed the Harley purists, their customer base, so they dropped it from the line. A local dealer has had a used one for a while and I've been sorely tempted to trade one off for it, but have resisted temptation so far.

[MtGun44]

Wow - blast from the past. A high school classmate had an X6 Hustler in about
1967, and was still riding it in 1971, the last time we crossed paths - a couple
years after graduation. It was very fast in it's day, and sure sounded good
to my high school boy's ear.

Bill

[brtelec]

Before I got into my current business I was in the motorcycle business off and on for many years. I sold, repaired and managed in mostly Jap with the occasional sprinkle of BMW, Ducati, and Bimota. My feeling about it is, if riding a particular brand of motorcycle, for whatever reason you do it, adds even an ounce of additional enjoyment for you, then that is the perfect bike for you. I never rode Harleys because during that time in my life they did not do what I wanted a motorcycle to do. Haul A$$, Stop Quick and Handle.

[Brett Ross]

There is something about the sound of a Harley that just stirs my soul. That being said. The power, or lack of, they get out of 96CI's is pitiful, this coming for the proud owner of a 2010 Ultra Classic.
Tony

[HangFireW8]

Anyone have a Victory or one of the new Indians?

[shooterg]

What I USED to love about the older Harleys was parts interchange between many year models. Actually, many changes have been made to the line, still V-twins, but I'll keep my 1972 - and wish I still had the 1966 !

Riding on 2 wheels is a lot more dangerous than it useta be but it's still a great way to tour, no matter what brand you're rolling on.

[waksupi]

I've owned a half dozen different brands over the years. Norton Villiers Commando was the real animal of the bunch. Harleys were the classy bikes.
On the roads here, you see more Harley and Gold Wings than any other road bike. If I were going to get back into it, it would be a BMW, or a Gold wing.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

My brother was a Honda motorcycle dealer here in southern California for 28 years. At one time Honda was on the verge of putting HD out of business which was the last thing they wanted to do. Honda sent some of there top engineers to the HD plant to help improve design and mfg techniques. At that time a Honda 450 could drive rings around Harley's biggest bike. I used to ride dirt bikes in the desert but I tried one little ride across town to visit a friend and it scared me so much I didn't want to ride my bike home. One older women saw me coming up the street, looked me in the eye and pulled out of the drive way and forced me into the other lane. Fortunately no one was coming so I didn't have a head on collision but I never rode on the street again. I salute you guys that do.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've owned lot's of Bikes (street and dirt) over the years.
mostly Hondas, but I had Suzukis, kawis, Yamahas and even a Guzzi.

But I'll never buy a bike with air cooled 2 cylinder engine, where one cylinder is behind the other and doesn't get proper air flow for cooling...IMHO, a very poor design.

[doc1876]

back when riding was for the most part illegal, I had a '49 Harley pan head. the engine spent more time on the kitchen table than in the frame.

[fryboy]

apply these quotes to the brand of your choice

"it's a jeep thing..."

" if i have to explain it you wouldnt understand..."

now for the meat of the matter ( or maybe what really matters lolz ) ask a bunch of women which they prefer to ride on the back of .....

[45Reverse]

The ONLY truly cool, well engineered and built, unbelievably sexy... American bike
112958

...did I mention I just happen to own one? ;)

[brtelec]

It was not Honda putting Harley out of business it was AMF! And engineering help or not, it was Willie G. that saved it.

[Mallard57]

I guess what I don't understand is if you don't ride a Harley around here you get looked down on(I know this because a bunch of them are my friends). Like someone said earlier not everyone can afford 20 some grand and then half again more for chrome and accys. I'm always grateful just to have someone to ride with, who cares what they're riding.

[duke76]

I owned 3 Harleys in the past 20 years and just got back from Sturgis the other day and I agree 100 percent, I checked out the new Indians the other day at the rally and sat on them and can honestly say if I was going to buy a bike it would be an Indian, I am not really in the market for one right now which is good to give them a few years to get any bugs worked out they might have with a totally new bike but those new roadmasters are sweet, I think they are way ahead of Harley and around the same price and now that Polaris owns it I dont think there will be a problem with them going belly up like before, I am hoping there will be more aftermarket options for them by the time I am ready to purchase one

112962

[Finster101]

Well, there's a butt for every seat. I like Harleys. I have an 08 Roadglide now that has served me well. Rode it to Alaska and back in 2010 (11,860 miles in 3 weeks) with zero problems. Top of the world highway in to Chicken, Alaska highway and going to the sun highway. Did an oil change in Fairbanks the put tires on it when I got home. Still ride it every day. I don't ride a jap bike but I don't bash them. I don't like Glocks but I don't bash them either, so I guess I don't see the point of this thread. Just my thoughts as a "conformist".

[troyboy]

I ride 50 miles a day to work and back when in town and it isn't raining. Rode plenty of other bikes when I was a kid but always wanted a Harley. I ride a Harley my Harley. If I need to explain you don't undestand.

