Why Cast Boolits For a Trapdoor .45-70?

[Trapdoor Lee]

Sold my Springfield 1884 trapdoor 13 years ago, recently got a new to me trapdoor made in 1874. Guy I bought it from casts his own boolits, will use the $ to buy a repro Shilo Sharps.

With my older trapdoor I used a Lee Loader to load up some black powder and smokeless powder (4198) rounds. This was done both to shoot black powder and save money on ammo. I used jacketed boolits.

Then I read that both jacketed bullets and smokeless powder are hard on the old guns. Then a reloader told me that jacketed bullets are OK, not that hard.

I see on Midway they have 405 grain Oregon Trail Cast Bullets ($70 for 250), but they don't say how hard they are.

Right now have only shot a few rounds of Ultramax (lead boolit cowboy loads) in the gun. I do have cases, black powder, smokeless powder, triple seven powder, jacketed bullets, and just got 50 lead boolits (Saeco .458, 350g) that say heat treated wheel weight alloy and blue lube on the box. And they have copper gas checks on them.

I am totally confused now. So, my question is, why should I cast my own boolits for the Trapdoor?

[runfiverun]

because the ones you buy will be too small and too hard.
especially those lazercast ones, their bhn is on the magnitude of diamond grade.
their price is also in that same range.

I once seen a box of their 45-70 bullets that cost about 5 bucks less than the wedding ring with a real [albeit extremely small] diamond in it I bought my wife some years ago.
to sum it up.
a 20 dollar lee mold, a 60 dollar rcbs mold or a 80 dollar box of bullets...

[texaswoodworker]

The Trapdoors were made for cast bullets and black powder. Jacketed bullets are generally used in higher pressure rounds, though they can be hand loaded to lower pressures. High pressures in a 140 year old gun can be a bad thing. They can damage the gun, and possibly even you if the gun cannot hold up to them.

As for whether casting is worth it, yes. Guns can have variances in bore and throat diameter, even guns from the same manufacturer. This is especially true with old guns. Casting your own bullets gives you a way to get the most out of your gun. You can size a bullet for a particular gun. It will also save you a ton of money.

Casting pot - $30
Ladle - $20
LEE Mold - $20
------------------------
Total - $70

(not everything you will want/need, but the bare basics)

Lead is about a buck a pound. By the time you add what you need to harden it some, it will be about $1.50 - $2.00 a pound. You could cast 250 rounds for $20-$30 vs paying $70, and you can keep making them at that cheaper cost. If you can find a cheap source for lead alloy like wheel weights (make sure they are lead, not zinc), this will bring the price down some.

Here's a really good guide to casting.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf

[Del-Ray]

And the bullets are re-meltable as long as you don't miss the target by a mile.

Though I will say I've used the laser cast before. I got a great deal on a few damaged boxes at Cabelas, and used them to harder up some pure I had laying around.

And you probably know this, but I like to warn people, beware old brass. The ballon head style is dangerous to reload.

[MtGun44]

Soft lead cast in the Lee 405 grain hollow base boolit mold will work
the best and easiest in the trapdoors. Wolf spent a lot of time working
on this and had Lee make that mold specifically to work in them.

I had severe problems with the "too small and too hard" commercial
boolits (as run5run put it so accurately) when I first started handloading
for my trapdoor until I went with 12 gr of Unique under the Lee 405 HB boolit
and instantly it shot well. Previously, boolits hit sideways at 50 yds in a 30"
pattern, they went instantly to 4" at 100 yds, and sometimes better. The sights
aren't all that good and the trigger on that particular gun is really heavy.

Bill

[Bullshop]

For TD rifles,
jacketed bullets = no no
hard cast under size and gas check boolits = no no
Reasons.
jacketed bullets will in not too long a time will render your barrel a smooth bore. I have seen more than one TD barrel ruined this way.
hard cast and or gas checked boolits are generally undersize in relation to TD barrel dimensions. Commercial hard cast may go .457", .458', and even .459" where as most TD barrel grooves will start at .460" and may go well up from there.
Where an under size soft cast boolit as small as .457" or maybe even smaller can still shoot good if the powder charge and or burn rate if sufficient to obturate the boolit base to make a seal. Example in my TD with .462" groove I shoot a soft PP boolit patched to .454" with excellent accuracy. The redeeming factor is -SOFT BOOLITS- that allow obturation.
Be kind to your TD by keeping jacketed bullets out of it and feed it soft boolits of not more than BHN-9 and if using smokeless powder keep the burn rate at not slower than 2400 especially if using boolits that are less than groove diameter. Do this and your TD will reward you with fine shooting and will still be doing so when you pass it on.

