.45 mold advise for whitetail

[Brett Ross]

Hi all. As Iowa just eliminated our late clean up deer season. This was the season where we could use a center fires in certain areas. My choices are now shotgun (not interested) or pistol. The problem is Iowa’s pistol, laws. The bullet must be of an expanding type, soft lead won’t cut it, I called and ask but a lead hollow point will. I find my interest lies now in taking game with boolits only, which I cast my-self. I’m thankful I took my first deer in twenty years, last year with my 95-34. As I am a bit financially embarrassed right now do you experts think the Lee TL-452-230-2R would be ok for deer .45LC Ruger BH , if I had Buckshot hollow point it?

Thanks for the advice

[RoyEllis]

By the time you HP that, it's gonna drop around 215gr or so. Do you already have that mold? If not, I'd suggest either 452-255RF or 452-300RF Lee as a better bet, you can HP it & stay 240gr+ and would be simple to have spare flat pins to cast as originally made. But that's just my opinion, I like heavier revolver boolits to hunt with. PM DougGuy, he does alot with 45LC loads & probably knows more than I do.

[Brett Ross]

I do have the mold. I guess I knew HPing would take away some mass but was unsure of how much. I will see what it cost to have the HPing done . I suppose the $20 extra in mould cost won't break the bank

[sixshot]

Brett, PM me your address & I'll give you some 270 gr. HP's.

Dick

[osteodoc08]

I'm not big on RN designs for hunting unless it's a RNFP.

id suggest 45-270-SAA variety for your purpose. I'm sure there are folks here that could swap you out some.

[DougGuy]

There is currently an open group buy for the Lee 310 improved, but they extended it also to the .45 caliber boolits. The improvements are better crimp grooves and a gas check shank that actually fits the checks.

This would be for the Lee C452-300-RF boolit which would be another choice of mold to HP. It would likely go 280gr with a large HP since these run in the 320gr neighborhood lubed and checked with copper. The mold maker is also offering checks with it. I am not sure if he would be able to HP the mold but it may be worth a PM to find out.

Thread here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?241573-55-430-310-FN-%28Lee-Copy-improved%29

This is an excellent hunting boolit for the .45 as it comes from the Lee mold. IF your mold drops them big enough. SOME of the molds drop small or so I have read, and SOME of the molds have issues with the checks fitting tight enough or so I have read. At this time I currently do not cast but I am very tempted to get in on the group buy for .44 and .45 caliber since this WFN GC boolit is all I use in both calibers anymore.

There is also a Mihec group buy that (I am not aware of the status of this group buy) is for a very nice looking HP design of basically the same boolit but delivery times might be quite a ways off. No one has replied in the thread for quite a while, if you could scare up one of these, you'd be "In Like Flynn!"

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?133289-462-Hammer-GC-Mihec-Cramer-HP

Boolits of this weight aren't necessary as in "must have" for taking whitetails, my guns just shoot really well with them and once sighted in I just stick with what shoots good and kills fast.

[Beerd]

Brett,
Do you have any other moulds? Maybe you can hollow point the bullets with a drill after casting. (Just thinking out loud)
..

[Brett Ross]

Sixshot , Thanks for the kind offer but I find the casting, load development process as fulfilling as the taking of the critter its-self. This is the reason I began hunting again after a 20+ year lay off, the new challenge. I think I will get with Buckshot to see the cost of HPing a new LEE mould to the cost of a custom mould. The wife retired from her job this year and losing 50% of the household income has been a bit of a shock to my lifestyle. Beerd I have considered drilling but searching here, the process seams to give rather inconsistent results.

[Alferd Packer]

Brett,
You could add a fat meplat to that RN increasing the drop weight and then a shallow HP.

[MBTcustom]

FWIW, I shot a deer with that very boolit fired from my ML with a sabot three years ago.
She was 20 yards away, and I shot her through the neck. Dropped like a sack of potatoes.

The alloy was 50/50 COWW/SOWW dropped on the bench. There was no HP on it.

In your case, I would recommend sighting your rifle with the standard slugs, and when you're sure you have a good load, go ahead and use a file to bust a flat on the nose (we do this all the time with .22 LR) and use your drill to put a small HP in there (just enough to appease the rules).
Don't over think this. I've killed more deer with a soft RN boolit stuck in the right spot than any other boolit design. Cast 'em soft and make them accurate, then don't take shots you can't make.
Look at all the old time crusty old ammo. It's almost all RN designs. They work just fine if you do it right, and a simple 1/16" hp drilled about 1/4" deep is only going to help and keep the law off your back.

