1891 Argentine Mauser

[jugulater]

I recently bought a clean all matching 1891 Argentine mauser. i bought this gun with intentions to shoot cast out of it, but now i seem to be stuck. i want to use the LEE 185gr .312 diameter boolit. im not sure if i should use gas checks or not and i am not entirely sure about load data for it. alot of people say 303 brit data will work. with powder being so scarce my selection is limited, my LGS has a good amount of IMR 4064. would i be able to use IMR 4064 with an un-gaschecked bullet for a low recoil "fun at the range load" ?

[UBER7MM]

Jugalater,

Welcome to the forum. I believe you'll want to use a faster burning powder for non gas checked loads than IMR-4064. Also you may find diminished accuracy without the GSs on the back of your boolit.

This is a good article to read with regards to cast loads:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

Lots of posts regarding pistol powders in military cartridges. Fillers vs. non-fillers is a great topic for debate.

I hope this helps,

[jugulater]

I will be buying a can of 4064 anyways just due to the fact that i may use it for other loads. most of my cast boolit experience is with the 50-70 and 45-70 using soft lead and black powder so im new to driving cast lead with smokeless. And yes that article helps alot, looks like i may just gascheck and not worry about low recoil loads. Although i am concerned about this older 2 lug action.

[Scharfschuetze]

Good choice Jugulator. Other than the short neck, the 1891 and it's round is a great addition to any cast boolit shooter's rifle collection.

I'm a huge fan of SR 4759 in the mid size 30/31 calibre military rounds. If not available, I like 4198 although I'm not adverse to 4227 or Reloader 7 either.

My favorite boolit in my 1891 is the lyman 314299. At 1800 fps, it is about 3" to 4" high at 100 yards and zeros up at 150 yards or so. It routinely groups into 2 MOA and often better all the way out through 200 yards. I'm sure that it'll do it out further if the wind is calm, just haven't had a chance to put it on paper past 200 yards.

Try 115 grain plain base 32/20 boolits over a Bullseye class powder for your lower velocity plinking loads.

[jugulater]

i have taken a liking to my 1891, that and i got it for such a good price. it was priced cheaper than a cut down Styer m95 that sat directly next to it! Alot of people brag about these guns holding 2 MOA and by the looks of my barrel i shall soon be among them. Im not sure if any of the mentioned powders are available, but i am writing this down so if i see any i will grab it. Im going to give the LEE mold a shot just because of my past success with LEE molds.

[Scharfschuetze]

I have to confess that I actually have three of 'em. I bought the first (sporterized) one for my son when he was growing up and we shot 32/20 level loads through it.

My other two are matching numbered rifles, both made in 1894. The bores differ a bit in diameter, so what shoots well in one doesn't necessarily shoot well in the other.

[UBER7MM]

I will be buying a can of 4064 anyways just due to the fact that i may use it for other loads. most of my cast boolit experience is with the 50-70 and 45-70 using soft lead and black powder so im new to driving cast lead with smokeless. And yes that article helps alot, looks like i may just gascheck and not worry about low recoil loads. Although i am concerned about this older 2 lug action.

Jugulater,

IMR-4064 is a good choice for those 100 year plus military cartridges, for both 'j' & cast projectiles, IMR-4895 as well. I've used both in other calibers, but with gas checked boolits. Generally speaking, consider about half case capacity for cast for these mid burn rate powders. You mileage may vary. Start out at the low end of your manual and work up using caution and common sense. I don't look for velocity, but tight groups as my end result. Read up on fillers too, especially for the faster burn rate powders.

Read as much as you can on this forum and others. Every rifle is different. You'll find that slugging your bore will help tremendously to determine the proper size diameter boolit for your rifle. Some guns just won't like a particular combination of cartridge components, or you might have a j-gun only. Or you may have to change your boolit/powder combination. COAL is another factor. I have a friend that insists on having his cartridges crimped to factory specs. So experimenting for an optimal distance from the lands in the throat will not be determined.

