Which rifle caliber to trim for Indiana deer hunting?

[indianadeerhunter2018]

Indianas regulations are maximum case length of 1.8" and minimum bullet diameter of .357" I already own a 44 mag rifle I am just looking for a rifle that has better accuracy and farther range. I am looking at either a cva 35 remington or a handi rifle in either 444 or 45-70. I will trim cases to 1.75" just incase the brass stretches. I understand 35 rem dies won't need modified but I will need to cut the dies for the 444 & 45-70. My question is which one will have the best ballistics and accuracy? Also, I've never shot any of these calibers and don't know if I can handle the recoil. I'm 14 but I'm fairly big and I am 6'1 190 pounds and I'm pretty strong(I bench 165) and I'm sure I can handle the 35 but don't know about the 444 and 45-70. Anyone who has tried this please let me know how it works for you.

[Artful]

I'd buy a Handi Rifle in 357 Magnum and then rechamber to 357 Herrett - made from the common 30-30 brass
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd357herrett.jpg

The 357 Mag with a 158, (In a 20"tube) is right at 2000fps (Better with judicious loading)

The 357 MAX with a 180, (In a 20" tube) is right at 2300fps

The 357 Herrett in a 10 " T/C Contender barrel with 158 gr JHP bullet, 26 gr of 2400 for 2190 fps.
But here's some of the data for a 14" barrel.
26.0grs 296 powder, 158grs Sierra JSP, Fed 215= 2274'ps
26.0grs 2400 powder, 158grs Sierra JSP, Fed 215=2340'ps
27.5grs IMR4227 powder, 170gr Sierra FMJ, CCI250,= 2247'ps
25.5grs 296 powder, 170gr Sierra FMJ, CCI250= 2178'ps
and out of a 12 inch barrel - reloader's nest data
200 Hornady SP or RN Accurate AAC-1680 29.0 1,800
Remarks: maximum load

The 35 Rem with a 200, (STD pressure in a 20" tube) Is right at 2100fps. (MUCH better with +P loadings)


Some links here about 357 herrett
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?170091-357-Herrett-Help
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?161401-Cast-and-the-357-Herrett
other links
http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12956
http://www.handgunhunt.com/tech/t11/
http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=1861

Now say you use a Hornady 35 Cal .358 200 gr InterLock® SP-RP
http://www.hornady.com/store/images/T/3510%2035%20Cal%20.358%20200gr%20SP.jpg
Item Number 3510
Ballistic Coefficient (G1) 0.282
Sectional Density 0.223
and say we get it going 2000 fps
Ballistic Calculator says
Ballistic Coefficient 0.282 Velocity (ft/s) 2000 Weight (grains) 200
Maximum Range (yds) 200 Interval (yds) 50 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 150
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results - 357 Herrett carbine
Range (yards) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.-lb.) Trajectory (in) Come UP in MOA Come UP in Mils Wind Drift (in) Wind Drift in MOA Wind Drift in Mils
Muzzle 2000 1776 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
50 1867 1548 1.6 -3.1 -0.9 0 0 0 1.6 inches high at 50
100 1740 1345 2.3 -2.2 -0.6 0 0 0 2.3 inches high at 100
150 1621 1166 0 0 0 0 0 0 zero at 150
200 1508 1010 -5.5 2.6 0.8 0 0 0 so that's over 1000 ft-lb at 200
you can aim center of chest and from zero to 150 will not rise more than 2.5 inches and at 200 won't sink more than 5.5

[dragonrider]

I agree with Art, 357 Herrett should be just what you need.

[Don McDowell]

Why not just get down to serious business and find an accurate load for your 44? That cartridge is capable of minute of deer out to 200 yds with just a little load development.

