Unique & 170gr. Kieths

[HeavyLoad]

I'm looking for a good load for 357mag using unique & 170gr Kieth bullets.
Ive searched & come up with nothing solid.
I was going to try 7.5grs. for a start.

[376Steyr]

Somebody will be along with some better data, but 7.5 of Unique is too hot for a starting load.

[Ed_Shot]

My 1971 Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists for the Lyman 358429 (170 gr)

Start: Unique 5.5 gr @ 1050 fps and Max: Unique 7.5 gr. @ 1340 fps

By contrast, the Lyman 45th Ed (copyright 1970) lists for the Lyman 358429 (170 gr)

Start: Unique 4.0 gr @ 739 fps and Max: 7.0 gr @ 1157 fps.

40+ year old data.

[jonp]

5gr Unique under that boolit will bring you close to 900fps. I would not go over 7gr of Unique and approach that with a Black Hawk only. If you want something hotter with lower pressure H110 would work better.

[HeavyLoad]

Maybe I'll start at 7gr. then & see how they shoot.
And yes I'll be using a Blackhawk.

[enfieldphile]

The Unique of today may be a bit faster then the older lots. Even though the Blackhawk is very strong, I would start w/ a lower charge then 7 grains. Even if the pressure is okay, you may get some base fusing of the boolit.

[fecmech]

If you want to run that bullet at magnum velocities forget Unique. Max loads of 296/H110 and 2400 will give you an honest 1200-1300 fps with excellent accuracy using that bullet. Max loads of Unique will get you in the 1100 fps range and I would be very surprised if there was any accuracy. Unique IMO is a .357 mag mid range powder.

[HeavyLoad]

No not looking for magnum vellocity. 1000 to 1100 fps

[DrCaveman]

It will make a bit of difference if you are seating the boolit to crimp into the crimp groove, or over the front drive band

In 38 cases, elmer liked about 5 gr if i recall. If you seat the 358429 to crimp over front drive band, the capacity will be similar...so that should be a good load. Or, just use specially marked 38 cases for use only in 357 guns.

If you crimp in the proper groove, you will have room for a bit more powder before the intended pressures are reached

At a certain point, it's not about blowing up the gun, but rather working within the ideal pressure windows for a given powder. Accuracy and safety should both occur within the window.

I think with unique it is about 15-20kpsi but i could stand to be corrected

In any event, you are looking at good solid target or small game loads, 950-1000 fps or so. Reaching for more will probably not satisfy, but hey, i am no elmer keith

Safe shootin

[Lonegun1894]

I will second the advice to start lower than 7.0grs of Unique. What you are proposing to do is start at the max listed load and work up, which isn't a good idea even if you are using a Blackhawk. I'm not saying it won't be safe, because I expect it will, but why take the gamble when you can work up safely and KNOW instead of HOPE?

[dhom]

6.5 gr of Unique with a 173gr Keith SWC shoots very well for me out of a 6" GP100 and is pretty much the speed you targeted. I load them at 1.635 OAL with a very heavy crimp.

[youngmman]

I load the H&G #43, 173 gr Keith, with 5.5gn blue dot in 38 special and its a highly accurate round. Be careful in loading this bullet in the 357 because if you crimp in the crimp groove it will be to long for the cylinder since it was designed for the 38 special. H&G designed the #51 mold, I believe that's the correct number, which is the #43 with the nose clipped a little so it can be used in the 357 but its 160 gr.

[fecmech]

No not looking for magnum vellocity. 1000 to 1100 fps
Sorry, I thought by your original post of starting at 7.5 grs that's what you wanted. A 1000 FPS with Unique is easy, somewhere in the 6-7gr. range.

[HeavyLoad]

The reason I'm going with Unique is I have 3lbs of it. But I was able to pick up a pound of Blue Dot about a week ago. I was gonna see if my buddy would load me up some 12ga. Magnums with it. Any ideas on some loads with the Blue Dot & the 170's?
Ive been looking for a couple pounds of 2400 forever now. It's nowhere to be found.
I already have a lot of jacket bullets loaded up with H110 already.