(BTW: "j" means copper "jacketed" projectiles and is generally considered profanity on this forum. I'm using the dreaded term solely in an educational context. Mea culpa.)

I hope this helps,

[UBER7MM]

i have taken a liking to my 1891, that and i got it for such a good price. it was priced cheaper than a cut down Styer m95 that sat directly next to it! Alot of people brag about these guns holding 2 MOA and by the looks of my barrel i shall soon be among them. Im not sure if any of the mentioned powders are available, but i am writing this down so if i see any i will grab it. Im going to give the LEE mold a shot just because of my past success with LEE molds.

You can't go too wrong with a Lee mold, for ~$20 bucks. Before you soot it up and use it, hold the handles tight and hold it up to a light. If you can see a gap, then send it back. I had this problem with one. Midway replaced it. The replacement mold had the adhesive seal broken, so someone at the warehouse verified the replacement passed inspection. The C312-185-1R should give you years of service. I'd gas check them for optimal performance.

[jonk]

Nominally- according to spec that is- these have a .313" bore. I have/have had 5 of them, and currently have 3 (sold 2). ONE of them is on spec and shoots the Lyman 314299 gangbusters with 25 gr of 5744. The others were all in the .315-7 range.

Given the Lee is a .312 I can only think you're going to have difficulties unless you beagle it. So slug the bore and go from there, or leading and poor accuracy are in your future.

I see you are new. Beagling would involve taping some aluminum tape shims in the mold face- search the site, lots of info.

Regarding load data, you seem to be so new to cast, I'd recommend NOT starting with 4064. Cast loads are entirely different than jacketed. Get yourself a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, and go over to the castpics.net site and look at load data there.

Some loads to try:
-11 gr Red Dot
-20 gr SR 4759
-16 gr 2400
-25 gr 5744
-10 gr Unique
-10 gr Trail Boss

If you really want to try the 4064, yes, gas check it. I'd start about 30 gr and work up in 1 gr increments watching the accuracy and watching for leading. You can usually get 4895 to group around 30-35 gr in most .30 caliber guns, and 4064 is just its slightly slower cousin, so I'd guess you might do ok in the 32-37 gr range. If you have a chronograph, use it- you want to keep under 2000fps.

[jugulater]

Slugging the bore will be the next thing i do. i have a good amount of experience with jacketed bullets, but i realize cast lead is an entirely different animal. on another note i have shot lead from older big bore guns, usually using black powder. as i mentioned earlier i will be writing this down for future reference. i learned a long time ago to write it all down. It isnt so much i that i really wanted to use 4064, but it was available in large amounts at my LGS. Thank you all for the great information. Included just a few shots i took, nothing fancy. crest has been ground and the stock has a TON of handling marks.

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[462]

That boolit .002" over throat/groove dimension, checked, and Unique should work very well for your stated purpose.

[Buckshot]

.............The M91 Argentine is my favorite milsurp rifle. It's military ammunition isn't far behind the 308 Winchester in performance, if that is what you're looking for. It is one of the full size military cases, like the 8x57, 303, etc so there is a LOT of reloading data for it. The 1891 was made by Ludwig Lowe and their successor, DWM. Production ran from about 1892 to 1903 and their barrel dimensions can vary. With cast you really need to slug your barrel to find out what you're dealing with. For simple cheap plinking I really like the Lee C309-113-RF over 10 grs of Unique or 8 grains of Red Dot. That is so long as the slug fits. Last one of those Lee moulds I bought was a long time ago and they used to drop at .314" or so. Newer ones might not be so generous.

..................Buckshot

[jugulater]

Yes i have fell in love with these early mausers as well. I wont be pushing this old gun very hard due to its age and the fact that it has no gas release ports for when a case ruptures. The lee molds i have used have all thrown .002 over, but it could just be me. i will know exactly what to do after i have slugged it.

