.323 to .314 sizing

[toolness1]

Hello, first post here. Just started casting about 2-3 weeks ago. I wasn't 100% sure where to post this, I actually started to post it in an existing thread but didn't want to derail it with my own issue.

This is the thread I am speaking about:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?247930-Lee-324-175-mold-for-Mosins-with-throat-erosion-(pics)

Buckshot mentions seating a GC at .323 and then sizing that down to .314. I am aware that he knows his stuff, and I've seen it mentioned many other places, but it just isn't working for me.


I have the Lee 175gr .323 mold and was hoping to use it (sized down) in my 91/30 which slugs at .313. I bought the Lee push-thru .314 sizer and was hoping to size/GC at .323, then size down to .314. I have seen many people claim they do this without issue.

I found it was insanely hard to get them through the .314 sizer, even if I greased them really well. It also made the bullet look plain base, it moved lead down and did away with the gas check area of the base of the bullet. If I seated a gas check in the .323 sizer, then ran through the .314, it would turn the gas check inside out! (a Hornady .32/8mm gas check)

I am wondering what I am doing wrong, or why it's so much harder in my case to do this? I am using WW lead. These bullets I tried were probably 10+ days old, if that matters...

I thought about heating the bullets up some and trying it? Trying it on bullets cast the same day or day before?

I know that wouldn't solve the GC issue, but maybe it would help the lead to squeeze down better and not deform the bullet so much. I was also getting some streaking on the driving bands.

I also thought about polishing the .314 sizer real well with some 1000 grit paper. It's not exactly mirror smooth.

I appreciate any help. Sorry for the newb question and my difficulty explaining my issue. As I said, I first fired up my casting equipment less than 3 weeks ago.

Aside from that, let me say that I have immediately fallen in love with casting, and have already worked up very accurate cast/powder coated loads in my 8mm K98, 8x56R M95/34, 9x18 CZ82/PA-63, and 9x19 CZ-75B/EAA Witness.

Thanks!

[toolness1]

I would like to add another question:

I have seen that a GC design boolit can be used without the GC, as long as you keep the FPS down. Such as a 6-7gr Bullseye load going 1200fps max or so.

My question is: Can a powder coated GC design boolit, without the GC, be pushed harder, say with something like this load:
18gr of 2400 in the 8x57 Mauser? (which gives me 1500-1600 fps)

Thanks!

[Garyshome]

Have to size it a couple of times [different size sizing dies] to get it that small. Better off getting a closer mold size to what you need. Less work & strain on the press & you.
I have shot PC boolits @2400 fps.

[toolness1]

I thought that would be the case, too- having to do it in a couple steps to get down to .314, but when I was doing my research before trying this, I found many people saying they did that same amount of sizing in one step without problems. That's what got me to wondering "what the heck am I doing wrong?"

I am not sure what mold to go with since I need something around .314'', Lee is pretty much out (and I like Lee because I'm cheap and have had good luck with their stuff)

[wmitty]

I have tried what you are doing and had trouble too. Sizing very soon after casting is a big help; polishing the die will help, too. The easiest way I know of is using a fine lapping compound to roll the sized boolets in and running them back thru the die to smooth it up. This will slightly open the die some, depending on how much you want to polish it. I tried sizing with the gascheck going thru first (upside down) and this damaged the ogive, so went back to sizing nose first. If the throat of the MN will accept a slightly larger diameter boolet, then lap the die larger - say .315 or .316" this will help not distort the boolet when sized and should help accuracy, too.

[Larry Gibson]

I do this w/o any problems I've sized the 323470, the 323471 and the GB C325-190 to .314 in one pass.

The bullets must be sized, lubricated (the lube grooves MUST be completely full of lube) and GC'd before sizing down.

A good thicker brass GC may also be needed if not already used.

Thinner aluminum ones sometimes do not hold up.

Adding 2% tin to your WWs will make it a better alloy and a bit more malleable.

