at about Mach II speeds, the temporary gas cavity can/will damage organs, without

[bannor]

the bullet actually touching them. this is true, of course, only to a limited distance, about an inch or so. What normally is seen is that the damge of the permanent cavity is greatly worsened by the temporary cavity. In onter words, the organ IS touched by the bullet, but the damged area is MUCH wider than the actual (expanded) bullet could possibly have touched.

This is especially true of the very fragile lung-tissue. The "tunnel" of bloodshot tissues around a rifle softpoint hit, which we see when cleaning a deer, is proof that the stretch cavity can do actual damage, even in the far more resilient tissue of muscle. The liver, kidneys, spleen are not muscle, they are much more fragile than the heart (which IS a muscle).

The momentum-caliber theory MAY have some validity at sub 1900 fps speeds, but at 2200+ fps, it's all wet. especially with bullets that fragment expand.

A 25 gr /17 remington Softpoint, at 4000 fps, has the SAME momentum as a 100 gr fmjbullet at 1000 fps from a 9x18 makarov and the Makarov has over 3x the "frontal area" of the .17, too. according to hatcher/cooper, the makarov should be 3x as effective. But when you shoot some feral dogs with each, you find that the 17 drives them to the ground, and they CAN'T get up, 99 out of 100, while the 9x18 won't keep 99 out of 100 from running off.

so, SOMEWHERE on the velocity continum, bullet diameter and momentum mean a LOT less than energy transferred to the target. the only issues are CAN YOU GET such bullet speeds from a controlable ccw pistol and WHERE on the scale does this difference occur? Jeff Cooper said it happens at 2200 fps and my experience on animals concurs with that.

The old Hornet load, for decades the ONLY ammo for it, was 45 grs at 2600 fps , a rather blunt hp/sp shape. So by 100 yds, (out where the game gets HIT) it was slowed down to 2200 fps, having no more momentum than the Makarov load, yet it performs just fine on coyotes and the like. Cause it's still got 500 ft lbs out there, and the hp expands fine, making GOOD USE of that energy.

The 9x18 has 220 ft lbs of energy. It won't expand, being a "ball" bullet, so it wastes at least 70 of those ft lbs on overpenetration of the critter/man. Hitting with an "extra" 350 ft lbs is pretty significant difference. It's the difference between a .38 wadcutter and a 125 gr 357 jhp. :-) THAT is pretty obvious on animals, too.

[bannor]

the permanent wound cavity is the tissue actually torn/touched by the bullet (or frags thereof). The "bubble" created in flesh, especially by a really high velocity, high energy impact, is called the 'temporary gas cavity", or "hydrostatic shock", or "hydraulic effect", or "Mach II effect. At velocities much under mach II (2200 fps) the temporary cavity stretchs tissues, but not violently enough to damage them. they simply return to their original shape/location, other than what tissue that's been damaged by bullet's contact(the permanent wound cavity). Handgun speeds of 2500 fps+ are attainable/controlable. The issue is how heavy the bullet is, the case's powder capacity, and your willingness to suffer the horrendous blast and flash effects. :-)

[bannor]

momentum is simply mass x velocity. So 25 grs at 4000 fps is the same "100 factor (toss out the meaningless zeros) as a 100 gr bullet at 1000 fps, etc.

ENERGY, however, is derived from the bullet's velocity SQUARED, times the bullet weight.

say, 4000 fps, squared, is 16,000,000 x 25 grs, and divide that by 450,438 ( I just use 450k, it's close enough and I can usually do it in my head) and you get about 900 ft lbs. So of course it does a better job of anchoring a critter than the 150 ft lbs available to Makarov ball ammo (deducting what is lost to overpenetration) . :-) the 17 slows down really fast, so it's really only got about 700 ft lbs available at 100 yds. However, that .17 softpoint expands wickedly and doesn't overpenetrate (at all) So it uses all of its energy.

