I need some help on trouble shooting poor goups with a 1866 45 Colt

[bubbapug1]

I need some help!
I have a Uberti 1866 in 45 Colt. I loaded up some loads using Silhouette (9.1 grains) and a 200 grain RNFP lead Missouri cowboy bullets.

I want to use the gun to match shoot silhouettes at 50 and 100 yards. The gun has a 24” barrel.

Today I practiced offhand at 50 yards and shot 15 rounds, all within a 6” circle, which is as good as I can shoot in offhand, even with a match rifle. Off of rests the gun does a 4” group at 50 yards

When I move to 100 yards my group off of a rest is 8” wide by 30” vertical, which is horrible.

The cartridge cases are very sooty, and I am getting some blow back in the face. Sometimes gas, sometimes gas and burnt powder, but not a lot of powder.

I am thinking the brass is not obturating, and the velocities are so all over the map the spread vertically is way off. Of course I probably should chrony the load, but I left it at home. I will jack the load up to 9.7 grains which puts me at max pressure for the gun, at around 12,200 psi. It’s a brass frame after all!

Anyone care to speculate what the issue is?

[plainsman456]

Are you using a good crimp?

[Nobade]

I have the same problems when using smokeless powder. Things that help:
1. Anneal the cases
2. Only resize enough to hold the boolit
3. Use boolits big enough to barely fit into a fired case (requires a custom expander plug)
4. Use fast powder that will burn completely at low pressure like Red Dot

-Nobade

[Pb2au]

Pretty much what Nobade said. He nailed
Sooty cases are telling us the case is not sealing the chamber, as result of generous chamber, or not enough pressure to seal up. Also, as he said, as big a boolit you can muster.
Give some thought to trying black powder.........

[salvadore]

I had an Uberti '73 short rifle. I tried Pyrodex to 2400, titegroup, Bullseye and 231. Used laser cast, Lyman's 454190, Lee's 255 rnf and other bullets that I had to load single due to OAL. The rifle was pretty but sucked for accuracy. Purchased a Chiappa '92 with cheesy sights. Took it to the range with various loads worked up for the Uberti and was able to keep all of them pretty close to 2" @ 50 yds.

I never figured out how to get any accuracy from the Uberti. Good luck with '66.

[snaketail]

Sorry did a bad edit, see below

[snaketail]

I have found that many .45 Colt rifles are shooting best with .454 boolits. I used .452 at first and got awful leading. After a couple of years of trial-and-error I settled on 20gr of IMR4227 with a 255gr boolit. I use a firm crimp. (This load is listed as a "Cowboy" load in the Hodgon manual). I shoot this load in Lever Action Silhouette and pretty much use the same sight picture from 40 to 100 yards... low on chickens, and high on rams - pigs and turkeys are "on".
I had tried HP38, Unique, and other "fast" powders, but my best results came with IMR 4227. Its a bit dirty, but accurate.
Your results may vary.

M

[doc1876]

I have been told that was the reason that the guns were not made in .45 in the old days. The bottleneck cartridges alleviate this. other than that, I give a 2nd to what Nobade said.

[Larry Gibson]

Had many of the same problems with several 45 Colt lever guns. After much trial and error I settled on 195-205 gr cast sized .454 and loaded over 7.3 gr Bullseye. In FLORIDA sized cases it obturates to seal the chamber. Velocity runs 1150-1200 fps with excellent accuracy to 200 yards. The psi runs just under the SALAMI MAP of 14,000 psi (measured).

An excellent SAA revolver load also.

Larry Gibson

[M-Tecs]

I have been told that was the reason that the guns were not made in .45 in the old days. The bottleneck cartridges alleviate this. other than that, I give a 2nd to what Nobade said.

The reason 45 colt was not chamber in anything other than the 1873 army was the style of ballon head case the 45 colt used didn't have enough rim to be used for extraction.

In 1909 the rim was increased for extraction in the 1909 Colt double action revolver.

To prevent sooting you need more pressure or softer cases. Starline recommends annealing for low pressure loads.

45LC IN .410 CHAMBER (REVOLVER)
RAMSHOT SILHOUETTE
200 (L) LC RNFP 11.6 891 13.6 1,084 13,722 1.560

[bubbapug1]

Ramshot silhouette at 13.6 grains in 45 C with a 200 grain bullet will generate around 23,000 psig would which probably blow the toggle right out of my 1866.....

