Ruger #1 in .405 Win with New Accurate Mold.

[Clay M]

My old mold was set up for Lyman 41 gas checks. Some of them would come off when I fired a round. I decided to retire that mold and buy a two cavity 41-325BG brass mold from Tom.
The mold drops bullets at .415 with a nose dia of about .406 I am sizing .414 and using the Hornady .416 gas checks.I am lubing with Carnauba Red lube.

Just got back from the range My test load was 43 grs of Rel7 with a Fed 210M primer.All charges weighed for accuracy.I found that using the Hornady .405 seating die would allow me to seat these .414 bullets without scraping lead off the side of the bullets.I am using a .411 RCBS expander plug and put a generous bell on the case mouth.The RCBS seater die would take the bell out too earily and cause lead scraping. The Hornady seater solved the problem.I seat with it and then use the RCBS seater to put a mild crimp on the case.Mainly so the rounds with seat in the chamber.The bore of my #1 slugs .412 an the .406 nose is a snug fit ,engraving the rifling's. The range test was 100 yds.I got five shots in 1.25" with a sixth shot opening the group to 1.50".Nice round group. I let the barrel cool for several minutes between shots.No leading at all with this load.I am pleased with the results since I am using a Leupold 1.5X5 VX-3 scope.

Just thought I would post this as a follow up and hope it will be a help to someone using a Ruger #1 in .405 win.

I did try a load of 50grs of IMR 3031 and the group was terrible. Rel 7 is the best powder I have tried so far.

Good job Tom for making a great mold that brought this rifle to life.

[longranger]

Maybe consider a custom expander that fits your dies from Buffalo Arms.The "generous bell" is detrimental to the longevity of the brass it will cause early neck splits.The provided expander is designed for jacketed bullets.The B/A expanders do just that,expand and not bell and will eliminate lead shearing.I automatically purchase a custom expander for any firearm I plan shooting lead.Very few die sets provide a proper expander for lead. Just a thought from experience.

[Clay M]

Maybe consider a custom expander that fits your dies from Buffalo Arms.The "generous bell" is detrimental to the longevity of the brass it will cause early neck splits.The provided expander is designed for jacketed bullets.The B/A expanders do just that,expand and not bell and will eliminate lead shearing.I automatically purchase a custom expander for any firearm I plan shooting lead.Very few die sets provide a proper expander for lead. Just a thought from experience.

Thanks for the suggestion. I called them and they can make up an expander that runs .414-.411.That would work best.

[35 shooter]

Congrats on a nice load. Feels good when it all comes together like that. I'd like to try some re- 7 in my whelen if i ever find it again around here.
I've always liked the idea of the 405 win. it's a grand old cartridge.

[Clay M]

I love the .405.I have shot the 95's for many years.When Ruger chambered the #1 in .405 I had to have one. I was in Cody ,Wy on vacation when I found this one is a shop there.
I am sure the rifle will shoot this load inside MOA. The group I shot is probably the best I can do with that rifle and particular scope.

[35 shooter]

I've been thinking of some kind of straight or tapered wall case for my encore. I've read some of your posts on the 405 in the past and of course this one. I'm thinking this may well be the one i go with.
What kind of velocity are you getting from that load?

[Clay M]

I've been thinking of some kind of straight or tapered wall case for my encore. I've read some of your posts on the 405 in the past and of course this one. I'm thinking this may well be the one i go with.
What kind of velocity are you getting from that load?


I chronograph this load with my old 310 gr cast bullet and was getting right at 2000fps.I can go a good deal higher with that powder, but of course the recoil goes up too. This load is comfortable to shoot, accurate, and will kill anything I have a chance to hunt.


Something else I failed to mention. I sized my old bullets .413 for this rifle and always had unburned Rel7 powder in the barrel. Sizing this new bullet .414 there is no more unburned power at all,and no traces of lead in the bore.

[35remington]

The barrel of my #1 slugs .412 and the .406 nose is a snug fit in the bore, engraving the rifling's.