no, we can't get 4000 fps with carry pistols, but we can get 2200 fps, no problem and with bullets much larger in diameter than .17 and much heavier than 25 grs, too. :-) Like 3x heavier bullets and 6x the frontal area (ie, .45)

we need fully supported barrels and the thicker (at the web) case of the 460 Rowland to be safe with such bullets/speeds. the bullet has to be made of solid copper or aluminum, turned to shape on a lathe. A LARGE, conical hollowbase cavity helps attain the lightweight (ie, lowers pressures, gets moving easily) The cavity skirt also seals the powder gases behind the bullet well, takes the rifling well(ie, helps accuracy) makes the bullet "nose-heavy" (ie, helps accuracy)and makes room for a LOT more powder (ie, high velocity). This has been known for 40 years. It's not offered as a factory product because such bullets, at such speeds, pierce Kevlar vests.

this is not "magic bullet theory" It's proven fact, on live targets, with rifle bullets (slowed down by distance/air resistance) to velocities that CAN be attained from ccw pistols.

[bannor]

anyone who "thinks", that energy does not mean as much as momentum/bullet diameter, has no experience with the higher velocity bullets. Men aint moose or cape buffalo. men collapse just from having their testicles mashed. Even relatively small dogs are a LOT more resistant to shock than men are. :-)

btw, if you've still GOT your family's pride and joy, they've never been crushed. If they've been crushed, you've had them surgically removed, or the infection would have killed you.

[runfiverun]

a flat point will cause radial damage as it moves through flesh...

[Bullshop]

a flat point will cause radial damage as it moves through flesh...
Yes and a non expanding flat nose will carry that radial damage deeper into the wound channel due to the higher retained terminal velocity of the non deforming frontal diameter. The higher the terminal velocity the larger the diameter of radial damage around the wound channel. The higher the terminal velocity the more acute the angle of tissue displacement off the meplate and the more acute angle of displacement coupled with the higher velocity of the displaced tissue due to the higher terminal velocity of the non deforming meplate the greater the diameter of radial damage around the wound channel.
This is why a non expanding WFN style boolit with a moderate impact velocity kills so well because the damage is far greater than the wound channel itself. If that wound channel is in the proximity of a vital organ but does not actually hit the organ it can still have the same effect on the organ.
I have also read that there seems to be a velocity window that if the impact velocity stays within the blood vessels will bleed more freely than if the velocity window is exceeded. I don't know if that is true but I am convinced of what I previously stated.

[leftiye]

My reaction to all of this .22cal pistol stuff is -YOU depend on it! I, me, me, my. however tend to look at what has been most successful historically. Which is to say that overkill doesn't really exist, and bigger is mo bettah. Waaaay too much goes wrong with those kool puhjool .22s of all persuasions. And it's predictable too.

[MBTcustom]

I theorize that if you have a situation where as the boolit strikes the deer or whatever, the nose set's up a a cone of energized matter, and this nose of air sets up the energy cone. Ie, the stuff that the very nose gets moving, is not going to move in a straight line, but rather in a cone shape.
When the pocket of air has been fully compressed (like the OP said, an inch or two later) the actual meplat starts to work and sets up it's own cone of energy which of course, encompasses the first.
When the boolit expands, it also continues with it's own cone of energy.
Of course even in a HS video through ballistic gelatin, this happens so quickly and fluidly, it's hard to see. I've watched ever youtube video again and again. Anything you can find there on HS projectile video, I've been all over it like a cheap suite.

Now, I think that many bullets are designed and shot at speeds where each cone of energy is in a slightly different angle than the others which produces typical gunshot wounds in critters.
However, I think that if you can get all of them reinforcing each other and doing the same thing, you can energize more matter than you bargained for and you get a result like what you see in the link in my signature line.
I've seen the same thing with a 270 Winchester shooting jacketed. Several different rifles shooting Nosler Partitions have been witnessed by me as having blown a perfect 6" hole out the other side of the deer. The ribs looked like they were cut with a saw. A perfect, reinforced energy cone.

That's my theory, and I may be way off, but that's the only way I can explain how my 300winmag does less damage than a 270, and my 358 Winchester basically made both of them look like sissies.