[Handloader109]

Why would HD mess w/ a proven track record of sales? If they change it up they won't sell as well. Constant change for the sake of advancement isn't all it's cracked up to be. I bought a HD XL1200V last year. It's a 1200 Sportster that is tricked out like a chopper. It's called a 72. I bought it for the looks. It rides horribly and I'm upset I bought it. Well not really because I know it will hold it's value. Especially because it's a limited edition. They only made so many in green. If you want the pinnacle of engineering then buy another brand. If you want a bike that will hold its value better than most then buy a HD. They command the money they do because that's what people want and they are willing to pay for them.

I have less than 400 miles on this because I don't have the time to ride and it rides horribly.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa39/dragon813gt/72/A07A5CEC-B980-4B26-944D-CD517E156FF4-1108-0000004E4D347675.jpg

Dragon, that is a butt ugly bike....I haven't seen one before. It looks like it would ride poorly. Not a hd hater, but I would never spend my money on one.

[ryan28]

You ride a motorcycle, you don't drive one.

[richhodg66]

As I said earlier, not a V Twin cruiser fan, but I really do like the styling and looks of the Victory bikes and have heard a lot of good things about them. If I ever get to where I need a flashy bike, I'd go with a Victory over a Harley.

[historicfirearms]

Like guns, everyone has their favorite motorcycles. I've had a motorcycle of some form since I was 11 years old, Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Harley, BSA, Kawasaki, and now have an old bmw. I really liked the Harley and will get another some day. True, they aren't the fastest or best handling but there is something special about them. I think that all motorcycles are special in their own way, never rode one that didn't put a smile on my face.

The thing I really didn't like about the Harley were the other Harley riders. Too many posers that weren't real motorcycle aficionados, they just liked to wear their biker costume on the weekends.

[dragon813gt]

Dragon, that is a butt ugly bike....I haven't seen one before. It looks like it would ride poorly. Not a hd hater, but I would never spend my money on one.

Gee thanks. I like the way it looks which is why I bought it. I like choppers and this is a factory mini version. The main problem is the seat. It looks good but once you hit sixty the only thing keeping you on it is your arms. It's also a Sportster so for long rides it just beats you up. It's also unbelievably top heavy which makes it a pain to wheel around the gas pumps because it just wants to fall over at slow speeds. But it gets looks everywhere I go. You don't see many green bikes let alone one w/ candy paint that has heavy flakes in it :)

[buckwheatpaul]

Blind loyalty is a two way steet....the manufacturer has to hold up their end of the bargin as well.....I try to buy American, even if it is higher, if it is at least as good as the Chinese version.....I hate the #### that comes out of China....they hate us and they are trying to kill us with the poison food and lead based paint etc....and American businesses are exploiting us by bringing us cheap quality products from China.....I hope and pray that America wakes up before we no longer manufacture anything except illegal aliens in this country.....

[wallenba]

I rode my first motorcycle at age twelve. Not mine, a neighbors, but I had access to it as long as I put gas in it. It was a Honda c-90 if I recall, early sixties. Got hooked. Bought a used Triumph Bonneville while I was still in high school. Kept it in a friends garage, as my parents would not have allowed me to have it. Later, more Triumphs, BSA's and then my first new Honda. A 1976 CB-750F, first bike I rode more hours than I wrenched. After decades of wanting the status of a Harley, I bought a new softail the year before I retired (2007). I think it is of very good quality, light years ahead of the AMF years. I just wish that my back would allow me to ride it more.

[Finster101]

The simple solution to most things of this nature is, if you don't like it don't buy one.

[Petrol & Powder]

There is something about the sound of a Harley that just stirs my soul. That being said. The power, or lack of, they get out of 96CI's is pitiful, this coming for the proud owner of a 2010 Ultra Classic.
Tony

The SOUND of a Harley V-twin is a result of the totally F*****UP firing order of that prehistoric 45 degree V-twin engine. That thing is probably the LEAST dynamically balanced engine still made today.

Source- Wikipedia (but still accurate :razz:) :
"The exhaust note is basically a throaty growling sound with some popping. The 45° design of the engine thus creates a plug firing sequencing as such: The first cylinder fires, the second (rear) cylinder fires 315° later, then there is a 405° gap until the first cylinder fires again, giving the engine its unique sound."

That sound of a big V-twin is the signature of one of the least balanced 2 cylinder engines ever created. You can add all the counter balance weight you want to the crankshaft in an attempt to achieve static balance but you'll NEVER dynamically balance an engine with that 315 and 405 degree offset of the two power strokes. It's just not possible.

The 2 cylinder BMW flat boxer twins (R series) or any vertical twin Japanese / British / U.S. engine can be designed to create smooth power, WITH less displacement and weight! Add a few more cylinders and the power can be EQUALLY spread over the crankshaft rotation for even better efficiency with less vibration and a lower weight per horsepower ratio.
That big Harley V-twin uses one crank pin for two connecting rods. It makes a cool sound but that's about all it's good for.

Harley Davidson design = STYLE over FUNCTION.

[Sweetpea]

My Magna fires every 90 degrees...

VERY smooth...

