Exit wounds. critters, yes, people, no

[bannor]

you typically aint dropping an animal with the shot, anyway. you are figuring on having it run for a few seconds after the hit, until it bleeds out. Repeat hit speed is irrelevant when hunting, (typically) But with defense vs people (occasionally on critters, mostly rabid ones, or maybe a dog pack) repeat hit speed is very important, cause men do often attack with numbers on their side. animals aint shooting at you, men are(sometimes). Deer are almost never attacking you (unless you've already hurt them and are inept enough to let them paw you). Men, however, are EACH shooting at you 4x or more per second. So allowing them 4-5 seconds in which to bleed out is not a good idea.

Men (mostly) ARE "shocked down', "made" to quit, psychologically, cause other than fluke hits to the spine or a brain hit, they can't be physically incapacitated in less than 4-5 seconds. Fortunately, it's not all that hard to make most men quit. So for defense, we aint looking for the round that only has 300 ft lbs to start with, and which wastes 1/3 of that power on over-penetration. Instead, we're looking for the pistol rd that (as much as possible) emulates the performance of the 223 softpoint (which is astoundingly effective on men, actually)

A 70 gr 223 softpoint bulelt bullet, at 100 yds, from an M4, is only traveling 2400 fps or so, but it hits significantly harder than 230 gr .45 jhp's do at 10 ft. :-) This is easily proven on big feral dogs, hogs, etc, Yet the .45 has 4x the "frontal area" and the .45 also has greater momentum. 70 grs at 2400 fps is just 16.8 momentum factor, while 230 grs at 800 fps is 18.4 momentum factor. All you have to do is multiply bullet weight by the velocity, and toss out the irrelevant zeroes and you will see that it's so. The difference is that the .45 wastes 100 or more of its 300 ft lbs on overpenetration (cause it won't expand at 800 fps, in flesh and blood). The 223 sp, tho, expands really well and doesn't exit. So it uses all of its 900 (or so) ft lbs of energy, and its temporary gas cavity damages more organ tissue than the bullet actually touches. hitting 4x as hard is a lot more likely to have the desired effect (on something as easily shocked as a man).

we CAN get a 70 gr .45 bullet to 2300 fps from a 4" barrel, and that larger diameter bullet ought to be worth a lousy 100 fps difference in impact speed, eh? :-)

[Bullshop]

A determined man is hard to put down. Look at men like Mr. Benovitas the medal of honor winner and how he fought with multiple wounds and his intestines hanging out. He is only one of many motivated fighting men that your theory of men being easy to put down does not fit with.
Just think about why the army went from the 38 to the 45 in the Philippines .

[M-Tecs]

Most people are shot when the fight or flight instinct dictates that flight is the best option. When the fight instinct takes over humans are very very tough. Add drugs to the mix and some become almost superhuman.

As to is a 223 soft point or a 45 jhp more effective I don't have a clue. More info than I care to read here http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

I do find this one interesting http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

I have shot a couple of deer with the 45 Colt 250 gr hollow points. The 45 colt at 900 was equally effective (if not more so) than the ones I shot with the .223.

My carry load for my 45 pushes a 230 gr JHP at 950. I have complete confidence that it will get the job done if needed.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=12

[Piedmont]

we CAN get a 70 gr .45 bullet to 2300 fps from a 4" barrel, and that larger diameter bullet ought to be worth a lousy 100 fps difference in impact speed, eh? :-)

That would be a good load for varmints under ten pounds if you could get any accuracy out of it.

[GoodOlBoy]

#1 I completely disagree with the idea that you are not going to drop a critter of any type with a single shot, it can be done, it has been done, it will be done, it don't always work. I have only once in my entire career hunting had to trail a deer. To this day I couldn't tell you why. The rest of them have had the exact same response. Bang. Flop. Flip side is none of them were shooting at me. Flip side to that is the one that I did have to trail. Like I said. I can't tell you why. With the damage he took and where I hit him it should have been a bang flop. It wasn't.

#2 When you are in the proverbial shoot out remember a few things. A. Statistically that shoot out is going to happen at less than 15 feet in the US. B. There are very few points on a human body that will result in an instant drop on a drugged up, or adrenaline-d up person. The "light switch" between the eyes and slightly above, and the spine at the neck are the "easiest" two to hit. Now try hitting those at <15 feet with the other person shooting back. It's not like shooting a paper target. Once you have played on the two way range everything changes. C. The strangest of the strange. In the statistical US <15 foot shootout there is a staggering number of shootouts in which neither shooter (or multiple shooters beyond two) are ever hit by a bullet.

#3 A kill shot is just that. A kill shot. The chances of anybody making one, in a shootout situation, is slim. The less trigger time and experience you have the slimmer your chances are going to be. Period. The liberal munchers who got mad at the soldier a few years back because he was putting an extra round into "corpses" don't have a clue what they are talking about. To quote a John Wayne Movie "You would shoot a dead man?" "No, and I ain't gonna let him shoot me neither!"

#4 Well #4 is easy. Clean version is "stuff happens". Rank Amateurs get lucky, Pros get unlucky, and some people.... well some people are just hard to kill. Sometime do a search on "soldier survives head shot". You will be stunned at the number of "insta kill" incidents that didn't. Then do a search on "closing the gap with a knife" and see just how fast a knife vs gun incident can go south when the gun wielder isn't expecting it.

Let's face it folks. We all have our favorite round we depend on to get the job done. But there is NO Magic bullet. There is NO 100% lethal each time every time no need to get it right the first time weapon. It's a toolbox. You put the tools in the toolbox, you use the tools from the toolbox, and you understand that sometimes the tool you brought ain't the best one to do the job, but it's a danged site better than no tool at all.

