32 Long Colt 5744 loads

[otteray]

I trimmed my brass so it would work in the Marlin '92 action, and have chronographed some 2.5 gr Unique loads at about 950fps.
I was thinking about XMP 5744, but since there is no printed data, I am considering the method used in the Billy Dixon Adobe Walls article http://www.levergun.com/articles/bdixon.htm using 40% to 50% of useful case capacity of a straight walled case:
__________________________________________________ __________________________
"Developing loads with XMP-5744
About XMP-5744: Serendipity is a wonderful thing. Using this powder, one can work up a safe black powder equivalent loading for almost any black powder rifle cartridge thusly: For a starting charge, choose a load that fills about 40% of the available powder space. To determine this, add XMP-5744 to a dummy case until powder level is about where base of the seated bullet would rest. Rapidly pour this charge into the case using a standard funnel. Adjust charge, as necessary.

Weigh charge. Multiply scale reading by 0.40. For example, 45-70 case with typical 405grain cast bullet seated to 2.55" OAL holds about 50 grains of XMP-5744 without compression. Therefore, a correct starting charge would be about 20.0 grains (50 x 0.4). Once a starting point is established, load a test-batch with incremental charges. For a load duplicating black powder performance, maximum charge should not exceed about 50% of usable case capacity.

Often, when using XMP-5744 at pressures and velocities lower than those generated by a typical black powder load (especially when using relatively light bullets), one will note considerable unburned powder granules in the bore. As one increases the charge, unburned powder decreases. As one reaches the charge duplicating typical black powder velocity and pressure (usually between 20,000 CUP and 28,000 CUP), this mostly disappears.

Significantly, such loads also generate sufficient pressure to properly obdurate typical (smokeless load) cast bullets. Therefore, as one approaches the correct (black powder duplicating) pressure level and velocity, three worthwhile things occur simultaneously: powder begins to burn cleanly, bullets obdurate properly (minimizing leading) and groups shrink!"
__________________________________________________ ________________________

This comes out to 2.20gr for 40% of my useful case capacity (after trimming them down to .815")
I've used this method for the '93 Marlin 38-55 and 40-65 successfully, after talking to IMR rep on the phone, who was familiar with the method.
Any thoughts on this? It is a much smaller case than the 38-55 or 45-70; hence, my concern.

[Don McDowell]

As much as I like 5744 I believe its entirely to slow and too bulky for that 32 case.
Bluedot is about as slow as I'ld go , and that should still give good speed. Bluedot works very well in the 32 hr.

PS for what its worth I've found that if you simply find the weight of a bp charge in any cartridge and then simply find 35%, that's the weight of 5744, that 9 times out of 10 will put you spot on the bp ballistics.

[otteray]

Well, since you mention BP and me not having much experience with BP (or substitute) reloading ( I only have used it in my 38-40);
I have a pound of Goex Clear Shot FFG that's just sitting on my shelf that was my late dad's.
Maybe I should try that instead?
It is a blackpowder cartridge rifle, after all.

[montana_charlie]

This comes out to 2.20gr for 40% of my useful case capacity (after trimming them down to .815")
Since that charge is about ten percent of the 20 grain charge mentioned in the article, it appears that the information relating to rifle cartridges is probably not applicable to a revolver round. The mathematical formula is probably not a good one for your application, and the powder is also probably not a good choice.

Well, since you mention BP and me not having much experience with BP (or substitute) reloading ( I only have used it in my 38-40);
I have a pound of Goex Clear Shot FFG that's just sitting on my shelf that was my late dad's.
Maybe I should try that instead?
It is a blackpowder cartridge rifle, after all.
If a powder as coarse as FFg works well in that diminuitive case, I will be surprised. Your Marlin may be classifiable as a black powder cartridge 'rifle', but your ammunition does not resemble a black powder rifle 'cartridge'.

By the way, my 1981 edition of Handloading, published by NRA Books shows the case length of the .32 Long Colt as being .916".
I don't know what's up with your Marlin's .815" chamber.

CM

[Harry O]

I have tried -- and abandoned -- 5744. It does NOT burn clean at BP pressures. What I mean by not burning clean is that there are unburned chunks of powder left in the case, the cylinder, the barrel, and everything else nearby. It gets into gun recesses where it does not belong.