Adjust the Lee sizer out of the press so the ram just pushes the bullet through the sizing section. That will give maximum leverage with your press.

The picture shows a 323471 and the GB 325-190 that were sized and lubed at .325 in a Lyman H&I die. Lube is Javelina. GC is Hornady. Both were then sized at .314 in the Lee sizer.

Larry Gibson

112084

[dondiego]

The LEE C312- 155, 160, and 185 molds are designed for exactly what you want and often throw boolets of 0.315 or 0.314.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

...snip
I have the Lee 175gr .323 mold and was hoping to use it (sized down) in my 91/30 which slugs at .313. I bought the Lee push-thru .314 sizer and was hoping to size/GC at .323, then size down to .314. I have seen many people claim they do this without issue.
...snip
While lots of things are possible (and it's fun to experiment), somethings are just not a good idea, especially for a newbie. This is one of them, in fact, the RCBS cast bullet manual #1 says that for every 0.001" a cast bullet is sized down, you can expect 1" larger grouping at 100 yds. Now I know there is MANY variables involved with sizing and this particular statement is a generality at best, I still would expect some loss of accuracy when sizing a boolit down that much ...getting the correct mold is the best answer.
Good Luck,
Jon

[mdi]

I believe Mr. Gibson had shown this process to be workable, but I wouldn't have thought it do-able. First .009" is a lot to size a lead bullet, even soft ones (I have a bit of trouble sizing .003" down some hard .30 cal. bullets). Also, I wouldn't think swaging a copper/brass cup, supported by a lead mandrel, down .009" in diameter could be done without a large powered press...

jes an old machinist/mechanic's thoughts. But Mr. Gibson has don it, so I might be wrong.

[NavyVet1959]

Going from .323 to .314 is .009". I once tried going from 44mag to 10mm (.429 to .401), .028" and found it extremely difficult. Going from 44mag to 41mag (.429 - .410 = .019) first and then to 10mm (.410-.401=.009) was a bit easier, but it resulted in a lead ring being removed from the bullet. Casting a .41mag and then resizing to 10mm ended up being a better solution for me.

i found that I needed a cheater bar for increased leverage when resizing the .44mag to .41mag. It also made it easier on the resize to 10mm, but it wasn't always needed. Some presses might be a bit lightweight to be doing this extreme of resizing though. What press are you using?

[Larry Gibson]

The keys are;

to GC and lube all the grooves fully. You can see how the unlubed grooves in the 323471 are getting swaged away.

to adjust the die so you have maximum leverage with your press. If you raise the ram and the screw the sizer down to the shell holder you won't have max leverage when the bullet starts to size.

Navy vet1959

You're trying to swage a lot more alloy with that larger diameter bullet. Probably not a valid comparison to the smaller .323 diameter bullets. Also if those were SWCs or had a should on the forward drive band then a more polished taper is needed.

Larry Gibson

[NavyVet1959]

Navy vet1959

You're trying to swage a lot more alloy with that larger diameter bullet. Probably not a valid comparison to the smaller .323 diameter bullets. Also if those were SWCs or had a should on the forward drive band then a more polished taper is needed.


i was just trying to point out that it is *possible* to resize that much of a diameter, but you might need a bit more leverage (e.g. a cheater bar). A resizing die that worked off an arbor press might be an interesting design though. Even with a cheater bar, I'm not concerned with exceeding the design of the linkages of my arbor press. I can't say the same about the single stage press that I use, even though it is pretty robust.