I have some older reloading guides and books on factory ammo and they all seem to indicate the 7.65x53 is faster than the .308 win at 300 yards or so. would this be correct? seems unlikely that such an old design actually out performs a somewhat modern round.

[jonk]

I wouldn't be surprised. It has a slightly greater powder capacity than the .308. Remember the .308 was designed to approximate the 30-06 but with a shorter case and shorter stroke on a semi auto; and the 30-06 is a contemporary of the spitzer 7.65.

As a side note, the round itself, albeit with a round nose bullet, was chambered some Turkish and Belgian guns as well, dating to 1889. As such, it was one of the earliest Mauser smokeless rounds. The fact that it still stacks up against any other round of similar caliber speaks a lot about the ammo design branch of the Mauser firm. But then again, if you consider its contemporaries- the .303, 7.62X54R, and 8X57, they all survive to this day in sporting and even some military use. Really only the US, with its underpowered 30/40, was behind on the times, soon rectified with the 30-06.

[jugulater]

I had read about the 1889 Belgian and 1890 turk guns built on this action firing the same/similar round. the Belgian gun had the barrel shroud like the commission 1888 had. Im not sure if the turk guns had a shroud as well. All this talk about Turkish mausers makes me miss my turk m1898 small ring.

I may take this gun hunting this season if i can develop proper loads for it before then. this powder shortage is really causing some issues, but it seems to be letting up.

[Larry Gibson]

Ok, guess I'll post a picture since I'm kind of fond of the M91 Mauser. The CIP Pmax for the 7.65 Argentine is 56,565 psi (peizo-transducer or strain gauge). I've pressure tested several lots of Argentine ammunition and they ran just under that as does the Norma and Hornady factory ammunition. I also tested some 1935 FN made 7.65 Belgian milsurp and it ran 53,200 psi(M43). My own jacketed hunting load (150 Hornady .312 SP over H380) runs right at 54,000 psi out of "Evita", the scout scoped M91. Bottom Argentine is my M1909.

Larry Gibson

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[jugulater]

I have a question about brass, is it worth the trouble making 7.65x53 from 30/06 cases? i have about 200 30/06 cases, mostly winchester and remington. i wouldnt have to invest in brass if i could form them. i dont own a 30/06 any more sadly so all this brass is almost useless to me.

[UBER7MM]

I have a question about brass, is it worth the trouble making 7.65x53 from 30/06 cases? i have about 200 30/06 cases, mostly winchester and remington. i wouldnt have to invest in brass if i could form them. i dont own a 30/06 any more sadly so all this brass is almost useless to me.

It takes me about 30-40 minutes per case to cut 30'06 down and reform to a Mauser case. I haven't actually timed the process, but for me there are multiple steps all by hand and not fast. 200 might take me a week and a half. I also fire form as my final step; so add in a trip to the range.

The last time I bought a bag of 50 brass cases it was a about $40, if memory serves.

Weigh how long it takes you to cut down the brass against how much would 4 bags of 50 7.65x53 will cost you. Then you'll have an idea if cutting down 30'06 is worth while.


I hope this helps,

[Scharfschuetze]

I use an RCBS case forming die to form my cases and it goes pretty fast at only a couple of minutes per case with a fine blade hacksaw, file and bevel tool.

Larry (a few posts above) recommended I get a small tube cutter to speed the process up. While I bought the small tube cutter, I haven't tried it yet as all the Lake City brass I made years ago is still fully functional with only one lost case over hundreds of loads. With the tube cutter, I think that you could easily forgo the forming die, but Larry can probably elucidate further on that aspect.

Another 1891 aficionado who doesn't reload gave me 60 Prvi Partizan once fired cases a few months ago, but I haven't yet incorporated them into the line up.

[jugulater]

I am fine with spending time making the cases as long as i can expect them to last. A trip to the range is no issue, its a seven minute drive to the nearest outdoor range. i have looked at both the FL sizer only method and the form die method, i will most likely get the form die later down the road. but for now i will give the FL sizer only method.