Just being a terminology Nazi, sorry. Bore has a specific meaning and it is not groove diameter, but land to land diameter. Corrected to follow what you meant. "Bore" is way too often used when what is meant is barrel diameter. Yeah, I'm on a personal quest to fix this all by myself. Now back to the topic, sorry for the hghjack.

[Eutectic]

The barrel of my #1 slugs .412 and the .406 nose is a snug fit in the bore, engraving the rifling's.

Just being a terminology Nazi, sorry. Bore has a specific meaning and it is not groove diameter, but land to land diameter. Corrected to follow what you meant. "Bore" is way too often used when what is meant is barrel diameter. Yeah, I'm on a personal quest to fix this all by myself. Now back to the topic, sorry for the hghjack.

I also have a Ruger#1 in .405 WCF. It is 6 lands and grooves and measures .4125" GROOVE diameter and .405" BORE diameter.

'Bore' is many times used as a definition for a precision machined hole in something.

Hence a "perfect bore" for a description for the rifling in a used gun.

In making a barrel that was 'cut' rifled in the older days...... Bore took on another meaning as the process of final precision reaming of the 'bore' (the last circumferential machining step) before the rifling process took place. This 'bore' dimension became the tops of the lands in a finished rifled barrel.
The majority of barrels are either 4, 6, or 8 lands and grooves. The land to land comment in 'red' above is true in this case. HOWEVER say you have a 5 land and groove barrel, as some S&W, Enfields, or one of JES great cut rifled re-bores. Here land to land is incorrect! Here, either the bore dimension or the groove dimension is the actual circumference and the diameter formed by rifling the five grooves into a known bore dimension. Put more simply you can't just put a micrometer on a slug from a five groove barrel and get a correct measurement. Precision hole gauges, precision pin gauges, or a couple of other tool & die tricks are needed to get true measurement! Hence land to land is not correct in the 180° sense that it is for 4,6, or any even number of lands and grooves.
So correct terminology is very important. And 'bore' having several definitions even for a gun barrel that can apply make it even more confusing!
So in our rifled bore......The diameter of the bigger circumferential dimension is the 'groove' diameter and the diameter of the smaller circumferential dimension is the 'bore' diameter.

Eutectic

[35remington]

As I said.......it's land to land diameter. Nothing changes or needs to be corrected from what I wrote nor does the statement need to be modified to account for an odd number of lands. Diameter is still diameter, the inside to inside dimension of a circle. I said diameter......not distance. I also said nothing about 180 degree dimensions or distance. You inferred that from something that was not stated. Not my problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diameter

Since we're trying, without success, to split hairs that do not need splitting.......

"...either the bore dimension or the groove dimension is the actual circumference....."

Groove dimension cannot be the "actual circumference" as that is impossible, this being 2Piradius. Diameter is 2radius. Read the attached link. Groove dimension is the diameter of the larger circle that reaches the bottom of the grooves, not the circumference. Both bore and groove dimensions are diameter, not circumferential, measurements. If my statement needed "clearing up" by reading into something that was not stated.........so did yours. Are we even now?

Land to land diameter applies regardless of how many lands there are, so restating what I said is needless. It is correct as written.

[Eutectic]

35...

I've added my comments in 'blue' in response to yours


As I said.......it's land to land diameter. Nothing changes or needs to be corrected from what I wrote nor does the statement need to be modified to account for an odd number of lands. Diameter is still diameter, the inside to inside dimension of a circle. I said diameter......not distance. I also said nothing about 180 degree dimensions or distance. You inferred that from something that was not stated. Not my problem.

OK 35.... we slug our 5 land and groove barrel that Jess has just re-bored into a great .405 Winchester. We slug it to check the groove diameter as the original poster did his barrel. The soft lead slug is in your hand 35..... HOW DO YOU MEASURE IT TO DETERMINE GROOVE DIAMETER? BETTER YET, HOW DO YOU MEASURE IT LAND TO LAND????? A hint is the lands are 72° apart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diameter

Since we're trying, without success, to split hairs that do not need splitting.......

