Cooper said that "a 40 gr. 22 cal spitzer, at 2200 fps will deliver adequate power"

[bannor]

He said this in Cooper on Handguns, referencing the gas op Husquavarna 9mm. He said that the gun should rebarreled to some caliber offering the above ballistics and bullet diameter because it would. "pierce any practicable armor and still deliver adequate stopping power, by means of hydrostatic shock". Well, Mag Safe offers a 45 gr 9mm bullet, at 2200 fps. the .36 bore has 2x the "frontal area" of a .22 bore, so this MagSafe load, by Cooper/Hatcher, should be amazingly effective. Their 357 Sig load, using this 45 gr bullet, is 2500 fps. :-) SAME momentum, btw, as a 250 gr bullet at 450 fps. Would you like to bet that the 250 gr bullet, (even if the heavy bullet WAS a.45, and the 45 gr bullet .36 bore) has more effect on, say, big feral dogs? :-) you'd lose a lot of money betting that way, I guarantee it.

[bannor]

I use the 450 fps velocity because it's got the same momentum, with a 250 gr bullet, as the 45 gr bullet has at 2500 fps. it IS apples to apples, regarding the momentum/theory. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's not so, you know. It just means that you've been duped by people like Cooper and Elmer Keith.

[Alan in Vermont]

Is there a point to all this?

[Cap'n Morgan]

Elmer Keith shot an awful lot of different critters in his time... Maybe, just maybe, he knew what he was talking about.

[Artful]

Cooper said that "a 40gr 22 cal spitzer, at 2200 fps will deliver adequate power"
He said this in Cooper on Handguns, referencing the gas op Husquavarna 9mm. He said that the gun should rebarreled to some caliber offering the above ballistics and bullet diameter because it would. "pierce any practicable armor and still deliver adequate stopping power, by means of hydrostatic shock". Well, Mag Safe offers a 45 gr 9mm bullet, at 2200 fps. the .36 bore has 2x the "frontal area" of a .22 bore, so this MagSafe load, by Cooper/Hatcher, should be amazingly effective. Their 357 Sig load, using this 45 gr bullet, is 2500 fps. :-) SAME momentum, btw, as a 250 gr bullet at 450 fps. Would you like to bet that the 250 gr bullet, (even if the heavy bullet WAS a.45, and the 45 gr bullet .36 bore) has more effect on, say, big feral dogs? :-) you'd lose a lot of money betting that way, I guarantee it.


I use the 450 fps velocity because it's got the same momentum, with a 250 gr bullet, as the 45 gr bullet has at 2500 fps. it IS apples to apples, regarding the momentum/theory. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's not so, you know. It just means that you've been duped by people like Cooper and Elmer Keith.

So your quoting Cooper as authority and denigrating him as being wrong all in the same thread?

I went thru my speed demon days long ago (when cooper was still alive and some of it was fresh stuff). With enough speed you can do quite a bit of damage. But thru the years I have learned it more about knowing your target and shot placement - 22 LR has killed more critters than you would be able to envision.

as far as PDW round look up the


.224 BOZ

The .224 BOZ was developed by Civil Defense Supply, located in the United Kingdom, and was begun as a Special Forces ammunition project for police and military use. In short, the concept was to design a new pistol cartridge that would deliver significantly more power than the current 9mm Parabellum as used in both handguns and submachine guns. The two main requirements were that the cartridge be adaptable to existing firearms and that it be able to penetrate CRISAT armor (1.5mm titanium plate reinforced with 20 layers of Kevlar) and generate a PIH level of 0.6 or greater.

It was decided that the bullet chosen be one of proven design and so the 5.56mm round as used by NATO forces was selected. Not only was there a significant amount of data already collected on this bullet design, but it was also available in numerous configurations such as armor piercing, tracer, ball, and frangible. In looking for a starting point for the cartridge case both the 9mm Parabellum and the .40 S&W were looked at and then quickly dismissed as possible candidates because both lacked the case capacity to generate the required energy and velocity. The 10mm Auto was then chosen both for its power potential and existing firearm platforms readily convertible to the new cartridge.