[Artful]

Why not just get down to serious business and find an accurate load for your 44? That cartridge is capable of minute of deer out to 200 yds with just a little load development.
it will but will not be as forgiving as a flatter shooting round.
http://randywakeman.com/44RemMagHandgun.jpg

Also look at the Energy figures - I'd like 1000 ft/lb of energy at farthest distance I expect to connect at.
That said the deer I hit with a 44 seem to think it packs more energy than the book says.

[dragon813gt]

Do you currently have 35 Remington brass or ammo? If not then I would look at another round. Both are seasonal runs and aren't available currently. Well at least they aren't available at what I would consider a reasonable price.

[Don McDowell]

If you read the Indiana regs, they're really not wanting anything that will reach out and shoot flatter, that's the reason for the 1.8 inch and straightwall case restriction.

[DougGuy]

As I read it, he cannot use the .357 Herrett b/c it is a bottleneck case. We had this same discussion a while back with another member wanting to hunt out to 200yds and I think we all (mostly) agreed on the .375 Winchester after MUCH discussion.

This one will be a little more difficult with the 1.8" case restriction.

[Pinsnscrews]

Taken from http://www.in.gov/dnr/files/fw-Deer_Hunting_Equipment.pdf


Rifles with pistol cartridges
Rifles must fire a cartridge with a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length
of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches.
¾ These rifle cartridges can be used only during the deer firearms season.
Some cartridges that are legal include the following:
.357 Magnum
.38-40 Winchester
.41 Magnum
.41 Special
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.44-40 Winchester
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.458 SOCOM
.480 Ruger
.475 Linebaugh
.50 Action Express
.500 S&W
Some illegal rifle cartridges for deer hunting are the .30-30 Winchester, .444 Marlin and .45-70
Govt.


Does not say anything about "Straightwall" cartridges only.

[grampa243]

how about a 357mag re-chambered to 357max? then you can still shoot 38spl.. for targets or small game.

[Artful]

Taken from http://www.in.gov/dnr/files/fw-Deer_Hunting_Equipment.pdf


Does not say anything about "Straightwall" cartridges only.

Illinois is a state with straight wall requirement and in that case I'd agree 375 big bore is an excellent choice.

[bruce drake]

My Indiana Deer Rifle is a 358 Winchester with the neck trimmed back to 1.8" Its DNR legal and can be made from 308Win cases necked up.

Bruce

[M-Tecs]

http://naturalgeographic.net/wp/newly-legal-indiana-deer-hunting-cartridges/

For the 2012 deer season the maximum cartridge case length has been expanded to 1.8 inches, an increase from 1.625 inches. None of the other requirements, such as minimum bullet diameter of .357 inches, have changed.

[Goatwhiskers]

How about the .445SM? Rechamber the Magnum, brass is available AFIK, or you can make it easily from 30/40Krag. GW

[M-Tecs]

My Indiana Deer Rifle is a 358 Winchester with the neck trimmed back to 1.8" Its DNR legal and can be made from 308Win cases necked up.

Bruce

Short neck must look funny but a great option.

[Artful]

I don't know...


358 Winchester
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/mmmwilson/1215112006a.jpg
and another way to do that
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/HoosierDies011.jpg


35 Remington
http://www.loaddata.com/images/database/.35%20Remington12.gif
Trimmed to 1.79"
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/duckwhackercmon/95C41E64-1E3F-4963-9C0F-A0850EFC176E-3055-00000053AF25C449.jpg

a plain 35 Remington case shortened may be a good legal alternative to 357 Herrett as no modification to dies or rifle would be required. - Shoot regular to fireform then trim for hunting to be legal in Indiana. I think Bruce has the best answer.

[Don McDowell]

it will but will not be as forgiving as a flatter shooting round.
http://randywakeman.com/44RemMagHandgun.jpg

Also look at the Energy figures - I'd like 1000 ft/lb of energy at farthest distance I expect to connect at.
That said the deer I hit with a 44 seem to think it packs more energy than the book says.