[Mk42gunner]

Check the Alliant website. Or buy a current loading manual.

Robert

[HeavyLoad]

Thanks for the advise Robert but alliant's site didn't have what I wanted & I have about every current manual made & none have any loads listed for a 170 & unique.
I was able to find a load for a 168gr. Cast for BlueDot that I'm sure would work. And did a google search & found that a lot of people are saying they've had bad results using BlueDot & 357's.
I'm not being lazy, I'm just looking for opinions & others experience.

[Bullwolf]

Any ideas on some loads with the Blue Dot & the 170's?


Grabbed an old 2008 Alliant reloading pamphlet off the loading bench, double checked with a 2010 Alliant pamphlet. Also looked at the Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide online. All 3 Alliant sources show the same 170 grain Blue Dot 357 Magnum load of 9.4 grains max.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx?page=/reloaders/index.aspx&
Alliant Data:
357Mag 170 gr. Speer GDSP 1.590 OAL CCI #500 primer
9.4 grains of Blue Dot =1002 FPS (reduce 10% for a start load)

From the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition:
357Mag 170 gr. Lyman 358429 1.553 OAL CCI#550 4 inch barrel universal receiver.
Start 8.3 grains of Blue Dot = 970 FPS (18,400 C.U.P)
Max 10.0 grains of Blue Dot =1233FPS (39,200 C.U.P)
NOTE: the Lyman 4th edition cast bullet handbook does not show any Unique loads for a heavy 170 or 180 grain boolit.

This is going back a ways, but a 1992 Hercules reloading pamphlet shows:
357Mag 170 gr. FMC 1.585 OAL 6.8 gr. of UNIQUE = 1,175 FPS (33,600 PSI)
357Mag 170 gr. FMC 1.585 OAL 9.7 gr. of Blue Dot = 1,310 FPS (33,800 PSI)
NOTE: that the year is 1992, and this is older Hercules and not Alliant Data.
Reduce by 10% for a start load.

In my experience, Blue Dot does not require the use of a magnum primer.

Newer Alliant Blue Dot should not be used with light 125 grain bullets in 357 magnum.

Alliant issued a warning back around 2008, and pulled the 125 grain 357 Magnum JHP data, and the 41 Magnum Blue Dot load data as well. Apparently Blue Dot had the potential to generate higher than intended pressures under certain conditions in those two calibers

Blue Dot performs quite well with heavy bullets/boolits (158 grains or more) in 357 Magnum however.


From the Alliant Powder website:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/safety/safetynotice.htm


Safety Notice

Alliant Powder periodically reviews and tests their published reloading data to verify that our recommended recipes have not changed over time.

During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder's Blue Dot® should not be used in the following applications:

Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).

Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (ALL bullet weights).

Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause and appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.






- Bullwolf

[Hickok]

I have used this load for years in my .357 mags; 170 gr #358429 cast ACWW, 7 gr. Unique, .357 Mag case, seated to crimp groove, (Use in Smith Model 19 and Smith Model 686).

Velocity from my Model 19 4 inch barrel, 1144 fps.

[Charlie Horse]

The reason I'm going with Unique is I have 3lbs of it..

I too have invested in Unique and I'm working on a 170 grain bullet load for my Rossi 357 rifle. For my gun, 6.5 grains has been getting on the warm side. I'm using a Lee 170 grain bullet, and Felix World Famous Lube is working better than LLA.

[BCB]

QuickLoad

6.5 Unique @ 33547 psi SAMMI max @ 35000 psi
6" barrel 1420 fps (I doubt it)

Good-Luck...BCB

[curiousgeorge]

I have been using "OLD" Unique with the 358429 170 grain for my Blackhawks for around 30 years. My load is 7.0 grains. BUT, I'm using the last of the 24 lbs that I purchased at one time (3 cardboard drums @ 8 lbs each) and will be using "NEW" Unique at 6.5 grs for future loads. The 7.0 grain load was not used in my S&W model 19. It was fed the 6.5 grain load in magnum cases or 5.0 grains in 38 special cases.