"...either the bore dimension or the groove dimension is the actual circumference....."

Groove dimension cannot be the "actual circumference" as that is impossible,

What I said 35 was:
So in our rifled bore......The diameter of the bigger circumferential dimension is the 'groove' diameter and the diameter of the smaller circumferential dimension is the 'bore' diameter.

It's not totally clear so I'll give you a 'point' 35.
What you have with the 5 groove barrel is the circumference and THAT CIRCUMFERENCE DIVIDED BY Pi (3.1416) is our diameter.
As I would want to know the groove diameter to 4 places like say .4123" for example, I would make a precision hole gauge to check groove diameter in our example if I wanted four places in accuracy (tenths) or ten thousandths. You need experience to 'feel' the contact; I can't tell you what the feel is..... Yes you have measured the hole gauge with precision. A series of whole gauges very closely incremental is best. (.0002" difference)
The hole gauge actually measures the circumference around ALL the lands as a gauge and as you have it's diameter the conversion has been done for you so to speak.... Tell me again how you measure a 5 groove barrel land to land 35! It has to be land to land to land to land to land divided by 3.1416..... Circumference determines it and the hole gauge makes it easy for you!

this being 2Piradius. Diameter is 2radius. Read the attached link. Groove dimension is the diameter of the larger circle that reaches the bottom of the grooves, not the circumference. Both bore and groove dimensions are diameter, not circumferential, measurements. If my statement needed "clearing up" by reading into something that was not stated.........so did yours. Are we even now?

Land to land diameter applies regardless of how many lands there are, so restating what I said is needless.

Land to land on our lead slug is actually groove to groove in the barrel. So land to land refers to a micrometer measurement as the lands are 180° apart in most barrels which will give you a groove diameter dimension of the bore. Can you measure that 5 land and groove slug with a micrometer to four places 'land to land'?
(I've seen a micrometer 'trick' used on 5 grooves... Not sure I'd trust it to 4 places though!)

It is correct as written.
I don't think so.

[451whitworth]

interesting that IMR 3031 didn't shoot well. My 1895 .405 is not picky about powder at all. IMR 3031 or 4895, RL-7, 12, 15, all shoot well. RL-7 & the discontinued RL-12 are a smidge better than the others but all are capable in my rifle. I too size .414" for my LBT 350gr. LFN

[Eutectic]

RL-7 & the discontinued RL-12 are a smidge better than the others but all are capable in my rifle. I too size .414" for my LBT 350gr. LFN

451whitworth,

If you like those two you might try Reloder 10X (if you can find it). My Ruger likes it a lot! Too bad I'm almost out...

Eutectic

[Clay M]

I have some RL 10 but I don't think I have any data for that powder in the .405 win. Any suggestions for a load with the 325 gr bullet?

[451whitworth]

ClayM,
Lyman 49th lists a starting load of 43.0gr RL-10x with the Hornady 300gr. FN @ 29,600PSI (2004 fps) and a max of 48.0gr. (2203 fps) @43,300 PSI.

[Clay M]

ClayM,
Lyman 49th lists a starting load of 43.0gr RL-10x with the Hornady 300gr. FN @ 29,600PSI (2004 fps) and a max of 48.0gr. (2203 fps) @43,300 PSI.

OK thanks I didn't remember that data was in there.My 95's will shoot the 3031 and H4895 ,but my Ruger seems to be a bit more picky.

[Gemsbok405]

It's interesting that the 1895's don't have issues with the IMR-3031 and similar powders. Could it be that the loading sequence with rim downwards into magazine and then loading action cycle keeps powder levelled and close to primer...

With a single shot, and with cartridge removed from storage box (bullet down) the powder with IMR-3031 (at say 80% fill) is well away from primer. Then loading into rifle (muzzle down) keeps the powder bias towards bullet end of case. The combination would most likely result in huge variances of exposed powder area to the primers flame kernel.