Keep in mind that when that same round is fired out of a rifle barrel it's going to pickup about 300 fps over the revolver. And as most full house 44 rounds trot out at 1240 or so from a handgun we're now looking at nearly 1600 fps out of a rifle, that changes the down range numbers drastically.

[Tackleberry41]

What exactly was the point of creating such restrictive chambering regs in the first place? No 30/30, as in one of the most popular deer rifles ever made?

I have family in Indiana, and I thought at one point it was pretty much shotgun only. But nobody has ever told me we have these regs because...? So you dont get a ton of range and hit somebody in their garden 1/2 a mile away?

And yea pistol and rifle loads for 44mag are very different. I can get 400FPS out of a 16" Rossi barrel over specs in a loading manual for pistols. Go with something light like the rubber tipped spitzers and you can probably get a bit of range out of one.

[Yodiebuzz]

1000 ft lbs at 100+ yards seems pretty excessive to me....

Kentucky regulations on ELK with a Handgun only requires 550 ft. Lbs at 100 yards.

I grew up in Indiana, didn't remember the deer being that tough.

[DeanWinchester]

I wanna know how some bureaucrat got his head so far up his rectum, he thought this was a sensible regulation????


BTW I would second Artful for the .357 Herret. Dead right there cartridge if you put it in the engine room. Very cast friendly with LOTS of molds to choose from and easy to make brass.

[Double B]

I really like my 357 max with 180 grainers for deer in Indiana. Mostly 125 yard and usually less for shots. It's 2 for 2. Reaming was cheap and easy. I do like the 445 SM idea if you wanted to try to work with your 44? I've actually seen the 445 SM brass available over the past week. And to all the folks scratching their heads.......yes you can also use shotguns w slugs or muzzle loaders. Or rifles in pistol cartridges........Or, are you ready for this.......pistols in RIFLE cartridges, like contenders, savages, lone eagles, etc, loaded w .243 or larger projectiles. Confused? We are too!

[DougGuy]

.375 Winchester case is 2.020" according to SAAMI, could you not shorten the case by .040" and have a workable cartridge?

[M-Tecs]

.375 Winchester case is 2.020" according to SAAMI, could you not shorten the case by .040" and have a workable cartridge?

2.020" - 1.800" = .220"

For the lightest recoil (compared to the 444 and 45/70) and flattest trajectory I would look towards the .357 Herett, 35 Rem short, 356 Winchester short, 358 Hoosier, 358 Win. short or the 358 WSSM with the 358 Winchester shortened being the best brass availability, lowest cost and easiest for case prep.

Lowest cost rifles

http://www.cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=742

http://www.cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=746

http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product.asp?productid=1036386

kind of a rat but it is in stock
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=428181759

[DougGuy]

Oops... LOL

[rollmyown]

Have I missed something? What is the reason for this law or restriction? It makes no sense to me.

[dragon813gt]

Have I missed something? What is the reason for this law or restriction? It makes no sense to me.

In their infinite wisdom they thought it would limit the effective range. It's completely stupid IMO. Same w/ shotgun only. The modern sabots can reach out pretty far and pack a lot of energy.

[DeanWinchester]

In their infinite wisdom they thought it would limit the effective range. It's completely stupid IMO. Same w/ shotgun only. The modern sabots can reach out pretty far and pack a lot of energy.


Well that's stupid. The .243 WSSM would technically be legal. What's the effective range of that thing? A long dang way that's for sure.

[petroid]

Well that's stupid. The .243 WSSM would technically be legal. What's the effective range of that thing? A long dang way that's for sure.

The .243 WSSM IS technically legal in a HANDGUN but not a rifle. The rules for rifles give a minimum caliber of .357 and min and max case length of 1.16"-1.8". This allows the shortened 35 Rem and 358 Win in addition to the wildcat 358 WSSM which is a 25 WSSM necked up. In a handgun the case length restrictions is only a minimum of 1.16" and the minimum caliber is .243 and 4" barrel which allows basically any contender chambered in a rifle cartridge of .243 caliber or larger, including .243 Win, .308, 30-30, 35 Rem, the list goes on. You could technically build an AR-10 pistol in .308 if you wanted. I actually built a 300 AAC Blackout AR15 Pistol for this reason, along with the fact that I can put a <16" barrel on it without an SBR tax stamp.