The original test-bed for the .224 BOZ was a Colt Delta Elite. Using lightweight 50gn 5.56mm bullets velocities ranging from 1,750fps to 2,200fps were obtained. Eventually the Glock 20 was chosen as the foundation for the .224 BOZ PPW (Personal Protection Weapon) due to its "positive lock between barrel and frame." (It must be noted though that in this caliber a 5.5" barrel is considered "compact" and a 6.5" barrel is "standard.") For the carbine/submachine gun platform the HK MP5 was selected Not only is the MP5 series of submachine guns one of the most popular around the world, but it is also available in 10mm (though no longer in production).

[Pinsnscrews]

the only problem with your comparison is that Cooper was comparing a .22 caliber to a 9mm. In your example, you are comparing a 9mm at 45gr with a 9mm at 250gr. With both objects carrying the same frontal area at impact, the heavier item will carry its momentum further than the lighter item.

[shooter93]

I'll never claim to be an expert but......big bullets moving at moderate velocities.....stop things.

[leftiye]

It's always a mistake to view obsolete arms as poor killers. A .58 cal. muzzle loader minie ball will bring stark inderstanding to almost anyone/anything with rude rapidity. An obsidian arrowhead will too. It is often quoted as "dead is dead." Small bore high velocity arms are best with barnes brass bullets or with solids. Otherwise they often won't get to where they were hoped to go to.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I hear what you are saying but it isn't even close to being right. If you compare the Taylor Knock Down values for the above loads you will see where you are going wrong. Momentum is only part of the Formula. There is more to it.

The Formula is,,, Bullet Dia. x weight in gr. x velocity,,, Divided by 7000.

Your 45 gr 9mm load at 2200 fps has a value of 5.0 TKD The 45/250 at 450 is 7.2 TKD and a 45 boolit probably won't clear the barrel at 450 fps anyway so that is not a valid comparison of anything..

That same boolit at 900 fps is 14.46. TKD and at 1200 fps it is 19.3 TKD!

A .30-06 150gr at 2700 fps is 17.82 TKD

But a 250 gr .45 slug will penetrate completely thru an Elk at 900 fps,,, and a 150gr .30-06 bullet at 2700 fps won't.

The large boolit kills by poking a hole thru the game, which promotes bleed out. The smaller faster bullet kills by inducing shock, and destroying tissue. a .45 gr 9mm bullet at 2200 fps will do neither since it hasn't got enough weight versus it's frontal area to penetrate deep enough to do any real damage.

One final point,,, Elmer Keith might have been a little FOS (most knowledgeable people are) but the things nobody could make a valid argument against is his knowledge of guns, ballistics, and their uses for Hunting.

Hell, He invented most of it! And with 50+ years in the field he proved all of it.

Even Jeff Cooper would defer to Keith's judgment in matters of Big Game Hunting.

We all should just pay attention. I tend to listen when he speaks. Spoke.

He was one of them that knows, and anyone who disputes that is a fool. To say "he forgot more than most will ever know," is probably a gross understatement.

YMMV

Randy

[OuchHot!]

My recollection of Col. Cooper's commentary was that it specifically referenced a .17-22 cal projectile and potential 3sh burst capability. When I first saw the 5.45X28FN, I figured that someone was listening.

[bannor]

You aint read his book, obviously. Jeff was NOT comparing the .22 spitser to the 9mm. He was stating that IN GENERAL the .22 would suffice, IF it was moving at 2200 fps or faster. Yes, it's very possible to be quite right about some things and very wrong about others. I guess you're NEVER right, hmm? :-)

who said anything about big game hunting? not one word about it in my original post. that's some baloney that YOU guys dug up, probably because you don't have any other frame of reference. You hunt big game with a ccw pistol, right? :-)

[plmitch]

Is there a point to all this?


Now thats a good question.

[country gent]

Well Kieth grew up ina time and area where handguns were still worn daily by people. He knew alot not only about hunting but self defense as well. But testing was easier and more accepted on animals than ...... . Cooper served and did alot of research into these issues also. While I never saw this article He was a big suporrter of 40 and 45 cal handguns and 30 cal up rifles. He also did alot of hunting both here and africa. The practical use of rifles and pistols was coopers forte Kieths was performance and what to expect. Then to make it even more confusing we can throw Oconnor and Jordan into the mnix also

[seaboltm]