The better burn, with reduction of unburnt powder, would most likely be due to the higher pressure from 325gr bullet...compared to 300gr bullet at same charge

[Eutectic]

ClayM,
Lyman 49th lists a starting load of 43.0gr RL-10x with the Hornady 300gr. FN @ 29,600PSI (2004 fps) and a max of 48.0gr. (2203 fps) @43,300 PSI.

I looked at H-322 data as well. The RCBS boolit is heavier than 325gr and my Ruger #1 is throated out with about .280" freebore so my loads would be warmer in the standard throat.... So I'll not list them.. But you can count on RL 10x being accurate..... I'd bet on it!

[Clay M]

I look forward to trying the RL 10.That will be my next loads. I also have some Rel 12 but no data for it with the .405win The burn rate is close to 4895.

[35remington]

Eutectic, talk about self steering tangents. You're driving this bus, not me. Perhaps you need to acknowledge it's land to land diameter and focus on that as that is the ONLY point that was made. Okay? Here's where you're going wrong.

Witness:

"OK 35.... we slug our 5 land and groove barrel that Jess has just re-bored into a great .405 Winchester. We slug it to check the groove diameter as the original poster did his barrel. The soft lead slug is in your hand 35..... HOW DO YOU MEASURE IT TO DETERMINE GROOVE DIAMETER? BETTER YET, HOW DO YOU MEASURE IT LAND TO LAND????? A hint is the lands are 72° apart."

Gee....this seems a tacit admission that bore is, in fact, a land to land dimension. Question: What does measurement method have to do with the essential correctness of that point? What does the foregoing have to do with anything I actually wrote? You brought up the problem in measuring it in odd groove barrels, not me.


"So land to land refers to a micrometer measurement (my comment: No it doesn't! You said how to measure this yourself.....and then you contradict yourself in saying a micrometer must be used! Or you're inferring that I suggested that, which I did not. Hmm....Plug gauge anyone?) as the lands are 180° apart in most barrels which will give you a groove diameter dimension of the bore. Can you measure that 5 land and groove slug with a micrometer to four places 'land to land'?
(I've seen a micrometer 'trick' used on 5 grooves... Not sure I'd trust it to 4 places though!)"

My comment: Who cares how I measure a land to land dimension? Did I ever state how to measure it or bring up rifling land number? Perhaps you need to focus your argument on my point, which I've already abundantly made clear. Bore is land to land diameter. Repeat that a few times. That's my point. That's all I said. Now you're making it into something it is not, about a type of measurement.

Where you err is thinking that I mandated some specific way to measure land to land distance that involved 180 degree measurement that you needed to "correct." I did not. You brought up micrometers and whatnot. It's measurable no matter how many lands are present. You admit that yourself. I did not address anything of the sort. I simply defined it.

The statement was correct as written and your mistaken opinion in blue won't change that fact. It's land to land diameter. Why you "don't think so" has to do with something entirely irrelevant to my actual point and was in opposition to a point I didn't even mention that you came up with yourself! In any rebuttal.....address this point or you're wasting my time. Since you already figured a way to measure that in odd groove barrels, and I already know how to measure it in odd groove barrels, perhaps you ought to let this one go. Your point about how to measure it is irrelevant to the correctness of the statement.

Bore is a land to land dimension. Whether there are three, four, five or nine lands in the barrel has no bearing on that fact. It also has nothing to do with whether the lands are 180 degrees apart or not. A .300" bore diameter is .300" bore diameter whether the barrel has three, four, five, six or nine lands. A plug gauge will measure all successfully no matter the land number. The lands don't have to be 180 degrees apart for land diameter to be measured accurately.

Remind yourself I simply defined the term and said nothing about how to measure it.

"Correcting" my statement because you somehow think I printed something that most obviously isn't there and "reading into" what isn't there leaves me shaking my head. This isn't conversation.....it's printed for you to reread. Doing so might help.

[Clay M]

See all this Bull$hit is why I don't post on here much. Who cares??? All that matters to me is can you make the guns shoot? Yes,or No.Calling me out over trivial stuff is ridiculous.I shoot, I don't have time for foolishness.
By the way, thanks for hijacking my thread.

