Horizontal Mill or Shaper?

[Any Cal.]

Hi all,

I have been slowly learning to use some machine tools, and came across a horizontal mill and a shaper on CL. I have no experience with either, but have been looking for a vertical mill. When these came up, it had me wondering if it wouldn't be a better idea to pick up one or both of them for now.

The shaper comes with a vise, the mill only has one cutter.

Any words of wisdom or ideas? It seems like these could accomplish quite a bit without the tooling required for a vertical mill, but that could just be my inexperience talking. Any help or thoughts would be appreciated, I am supposed to go look at them in the AM.

[BigEyeBob]

Largely the mill has replaced the shaper over time , but there are some applications where a shaper is the tool for the job rather than a mill.

[GARD72977]

You will have to make almost all the cutters for the shaper. I always wanted one but doubt I would really need it. I bought a vertical mill with 3 axis DRO and have a horizontal attachment. It saves space and money. I have only put the horizontal attachment on twice.

[elk hunter]

I have both. The shaper excels in cutting splines, key ways and large dovetails but, sees little use. My horizontal mill is a size 0 Sheldon which is about the size of a bench mill but, has a heavy cast iron base. I use it to make mould blocks and for cutting extractor slots in barrels but, little else. The real work horse is my 10x54 vertical mill for which I also have a horizontal head. Unless you have some special need/use for a shaper or horizontal mill save your money and buy a good vertical mill and a lathe, you'll have what you need to do just about any kind of machine work.

[country gent]

The shaper can be very versatile with a skilled operator. It is slowas 1/2 the cut is lost in the ram returning to start over. The shaper puts less stress into the part than a mill does also. As said above you have to make cutters for the shaper, Normally an inexpensive square lathe bit ( We used alot of high speed cobalt bits.) this compared to a sometimes fairly expensive mill cutter. Mills cn be sharpened with proper tooling fixtures, the shaper bit you walk over to the pedestal grinder and touch it up. Alot can be done with the shaper. The shaperputs almost all the stress and heat into the chip that is coming off. We used the shaper to rough shapes and radiouss in. When a truly flat machined surface was needed the shaper got the go. The horizontial mill is a great machinea and is also very usefull. A stack up of cutters on the shaft can cut a form or shape. Some had vertical heads to go with them also. The cutters are more expensive to buy and maintain. Fluting can be dones easily on thhe horizontal mill with a means of indexing the part.Flat surfases can be done in one shot with a hob mill but again an expensive cutter. We did a plate for the railroad that had 2 holes and a 3* taper across one face with a hob mill in a big milwalkee horizontal. one pass under the hob mill and the alngeled surface was done. The shaper and horizontial mill have thier place. Bridgeport styyle mills are seldom as solid rigid a machine but are more versital machines

[cwheel]

Had years of time running both, sure like running a shaper, almost like going back in time 100 years. Shaper, or a larger metal plainer have advantages on some operations, and I sure like grinding my own tools for them, testing the outcomes. But I take it you aren't a large machine shop, but a hobbyist that could be setting up a garage shop ?? If that's the case, I'd pass on both of these and go for a lathe and a vertical mill. That is why most shops went that way years ago, it was a issue of higher tooling costs for the horizontal mill VS the cheaper cost of tooling for the vertical. Shaper still shines for some limited uses, but for general use for milling jobs it comes up short again. Square tool bits for the shaper are much cheaper than the mill, just the operation is much slower. Someone mentioned that half of the motion of a shaper is lost on the return stroke, the actual figure is 3/5 forward, 2/5 return on more than 90% of the machines out there. I'd save your money a little longer, a good used vertical mill can be had in the $2000-3000 range easy. Lots of larger shops have both shapers and horizontal mills, but most of the milling machine time now goes to a vertical unless it is a job that is ideally suited to one of these. They spend lots of time gathering dust these days.
Chris

[W.R.Buchanan]

Shapers are cool to watch, but as a basic tool they are not really what you're looking for.

Save your money and get a used Bridgeport.

