4198 vs 3031

[ol skool]

Rank noob to boolits here.

I have a little Handi 45-70 I'm working on and intend to make up a 338 Federal as soon as I find a suitable donor just for cast boolits.

I have a few questions.

1. Lyman #4 shows IMR4198 and IMR3031 (among others) evidently work in either rifle with a reasonably broad range of velocities/pressures. I'm leaning to picking up IMR3031 (when available) as it seems the most versatile for the given task. Any reason to consider something else for these cartridges?

2. Been reloading principally j-words for hunting using stout powders that pretty much fill the case. I've read threads and stickies about cutting, teasing, placing dacron in less than full cases. Larry G wrote in the filler sticky, "I almost always use the dacron filler in rifle cases with the slower “fast” burning powders... (RL7, 3031, 4895, etc.)... that give around 80% or less loading density under medium to heavy weight bullets..." So lighter charges of IMR3031 will need dacron? If I don't then what happens I assume is, SEE, inconsistent ignition and poor groups, hang fires, all of the above?

3. Which leads to my last question. Why all the pistol and shotgun powders with boolits? Again the Lyman book indicates pressures are way up there with pistol powders relative to the other powders and I've read here that keeping pressure under control for boolits it a good thing.

4. Ok, last question, really. To quote Larry G again from the sticky, "I don't use the dacron filler or a wad with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find one of these fast burning powders that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want and avoid using a filler with them." So a thimble full of 2400 in a 308 case doesn't need filler?

Ok thats more than a few questions. I'll stop, for now.

Appreciate it,
Steve
Oregon

[smokeywolf]

I've had good results with 3031, 4198, 5744, 4895 and yes, 2400. Never used a filler. Not knocking it, just never felt the need. 5744 burns a bit more completely at loads nearer the maximum. I prefer using 2400 or 4198 for the lighter loads. With the lighter loads, I see a need for an earlier or quicker pressure spike to seal the case against the chamber walls. 3031 is my go-to for warmer loads in more robust actions.

Larry G is very knowledgeable and I always read his posts knowing that I'll learn something.

smokeywolf

[Hickory]

In regards to question #3;

I read 30+ years ago by a noted gun scribe that the faster burning powders help to "fill & seal" the lead boolit to the bore at the instant the boolit enters or engages the rifling. This happens because of the higher pressure.

I have found that accuracy is often good with the faster powders in the 1100-1600 fps range, but not so much beyond that. But beyond 1600 fps range this is where the slower powders ( 4198- 3031 and 4895) shine.

[ol skool]

Thank you fella's.

I have an old can or two of Hercules 2400 from back in my Dirty Harry days. Still smells and looks good, will have to give it a try. I just checked and fortunately my nice and cheap Lee 45/70 dies have some load data for Herc. 2400 in the instructions.

Yup, I find Larry's consistent and nearly always quantifiable help scattered all over this forum. Have more than a few threads subscribed to with detailed descriptions for later reference from him.

[quilbilly]

Since I see a bit of it around in stores in my travels currently, you might also look at 5744 since it has a much wider range of loads without the complication of fillers at load densities as low as 40%. My 444 likes 4198 and my 308 likes 3031 both for warmer loads and neither have required fillers with load densities down to 50% (best if kept above 60% in my experience, however).

[ol skool]

5744 does show up in my references for both cartridges. Ok I'll keep an eye open for it.

[WRideout]

I use old IMR 4198 in my 7.5 Swiss, and never felt the need for filler. I have used filler before on other loads that involved smaller charges of Unique, Red Dot, etc, and have not been impressed with the results, but that may be because of my cavalier handling of the filler, i.e. I use "some" and not a measured amount. Also, I'm not crazy about smelling burned Dacron, but that's a personal thing.

Wayne

[725]

In my Handi's I use 40 gr of 3031 or 30 grs of 4198 w/ a tuft of Dacron pushing a 460420 .458 boolit in .45-70. Top end of the trapdoor load range and it is just marvelous. My go to hunters.

[ol skool]

Ok since I have some 2400 and MidSouth has 3031 in stock I'm gonna try some. That ought to cover my bases.

Are we ever going to get back to a capitalist society where the shelves have variety and different flavors? Or are we forever now stuck is the Soviet Union model were the peons buy what's available and you better be happy to have that?

Thanks for the tips and advice.

[lovedogs]

ol skook...don't know your level of experience and don't mean to sound at all condescending but one must be very careful using small amounts of fast powder in the large cases. It's easy to get a double charge and wreck a good gun...and maybe it's shooter, also. I have a good friend who I cautioned on this. He had the habit of dumping the charge and immediately seating a bullet. One day he must have gotten distracted and dumped a double charge. It totally destroyed a nice Marlin and injured his hand. When I use small amounts of fast powder in a large case like the .45-70 I finish charging all my cases then hold the loading block under good light and make sure they're all the same level. Actually, I do this with all reloading. If you see a case that's been overcharged, which shouldn't happen, you can catch the mistake before seating a bullet. A good habit to get into that can prevent a disaster.

[ol skool]

lovedogs:

Noted and thank you.

[Okie73]

I use the starting weight of 34 grains of 3031 along with 457193, RP brass and CCI #200 primers. This load is definitly on the light side for this powder as I find small amounts of unburnt powder in the barrel.
I'm shooting this combo out of a H&R Buffalo Classic and it just loves it. I have been able to clover leaf three shots at 50 yards.