[M-Tecs]

Bullshop is 100% correct. The barrel steel in the TD's is very soft. Jacketed bullets wear them faster.


The SAAMI max for 45/70 is 28,000. This is safe for TD's. http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm - Note some manuals list 18,000 as there max loading for TD's.

I currently have 5 originals - the barrels slug .460, .461, .461, .463 and .465 so all standard commercial cast are undersize.

Interesting read on TD strength http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?61694-Trapdoor-Strength

[dh2]

I shoot a springfield trap door it is old 140 years old, machine work in that day was not what it is to day My bore is .461 a bit from .457 so like M-tecs said "all standard commercial cast are undersize" every gun I load for I am after the best performance it will deliver, Why is this Oldy but Goody any different. I also go for low pressure .

[Trapdoor Lee]

Thanks very much for the input. No jacketed boolits for this gun. Will have the gun slugged. Bore looks shiney, but the riffling looks thin to me - maybe like it is close to a smooth bore already?!

What should I tell the gunsmith to do?

[Bullshop]

I have gotten such barrels very well worn from jacketed bullets to shoot reasonably well by using pure lead grease groove or very nearly pure lead boolits and moderate charges of fairly fast burning powder. Black powder would be good too. Either this or pure lead paper patch boolits can bring new life back to such a worn barrel.
You would think the opposite to be true that a hard boolit would hold the minimal grooves better but its not so. The soft boolit that will obturate to sufficiently fill the grooves to press against the barrel equally for the entire bearing surface is the only thing that has worked for me with such barrels.
I suppose that with a hard boolit starting a couple thousandths over your actual groove diameter might work as well but we are talking about a boolit that may need to be nearly .470" in diameter starting out.

[ogre]

I have a RRB in 43 Spanish that also had a shiny bore with thin appearing rifling. Several (many) cleanings was what it took to restore it. It shoots great!

[MtGun44]

Try the HB Lee over 10-12 gr of Unique before you spend any
time on anything else.

Bill

[MT Chambers]

Soft cast, bright lights, and country music.........

[Larry Gibson]

The TD is the rifle that made the West safe for the Winchester to "win"............

They won't shoot any bullet accurately unless the command "hostiles to the front" is first given.....then the "soft cast, bright lights and country music" come into play.........

:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[John Allen]

I second this statement Soft lead cast in the Lee 405 grain hollow base boolit mold will work
the best and easiest in the trapdoors. Wolf spent a lot of time working
on this and had Lee make that mold specifically to work in them.

Here is how I load my trapdoors, I start with a standard primer, then add the blackpowder via a drop tube. I then add a tablet backer wad followed by a lube cookie, then topped off with a playing card wad (so the lube does not stick to the bullet). I then seat the lee hollow base bullet but do not crimp it. I then follow up with a taper crimp and a quick wipe off to get any extra lube off.

I also use Gatefeo lube on everything and it has worked great.

[BruceB]

I still haven't fired my "new" M1884 Trapdoor that I bought several months ago. Its bore is in very good condition, bright and unworn. However, I now have 30 rounds loaded with dead-soft Lee 405 hollowbase bullets over 5744 and dacron, and should get a chance to try them out on Thursday. The long delay is because I am dependent on others for transport, and also I can't do any casting in my apartment.

My very good friend, NVCurmudgeon, gets me around, out to the Carson City shooting range, and also lets me abuse his hospitality to the extent of allowing me the use of his casting bench (with MY equipment, meaning he has to move all his gear to make room for my stuff.)

I also have that Rapine mould, #461485, which I don't have any memory of buying years ago. Larry has no knowledge of the design, but I'm very hopeful that it will cast larger than the Lee or my Lyman .45 rifle moulds. (Obviously, I've never cast a bullet from it,,,..yet!

My next sojourn at NVC's bench will definitely produce some of the Rapine design. I'll post the results.

Interesting bullet.... truncated cone nose, six grooves, and a plain base. It might just do very well in my 1884 and Shiloh .45-70 rifles.

[JWT]

This site has inspired me to shoot one of my trapdoors. I am looking to the greater experience here for a little advice.