My 2 cents.

GoodOlBoy

[gtgeorge]

It seems to me you are trolling for this discussion starting multiple threads on the subject to present them differently trying to get the bite. Now you are comparing the .451 diameter to .224 which in no way shape or form will penetrate or act the same. They shed speed at a different rate both in flesh and air so once again apples vs. oranges?

Yep speed kills and so does weight and diameter when discussing projectiles. Those that have used the calibers and projectiles you have discussed have first hand knowledge of our experiences when hunting but will refrain from guessing at your lightweight 45 round. Perhaps you can do some live field testing to provide results?

[rking22]

I am totally and absolutely unimpresse with energy figures. Once shot a 120 lb whitetail at 60 yards with a Ruger #1 45-70 ,300 gr Rem bullet at 2200fps. Placed shot just behind near shoulder to break and exit far shoulder. At the shot, the deer reversed direction and ran like he was not hit. I saw the cross hairs on the spot at recoil and sat there dumbfounded while the deer ran 60 yards to pile up while still moving forward. When I field dressed that deer there was nothing left in its chest cavity except blood pudding ,a piece of the lower heart the size of a golf ball and pieces of that 300 gr bullet! There was no exit , so said 120lb deer "soaked up" all the energy without so much as a flinch and ran 60 yards with no lungs, no heart and no blood pressure. I won't bother with the energy calculation but it would be 300 gr at 2200fps, and the deer didn't register anything at the shot! If you want an instant stop ,disrupt the CNS, otherwise use what you got till it's empty. I vote 2 holes per shot always!

[tomme boy]

Try a 150lb doe with a 12 ga 1oz 3" slug at 5yds. Yes 5 yds. It walked right up from behind me to my left. It ran 500 yds to a swampy bottom. We found 2 spots with a little blood. We found the deer the next day. It went into the right chest and never came out. There was nothing left of the lungs or heart. Everything was jelly. The diaphragm was bloodshot also.

[jmort]

"I vote 2 holes per shot always!"

Yes, exactly, one in and one out, man or beast.

[waksupi]

What a maroon. I hate trolls that found a book.

[Larry Gibson]

Why just one shot? I don't carry a single shot pistol or rifle for defense. If o e on one the miscreant may very well take 8 solid torso hits from my 200 gr HP's at 1000+ fps before I notice the reaction from the 1st hit. And I can do a fast reload. I certainly am not going to shoot 1 or 2 shots and then wait to see what happens next.

This is not theoretical for me BTW.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

My father in law was battlefield commissioned on Iwo. One night when he was in his cups, he related how he and another Marine both with carbines emptied two magazine from 30 carbines into a juiced up Jap running at them with a sword. And it wasn't until they were able to put a couple in his head that he went down for keeps. FIL said he never carried a carbine again! Said he wasn't great with a 1911 much beyond 25 yds, but was comfortable with one out to 25 yds. Made an impression on me!
1Shirt!

[Bullshop]

My Dad was a BAR man fighting across France. He said everyone fell in behind the BAR man because he could make holes in the enemy lines.
When they made it to Germany and were fighting in the streets he said the BAR was too big and slow for street fighting so he traded for a Thompson. He said the Thompson was very effective for this type fighting and even with hits to the extremities would still take the fight out of most.
My Dad was/is my hero! He taught me how to shoot on a Mauser 22 he brought back from Germany. He could shoot too!

[rking22]

I am another son of "the greatest generation". My dad spent the fall of 42 on Guadalcanal behind a BAR. Same situation as Europe, the marines liked to hang out arround the BAR , course there was a 30 cal MG close by too:) The few, very rare, times Dad would talk about it ,I developed quite a respect for the BAR and those Marines he served with. There has to be enough power to get the job done and someone with the knowledge,ability,and determination to do it.

[Piedmont]

Another BAR story. I spoke with an older guy twenty or so years ago and found out he was a BAR man in Europe during WWII. He was part of a smaller unit that went in ahead of a larger offensive and shot up the opposing headquarters. Being a gun guy I asked how he liked the BAR. He said he hated it because when his unit opened up the BAR guy became the target for every one of the Germans, just like you always try to take out the machine guns first.

[Love Life]

My favorite movie is Jurassic Park.

[Pb2au]

My favorite movie is Jurassic Park.

In honor of your favorite movie.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rossalynwarren/jeff-goldblum-recreates-jurassic-park-shot-for-the-coolest-w?bffb

[Hamish]

In honor of LL, my special project will be to shoot my tv when they show Jurassic Park,,,,,,,,,,

I just thought someone ought to declare a Special Project since this is the Special Projects Area, and you can only hash out the OP over so many threads before it's just regurgitation.


“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”

― Albert Einstein

[shooter93]

Guys...he's just trying to educate the 30k plus humble ignorant masses who have no real experience or a lifetime of practical testing that frequent this site.....smiles.

[jmorris]

you typically aint dropping an animal with the shot, anyway.



A 70 gr 223 softpoint bulelt bullet, at 100 yds, from an M4, is only traveling 2400 fps or so, but it hits significantly harder than 230 gr .45 jhp's do at 10 ft.:smile: This is easily proven on big feral dogs, hogs,

I think I figured out why you don't think you can drop an animal with one shot. For hogs I would never use the words "hard hitting" and .223 in the same sentence.

If you think shooting one at 100 yds with a .223 gives better results that shooting one in a trap at 10' with a 45, I have to wonder how much you have hunted/trapped them.