[Blammer]

a Dish HP like this should work well for you. IF you get a Lee mould and have it HP'ed, you can ask for a few diff pins to try. I'd recommend the dish HP.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7691.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7691.jpg.html)http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7697.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7697.jpg.html)

[runfiverun]

I'd also suggest a shallow dish instead of a deep hollow point.
I'd also start with a 250gr mold, you'll lose about 10 grs in the process of the dish, keeping enough weight to do the real work.
for the alloy to work properly you'll want a low antimony alloy, otherwise shearing can cause penetration issues.

[MT Chambers]

Simplest would be to get the excellent 457122 the "gould hollowpoint" and size it down to whatever size you need, shoots great out of my FA .454 Casull.

[micky_blue]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=251&osCsid=h82q4aq155mq1ko42v84tlehg5

They are in stock too

[Bohica793]

I have a 45-270 that is a great mold that I got from a recent group buy.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?216940-MiHec-45-270-RCBS-Rerun-brass-two-or-four-cavity-HP-or-solid

You might want to PM Mihec and see if he has any leftovers.

[skeettx]

Guys, guys money is at issue here
Yes the mould you currently have will work just fine, WITH IN PROPER RANGE,
With a hollow point addition which makes it legal in your state.
That way YOU get to cast YOUR bullets to take game.
Is that what you wanted answered?
Mike

p.s. I would suggest 35 yards or less iron sights, 50 yards or less with scope
given my old eyes :)

p.s.s. 45 Colt Ruger Black Hawk and 10 grains of Unique with the 210 Hollow Point should
be quite a combination.

[dk17hmr]

How big of a hollow point do you need? If you have a drill press just drill a small hole point in your bullets. I built a jig at one time to hold an unsized bullet centered in my drill press and ran a #2 center drill down to give a nice dish hollow point. If a 1/16" hollow point is "good enough" to the law I would just cast them soft and drill a hole in them.

[MBTcustom]

How big of a hollow point do you need? If you have a drill press just drill a small hole point in your bullets. I built a jig at one time to hold an unsized bullet centered in my drill press and ran a #2 center drill down to give a nice dish hollow point. If a 1/16" hollow point is "good enough" to the law I would just cast them soft and drill a hole in them.

LOL! Great minds think alike Doug!
I offered to make him that very tool via PM! What a hoot!
Nothing new under the sun eh?

[dk17hmr]

LOL! Great minds think alike Doug!
I offered to make him that very tool via PM! What a hoot!
Nothing new under the sun eh?

I guess I should have read your post lol

I don't know how they can say a cast bullet of soft alloy isn't expanding but a hole pointed cast bullet will (even if its cast out of hard alloy).....

[MBTcustom]

If in doubt, keep a DeWalt drill in the truck with you. Game warden starts giving you grief about the 1/16 hollowpoint, whip out the drill and open it up to 1/8" and ask him "how's that? can I go hunt now, or do you need me to make it look like a flying shot glass?" LOL!

[jonp]

Brett, I have both a 454190 and a C452-300rf I'd let you borrow to cast up some boolits for deer season. Both are suitable for whitetail. Let me know if you would like one or the other for a month or two. If you can get a tool to make them hollow point you are in business.

jonp

[Brett Ross]

All, thanks for the kind offer 's. Time is on my side ,I think I will go with Tims advise and see how they shoot. If it does not work out, I will look into breaking open the piggy bank. On a side note, I am not sure who makes up these rules, but have found in conversations with them, they are clueless.

[Jaymo]

It's a shame that so many state wildlife departments are run and staffed by people who are clueless about wildlife, hunting, fishing, and shooting.
We end up with absolutely stupid regulations created by absolutely stupid people.
A soft lead, flat nosed boolit absolutely is an expanding boolit (physically but not legally in your state
Local, state, and federal governments need a colonic.

[gtgeorge]

I believe I would ask if a soft point is considered expanding and then state that yours is the same lead without the jacket. I know it is likely a waste of time but who knows? Then if they want a hole to call it expanding the smallest hole I could drill as shallow as possible would be my choice. Should be able to make something to center the bit and then remove as small amount of weight as possible. Then shoot one into some wet phone books and carry the expanded bullet in your pocket for proof.

[quilbilly]

I can't help but wonder if your state allows muzzleloaders to use a 45 cal with a patched round ball. If they do, do you think your state wildlife bureaucrats (I hesitate to call them experts) would know a contradiction if it came up to bite them. A lot of the deer that graced my freezer in the last 25 years dropped like stones when hit with a 45 PRB that weighs 130 gr.