As someone said in an earlier post, start at 6.0 and work up to maximum. Better than starting at maximum and finding out your specific gun didn't get the memo that it was supposed to handle that load and like it.

[Norske]

The published differences may be due to different firearms used in the development. I think S&W cylinders are shorter than Ruger's, so check the OAL when comparing load data.

[Kosh75287]

I think with unique it is about 15-20kpsi but i could stand to be corrected
Not having any way to measure chamber pressure, I'm in not position to confirm or deny. But I BELIEVE that you made a good estimate of where, on the pressure spectrum, Unique burns really well. I know that the powder gets a bad rep for burning dirty, because too many try to use it for light target loads, better fueled by Bullseye or Red Dot.
For the 170gr. bullet of interest, I think I wouldn't start with a higher charge than 6.0/Unique. Even then, I think I'd be inclined to err on the side of "longer" with cartridge O.A.L.

[USSR]

FWIW, the Lyman load data for the 358429 bullet in .357 Magnum is based on the bullet being deeply seated and crimped over the front band, as is necessary for the S&W 27/28 and some Ruger guns. If you are able to do so, crimp into the crimp groove and pressure/velocity will be slightly lower.

Don

[468]

I shoot this boolit over 5 grains of Unique or 4.5 grains of Titegroup in my K and L frames...and crimp on the crimp groove. I don’t have a chronograph, but they are satisfying to shoot.

Not recommending, just relaying what works for me.

[curioushooter]

I would recommend 6 grains of Unique for the Keith bullet. You may be get a touch more velocity pushing it but you gain little. 1100 FPS is about the optimal velocity of a solid cast boolit and depending upon barrel length that is about what 6 grains of Unique will deliver. I get just under 1100 from my 4" M19 and just over 1100 FPS from my 5" 686. It is the best all around load I can think of for 357. It offers ample penetration...will most likely perforate a deer yet it won't explode small game like a HP will. Accurate and easy to shoot without violence even in mid weight revolvers. I used to have a 60-18 that weighted only 25 OZ and this was one of the few loads with the Keith Bullet I liked. I love it in my M19.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I just shot an Accurate 36-170T today over 8.7 gr. of HS-6. 1050 fps, accurate and clean in my 5" 27-2. 12 BHN powder coated.

[salvadore]

I have limited experience with the 358429, but have used it for 40+ years, always in .38 spec. cases. A modified Keith load of 12grs of 2400 is accurate in my M-28. My attempts at a .38 spec. load convinced me that the faster the 358429 is pushed the more accurate it becomes. Information only, Shooting the 2400 load in my M-60 is surprisingly unpleasant.

[curioushooter]

Shooting the 2400 load in my M-60 is surprisingly unpleasant

Doesn't surprise me at all!

The 60 is good for 38+P type loads or a little more, not anything even near modern max loads with heavy bullets.

[salvadore]

That was me stating the obvious curioushooter, as far as the gun being "good" for modern max loads with heavy bullets, I would tire of it before the revolver.

[derek45]

178gr NOE KEITH

4” GP100

5.5 unique 863fps
6.0 unique 943fps
———————————-
5.5 win231 889
6.0 win231 953
—————————
14gr 2400 1220fps
1271 5” 686

[gwpercle]

I'm going to give you the Load that Elmer Keith (it's spelled Keith not Kieth) has given in his book "Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" .
.357 Magnum
The Keith bullet listed , Lyman # 358429 (170 gr. SWC) , bullet diameter .358 .
Maximum charge 13.5 grains of 2400 . My recommended charge is 13.0 grains 2400 .
Note , charges have been adjusted for modern solid head case construction .

Gary

[mainiac]

I'm going to give you the Load that Elmer Keith (it's spelled Keith not Kieth) has given in his book "Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" .
.357 Magnum
The Keith bullet listed , Lyman # 358429 (170 gr. SWC) , bullet diameter .358 .
Maximum charge 13.5 grains of 2400 . My recommended charge is 13.0 grains 2400 .
Note , charges have been adjusted for modern solid head case construction .

Gary

I agree!! 13-2400 is extremely accurate for me.