Randy

[country gent]

At one time bridgeport made a small attachment fort he back of the rams o thier mills that was basically a small vertical shaper for internal blind keys. splines, or gears. I seen one in 30+ years as a tool and die maker. We made attachments to hold a pencil grinder in the spindle for light ingraving with the 2 axis machines. The bridgeport style mills while not as solid a machine are way more versatile. I have ran shapers and horizontal mills never a planer. They are a solid easy to use machine but set up can get involved. One plus to a shaper being slow is at home you can do other things during its pass. It does give the flatest surface between mills and it. One thats a real plus if you can find one is cinncinattis cinciversal mill it as a ram with mill head similar to bridgeport ( only one swivel joint) and a horizontsl shaft both in the same machine. We had a big version at one shop 12"or 14" x 96" ? table. When we rebuilt it Cincinattii said it was a proto type machine and one of 3 made. But it had both the overarm and horizontal spindles also. I seen one bench top shaper though cute little thing. First sop I worked at we would cut big internal keys in the shaper with a square bit in a boring bar. and feed table up. Was cheaper than a broach for one offs

[Any Cal.]

Thanks for all the comments. I liked the idea of the tools, but after looking at them, came to the conclusion that I should keep saving my money. The h-mill was small and needed repair, the shaper was small as well, and I didn't trust the seller. My plan was to buy both, but having only one still left a big need for a vertical mill.

On the bright side, had an enjoyable drive out to see them, and got to see a couple old classic machines run for a bit! Really wanted the shaper for the cheap bits and keyway slotting, but could see it sitting much more than working, and was worried about buying a resto project unintentionally.

[bangerjim]

Vertical mill!

A shaper is great for surfacing and cutting splines/grooves............and that's about all! Cutters are expensive and sometimes tough to find.

Vertical mills are universal! I do everything from surfacing to milling to grooves to surface grinding to drilling to boring to edging to......well you get the picture.

A horiz mil is nice to have but is an old technology and has very little use in today's vert mill market.

Save up and buy a GOOD modern vert milling machine that uses R8 tooling. Milling cutters are everywhere and are relatively cheap for TiN HSS. I use ONLY solid carbide.

bangerjim

[smokeywolf]

Save your money for a Bridgeport knee mill (aka "toolmaker's mill"), that's the ticket. Try to find a vari-speed head model instead of the step pulley head.

Had a 20 inch G & E shaper in the MGM Studio Machine Shop. I used it more than anyone else. Used it for blanking out 1-2-3 and 2-4-6 blocks and oft times other things that would be going into a mill vice for further machining. We just used lathe bits in the shaper head.
We also had 4 of the universal mills that country gent speaks of; 2 Van Normans, a Kearney & Trecker and a Brown & Sharpe No. 2.

All good advice above. Save for the Bridgeport and a good tool room or small engine lathe. Try to stick with American made iron. Second to American made is Japanese made. Taiwan made comes after that. I just couldn't bring myself to buy Chinese made machinery.

smokeywolf

[dragonrider]

As others have said get a vertical mill, Bridgeport or one of the clones, it's versatility cannot be beat.
"At one time Bridgeport made a small attachment fort he back of the rams o their mills that was basically a small vertical shaper for internal blind keys. splines, or gears." It is called an "E" head, and I have one hanging on the back of my Bridgeport. Cost me the princely sum of $100.00. Very handy tool for very specific jobs. Don't use it much but when I do it is the only tool for the job.

P.S. Buy the shape if the price is right, they are just to cool to pass up. I've have wanted one for years. Used to run a 24" hydraulic shaper. Man could that thing remove stock.

[jmorris]

As country gent said there was a shaper attachment for the Bridgeport mills. I know where one is, has been setting on the back of the mill for more than a decade unused.

CNC then 4th axis made it obsolete.

[country gent]

It had its place and some shops used them alot more than others. There arnt alot of blind internal keys cut any more. And alot do it with computer controled EDMs. We had wire edms for internal splines and such. But they could be done with that attachment. Like the shaper and planer they are old technology and cant be programed from the front offices.

[M-Tecs]

I know where one is, has been setting on the back of the mill for more than a decade unused.


I am looking for a Bridgeport slotting head. Is it for sale?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a Horizontal Attachment for my Bridgeports, and I also have an Angle Head and a Cherrying Head/Compound angle head) Never used the last one and it is for sale. It is nice too. It is also cheap.

Haven't used the Horizontal attachment in 15 years but it might get used some day so I will keep it till the end.

Randy

[M-Tecs]

Cherrying Head/Compound angle head???? I don't know what that is. Pictures or a link? Might be interested.

[cwheel]

Think the common term for these is " Slotting Attachment "
Chris

[M-Tecs]

Found what it is http://yabe.chudov.com/Bridgeport-Cherrying-Head/ebayhist.html For the right price I would like to have one.