[35remington]

I apologized for doing so already but you might want to thank Eutectic as well as he hasn't apologized. A willingness to learn has to go along with posting one's results as it IS an invitation to comment from others. Accurate feedback is valuable even if you don't recognize it at the time and apply it only much later. Precise terminology is necessary in a sport that counts on precision as its guiding principle.

Now you know. You didn't before. That has some value. If it was foolishness you wouldn't have taken the time to measure the dimensionality of your barrel. Accurately conveying said information is the final step and can't be foolishness.

Threads that are truly worthwhile carry on despite minor distractions. Somehow you've managed to carry on as witnessed by the posting earlier. This forum is notorious for slight hijacking and the moderators are somewhat tolerant. You're not the only one that's had a topic hijacked. Join the club. I just soldier on, as will you. Apologies again but this forum is what it is.

If Eutectic wants to continue he can PM me, but I would appreciate sticking to the correctness of the point I was making and nothing else that I obviously didn't say.

[Clay M]

I apologized for doing so already but you might want to thank Eutectic as well as he hasn't apologized. A willingness to learn has to go along with posting one's results as it IS an invitation to comment from others. Accurate feedback is valuable even if you don't recognize it at the time and apply it only much later. Precise terminology is necessary in a sport that counts on precision as its guiding principle.

Now you know. You didn't before. That has some value. If it was foolishness you wouldn't have taken the time to measure the dimensionality of your barrel. Accurately conveying said information is the final step and can't be foolishness.

Threads that are truly worthwhile carry on despite minor distractions. Somehow you've managed to carry on as witnessed by the posting earlier. This forum is notorious for slight hijacking and the moderators are somewhat tolerant. You're not the only one that's had a topic hijacked. Join the club. I just soldier on, as will you. Apologies again but this forum is what it is.

If Eutectic wants to continue he can PM me, but I would appreciate sticking to the correctness of the point I was making and nothing else that I obviously didn't say.

and you have taught me what?? absolutely nothing..You can't even make a good argument with Eutetic.

[35remington]

Correct terminology. That's important in conveying information accurately. Always was, or school meant nothing.

Eutectic is arguing with something he printed and dreamt up, not with something I actually wrote. He's arguing with himself. My point is clearly correct.

Any further commentary between us would be actively hijacking your own thread. I thought you wanted to stop that, and I will quit any further response if you agree to the same.

[Clay M]

Well...Goodbye...

[pkie44]

Dang, I'm out of popcorn! What ya think of the 30-30 Ackley?

[Bullshop]

In my 405 win rifle 4895 was ""THE"" powder. My rifle was a little different though. It was a re barreled B-78 Browning. Being a very strong single shot I maybe had a little more wiggle room for pressure. Also I was only shooting heavy 400 and 410gn boolits.
With this weight boolits I was getting very close to 1 moa at 2100 fps.
I did a just for fun test with a piece a channel iron 3/8" thick. I set the channel iron at 100 yards and shot it with the 410gn/2100fps load.
The steel channel did not bend at all but just has a perfect drilled hole through neat and clean. That's when I decided that the extra 200 fps I was getting from a 416 Rem with the same boolit was not needed.
I shot a small fork horn bull moose with the load but the boolits were hard cast soft nose. The ratio of hard to soft was 50/50 with 50% quench hardened base half and 50% pure lead nose. At about 80 yards the damage done to both shoulders of that moose was almost sinful there was so much waste. From that experience I learned that no matter what the total boolit weight about 30 to 40gn of pure lead for the nose works good to initiate expansion of the hardened portion of the boolit to get about a 50% increase in frontal area that then holds together.