When I was much younger I squeezed velocity to the max. Had a Marlin 1894 in 357 magnum. I drove 125 grain Hornady XTP's to the max, and beyond, using as much H110 or other such powders to sqeeze the last fps from the cartridge. Shot a medium sized hog behind the shoulders (did not hit bone) with the 357 rifle. The poor animal was severely wounded and in much pain. A single shot from a Ruger BH 44 magnum ended his days. Upon cleaning the animal I noticed the 125 grain bullet had penetrated only few inches before coming apart leaving a huge wound. Would the 357 wound have killed the hog eventually? Maybe. But I do know after that I switched to 158 and 180 grain pills in that Marlin 357, and I had much more satisfactory results. So there are a lot of factors besides mass, frontal area, and velocity. Bullet construction and actual impact velocity matters, a lot. So does intermediate barriers, and oh yeah, don't forget shot placement. That should be on the list somewhere. I have been in the military and law enforcement, and I have seen first hand a number of bullet wounds. So how does this impact me today? I feel safe carrying a 9mm for concealed carry. If I were on the street again, I would prefer something like a 40 or 45 simply because those bullets have more mass and tend to go through glass and sheet metal better, if the need is there. I would much prefer a rifle, 223 is fine with me. For close in work, 12 gauge is king. A 12 gauge slug is devastating, and is is MASSIVE, SLOW, HUGE FRONTAL AREA, and TENDS TO STAY TOGETHER. The efficacy of the 5.7 FN round has been tested by terminal ballistics expert Dr. Gary Roberts and comes up wanting, even when compared with the "lowly" 9mm.

[cainttype]

In the OP "pierce any practicible armor" is the problem being addressed. In the search for body-armor piercing solutions that could be adapted to existing handgun and sub-machine gun platforms it was an obvious conclusion to end up with small diameter projectiles at high velocity. Larger 9s, 40s, and 45s are not as capable of penetration through armor/kevlar because of their diameter. The potential of room-to-room fighting involved in urban warfare, hostage rescue, etc. had firearms designers and warplanners seeking an immediate solution to body armor at close range, in confined scenarios.
Cooper was never a small-bore fan, preferring to address them as "poodle shooters".

[leftiye]

I'd guess that a 12 ga slug into body armor would remove a threat even without penetration. Possibly even killing the one receiving the impact. In other words this all is a solution looking for a problem.

[cainttype]

The OP is quoting Cooper. Taken in context, Cooper was discussing penetrating body armor with a cartridge that could feasibly function in handguns (and subs). He was NOT giving an opinion on the best options available, or able to include rifles and shotguns in the discussion.

[mikeatl]

Five threads on same subject, who is he trying to convince, us or himself?

[DeanWinchester]

I've never been smart enough to understand all arguments on this matter. I do understand a few things.
1- holes kill stuff
2- big holes kill stuff faster
3- meplats make big holes
4- slow & heavy penetrate better than light and fast
5-big meplats at penetrate deep make holes
6- refer back to #1

[gtgeorge]

The 5 threads should be a clue of what is being done here.

[seaboltm]

Yep. 5 threads, he has been here two months, has 91 posts, and is throwing down the gauntlet. Don't get me wrong, I have not been here long, but I have not tried to be controversial either. What's that smell? Troll???

[RoyEllis]

Yep. 5 threads, he has been here two months, has 91 posts, and is throwing down the gauntlet. Don't get me wrong, I have not been here long, but I have not tried to be controversial either. What's that smell? Troll???

That's why he's gone to my ignore list, too full of BS & argumentative. + OP thinks he's the "fastest man alive w/1911".....I'll stack up a young relative of mine on that bet, Matt McLearn of Payson AZ. In 1993 he won both USPSA Nat. Champ & IPSC World Champ. now runs M2i Custom guns (building & tuning race pistolas):smile:

[waksupi]

I figured he was another kid drifting in from ar.com. Just the type who would get their self ventilated in the good ol' days. I know, and have known fast men with a gun. I doubt he is in the class.

[leftiye]

(if you wave yer butt in the wind, someone will likely shoot at it)

[blaster]

Time to ban bannor.

[shooter93]

I think everyone is not understanding the young lad.....he's not here to cause trouble but rather to educate the ignorant masses that inhabit this site.....smiles.

[Shooternz]

I don't know much about body armor in my part of the world we don't have the need to wear it,
An acquaintance used to run a security company in the the US one of his jobs was demonstrating
body armor, on a trip home he showed us some video's of his demo's, Him being shot with a 9mm
when ask if they ever used the .45 A.C.P his answer was no it puts you on your butt and bruises your ribs, so I guess big and slow puts things down without penetrating on man type targets, maybe enough to discourage further aggression. Robert.