Unfortunately, the OP is too young to carry a handgun by himself. However, if he was hunting with an adult, he could use one.

[13Echo]

Well heck. How about the good ole .50-70 Govt? If you gotta follow those rules might as well make a statement.

Jerry Liles

[petroid]

No one would miss that statement

[indianadeerhunter2018]

The .243 WSSM IS technically legal in a HANDGUN but not a rifle. The rules for rifles give a minimum caliber of .357 and min and max case length of 1.16"-1.8". This allows the shortened 35 Rem and 358 Win in addition to the wildcat 358 WSSM which is a 25 WSSM necked up. In a handgun the case length restrictions is only a minimum of 1.16" and the minimum caliber is .243 and 4" barrel which allows basically any contender chambered in a rifle cartridge of .243 caliber or larger, including .243 Win, .308, 30-30, 35 Rem, the list goes on. You could technically build an AR-10 pistol in .308 if you wanted. I actually built a 300 AAC Blackout AR15 Pistol for this reason, along with the fact that I can put a <16" barrel on it without an SBR tax stamp.

Unfortunately, the OP is too young to carry a handgun by himself. However, if he was hunting with an adult, he could use one.

Technically as long as I had written permission from the landowner(I hunt private property only) I can carry a handgun, however my parents don't want me to have a handgun until I am legally old enough to get my carry permit, so I am limited to a long gun.

[wgr]

i shoot a shorten 45-70 round. with a 300 grain hollow point you have a solid 150 yard gun. if you really know your rifle it will go to 200yards.i also shoot a 400grain cast boolit cast from 20.1 eather will flat put meat on the table.ill give you the load if you like.and as far as the dumb laws you can use a .410 shotgun with slugs. i did,nt make the law just saying.then on the other hand i have a 357max. loaded with a 180grain ssp its a solid 200 yard rifle.good luck

[dave roelle]

Hornady cases in 45/70 get pretty close to 1.8

Dave

[rush1886]

I'll throw my hat into the ring for the 357 Max. Between Contender and Encore, one could be legal in several scenarios between rifle and pistol length barrels.

Let us not understate the significance of the original post, and poster, though. Mr. indianadeerhunter2018 stated he is 14 years of age. I do not recall, but I don't believe that I was capable of the depth of his thought train, at age 14. Folks like him are our future!

Hats off to you, Mr. indianadeerhunter2018!!!!!

[Jeff H]

........., at age 14. Folks like him are our future!

Hats off to you, Mr. indianadeerhunter2018!!!!!


I have to second that.

He sets a good example for us all in many ways. I am glad the forum attracts such young people and I wish it attracted more.

[warboar_21]

458 socom for the win.

[indianadeerhunter2018]

458 socom for the win.

They don't make a single shot in 458 socom and my budget is 300 bucks so I can't get an ar

[Don McDowell]

Put your 300 into reloading components and good sights. That 44 will take out any deer Indiana has that needs shooting, just as far as any other cartridge that fits the length limit in a rifle will.

[wgr]

Put your 300 into reloading components and good sights. That 44 will take out any deer Indiana has that needs shooting, just as far as any other cartridge that fits the length limit in a rifle will.
now that is true. use what you have now save your bucks and get what you want/like when you find it

[rbuck351]

350 Rem Mag shortened will get you the 200 yds you want with plenty of punch left.

[Boyscout]

I am going with the 35 Remington short. My grandfather gave my father a Remington 740 pump over 40 years ago and I now have it. It has never taken a deer as far as I know. It is a a pre-1964 as the butt plate is aluminum. It has a Lyman Aperature sight and I just replaced the front sight post with a fiber optic post. I am still working on an accurate load for the RCBS 358-200 FN.