1. I have two trapdoors, so for now I think I will try just one. The first is an 1891 vintage (sn532xxx) and the second is 1892 (sn538xxx).
1126861891
1126871892
I am inclined to use the older gun since the metal and wood are not as good. The bores are similar. Any opinions?

2. Can I safely pound cast these old guns?

3. The 45 mold I have is a gas checked Lyman 457423 385gr. Should I keep this mold for my 458 WinMag and get the Lee?

[MtGun44]

Don't waste your time sweating trying to fit the boolit to the throat and
all that stuff. This is not a target rifle and the answers of how to go
directly to accurate ammo is well known. Experimentation for fun is
one thing, but if you want to just shoot it with good accuracy, here is
the answer. Get the Lee 405 HB mold, cast some up from 20:1 or 30:1 lead:tin
and load over about 10-12 gr of Unique.

Why are folks resisting the known shortcut to loads that work in these rifles? Wolf did a ton of
work, got Lee to make the mold and multiple folks are reporting that this just works, and
a WHOLE lot of other stuff DOES NOT.

Save time - try this recipe first.

Bill

[smokeywolf]

MtGun44 knows of what he speaks. A hollow base lead boolit with Unique under it will nearly always perform well in a Trapdoor.

smokeywolf

[John Allen]

Don't waste your time sweating trying to fit the boolit to the throat and
all that stuff. This is not a target rifle and the answers of how to go
directly to accurate ammo is well known. Experimentation for fun is
one thing, but if you want to just shoot it with good accuracy, here is
the answer. Get the Lee 405 HB mold, cast some up from 20:1 or 30:1 lead:tin
and load over about 10-12 gr of Unique.

Why are folks resisting the known shortcut to loads that work in these rifles? Wolf did a ton of
work, got Lee to make the mold and multiple folks are reporting that this just works, and
a WHOLE lot of other stuff DOES NOT.

Save time - try this recipe first.

Bill


Bill, are you using any dacron filler or egg crates to hold the powder against the primer?

[BruceB]

Well, in reference to Bill's impassioned advice to use Unique.....

1) I have six pounds of 5744, and less than ONE pound of Unique. The Unique that I do have is earmarked for handgun loads, where it (of course) shines.

2) I selected the 5744 load from Larry Gibson's writings and experience, in the firm knowledge that he knows whereof he speaks.

These days, with all the shortages, we have to apportion our limited resources in whatever ways seem to make the most sense.

If the supply chain ever burps forth some more Unique, I'll be glomming some forthwith...... experimental loading is always interesting and entertaining.

In the case of the Trapdoor and the Lee 405 hollow-base though, the experimenting seems to be already largely complete. Further refinement will take into account the differences between individual rifles, but the principles are certainly well-established.

This has been a very timely and interesting thread for me, as I sit here with my NEW (to me) M1884, still unfired since I bought it a while back.

[Larry Gibson]

BruceB

Dang, am I gonna have to come up there and shoot that thing for ya?

:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[M-Tecs]

Since my collection of Trapdoors is growing I will have to try the Lee (type) 459-405-HB. I am not much of a fan of Lee molds. Does anyone else make something close to this in a better quality mold?

[BruceB]

Actually, NVCurmudgeon and myself have plans to go to the range THIS THURSDAY to git 'er done.

I have no less than THREE new-to-me firearms needing their maiden shooting in my hands. One is the Trapdoor, but I also recently acquired a cut-down 1898 Krag in great condition, and an as-new S&W Model 39 9mm.

All three should have their first innings this week; *I* have to quit going to gun shows and local gun shops! My "sales resistance" is apparently just about nil..... much as it has been all my life, when it comes to guns.

[smokeywolf]

Bruce, I hope you'll share the results of your time on the firing line with us.

[Piedmont]

This site has inspired me to shoot one of my trapdoors. I am looking to the greater experience here for a little advice.

1. I have two trapdoors, so for now I think I will try just one. The first is an 1891 vintage (sn532xxx) and the second is 1892 (sn538xxx).
1126861891
1126871892
I am inclined to use the older gun since the metal and wood are not as good. The bores are similar. Any opinions?