[gunseller]

Now you are going to make me do some fallow up as the state has told me, in the past, that any exposed lead boolit is legal to use. I have been killing deer in Iowa sense they first started letting us use handguns with cast SWC or RNFP boolits. The litest boolit I have used is a 215 swc .430 at arounf 700fps. The deer was just over 100 yards. One shot through the heart and it was tag time. The longest was just over 200 yards with a 260rnfp .452 starting at around 1100 fps. Deer are not hard to kill with cast boolits. Your mold with a HP mod will give you a 215 to 220 boolit. this will be enough weight to kill any deer walking if you can put a hole where it needs to be.
Steve

[jonp]

It's a shame that so many state wildlife departments are run and staffed by people who are clueless about wildlife, hunting, fishing, and shooting.
We end up with absolutely stupid regulations created by absolutely stupid people.
A soft lead, flat nosed boolit absolutely is an expanding boolit (physically but not legally in your state
Local, state, and federal governments need a colonic.
When I got my degree in Wildlife Biology in 1992 out in Arizona I found that the AZ Game and Fish just like the US Fish and Wildlife was being taken over by people that had no experience in the outdoors hunting, trapping or fishing let alone much shooting time. It has only gotten worse as time has gone on

[Brett Ross]

Gunseller, I had the discussion with them last season. This was after I was talked by my son to get bsck out in the field. I was trying to chose between one of my old mil- surps or the pistol, I'm glad I used my Styer as its no longer a choice. I tried to explain a soft lead boolit would expand better than the leverlution bullets that were avalible at the time, like talking math to a pig. My plan now is, no shot over 50yds and only then if my shooting improves, if not 30yds. Time to practice.

[Brett Ross]

I'm working with Tim on a drill jig. My plan is to drill a shallow cup as the state is extreamly vauge in their rules. This should cover my backside while mataining max boolit weight. I will document progress here, hopefuly ending in deer steak.
Tony

[Geezer in NH]

Forester jig trims cases, cuts neck thickness and has a hollow point attachment, drill it .030 deep. law says expanding that fits the definition or arrest me!!!!!!!!!! See you in court and wait for the counter suit my lawyer loves to win on no money up front just his share od settlement.

Note ,gov has to also go by the law they write with no their interpretation.

[rexherring]

I agree with the above post on the "know nothings" working for the government. My BH with RCBS 255 cast of WW will drop a mule deer as quick if not quicker than a jacketed HP. Never had to use a second shot on any of them out to 75 yds. But, to your situation, just drill small shallow HP and keep the paper pushers happy.

[GooseGestapo]

I think you need to actually talk to a field enforcement officer, not the office personnel. Administrative assistants and such often just quote the law and don't really know what the official policy is, which due to court decisions can be a bit different from actual wording of statue/regulation.

I'm retired from the Ga. DNR and we used to have a similar statute. We had a requirement of "expanding" type ammunition and a minimum of 500ft/lbs muzzle energy. The original regulation was written by well meaning individual (Commissioner who had PhD in wildlife mgt. who was also a hobby gunsmith). He "invented" the Captur-Gun using the hypodermic dart. However, I, to my knowledge was the only officer to ever actually own and know how to use a chronograph... I also know that most of the .357mag ammo wouldn't make 1,200fps and it acutally required ~1,300fps to meet the minimum (158gr bullet).

My advice to hunters was to use anything but FMJ and a "full power load" as regarded the .357magnum "handgun". Ironically, the .357mag in a rifle was not permitted (go figure?!).

Time came that I sat on the committee that met annually to address up-dates and changes to regulations. First thing I did was suggest changing to any centerfire .22cal or larger be permitted. 6" bbl on handguns with adjustable sights deleted; and "Any" expanding type ammunition added to wording. I had data to show that my 4" issued .357mag chrono'd faster than a Dept owned 6" gun of same caliber issued to pistol team (me). No sense in barrel length restriction.. Ditto adding .17rf to list of allowable "small game" calibers in 2002...

I used to shoot at the NRA National Police Shooting championships with some officers from Iowa. They were "different" for sure! But several of them were very knowledgeable shooters who would know the difference between a lead slug and an FMJ and know that the cast lead slug will expand nicely!
I suggest you find someone else to talk to in Iowa DNR..... I think that you'll find that the FN and RFN bullets will likely be allowed. Then have that individual talk to the field officer in your area to get everyone on the "same page"...
Just be personable and reasonable and it'll surprise you what you can accomplish with a few phone calls and a cup of coffee or two...Face to face and a few photo's from castboolits.com and you'll likely be met with satisfactory outcome.

Personally, I use the .45colt with 255gr Lee RN with complete satisfaction. I can't tell you it expands to any extent as I've never recovered one! But a 3' long wound cavity 1/2" in diameter will kill most anything. From "test" media, it does "rivet" a bit, even at ~900fps I push it from handgun. From rifle ~1,200fps.

Good luck !!!

[gtgeorge]

Thanks GooseGestapo for helping make our rules a little more sensible in GA.