[Clay M]

In my 405 win rifle 4895 was ""THE"" powder. My rifle was a little different though. It was a re barreled B-78 Browning. Being a very strong single shot I maybe had a little more wiggle room for pressure. Also I was only shooting heavy 400 and 410gn boolits.
With this weight boolits I was getting very close to 1 moa at 2100 fps.
I did a just for fun test with a piece a channel iron 3/8" thick. I set the channel iron at 100 yards and shot it with the 410gn/2100fps load.
The steel channel did not bend at all but just has a perfect drilled hole through neat and clean. That's when I decided that the extra 200 fps I was getting from a 416 Rem with the same boolit was not needed.
I shot a small fork horn bull moose with the load but the boolits were hard cast soft nose. The ratio of hard to soft was 50/50 with 50% quench hardened base half and 50% pure lead nose. At about 80 yards the damage done to both shoulders of that moose was almost sinful there was so much waste. From that experience I learned that no matter what the total boolit weight about 30 to 40gn of pure lead for the nose works good to initiate expansion of the hardened portion of the boolit to get about a 50% increase in frontal area that then holds together.

Thanks for your input Bullshop. Interesting stuff.

[Eutectic]

I too, Clay apologize for disrupting your thread as well as taking it off subject.....
Your original statement was fine to me and understandable. Yes 'bore' can also be a definition of the rifled hole.....

Now I'm all for precise, exacting, terminology in this complex hobby of ours. This terminology should require that no assumption needs to be made by the reader however...
I was not pleased with the censure you received! And reading the 'so called' correction was vague and required assumption from the reader.

Want an example?
He says:"The barrel of my #1 slugs .412 and the .406 nose is a snug fit in the bore, engraving the rifling's."
I say: "The barrel of my #1 slugs .4135"

Do I mean 'groove diameter' as well in my statement?? NO! I'm talking about the free bore section I mentioned it has.

So I tried some clarification to no avail... Being 'right' is more important than all the pertinent details it seems!

I hope you have good lucky with the Reloder 10x and all is forgiven.

Eutectic

[bigted]

WHEWWW MAN ... glad there is an end in sight. like to hear more on your 405 accuracy wise. i like the 40's as my 40-65 is a roller and a genuine hoot to shoot. ​thanks Clay for starting this thread and i hope you havnt run off yet!

[35 shooter]

I'd love to hear more on it as you work with it too as i feel like this will be the straight case i go with for my encore. I'm loving the 358009 280 gr. boolit in my 35 whelen, so this would be very kin to it, with more dia. Plus, like the whelen, it's just such a classic!

[Clay M]

I am currently renovating a house built around 45. I want my daughter to have it. I will load my .405 win and .308 win as much as possible.My daughters life comes first so I will do what I can and post whenever possible. Thanks for the interest in the .405....

[Bullshop]

Another tidbit for the 405 shooters. If you looking for an off the shelf mold that proved outstanding in the 405 look no further than the RCBS 416/350 fngc.
For my 405 with .4125" groove actually .4127" but not much difference anyway I found that for my rifle sizing to .415" gave the best accuracy. Sizing down the RCBS boolit was a non issue. I was a wee bit upset to learn what a dandy design the RCBS is for the 405 after having a couple custom molds made.
I did feel though that for my single shot rifle and the case volume the size of the 405 it did justify having a 400gn boolit for it. I have shot moose with both my custom designs and the RCBS design and all had the same effect, clean 1 shot kills with very little meat loss all accept for the one shot with the 50/50 hard/soft nose.

[bigted]

i would think that the 405 should do well with blackpowder loads as well. just sayin.

[Clay M]

I will buy a .415 sizer die and try the mold I already have. I like the design of the Accurate 41 325 BG brass mold .That mold should work well in my 95's as well. Thanks for the information.

[Clay M]

i would think that the 405 should do well with blackpowder loads as well. just sayin.

I had a 74 Sharps chambered in .40/70 SS .It would shoot ,but not without a lot of work.

[451whitworth]

the RCBS 417-350-FN is a great shooter but I hate the fact that it only comes in a single cavity block

[Clay M]

A single cavity mold works well for me as long as I am only loading for one rifle. If I am working with multiple guns I like a two cavity mold. I really like this brass mold. I usually try to cast about 200 bullets at a time.