[dualsport]

Count me in as a '91 fan. Just bought #3, a cut down Lowe sporter. Has the coveted Buehler safety I've been trying to replace on my other sporter which blew a primer and destroyed the safety. Anyway, keep your brass straight, low pressure here, normal or full pressure there. Don't mix or a headspace thing can come up. (I know now). I form my 7.65 from range pick up .270 in an RCBS trim/form die. Very easy and fast. Then a pass thru a Lee FL die and finally fireform. Perfect fit then. Congratulations on your new baby. Guns identical to yours have won serious cast bullet matches. EDIT: I use a Dremel tool to just BARELY erase the original factory caliber markings on the case head-avoids mistaken identities.

[arclight]

I've made them from cut-down 30-06 cases. First, you either use a trim die or a ruler and a hacksaw and cut them to length. Then you want to really lube them up well. It's best if you can get some Imperial Die Sizing Wax. Otherwise, regular case lube works. When using a full-length die, I find I need to back it out several turns and do the forming in 3-4 steps if I want to keep the force required down to a reasonable level and avoid stuck cases. I've also found that a first-pass through the bullet seating die can help start the forming process.

You may also want to anneal the cases before you start.

Or you can buy some brass from Grafs.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/776?

Even better, you can get PRVI Partizan loaded ammo for a reasonable price, shoot it and then reload:
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12582


Arclight

I have a question about brass, is it worth the trouble making 7.65x53 from 30/06 cases? i have about 200 30/06 cases, mostly winchester and remington. i wouldnt have to invest in brass if i could form them. i dont own a 30/06 any more sadly so all this brass is almost useless to me.

[jugulater]

Very good information on the process, i really appreciate all the help. I have seen the PRVI brass from grafs, but ill go ahead and give forming them a shot. I haven't done any competition shooting yet, but i may go find my way into a few competitions soon.

I have never had to remove head stamps before considering 41 swiss cant be easily confused with 348 win. But i will this time to keep the worst from happening..

[dualsport]

I have several RCBS form and trim dies. They are the cat's meow. Inexpensive, last forever. Make your own brass for life. Easy schmeezy.

[arclight]

In any case, this is a pretty easy rifle to load for, once you get some cases. Load data for 300 Savage is a close fit, as is 7.5x55 Swiss and .303 British. And also the lower-pressure .308 loads. The 308 data is helpful if you need a starting point for surplus powder.

Also, don't worry about getting the bullet seated up to the edge of the rifling. At least in the 1891s I've loaded for, the throat is so long that you'll never touch the rifling.

Arclight

[jugulater]

The extra long throat surprised me when i did a chamber cast. Thank you for clearing up the similar data that i can use, it should be extremely useful. Im going up town later today to pick up some powder, primes, and just about anything else i cant live without.Ill hopefully have my 1891 up and shooting by the weekend. Ill be sure to post my results any pictures of any groups i achieve. You all have been so very helpful. This is probably one of the nicest forums on the interwebz. And also the best place to find help reloading for my forgotten warriors.

[Scharfschuetze]

Yes, that long "Mauser" throat is the total opposite of the Swiss 7.5 leade that can be almost too short.

I like to load my cast boolits out to touch the rifling, but I can't do it with the 1891 if I want to use it as a repeater as the OAL is too long for the magazine. Fortunately the diameter of the nose of my 314299 (.313 X .303) boolit seems to make up for that with rewarding accuracy from magazine length ammo.

For long OAL ammo, the 1891 doesn't use the controlled feeding of later Mausers so single loading is a snap and that's how I reload and shoot most of my ammo for 'em.

[arclight]

Speaking of the reapeating action, the one I have is already sporterized with a scope and chopped-down stock. Has anyone tried modifying the magazine release on their sporter to make loading/unloading easier? This is helpful when I'm hunting and drive around a lot.

Arclight


Yes, that long "Mauser" throat is the total opposite of the Swiss 7.5 leade that can be almost too short.