[Petrol & Powder]

I've owned lot's of Bikes (street and dirt) over the years.
mostly Hondas, but I had Suzukis, kawis, Yamahas and even a Guzzi.

But I'll never buy a bike with air cooled 2 cylinder engine, where one cylinder is behind the other and doesn't get proper air flow for cooling...IMHO, a very poor design.

Just one of many engineering flaws of a Harley V-Twin!!

[Finster101]

Sure wish I could come up with such a successful screwed up mess.

[xs11jack]

I think is the first thread anywhere that H-D is dissected so calmly, with no bad mouthing, snarling, and other nasty things said. Amazing. As for me, my addiction is Yamaha XS1100s. I am on my third one a 78. Love it to pieces.
Ole Jack

[dragon813gt]

Harley Davidson design = STYLE over FUNCTION.

And what is wrong w/ this? A good portion if the current modified car scene is just this. I don't expect most here to know what's going on in Japanese/Lowrider/MiniTruck/Euro scene. Not everyone is out for performance(function). Some just want their vehicle to look good. I show my VWs and you don't even know how retarded the current trends are. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder so who am I say they are doing it wrong.

There are a lot of options so I don't understand bashing brands.

[Petrol & Powder]

Sure wish I could come up with such a successful screwed up mess.

Therein is the profit !

[Petrol & Powder]

"There are a lot of options so I don't understand bashing brands. "

I'm not bashing, just exposing

[Petrol & Powder]

I think is the first thread anywhere that H-D is dissected so calmly, with no bad mouthing, snarling, and other nasty things said. Amazing..................


I would like to say how pleased I am that not a single person has threatened to kill me! Nor has there been any mention of tar & feathers after my first post.
The maturity and intelligence of the civilized members of this forum is amazing.

Thank You all !!

[oldfart1956]

Odd to read all this right now. I've been a Goldwing rider for the last 25 years and right now....I'm looking at used Sportsters. Go figger? But here's the deal, right now it would cost me more to put the Wing back on the road than it would to buy a mid-1990's Sportster. (Wing sitting for 10 years, long story) Also, my nephew recently opened up his own shop in Chambersburg and he worked at Battlefield Harley in Gettysburg for years. So he knows how to work on them. My Honda guy moved to Florida...sigh. Add in that the Sporsters (especially the 883's) are selling for less than many used imports and it might be workable. I'm under no illusion of reliability like I'm used to, I'm sure the ride will suck and power and performance....seriously? I'm not going to dress like a pirate. If I call the girlfriend "my old lady" she'll punch me in the junk. I don't drink so won't fit in with any "club". Good. I just want a tiddler that someone local can work on to ride to Walmart and check on reloading supplies. I'm sure reliability is up a bit since they went to Japanese forks and rear suspension, and jap disc brakes, and fuel injection from Mexico, and Brazillian made (Twin-Cam) engines. ;) And I'm curious about the new model coming from....India? So put me down as "loathe the company, indifferent about the bikes." I also worked in the motorcycle industry for a few years. Suzuki. Audie...the pondering Oldfart..

[Finster101]

No your bashing and more than just a little trolling. Someone must have gotten tired of the 1911 threads or glock threads or any of the other countless brand x is junk threads. All the while having no intent to use said product. Just looking to stir the pot and get a rise out of people. I don't belittle what other folks like even though they are not my cup of tea. No one is forcing me or anyone else to purchase a particular brand.

[dragon813gt]

"There are a lot of options so I don't understand bashing brands. "

I'm not bashing, just exposing

Exposing what? You are bashing a brand and the people that like said brand. I don't really care. But to say you're not bashing is a lie.

[Just Duke]

Blind loyalty is a two way steet....the manufacturer has to hold up their end of the bargin as well.....I try to buy American, even if it is higher, if it is at least as good as the Chinese version.....I hate the #### that comes out of China....they hate us and they are trying to kill us with the poison food and lead based paint etc....and American businesses are exploiting us by bringing us cheap quality products from China.....I hope and pray that America wakes up before we no longer manufacture anything except illegal aliens in this country.....


Well said Paul.

[Just Duke]

I have had chances in life to get one really cheap. I really didn't need that much police attention.

[Garyshome]

If you don't like em don't buy em, Oh and I don't really care what your opinion is about as much as you really want to hear my opinion. There is a lot of more important things going on in the USA then a debate on the merits of a HD.

[dakotashooter2]

As my uncle who has ridden and repaired Harley's all his life says "if it don't leak oil it can't be a Harley. A Harley is a "mechanics bike". If you are not a mechanic, over the bikes lifetime you will pay far more to keep it running than you paid for it.

He was repairing a custom bike made by a big name builder,for someone that only had a few hundred miles on it. It had multiple and serious problems. He basically told me that the bike was not built for the purpose of riding it. It was all show and no go.

[doc1876]

You ride a motorcycle, you don't drive one.

You DROVE that ol pan, suicide clutch, manual mechanical rear brakes, no front brakes, 6v electrics. Don't tell me anything about riding, it was a full time job just getting home from work, and a long ride was an adventure.