I did manage to burn up the rest of my 5744 by using it in 30cal rifle loads. Getting it up to about double BP pressure gets it to burn pretty clean. However, it is no better than a lot of easier to meter powders. I won't be buying any more.

[otteray]

Montana Charlie
Well thanks for your reply.
Looks like I may be sticking with Bullseye and Unique for a while then. I just wanted to try something else for better accuracy. Maybe I'm asking too much out of this old heel based round.
As far as the modified case length, it needs to be trimmed for heeled bullets to cycle in the lever action, apparently due to case and bullet manufacturing changes over the years, I guess. The hollow base inside lubed bullet needs no trimming of the case, but is undersized for the bore by quite a bit!
Here are two of the articles from a few years ago:

http://ktsammo.250x.com/castboolits/cst4.html

http://www.gunfighter.com/cgi-bin/bbs/cowboy-a/cowboy-a.cgi?read=5589

[StrawHat]

How are you crimping the heel based bullets?

I know a lot of the 41 Colt guys would like to know who is making heel crimp dies.

[45nut]

Regarding heel crimping 41 Colts, I wonder if a Lee Factory Crimp die would do the job? Anyone tried one?

[BCB]

I have a 32 Long Colt in Marlin 1892 and I shoot the NEI heel bullet. I asked Lee about a crimping die and they said nothing they have would work and custom was not possible (?) because of the short length of the cartridge. That was my last knowledge of this crimping situation. I wish there was some way to do it--I have heard of people trying the electrical wire crimping tools!!!--don't know...BCB

[otteray]

How are you crimping the heel based bullets?

I know a lot of the 41 Colt guys would like to know who is making heel crimp dies.

I think maybe Bernie has one:

http://www.oldwestbulletmoulds.com/

"Specializing in long range BPCR designs and heel seated bullet designs with special crimping dies-(starting at $35.00) and special bullet sizing dies for heel seated bullets are available. Designs for most obsolete U.S. calibers and many modern designs as well - custom cowboy action designs in several calibers."


Ray

[Nueces]

As a clever member here has already mentioned, you can use the FCD 'upside down' by holding an inverted cartridge at the top of the die. I think the 32-20 die would work this way with the 32 Long.

Mark

[6pt-sika]

I have a pair of Maelin 1892/92's in 32 Long Colt !

I have tried 2 , 2.5 and 3 grains Unique in them ! The best was in untrimmed REM/UMC cases with 3 grains , however they will not feed thru the action untrimmed with the Lyman 90 grain heel bullet . And after trimming for some reason the pressure with 3 grains makes the firing pin drill thru the primers . With the trimmed cases 2,5 grains of Unique is about as good as it gets !

My two rifles are in very good shape . My Model 1892 was made in 1900 (by the serial number) and my Model 92 was made about 1918 . Anyway they seem to do just fine with the Lyman 90 grain heel bullet and 2.5 grains of Unique .

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/DSCN0361.jpg

The Model 1892 is the one at the top and the Model 92 is the lower one . My 1892 has a round barrel and crescent butt while the 92 has an octagon barrel and "S" butt !

For me these two little rifles make excellent squirrel rifles ! Now bear in mind that my yearly squirrel take never exceeds three or four ! But with numbers like that expected I can pretty much wait out my shots ! [smilie=1:

[otteray]

6pt-sika, I think I figured it out about the history of the different 32 Long Colt cartridges.
According to my Marlin 1897 Catalog, not only were there Short and Long Colt rimfire and centerfire, but also the Long Rifle Centerfire or Rimfire, this being the "modern" inside lubed round; the Long Colt being the slightly shorter case with the exposed bearing surface.
Seems like everyone has mistakenly been calling the two different cartridges by the same name (Long Colt) with the name Long Rifle long forgotten.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/otteray/32%20Colt/Marlin1897Catalog.png
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/otteray/32%20Colt/1897Catalogarticlepage2.png
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/otteray/32%20Colt/page3.png


This also gives old load info and recommends correct reloading tools of the era.

Kinda cool to find this information!

[6pt-sika]

Otter , I have two problems with the 32 Colt Long Rifle . One is the fact that brass is most likely non existant and the other is the fact that the outside diameter of the bullet used for this is gonna be the same .299" as th shank on a heel bullet . The base of these Long Rifle bullets is hollow supposedly making it easier for them to obturate .