[CATTLEMAN]

I am suprised that you are having difficulty, I do what you are describing with a lyman sizer and can get it done easily. Possibly your lucky enough to have a really hard WW. Try mixing some pure lead to the mix to soften it a little and it should make it a lot easier. Depending on your barrel / throat you may want to size less. I often size to .316 to.319 for my mosins, as fat as the throat will allow. I have a custom sizer die from buckshot, it is GREAT! I have considered anealing the gas checks, to make sizing easier among other things, but havent actually done it yet. What type of press are you using the push through sizer in? In my experience different makes / models of presses can vary a lot in offered mechanical advantage. If you are using a really stout press you might be able to use a longer handel, or a cheater on the handel, BUT YOU MIGHT BREAK THE PRESS so do it at your own risk. Also I have noticed the alloy firming up in my casts after they sit on the shelf for a while (age). You might try sizing the same day as cast as they might be slightly softer. I bought a "small" 8 mm mold (.321) specifically to size down for all these "fat 30" mil surp type rifles. That might be an option for you as it reduces the diameter change during sizing. My regular 8mm mold actually casts about .328 so it requires a lot of reduction.

Hope these ideas help.

Best of luck and good shootin!

[JeffG]

Toolness1,

I just went down this road, getting the idea from Buckshot to size the .323 bullets down to .314. Actually mine were sized from .325 to .314. I paid attention to Larrys advice and it went well. Take a look at this thread, near the bottom I have the detail, etc. The first couple I pushed through were mangled but I think that was my technique, trying to push too hard too fast. I slowed it down, pushed through slowly but firmly and that came out great. I anchored the press handle against my body with both hands so I could really control the stroke.

Good luck. [smilie=f:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?249076-Mosin-91-30-Neck-Expander-Die

[Green Lizzard]

i take a 358 bullet to 350 (348 win) but i was getting some deformed checks, so i went base first and stopped the problem. the bases are dome shaped like the speer plinker, but they shoot great. i even had to make a sizer for the nose to get my oal in the crimp groove, groups at 100 yds run 2 to 3 inches with the peep and a front sight that looks like a soccer ball. 348 molds are hard to find and costly

[rintinglen]

Following Larry's advice worked for me in turning some .359 boolits into .350 boolits. I added a layer of 45/45/10 over the lubed, GC'D, sized boolits to ease the effort of downsizing. One thing to look at is the smoothness of your sizer. Lee stays cheap by not adding a lot of hand-work to their products. A little elbow grease and some 600 grit sand paper may help reduce your struggles.

[Shiloh]

I would imagine that getting all the moved lead to distribute evenly throughout the boolit would be a real challenge.

Shiloh

[sawzall]

I have great success sizing lee tl356-95-rf which drop @ .3585" with acww in one pass after dip lubing in 45-45-10 and letting it dry...down to .329" and use them in my 8mm French Ordnance M1892. They get quite a bit longer and have a very slight ring around the base where the lead extrudes over the base punch but they work and shoot fantastic for me. The 2 tiny lube grooves stay and they need no more lube. They size down almost .030" in one shot effortlessly. If I try base first they turn into wadcutters.

[n.h.schmidt]

I have done this. I took the lee 8mm bullet down to .314 . I did this so the nose and body would be at .314 for paper patching. It worked nicely. A single pass in a home made die. Larry has it right about having the bullets lubed first.
What does work is gas check, heavy dip lube in lee liquid alox or anything really thick. If the Lee let it dry to a really thick goo. Push through in one steady pass. You do want the die as far out of the press as you can and still have the bullet get through. I'm going to give Lyman's Super moly bullet lube a special mention. I rub that on really really thick (the bullet silly). The bullet pushes through with about a FL case sizing effort. That stuff even works on jacketed slugs when sizing down a large amt.
n.h.schmidt

[JeffinNZ]

I bought a 280468 a while back with the idea of sizing to shoot in my Carcano. Finally got it humming. Made a Lee style push through die and fill the lube grooves prior to sizing for primo results. Sizing it down .011, see below.

http://floydpics.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/dscn4710.jpg

L-R. 280468 sized .269 in Lyman 4500, sized .269 in push through, sized .269 in push through with grooves full (lube removed for photo), as cast.

[gpidaho]

Check out the group buy 338 ultramag is running Im getting one for my very fat 30 Mosin Nagant He is giving an option as to bullet girth. Good luck and welcome to the wonderful insanity. GP