I like to load my cast boolits out to touch the rifling, but I can't do it with the 1891 if I want to use it as a repeater as the OAL is too long for the magazine. Fortunately the diameter of the nose of my 314299 (.313 X .303) boolit seems to make up for that with rewarding accuracy from magazine length ammo.

For long OAL ammo, the 1891 doesn't use the controlled feeding of later Mausers so single loading is a snap and that's how I reload and shoot most of my ammo for 'em.

[jugulater]

If im correct two variations exist in magazine design for the 1891. The earlier model had a spring release, but i am not sure how it operates as i have never examined one. I know that my 1891 that was built ~1896 has a large bolt retaining the magazine. i have a book around here that goes into detail about dismantling the 1891 Mauser and similar models. im not sure how one could modify this to be easily removable, but i am sure it could be done

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Here is the bolt i am speaking of. it appears to be stuck as i cant get it to budge at all.

[autofix4u]

The magazine lock bolt should not come out. Just turn 180° the latch is easy enough to modify for field use. Remove the trigger guard and drift the pin out that holds the latch in. The "button" is center drilled already just drill and tap, install suitable larger button and reassemble. I have two set up this way, works well. The spring tension on the mag lips is not always enough to hold all five rounds in a loaded mag when not installed in the rifle.

[autofix4u]

To clarify my statement all 1891 mausers have the spring loaded latch inside the trigger guard. The later ones have a lock bolt in front of the mag. Inside the front of the trigger guard there is a small round flush button, intended to be used with the tip of a bullet to release the mag for cleaning only.

[troyboy]

If you are reforming from 06. Decap and tumble. Cut where the shoulder meets the neck,Deburr,Anneal,lube,then resize in appropriate die(I use Lee). Trim to length(again Lee trimmer). See if it chambers(mine wouldn't). If they do great, clean lube and primer pocket then load. If not mill shellholder until it chambers then proceed.

[troyboy]

Sorry forgot to mention the shellholder(again Lee) I used the #2 not the #3 that came with the dies(Lee).Also had to get an 8mm expander and turn to .312 as the expander that came with the die set was 308. Size of your bore may different so plan accordingly.

[Scharfschuetze]

Sorry forgot to mention the shellholder(again Lee) I used the #2 not the #3 that came with the dies(Lee).Also had to get an 8mm expander and turn to .312 as the expander that came with the die set was 308. Size of your bore may different so plan accordingly.

Yes, dump the Lee .308 expander (intended for jacketed bullets) and pick up or order a Lyman M die in 31 calibre, or preferably the RCBS rifle neck expander die with interchangeable expanders. I use the .311 expander for my .313 sized boolits.

I generally use a Redding 308 Winchester bushing die and neck size the 7.65 neck to an internal diameter of .311 and then I use the Lee universal rifle belling die to form a slight bell so as not to damage the .313" cast boolit. Works a treat and barely works the brass for long case life and works well for single loaded ammo. I size the down to .310 internal diameter for ammo to be fed from the magazine.

Be careful in trimming down your shell holder if you need to set your case's shoulder back. I managed to actually pull the brass rim of a case through my thinned steel shell holder after taking .006" off of it. I ended up shortening the die in order to set my shoulder back the needed amount after forming the cases from LC Ought Six brass. Hopefully that's not a necessary step for most of you.

[jugulater]

That should save me some trouble, although i did not buy LEE this time around. I went with rcbs mainly because my LGS had a good set on the shelf and they were priced well. I will see if i have the same issue when the stuff i ordered gets here. I have had good experiances with both LEE and RCBS tools. I am almost certain i will have to cut the shell holder down due to how clean my chamber is. I read of guys on another forum chambering reformed brass then wacking the bolt with a mallet to size them the rest of the way, sure does not sound like the best idea to me.