[ryan28]

You DROVE that ol pan, suicide clutch, manual mechanical rear brakes, no front brakes, 6v electrics. Don't tell me anything about riding, it was a full time job just getting home from work, and a long ride was an adventure.

So if the bike has a hand shift, then you drive it? New one on me.

[DeanWinchester]

I've never understood Harley's. It's gotta be emotionally driven because I can't see anything rational about them.
There's no real performance for the cost and size of the engine. There's certainly no economy.
Style is subjective but the same exact style can be had in a Honda Shadow for example for a third of the cost and you'll have performance and longevity exponentially.

One of my all time favorite bikes was a VMax. Smooth as a sewing machine, not bad on gas if you stayed out of the throttle but oh God if you did get into it, it will set the asphalt on fire. All with very little maintenance.

[Petrol & Powder]

No trolling, just observations. I respect the views of intelligent people even when those views don't mesh with my views. Now if you're just an idiot and don't know why you parrot someone else's view.......then I may be a little harsh.

[ryan28]

Looks a lot like trolling to me.

[M-Tecs]

Who here owns or wants to own a high end Sharps rifle?

The Sharps is a 150 year old design firing obsolete cartridges. With so many more modern designs and modern cartridges why would anyone want a Sharps?

Whether it’s a Sharps or HD the answer is the same. It’s not all about the latest and greatest. It’s about the overall enjoyment of the experience.

HD has done a very good marketing job on portraying the image and sound of a HD as status symbol of prestige for a lifestyle.

Like the Sharps it’s just another toy for adult boys.

When I was younger I was all about the latest and greatest. Now I enjoy my Sharps, Trapdoors, Colt Old Army's and HD’s far more than the latest greatest wonder boomers or rice burners.

[fatelk]

I understand the Harley thing. If it's not a Harley, it just not a Harley. Most of the Harley guys I know readily admit that other makes have better performance, but there's just something about a Harley. I can do without the condescending superiority complex a few of them have, but otherwise to each their own.

My grandfather rode Harleys and Indians in the '20s and '30s, and my dad rode a Harley for cheap transportation in the late '50s and '60s.

I never could afford a Harley. I had an old KZ650 for a while, then an old XS11, but I realized one day that I'm just not a die-hard biker and never will be. I really enjoy a nice cruise in the country on a warm day with a cool breeze, but other than that it's four wheels for me.

Added: M-Tecs - well said!

[Bullwolf]

I had a 1977 Shovel Head (Super Glide)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112981&d=1407557223

I spent more time working on it than I did riding it. It reminded me of owning a Volkswagen Beetle. If you weren't a good at wrenching, or much of a mechanic that iron Harley Davidson would have taught you to become one, or you would give up on it from sheer frustration. Sadly this was not an uncommon story amongst my friends who also rode Harley's. I had a neighbor with a Pan/Shovel combo that was worse than mine for amount of time spent on the kitchen table.

I've ridden motorcycles for many years. From dirt bikes to street bikes, American, Italian and Japanese bikes included. I don't think I would buy another Harley Davidson today for what you get, or what they ask for them now. I Think My 77 Shovel is worth twice what I sold her for today though... In the gun world it's counterpart would likely be a Colt.

Hate to say it, but these days I ride a Suzuki.


- Bullwolf

[BruceB]

With apologies to Harley-Davidson owners.....

"Harley-Davidson..... converting gasoline to noise for over XX years, WITHOUT the annoying side-effect of horsepower".

[downzero]

Looks a lot like trolling to me.

Yep. HD outsells all other motorcycles in this country by a long way for a reason. It isn't because everyone is looking for a whiz-bang OHC 4 or 6 cylinder motorcycle.

And their bikes are certainly competitive on price as well, to say otherwise is to simply not be paying attention. The bikes that actually compete with them are comparable in cost or even more expensive.

[bushboy]

I think is the first thread anywhere that H-D is dissected so calmly, with no bad mouthing, snarling, and other nasty things said.
Ole Jack

I guess you haven't read Petrol's posts :oops:

[Cap'n Morgan]

now for the meat of the matter ( or maybe what really matters lolz ) ask a bunch of women which they prefer to ride on the back of .....

Like a friend once said" Riding the back of a Harley is like watching a poorly focused slideshow"

[facetious]

now for the meat of the matter ( or maybe what really matters lolz ) ask a bunch of women which they prefer to ride on the back of .....[/QUOTE]

Reminds me of the guy who wanted to get a H-D and the wife said NO.
So he got one any way and changed the name on it to "Big Johnson" And she hoped right on!

[Archey]

I have had Hondas and now a Triumph Bonneville. I have nothing against HD's other than I can't afford one.

[unclebill]

i am 51 and as a kid i knew there were safer /faster/cheaper to run/more reliable/better handling bikes.
but old harleys and indians are the epitome of cool.
if i had the money my dream bike would be from the 30s or 40s.

[richhodg66]

I have had Hondas and now a Triumph Bonneville. I have nothing against HD's other than I can't afford one.

My opinion, no bike looks classier than a Bonneville. Mine handles real nice and is surprisingly quick. Also doesn't make a bunch of obnoxious noise.