[Artful]

Well indianadeerhunter2018 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?37121-indianadeerhunter2018) have we confused you enough yet? Can you tell us where your at in your thinking :-P

[DougGuy]

Put your 300 into reloading components and good sights. That 44 will take out any deer Indiana has that needs shooting, just as far as any other cartridge that fits the length limit in a rifle will.

Won't be long some affluent senator's errant son in law will blow himself up trying to cobble a perfectly safe cartridge into a homemade bomb just to satisfy the idiotic laws, and they will realize how stupid it really is and change it. This tying one's legs together at the knees to limit the effective distance one may jump has bound to be only a short lived thing.

[1Shirt]

Sort of strikes me as politician logic based upon lack of common sense!
1Shirt!

[Got-R-Did]

Rush and Jeff are spot on, our Future indeed!
IndianaDeerHunter2018, please let me know which caliber you ultimately decide on and I will do my best to donate a box of bullets for you to work with.
Got-R-Did.

[Good Cheer]

My first thought was to check around for spire point single shot pistol bullets such as Hornady once made. The spire point let you put more of the bullet mass up the pipe and not take up so much powder space, hence higher available velocity and better ballistic coefficient.
But hey, you might be able to really improve the performance of your .44 depending upon the type of rifle and how far you can seat out the bullets. If it's a single shot there's some really great possibilities to look into.

[Nicholas]

I agree with those posts advising go with the 44 that you have. Put your time and treasure improving what you can do with it. You will be certain that you are in compliance with the regs, too. Embrace the challenge of getting your deer within the range and accuracy capabilities of YOUR rifle.

Above all enjoy the hunt, and good luck!

[357Mag]

113581Indy -

Single load/shot only......

Another version of .35 Rem short = " .35 Rem Neckless " .

Utilizes " Dead Center's " .35 cal swaged lead 195 SPBT, " patched " ( here ) w/ DYMO label maker tape.

Rebated boat tail's body overhang seals onto case' mouth.
Closing the bolt ( M-336 ) puts rearward pressure on the boolit, via boolit's contact w/ the rifling; assuring proper orientation of cartridge components.

Test loads have exceeded .357Mag power levels.

Boolits can be breech-seated using a simple tool, and charged case ( w/ an overpowder " wad " ) added second.
Boolit's rebated bot tail serves as a ready-made guide towards correct mating of the boolit into the case.

Exotic, but legal; and... do-able.


With regards,
357Mag

[Tackleberry41]

I guess that was the whole point of the law was to limit the distance a bullet would go when hunting in Indiana. There was a time when it was shotgun only, my uncles used to complain. A 44mag even used like a mortar really wont go very far, like a 30-06 can. Funny just driving over the bridge into Ky and you can use whatever you want, havent seen in the news where dozens of people have been killed in their gardens by errant bullets there. I lived in S central KY for a time, and opening day of gun season sounded like Beirut.

The 44 mag with some spire pointed bullets might give some pretty good results without resorting to weird 'hoosier' chamberings to deal with. Hornady has the 265gr made for the 444 marlin, and the lighter one made for the 44mag. You can get a considerable velocity boost out of a rifle over a pistol. And a single shot will use them without issue.

[nekshot]

Has no one in your capital done some research on how far punkin ball can bounce? Some of those shot gun projectiles go aloooong way on their bounce. I know of one situation that a shot was made at deer around 120 yards and projectile hit barn over 600 yards away. Guy shooting was totally convinced he could shoot at deer with farmstead in background because ths slug doesn't have enough oomph to get that far. And then there is one I was standing at our cabin and some dufus NJ state police were shooting towards our cabin down the road and were convinced their 9mm would never make it to our cabin but 3 of them hit the gable end! And I heard them hit What do you do when you kick a law man in his -ss?