I have a couple copies of the old catalogs as well . As matter of fact I have a copy of the same 1897 catalog and another from 1905 !

[w30wcf]

otteray,
Yes, those early Marlin catalogs are a treasure trove of information.:-D

I am fortunate to own one of those neat 1892 Marlin's in .32 LC. I found mine about 3 years ago. Also was lucky enough to find some brass back then which I trimmed to .78" to use the heeled bullet just like the original.

According to the 1932 Shooters Bible, the factory b.p. cartridge clocked 1,075 f.p.s. The smokeless version did 945 f.p.s. Both with 90 gr. bullets.

I have found that 2.5 grs. of 231 pretty much duplicates the factory smokeless ballistics as does 12 grs. of Swiss 3f compressed = the b.p. ballistics with decent accuracy.

I have tried other smokeless powders .....Unique, Blue Dot, 2400, 4227, Of these, the best results came with 7 grs. of 4227 (capacity load) ignited by a 1 1/2 Rem. pistol primer and that will replicate the velocity of the b.p. load with good accuracy.

These are Fuunnn guns!:Fire:

w30wcf

[6pt-sika]

I must be a glutton for punishment as I just found a third one that was supposedly by the seriel number made in 1893 !
And I think I can see a deal being made ![smilie=1:

Well after seeing some emailed pics of this one I have decided to pass ! It is a good bit on the ROUGH side !

[Don McDowell]

Since that charge is about ten percent of the 20 grain charge mentioned in the article, it appears that the information relating to rifle cartridges is probably not applicable to a revolver round. The mathematical formula is probably not a good one for your application, and the powder is also probably not a good choice.

If a powder as coarse as FFg works well in that diminuitive case, I will be surprised. Your Marlin may be classifiable as a black powder cartridge 'rifle', but your ammunition does not resemble a black powder rifle 'cartridge'.

By the way, my 1981 edition of Handloading, published by NRA Books shows the case length of the .32 Long Colt as being .916".
I don't know what's up with your Marlin's .815" chamber.

CM

Well actually CM , if you take the time and a couple pounds of powder and a bucket full of cartridges loaded with bp, and 5744, go to the range with your chronograph, it soon shows that the 35% of the bp charge for 5744 holds pretty true. Some examples it might be a bit slower than the bp charge especially in the pistol cartridges, but it'll be close enough.
One thing to bear in mind when loading for these old cartridges in iron framed guns smokeless loads seldom have as low of a pressure curve as black, and for the most part shooting those guns with smokeless needs a lot of forethought,mostly dealing with the what if's of the gun.

As for myself if the gun isn't marked specifically for smokeless loads I either leave it be or load it with black.

[w30wcf]

Don,
I have found that in the small .32 Long Colt case, a capacity load of 4227 which is a little faster burning than 5744 will = the velocity of a compressed load of black for about a 60% ratio (12 grs. vs 7grs.). For the much larger b.p. cartridges the 35%-40% rule works very well.

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

Jack thanks for that info. I've not delved into those belly gun cartridges much, but now have some good info to start with.:drinks:

[otteray]

I just got back from the range with some loads I made using a bullet, from Old West Bullet Moulds, similar to the Lyman heel based bullet.
Using loads like 6pt-sika, Unique 2.5gr, with the case trimmed to .815" for the original (I guess from the old catalogs) Long Colt ammo for the early 1900s' Marlin, I once again got groups measuring just over an inch at 25 yrds.; and 1.25" at 50 yrds.
It's got a bit of "thump" as it passes through the target and smacks the 100 yard berm a good way behind it. So I feel pretty good about that load.
Now that I know about the 4227 powder load, I'm going to have to check that out, as well!

[Don McDowell]

:-D Otterray to answer your question. First off Mr. McDowell passed away in Nov of 75, I'm Don, Mr McDowells eldest son.:drinks:
If we're speaking of the 32 long colt, yes it was introduced in a belly gun. If you are speaking of the 32 longrifle, yes it was a continuation of the 32 long rimfire, originally intended as a small game and target rifle round, Neither of the 32 rifle versions were extremely popular, and was far outclassed by the 32wcf.