I could afford a Harley if I wanted one, I just don't want one. Seems the only models of Harley I like are the ones they seem apologetic for making, i.e., water cooled or the now discontinued XR1200.

[Petrol & Powder]

With apologies to Harley-Davidson owners.....

"Harley-Davidson..... converting gasoline to noise for over XX years, WITHOUT the annoying side-effect of horsepower".

/\ If you don't mind, I like to use that line in the future. It captures my view of HD fairly well.

[Petrol & Powder]

There's nothing wrong with buying what you want as long as you understand what you're buying.
If you're seeking that particular style offered by a HD, great.
If you what to join that HD culture, have at it.

I work with a guy that rode his HD across the U.S., east to west and back....twice and then some. He openly acknowledges the faults of the design but he wanted a Harley and nothing else would do. It was the only type of bike acceptable to him and he went into that purchase with both eyes open. He understood what he was getting into and I respect that.

[Finster101]

So the purpose of your thread would be to protect us un-informed and uneducated idiots from ourselves. Seems to be a popular trend these days.

[starnbar]

I too have owned a couple bikes a triump tigercub was my first followed by a bsa and then a Norton commando finally a fxr hd which I bought brand new in 85 still have that one still ride it too when the traffic isn't too bad. I have been run off the road a few times by people who either don't care to stop or are just mean. First rule of riding you have to learn to dodge em if not you will end up as a spot on the road. I like to ride and I enjoy my Harley but I enjoy riding them all.

[Petrol & Powder]

So the purpose of your thread would be to protect us un-informed and uneducated idiots from ourselves. Seems to be a popular trend these days.
I don't think you need protecting. Just wanted to discuss the HD effect.

[WILCO]

Looks a lot like trolling to me.

Same here.

[alamogunr]

I wanted a Harley years ago but I never had the "belly" for it so I would never fit in.

[Finster101]

I wanted a Harley years ago but I never had the "belly" for it so I would never fit in.


So now it's just turned to insults?

[wallenba]

Funny how most municipalities with motor policemen choose H-D. Ever try to get a bean counter to go for something with a bad rep?

[wallenba]

I wanted a Harley years ago but I never had the "belly" for it so I would never fit in.

I represent that remark!:wink:

[richhodg66]

Funny how most municipalities with motor policemen choose H-D. Ever try to get a bean counter to go for something with a bad rep?

Kawasaki quit making the KZ1000 Police Bikes in 2005 when the tooling in their Nebraska plant wore out. Until then, I saw a lot more cops on those than Harleys and I suspect they still would be if they were being made now. When you consider the Z1 was introduced in '73 and basically the same big, air cooled, inline four design was still going more than 30 years later, that's a pretty good design and production run.

[jonp]

5 pages in one day! I have a chromed out '99 Softail Custom and I love the bike but I will be the first one to tell you that you can get every bit bit as nice a bike for a lot less. Of course nothing sounds like my vance & hines longshots.

[jonp]

The SOUND of a Harley V-twin is a result of the totally F*****UP firing order of that prehistoric 45 degree V-twin engine. That thing is probably the LEAST dynamically balanced engine still made today.

Source- Wikipedia (but still accurate :razz:) :
"The exhaust note is basically a throaty growling sound with some popping. The 45° design of the engine thus creates a plug firing sequencing as such: The first cylinder fires, the second (rear) cylinder fires 315° later, then there is a 405° gap until the first cylinder fires again, giving the engine its unique sound."

That sound of a big V-twin is the signature of one of the least balanced 2 cylinder engines ever created. You can add all the counter balance weight you want to the crankshaft in an attempt to achieve static balance but you'll NEVER dynamically balance an engine with that 315 and 405 degree offset of the two power strokes. It's just not possible.

The 2 cylinder BMW flat boxer twins (R series) or any vertical twin Japanese / British / U.S. engine can be designed to create smooth power, WITH less displacement and weight! Add a few more cylinders and the power can be EQUALLY spread over the crankshaft rotation for even better efficiency with less vibration and a lower weight per horsepower ratio.
That big Harley V-twin uses one crank pin for two connecting rods. It makes a cool sound but that's about all it's good for.

Harley Davidson design = STYLE over FUNCTION.
Style over Function about sums it up. Cruise in on a Goldwing and people may glance at you. Cruise in on my chromed Softtail Custom at 104 db and they will notice you.

[starnbar]

That's true but Harleys have been around almost three times as long on the same design.

[richhodg66]

Style over Function about sums it up. Cruise in on a Goldwing and people may glance at you. Cruise in on my chromed Softtail Custom at 104 db and they will notice you.

I've never been the type who felt the need to call attention to himself which seems to be the chief characteristic of Harley riders (that whole "loud pipes save lives" BS is the stupidest thing I ever heard) but if that's what a guy needs to raise his self esteem, whatever works I suppose.

[bob208]

no it is not style over function is all wrong. know what you are talking about when you make a statement. the engine was set at 45deg. because that was the only magneto they could buy when they designed the engine.