[Weaponologist]

I recently bought the Ruger MKIII 38/357 Carbine. The price may be out of his range if not getting help to buy a new rifle..I really like this rifle and it is very accurate and I like the idea of the 357 max and this would be the Rifle to spend that money on. If. You were going to rechamber it later. if not, the H&R or other single shots would serve you well enough for now. Any of the lever action like Marlin or Henry would put you right back up to the Ruger price again.. either way but the 357 with the Hornady 357 rifle bullet in it will or should Rock any deer with in 80 or so Yards...
http://i59.tinypic.com/1z65sfn.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/j8dvd5.jpg

[bob208]

.50-70 and .45-60 should fit there rules.

[indianadeerhunter2018]

I recently bought the Ruger MKIII 38/357 Carbine. The price may be out of his range if not getting help to buy a new rifle..I really like this rifle and it is very accurate and I like the idea of the 357 max and this would be the Rifle to spend that money on. If. You were going to rechamber it later. if not, the H&R or other single shots would serve you well enough for now. Any of the lever action like Marlin or Henry would put you right back up to the Ruger price again.. either way but the 357 with the Hornady 357 rifle bullet in it will or should Rock any deer with in 80 or so Yards...
http://i59.tinypic.com/1z65sfn.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/j8dvd5.jpg

I have actually thought about the ruger 77-357 and 77-44. They have a 1 in 20 twist rate, the handi is only have a 1 in 38; so the ruger should be more accurate. I just don't think I can get the money for the ruger.

[06ackley]

Well im using a cut down 358 win but wouldn't feel undergunned with a 44mag either. Quite a few guys I know are using cut down 45-70 and 35 rem.

[dragon813gt]

So how long until your game commission catches on and changes the regs to prohibit modifying cartridges?

[06ackley]

Well the DNR officers know about all the modified cartridges.They are legal.I have talked to a few officers and they are ok with the new cartridges as long as they meet the legal criteria.Check out the 358 wssm.That is a very potent round and legal.Its what happens when a desk jockey makes the laws.

[dragon813gt]

Its what happens when a desk jockey makes the laws.
Oh I understand. I live on a county line. Depending on which side of the hill I'm on I might not be able to use a rifle due to a stupid shotgun only regulation.

[bruce drake]

I also made the call to my local game warden before I decided to build my 358 Win as well. He just said to let him know how it worked as he was thinking about the same cartridge.

Bruce

[indianadeerhunter2018]

I recently bought the Ruger MKIII 38/357 Carbine. The price may be out of his range if not getting help to buy a new rifle..I really like this rifle and it is very accurate and I like the idea of the 357 max and this would be the Rifle to spend that money on. If. You were going to rechamber it later. if not, the H&R or other single shots would serve you well enough for now. Any of the lever action like Marlin or Henry would put you right back up to the Ruger price again.. either way but the 357 with the Hornady 357 rifle bullet in it will or should Rock any deer with in 80 or so Yards...
http://i59.tinypic.com/1z65sfn.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/j8dvd5.jpg

What kinda accuracy do you get at 100 yards?

[indianadeerhunter2018]

Weaponoligist, are there any reasons to get the 77-357 over the 77-44?

[gandydancer]

at your size 6'1" 190 lbs you can handle a 45/70 round with no trouble. I'm 5'8" 170 lbs damaged spine & broken neck all wired together its what I use. although I do like the CVA scout rifle carbine in 35 Remington & 35 whelen with the Bergara barrels. 35 whelen is the ballistic twin to the 350 Remington magnum. PS cva scout rifles run about $250.00 out the door. and comes with mts & rings. I have four of them with two more on the way. I'm a big fan of the Bergara Barrels. gd

[rjathon]

A shortened 35 Rem case or a 357 bored out to 357 Maximum make the most sense to me. They are plenty powerful and fast to get the job done while having reasonable recoil. Any larger caliber that match their speeds kicks too much for me.