2. Can I safely pound cast these old guns?

3. The 45 mold I have is a gas checked Lyman 457423 385gr. Should I keep this mold for my 458 WinMag and get the Lee?

1) Either rifle will be fine.
2) Yes. I use a .50 cal round ball. They are three groove so you need a V block to measure or can get close by rolling the slug in your micrometer.
3) Get a new mold. Either use the hollow base as the other fellows suggest or slug your barrel and get a matching bullet mold and larger than standard sizer die. My Trapdoor has a .464" groove dimension. I got an over sized mold and sizer from the get-go and have always had good results. So you don't need a hollow base mold, but if you don't want to mess with an over size mold and sizer die, the hollow base Lee lets you cheat and it will bump up on firing. It is a good way to go.

[Littlewolf]

m-tech rcbs has a hb that works good and lyman has the 457193pb 405gr. the lyman being the one I use in my 1873 model trapdoor

[BruceB]

Bruce, I hope you'll share the results of your time on the firing line with us.

Unfortunately, I don't expect much in the way of stellar results, but that's because my vision has deteriorated badly under the onslaught of diabetes.

Even so, I still enjoy getting out with the rifles, and some days even the iron sights seem to work fairly well.The sights on the Krags and Trapdoors are MADE for young eyes, and mine don't fit that description any longer!

Years ago, I swore that my M14s and M1As would never see a glass sight..... but harsh reality is setting in, and maybe, just maybe....

I have a Bushnell 3200 on my DSA FAL, and although it makes a heavy rifle even heavier, it IS nice to see what I'm firing at. Handgun sights are also difficult, but it's still good fun.

At the last Crossroads of the West show, not only did I find my "new" Krag, but also one of those steel targets that ALWAYS has one 6" gong upright..... hit that one, and the target will be knocked over.... bringing up another gong for the next shot. It's like a king-size caltrop, which was a small steel device dropped on roads to puncture tires (or, in earlier days, to cripple horses). It was constructed so that there was always one sharp point upright. The shape is much like those children's "jacks".

We'll give that item a test-run next time out as well.

[Lead Fred]

<----- see that pic
Thats the lyman original trapdoor 405gr mold.

I have three 45/70s (no TD, yet :-), this is my black powder mold. At 100 yards they clover nicely.
It shocks folk at the range when I hit the 500 yard gong with a big puff of smoke to follow.

Ive never shot a store bought round yet, and I tried Remy 405gr PP semi jacketed. They fly all over the place.
I use them as fodder out the lever gun.

Ive not found a combo that works as good as the holy black out of the long barreled single shots, vs the lever gun.

[smokeywolf]

Unfortunately, I don't expect much in the way of stellar results, but that's because my vision has deteriorated badly under the onslaught of diabetes.

Even so, I still enjoy getting out with the rifles, and some days even the iron sights seem to work fairly well.The sights on the Krags and Trapdoors are MADE for young eyes, and mine don't fit that description any longer!

Years ago, I swore that my M14s and M1As would never see a glass sight..... but harsh reality is setting in, and maybe, just maybe....

I have a Bushnell 3200 on my DSA FAL, and although it makes a heavy rifle even heavier, it IS nice to see what I'm firing at. Handgun sights are also difficult, but it's still good fun.

At the last Crossroads of the West show, not only did I find my "new" Krag, but also one of those steel targets that ALWAYS has one 6" gong upright..... hit that one, and the target will be knocked over.... bringing up another gong for the next shot. It's like a king-size caltrop, which was a small steel device dropped on roads to puncture tires (or, in earlier days, to cripple horses). It was constructed so that there was always one sharp point upright. The shape is much like those children's "jacks".

We'll give that item a test-run next time out as well.

Although not cursed with the diabetes, YET. My old eyes aren't so good and the hands shake, A LOT. But, like you, none of that stops me from enjoying using these works of art and engineering to send projectiles down range.
I only have 2 rifles with scopes and one of those is a 22. I have however, become more reliant on the peep sights.

smokeywolf

[StrawHat]

Since my collection of Trapdoors is growing I will have to try the Lee (type) 459-405-HB. I am not much of a fan of Lee molds. Does anyone else make something close to this in a better quality mold?

I believe there have been a couple of GBs for the hollow based boolit.

I have a NEI 450-405 double cavity mold that casts a 405 grain HB boolit.

[Trapdoor Lee]

OK Bill and all, you have convinced me that I need to cast my own boolits! I will forget about slugging the trapdoor and order the Lee 459-405-HB mold. And some lead, lead pot etc. Should be fun.

But Bill, I can't find any Unique! For the smokeless rounds, what about using 30 gn of my 4198?

[Bullshop]

Or you could first try samples of about 30 different 45 cal designs available from The Bullshop including the Lee 405 HB.