I would like to know why when ever talk turns to motorcycles it ends up being a Harley bashing ? and mostly from people that never rode one. I have ben riding Harleys since 1980. still riding the 85 fxrs I bought new in 85 no rebuilds no problems. how many 85 jap. bikes are still on the road. now I like the way it sets. you don't have your butt in the air to be serviced at the stop lights.

now I don't like the load pipe things either. I have always wanted to walk up to one of those guys and ask them just what they are accomplishing. but the jap bike riders do it too.

[jonp]

I've never been the type who felt the need to call attention to himself which seems to be the chief characteristic of Harley riders (that whole "loud pipes save lives" BS is the stupidest thing I ever heard) but if that's what a guy needs to raise his self esteem, whatever works I suppose.

Nada on raising my self esteem or as a proof of my manhood. It's all what someone likes and everyone is different. I like the sound. I think I already stated that you can get twice the bike for half the price. Some like Rockets, some like Goldwings and some like Harleys. It's all good.

[TXGunNut]

No surprise there. H-D has continued to use a very old engine design, and as it sells well there is no need to up date it. Yes, there are many more more sophisticated and powerful engines out there, but how fast do you REALLY have to go?....Springfield

Yes, it's an old design with all the nostalgia and loyalty that goes with it. In today's hi-tech world some folks need a little low-tech. H-D has an engine design that doesn't have the "lope" that defines the brand. I don't think we'll live long enough to see a H-D with that engine.

[wallenba]

Kawasaki quit making the KZ1000 Police Bikes in 2005 when the tooling in their Nebraska plant wore out. Until then, I saw a lot more cops on those than Harleys and I suspect they still would be if they were being made now. When you consider the Z1 was introduced in '73 and basically the same big, air cooled, inline four design was still going more than 30 years later, that's a pretty good design and production run.

I guess that's true further west where people buy a lot of foreign vehicles. In the industrial Midwest, it's a rarity.

[TXGunNut]

I have have chances in life to get one really cheap. I really didn't need that much police attention.

Guess I might as well buy one, police already know waaaaay too much about me...and that doesn't bother me. I did background investigations for them for years, could care less. Any police attention I get would trigger a nap attack, nothing more.

[troyboy]

This is a bunch of hogwash. If you think that owners of an AMERICAN ICON don't know things that you have so graciously pointed out then we a bunch of idiots. Thanks for enlightening we the numbskulls and please forgive the stupidy.

[Four-Sixty]

Never rode a motorbike in my life. They look like fun. My Mom worked in emergency rooms for years, so I heard all the horror stories. Adjusted claims for about 9 years, and in one week I'll always remember got assigned three motorcycle fatalities. With the way folks are distracted by their smart phones these days, if you ride in any kind of traffic you are really risking your life. I would go so far as to say if you have minor children you're responsible for, you should not be allowed to operate a bike on public roads. I admit I'm biased against them, but I can add that I've seen someone hit on a bike and been one of the first at another scene of a bike crash.

Note: nowhere did I say you can't ride, just that if you have kids you should not. Who cares? Me, cause I'll be making the wage that pays your disability claim or the social security payment for your survivor benefit.

[bob208]

so again there should be a law to protect us from our selves? it is a choice we make not some for us. yes a motor cycle will bite you and bad but so do other things. we just don't hear about them as much.


you don't mention the family of 3 or more killed by a drunk driver.

[Dale in Louisiana]

I've never been the type who felt the need to call attention to himself which seems to be the chief characteristic of Harley riders (that whole "loud pipes save lives" BS is the stupidest thing I ever heard) but if that's what a guy needs to raise his self esteem, whatever works I suppose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGyKBFCd_u4

Now THAT is trolling.

Dale in Louisiana
(Former owner, at different times, of TWO harleys, a Suzuki, a Yamaha, and three Hondas)

[Tom_in_AZ]

Harley makes what they make because people want it. They sell for that price because people are willing to pay for it. Not a bad business model.

[ratitude]

HD has a great handle on their business model and it makes them a LOT of money. 20 years ago I wanted nothing other than a HD Fatboy. Fast forward to now and my tastes have changed and there is a Kawasaki KLR650 in my garage because dual sports peak my interest. HD doesn't play in that market so they're not even on my radar any more. Just get out and ride.

[rondog]

I started riding at 14, I'm 58 now. I love Harleys, particularly older ones like pre-'83. I don't really give a rat's rear end for any newer Harleys, and I despise the Harley Davidson Motor Company because of their business practices. I'll NEVER buy a new HD, only used ones, and likely nothing made after the Shovelhead era.

I rather enjoy tinkering on them and fixing problems, once they're ironed out they're quite loyal bikes. But IMO, a motorcycle is supposed to be a MACHINE. A shaking, clattering, noisy, leaking, assemblage of mechanical parts that scoots down the road, a moving adventure. Precision bikes don't hold much attraction to me, and I have no use for any kind of electronics on a bike, whether it's a stereo or electronic controls. Gimme a smoking old Panhead anyday!