[gwpercle]

Midway has the Forester Universal Hollow Pointing Tool. $18.49 and can be used on loaded ammo to boot. Comes in 1/16 inch and 1/8 inch sizes. That's a pretty neat tool and I don't have one....yet!
Gary

[MBTcustom]

Ok, I had way too much fun creating this "simple" HP jig for Bett Ross.
I made a collet tool that will hold the boolit in perfect alignment with the drill bit, I made it use a 1/8" drill, and then I made a triangle swaging spear to open the HP to an absolutely wicked looking HP, guaranteed to extract a gasp from even the most uninformed tacticool game officer.
I'll post pictures soon. You guys are going to love this.
Forster can kiss my grits!
Looking at these boolits, all I can say is: "Poor deer."
LOL!

[Brett Ross]

Cant wait to see the pics

[MBTcustom]

OK, so what you do is take this innocent, unassuming tool here:
112739
Stick the boolit in the precision collet bore:
112740
Make sure it's flush so that the nose pilots on the taper on the inside, (which centers the nose up) and tighten the collet by unscrewing the bottom knob:
112741
Then you run a 1/8" drill bit in there to a mark that you have made on it to determine depth:
112742
And voila! a 1/8" HP in an unloaded boolit! (you need to loosten the collet closing knob then give it a gentle whack with a plastic hammer to make the boolit jump out).
There, the game wardens are foiled again!

[MBTcustom]

But wait! There's more!

Use your knife to knock a chamfer on the edge of the HP (it's much easier to do this with a 60 degree chamfer bit in the drill motor).
and no, I didn't slice my darn finger with my knife. That was due to the blood sweat and tears that happened earlier in the project. LOL!
112743
Then take this nifty little pointed tool I made and stick it in your drill press, and press it into the HP to create a flying ashtray, gauranteed to leave nothing but four smoldering hooves where your deer used to be standing.
112744
112745
112746
Make them as deep and gnarly as you want!
112747
112748
112749
Bwahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!
Think the darn game wardens will have any trouble seeing that?!?!?
That's going to open like an umbrella when it hits, so be sure to add tin to your mix, and don't feel obligated to make them quite as "effective" as I did here. I was just having fun. LOL!

[Geezer in NH]

[QUOTE=goodsteel;2881571]QUOTE]
Sweet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sawzall]

Awesome little jig there! Is it designed specifically for that boolit or will it work on other profiles and diameters? I want one!

[Brett Ross]

Too cool for words. I see I have a PM, I will get with you there about settling up ang getting it shipped. I can't wait to work up somthing other than my plinking load and send a few down range.

[MBTcustom]

I just designed it for the Lee TL-452-230-2R boolit since that's what the OP has, and what he needs a solution for. Also, I happened to have a bunch left over from when I traded that mold away. However, I think the OP could use this for any 45 caliber pistol boolit as the collet will hold anything .440-.455 in diameter.
I was just having some fun with the lathe fellers. I'm not trying to go into production with this or anything.
However, feel free to copy the design!

Glad you like it Ross. I wish all problems were as easy to solve as this one. Enjoy!

[gtgeorge]

Wow very nice to see the effort you put out Tim. And the fun along the way playing was a great share as well/ It was however a shame if his DNR folks don't get it that it's the lead in a lead/jacket bullet that causes the expansion. I know I wouldn't want to deal with the ticket but if the field agents would think lead doesn't qualify as expanding then a cjudge hearing with good proof would be in order to fix it for everyone.

[Brett Ross]

GTGeorge. I'm not as worried about a ticket (I think I can beat it) as I am about the DNRs nature to confiscate guns and equipment. I would just a well avoid the hassle and play their game. Tim, I sent a PM, let me know if you don't get it, my PCs been a bit hinkey lately . All I will use this thread to document load development and hunting success or lack of, here. Now need to get the parts ordered to repair my chrony , after some moron shot it. I would not let that guy shoot over it again but as I was the moron, it would hinder load development.
Tony

[gtgeorge]

Hey Tony, I know the felling. Usually it is best to not rock the boat and I likely would avoid the conflict myself. It isn't worth the hassle of loosing the days hunt and even less to have to fight for equipment back or getting out of jail.

[Brett Ross]

Ok I was finally able to work with Tim’s hollow pointing tool this weekend
119069
Starting boolit weight
119070
Setting depth .125
119071
.125
119072
Weight after drilling
119073
Finished product, loaded with 8gr Unique.
I went to the range and results were not encouraging, group size , barn door. I have loaded up a few more and going to group my loads with and without out, the HP. I have not grouped any of these boolits loaded this hot before; Also I think I my not have gotten the Jig tight enough and spun the bollots in the jig, thus sizing them down. I also need to have the cylinder throats reamed, as they are tight but this will have to wait. I will update results of testing with and with out HP, with the 8gr load.
Tony