[M-Tecs]

Or you could first try samples of about 30 different 45 cal designs available from The Bullshop including the Lee 405 HB.

I used Bullshop for samples before ordering a mold. Great product, great price and great service.

[StrawHat]

Or you could first try samples of about 30 different 45 cal designs available from The Bullshop including the Lee 405 HB.

Not a bad idea at all!

[Trinidad Bill]

These Unique loads do work great! I use them for 38-55, 32-40, 45-70, and 30-30 (not to mention my 12 gauge, 9mm, 45acp, .40sw, etc). Unique is a great powder.

I am fortunate enough to have a bit of Unique but I know it is hard to find. I popped 8lbs from Cabelas several months ago and I am glad I did.

If you can, try it.

[jonk]

I think that to a certain extent, the issue of copper jacketed in trapdoors (and similar old rifles) is an overstated issue. Yes, the jacket is ten times harder than lead; but the lead core of the bullet still ensures that the friction against the old soft steel (which is still quite a lot harder than the jacket) is minimal. That said, I have seen photos of trapdoor barrels with the rifling stripped from shooting jacketed- or so they say that's what happened. I wonder if it wasn't a case of shooting a barnes x bullet or other total copper slug that just wouldn't swage down to fit the said barrel?

So I play it safe (and cheap) and use cast lead, and will keep doing so.

[Wayne Smith]

No, Jonk, it's not just Trapdoors. Early Winchesters, early Colts, and early Smiths have the same problem. I think the issue is less relative hardness and perhaps more relative wear resistance, but the effect is there.

[M-Tecs]

I wonder if it wasn't a case of shooting a barnes x bullet or other total copper slug that just wouldn't swage down to fit the said barrel?


The ones I personally have seen this happen to were in the late 60s early 70s. This was long before copper slugs started to be used.


No, Jonk, it's not just Trapdoors. Early Winchesters, early Colts, and early Smiths have the same problem. I think the issue is less relative hardness and perhaps more relative wear resistance, but the effect is there.

100% Correct.

I do also believe gas erosion from undersize jacketed bullets is a large part of the equation.

[MtGun44]

It is easy to forget that folks can't just go and get the powder that they want!
Sorry about that oversight. Bruce - great reason to use 5744, I have been
mentally stuck in the past where any powder is as close as the nearest gun
store.

It sure is a shame to have to burn 30 grains of something to do the same
work that 10-15 will do when a pound of anything costs around the same
price - especially with the high cost of powder these days, but if it isn't
available - it just isn't. I wonder when the powder supply chain will get
back to normal, too.

I'm glad I keep at least 3 cans of Unique on the shelf, same with several
other favorites. Some rate the 8 lb jug.

Here is a suggestion for folks that want a good hunting load - oddball
powder choice, but gives trapdoor range pressures and moderately
high velocities, with great accuracy for me. Unfortunately, it takes
a bunch of powder - but if you have buckets of W748 laying around -
I have had great success with 57 gr under the RCBS 405 GC or the
Remington jbullet 405 (or Speer of same wt). I used this hunting
in Africa and it worked extremely well. It runs 1750 fps in my
Marlin SS GG, probably faster in a trapdoor due to slow powder and
long barrel. This was pressure tested for Brian Pierce, and he says
it is OK for trapdoors, too, due to the slow powder generating low
pressures - even though a lot is burned.

Good luck with the other powders - I know Mike Venturino really swears by
5744 in all the old BP rounds. Unique always seems to be easy for mild
loads - but with the caveat, as I am reminded, IF YOU CAN GET IT!

Bill

[Trapdoor Lee]

Whoa! Yesterday I picked up a pound of Unique from Sportsman's Warehouse! But I don't have any official load data for Unique for the 45-70. So Bill, where did you get this 10 to 12 grain loading? And where can I find the writings of this Wolf fellow?

[M-Tecs]

Lyman #45

[kenn]

Whoa! Yesterday I picked up a pound of Unique from Sportsman's Warehouse! But I don't have any official load data for Unique for the 45-70. So Bill, where did you get this 10 to 12 grain loading? And where can I find the writings of this Wolf fellow?

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

this site has a bunch of low-power loads for a bunch of different calibers and has unique. in there for a handful of bullet weights. It's not trapdoor but the velocities are quite low and based on lead cast (hard) bullets so it will get you close. I'm going to try lee 405gr HB.