JMHO, but I'm not a heavy rider or long-distance rider. If I were a tourer, it would be a different story. I'm more of a "wheee" rider, just out for short afternoon adventure rides. My poor old beat-up broken-down body won't allow otherwise. If I tried to ride several hours or several hundred miles, I'd be incapacitated for a couple of days. I could do that in my yoot, but not now.....

[southpaw]

Kawasaki quit making the KZ1000 Police Bikes in 2005 when the tooling in their Nebraska plant wore out. Until then, I saw a lot more cops on those than Harleys and I suspect they still would be if they were being made now. When you consider the Z1 was introduced in '73 and basically the same big, air cooled, inline four design was still going more than 30 years later, that's a pretty good design and production run.

Not trying to bait but curiosity has got the best of me since I don't know anything about motorcycle history. Why didn't they reinvest in new tooling? I just don't understand why one would quit making something that has been successful for so long. I supose others have done the same too tho.

Jerry Jr.

[Petrol & Powder]

Not trying to bait but curiosity has got the best of me since I don't know anything about motorcycle history. Why didn't they reinvest in new tooling? I just don't understand why one would quit making something that has been successful for so long. I supose others have done the same too tho.

Jerry Jr.

Just a pure guess on my part and I have no facts to back this up. I suspect that with BMW and HD controlling the vast majority of the police bike market, there was little room left for Kawasaki. It would take years to recover the cost of a major retooling and if they couldn't re-take a large enough market share, that could be a very costly decision.

BMW has a huge portion of the police motorcycle market overseas and they are making serious advances into the U.S. market.

[Rick Hodges]

Kawasaki quit making the KZ1000 Police Bikes in 2005 when the tooling in their Nebraska plant wore out. Until then, I saw a lot more cops on those than Harleys and I suspect they still would be if they were being made now. When you consider the Z1 was introduced in '73 and basically the same big, air cooled, inline four design was still going more than 30 years later, that's a pretty good design and production run.

Aha the police bike wars. I can't speak for any other departments but mine went to Kawasaki's for the simple reason that they were given to us. Free, gratus. Good advertising it seems. As soon as the free bikes stopped coming they bought Harley's. Neither bike was exactly maintenance free, and they were all useless in bad weather. Police bikes were great for parades and showy escorts and such....not very practical if you wanted to do police work.

[richhodg66]

Aha the police bike wars. I can't speak for any other departments but mine went to Kawasaki's for the simple reason that they were given to us. Free, gratus. Good advertising it seems. As soon as the free bikes stopped coming they bought Harley's. Neither bike was exactly maintenance free, and they were all useless in bad weather. Police bikes were great for parades and showy escorts and such....not very practical if you wanted to do police work.

I'm not a police officer and never have been, but I always did kind of wonder how much good a guy could do as a cop on a motorcycle anyway. You're awfully vulnerable on one and the kinds of bikes for police work are all so big and heavy they really won't go anywhere a car can't go. Then there's the fact that you can't carry anybody you arrest on one and a lot of other shortcomings, it seems like a waste of department money to even have motorcycle cops.

I have been kind of watching that Zero Motorcycle Company that is making electric bikes. There are a few departments out in California that have mounted patrols on them. According to what I've read, the electric bikes basically have the same capabilities that a 250-450 cc Enduro would have, which might make them useful in urban places where a light bike could chase a suspect places a car couldn't.

[richhodg66]

Not trying to bait but curiosity has got the best of me since I don't know anything about motorcycle history. Why didn't they reinvest in new tooling? I just don't understand why one would quit making something that has been successful for so long. I supose others have done the same too tho.

Jerry Jr.

Kawasaki had stopped those models to the civilian market a long time before 2005 and had gone to liquid cooled designs for the most part by the mid to late 80's. I have an '83 KZ1100, which is basically the same bike, but it was about the last year they made them. They were very good machines in their day and can still hold there own with some pretty modern bikes, but the advantages of fuel injection and liquid cooling are very real.

[andremajic]

If you want something that will hold it's value, buy gold, silver, or farm land.

[pmer]

An old Harley will teach you how to work on something. I learned about locktite and double nutting. Mechanical advance and broken wires. The best upgrades I did to my shovel head was a Crane HI 4 solid state ignition, a S&S shorty carb and solid state ignition switch. After that it was pretty much put gas in and ride. It is kick start only, I still have it but I haven't touched it for a few years now.

I have to agree they are pretty successful while being so backward. Had my share of fun with it. My uncle had a old Indian that was a in line four. He sold it before my time. He said the rear cylinder got pretty hot and would over heat.

[TXGunNut]

I'm not a police officer and never have been, but I always did kind of wonder how much good a guy could do as a cop on a motorcycle anyway. You're awfully vulnerable on one and the kinds of bikes for police work are all so big and heavy they really won't go anywhere a car can't go. Then there's the fact that you can't carry anybody you arrest on one and a lot of other shortcomings, it seems like a waste of department money to even have motorcycle cops.

I have been kind of watching that Zero Motorcycle Company that is making electric bikes. There are a few departments out in California that have mounted patrols on them. According to what I've read, the electric bikes basically have the same capabilities that a 250-450 cc Enduro would have, which might make them useful in urban places where a light bike could chase a suspect places a car couldn't.