[Buckshot]

..........I made quite quite a few 7.65x53 Arg cases from 30-06, as at the time the only REAL Argentine brass was Norma, and I was poor :-) I do not shoot any full book load jacketed rounds from my 2 rifles and carbine. Just cast loads at 16-1800 fps stuff. The little Engineer Carbine with the 190 gr Nu-Judge slug even at 1800 fps sure let's you know the primer has done it's thing. They're very nice firearms. Some folks dislike the extended magazine, and I suppose for military use the staggered flush magazine is better. However to me it sure does make for a 'Racey' looking rifle, but then again that's just me :-)

...............Buckshot

[Larry Gibson]

That should save me some trouble, although i did not buy LEE this time around. I went with rcbs mainly because my LGS had a good set on the shelf and they were priced well. I will see if i have the same issue when the stuff i ordered gets here. I have had good experiances with both LEE and RCBS tools. I am almost certain i will have to cut the shell holder down due to how clean my chamber is. I read of guys on another forum chambering reformed brass then wacking the bolt with a mallet to size them the rest of the way, sure does not sound like the best idea to me.

Many think the 7.65 Argentine and the 7.65 Belgian are the same. While cartridge dimensions are generally pretty close to the same the problem is in the chambers. Over the years I have found the Belgian chambers were close to .010" longer in headspace than the Argentine, especially the later M91 and M1909 Argentines. I've also found the Belgian bores and groove diameters were .001 -.004" larger than the Argentine bores and groove diameters. Thus many of the dies made for the 7.65 Belgian (such as the Lee dies were) sized the cases with headspace too long for Argentine chambers. I have found it much better to take .010" off the base of the "Belgian" FL die to size the cases for the Argentine than to thin the shell holder.

"wacking the bolt with a mallet to size them the rest of the way" is an answer to a question that shouldn't have been asked.........because it really didn't need to be asked........

Larry Gibson

[Noffsinger]

I have developed the following loads for the 1891 Argentine Mausers that I own. One has been sporterized a bit and the other is full military configuration.
All loads have proven accurate in both mine and my 2 shooting partner's rifles.
Chronograph data provided by "Shooting Chrony F1 Chronograph" at 12 feet from the muzzle, all are 10 shot strings.

7.65x53 Argentine [* = Military LC .30-06 base case]
Bullet Wt Powder Chg Velocity Stats
125 gr Ex-treme Plated Rel-7 25.0 1667 (1635/1699 = 64 SD) {cases "sooty", load needs to be increased}
125 gr Ex-treme Plated Longshot 15.5 (Not chronographed, but very accurate)
190 gr Lyman #311644 Longshot 15.5 1745 (1730/1772 = 42 SD)
200 gr Lyman #314299 WC867 47.7 1984 (1975/1998 = 23 SD)
200 gr Lyman #314299 WC867 47.7 2022 (2006/2053 = 47 SD)*

[jugulater]

I am going to put some loads together this weekend, but i have no idea when i will get time to go to the range. Ive been trying to talk my uncle into letting me shoot on his rather large chunk of property that is right dont the street if he allows me to use his property as my personal range everyone will know where to find me after work LOL. Either way i plan on having a fun time with my 1891. I hope the AR-15 boys at the range dont get to worried about me firing off a 100+ year old antique! LOL

[jugulater]

It seems that brass sized in my RCBS FL sizer die chambers perfectly in my 1891. I am assuming i got very lucky here. Did anyone here buy the RCBS set and have to modify the die? The box is marked 7.65x53 Belgium mauser. I thought the belgians called it 7.65x54?

[blixen]

All I ever shoot in my Argies is SR 4759 -- 18-20 grains -- pushing a Lee 185gr .312 diameter (or bigger) with great results. I seat the boolit out as far as possible in the neck. (Usually I single load.)

[jugulater]

I wish i could get my hands on some sr-4759. Or some 5744. The powder shortage is letting up here so i may get some soon. One bit of rather ironic news is that while scavenging brass at the local range i found 50 fired Prvi 7.65x53 cases.. in the garbage can!

I also got to shoot some groups at the 50 yard target. Still getting use to my new toy.