The big bikes are all about generating revenue working traffic. They're very quick compared to today's patrol cars, they're damn hard to outrun with anything other than a superbike and they can work in places a car can't. Never seen the little electric bikes in action but I was a bicycle cop for several years until I retired. Great for concentrated patrol, working dope, crowds and bar districts. Super stealthy in the dark and I even worked a bit of traffic now and then to prove a point. Transport was not an issue, we'd stash a car with a bike rack nearby to transport prisoner and bike securely.

[alamogunr]

If you want something that will hold it's value, buy gold, silver, or farm land.

Gold was at $1861/oz in October of 2011. This morning it was at $1280/oz. Granted if you held it long enough and bought it 10-12 years ago, you might still be ahead but it just sits there and doesn't earn anything. I don't follow silver and can't afford farmland(Don't know anything about it anyway).

Most of my retirement funds are in stocks. By using a small amount of good sense, you can ride out fluctuations in the market. One way of doing this is to not spend money on all the fluff created by advertising.

BTW, despite having withdrawn significant amount from those savings, I've still got almost as much as I did 5 years ago.

Rant over! Also, andremajic, you didn't start this. Friends who are much more vocal set my teeth on edge some time ago.

[MT Gianni]

I like thumpers, currently have a DR 650 Suzuki. Next one will probably be a V-Strom. I see too many riding HD just to ride in a crowd.

[richhodg66]

I like thumpers, currently have a DR 650 Suzuki. Next one will probably be a V-Strom. I see too many riding HD just to ride in a crowd.

I absolutely love my KLR650, if you can only have one motorcycle, a big enduro is the one to have.

You looking at the 1000 V Strom? I got one when I retired, a 2004 and used it on my 75 mile each way commute for most of a year. Very reliable and low maintenance, smooth, powerful and with the factory hardbags on it, I can carry a lot of stuff. Fast too, you can kick that up to 100 MPH and just cruise like there's nothing to it on the slab. I rode it from here to Fort Knox in one day for a work function last summer, about 600 miles and wasn't particularly worn out when I got there. Any other bike I've had would have been a real challenge to make that trip in one pull like that. I still have it, haven't been riding it much. The newer ones are supposed to have quite a few upgrades.

[Ramar]

I still have my '56 Panhead, 236,000 miles, exPD bike. Ten inch over girder P&P fork and Avon 21" rubber with a rigid rear it's super light and right with all HD non essentials removed. I bought it from the LEO who received it as gift when he retired from the force. I still have all the original removed HD parts.

I can't kick it over anymore but I'm sure my wife can, but that ain't gonna happen, she'd tell me to get on the pillion and hold on......
Ramar

[pmer]

They say imitation is the best form of flattery. The big four copy the look and feel of a big twin Harley Davidson and Buel used the Sportster engine and copied a Sport Bike. My BIL had a Buel, he let me try it and it handled speed much better than my Superglide. I nailed it up to what I thought road speed should be and I was doing 85 MPH in a 55 MPH. I kept the Superglide, the sportbike has its place just not for me.

Those Pan Heads have a slightly different sound and are way cool. I rember trying to start my buddies one time because his leg was sore. I had to kick it a lot harder than my Shovel before it would finally start. Over the years I can remember columns of Harleys leaning way over in high side winds going on a straight road, pouring rain water out of my boots and seeing sparks from bikes leaning into the curves. Some might think that "potatoe..potatoe" sound of a big twin idling is odd but to me its music.

[andremajic]

Gold was at $1861/oz in October of 2011. This morning it was at $1280/oz. Granted if you held it long enough and bought it 10-12 years ago, you might still be ahead but it just sits there and doesn't earn anything. I don't follow silver and can't afford farmland(Don't know anything about it anyway).

Most of my retirement funds are in stocks. By using a small amount of good sense, you can ride out fluctuations in the market. One way of doing this is to not spend money on all the fluff created by advertising.

BTW, despite having withdrawn significant amount from those savings, I've still got almost as much as I did 5 years ago.

Rant over! Also, andremajic, you didn't start this. Friends who are much more vocal set my teeth on edge some time ago.

Not trying to convince you. Just saying gold, silver or farmland would be a better "investment" than a harley.

[alamogunr]

Not trying to convince you. Just saying gold, silver or farmland would be a better "investment" than a harley.

Agreed! Lots of things are better "investments" than a Harley. Apparently, many here consider it an investment in fun. Different strokes for different folks.

[Just Duke]

Not trying to convince you. Just saying gold, silver or farmland would be a better "investment" than a harley.

I'll have to agree. Set aside the cop magnet they are also. I don't want that sort of attention. I had enough of that with street rods in my youth.

[Just Duke]

Agreed! Lots of things are better "investments" than a Harley. Apparently, many here consider it an investment in fun. Different strokes for different folks.

I gave up fun as a youth. My agenda post "toy time" is now food production related.

[trails4u]

This is fun....I LOVE my Ducati. All the sound....and reliability to boot! :) Now, let the games begin.....