[Nobade]

Even though you said you wanted to go with smokeless, real black powder is the best bet since you'll get the most performance possible within allowable pressure limits. Probably be the most accurate as well. I know it sure works in my guns, most every pistol caliber rifle or handgun I have now runs on black. No subs!

-Nobade

[searcher4851]

I agree with both of Nobade's posts. The holy black is the way to go, but if you must go smokeless, his earlier suggestions will be your best bet. On the rare occasion I don't run black, I've used Red Dot with reasonable success. I just hate wasting all that case space.

[M-Tecs]

Ramshot silhouette at 13.6 grains in 45 C with a 200 grain bullet will generate around 23,000 psig would which probably blow the toggle right out of my 1866.....

I edited my post above. The load I mistakenly listed is for 45LC IN .410 CHAMBER (REVOLVER). Sorry for the bad info.

[flint45]

I would slug that barrel like we talked about at the range.Try a bigger dia. .454 and more crimp. I have a Ruger Vaquero .45 colt that shoots black powder better then any smokeless load Ive tried so far.See you at the range good luck.

[bubbapug1]

My thanks to all of the help and suggestions on this problem.

I did a follow up trip to try to find an accurate load yesterday.

I loaded up, shot, and chronied the following ammo – all 45 Colt:

200 Grain Missouri RNFP lead bullets
7.3 grains green dot
7.7 grains green dot
9.9 grains silhouette

230 grain Xtreme plated bullet round nose
9.0 grains silhouette
6.7 grains green dot

255 grain SWC laser cut bullet – lead
6.3 grains green dot
6.8 grains green dot
8.4 grains silhouette

I also shot my original test loads (9.0 grains silhouette) which had poor accuracy over the chrony to see what was happening with them.

200 Grain Missouri RNFP lead bullets

7.3 grains green dot – 12” group, one big flyer soot on cases, but not too bad
Chrony avg = 1121 fps / deviation +/- 17 fps (four shots)

7.7 grains green dot – 10” group, some soot on some cases
Chrony avg = 1188 fps / deviation +/- 10 fps (four shots)

9.9 grains silhouette – 8” group, very light soot on some cases
Chrony avg = 1036 fps / deviation +/- 40 fps (four shots)


230 grain Xtreme plated bullet round nose

9.0 grains silhouette = 6” group, very slight soot on some case
Chrony avg = 1054 fps / deviation +/- 7 fps (3 shots)
(best load tested)

6.7 grains green dot = 6” group, very slight soot on some case
Chrony avg = 1030 fps / deviation +/- 5 fps (3 shots) Hardly any soot on cases

250 grain SWC laser cut bullet lead

6.3 grains green dot = Group exceeded target frames (24 x 48”)
Chrony – 993 fps / deviation +/- 7 fps (3 shots)
Bullet was stable (clean holes) just not accurate.
Very little soot on cases

6.8 grains green dot = Group exceeded target frames (24 x 48”)
Chrony – 1045 fps / deviation +/- 5 fps (3 shots)
Bullet was stable (clean holes) just not accurate.
No soot on cases – some cases had bulged bases

8.4 grains silhouette= Group exceeded target frames (24 x 48”)
Chrony – 1025 fps / deviation +/- 2 fps (3 shots)
Bullet was stable (clean holes) just not accurate.
No soot on cases

Original load 9.0 grains Silhouette, 200 grain Missouri bullet Lead RNFP
Mild to heavy soot.
10” x 36” groups
Chrony – 958 fps / Deviation +/- 65 fps (5 shots)

Notes:

My green dot is pretty old, about 4 years. It could be a bit weaker than a new jug.

The laser cut bullets were just horrible out of my gun. I could see the dust jump on the right and left of the frame from shot to shot. Vertical was just out of range too. I am not sure why. On the occasional hit on paper the bullet had a very nice clean hole, so they were being stabilized.

All of these bullets have a BC of less than 0.1 which is just horrible, and wind has a tremendous affect on them right to left.

I am not sure why quick Load is so far off on the velocities on these loads. They were all calculated at around 1300 fps, and the heaviest load was supposed to be a bit faster. I tend to trust the chrony as the velocities used at 1000 yards tend to be within a MOA of calculated data.

I shot some 2" groups with my AR off the rest with iron sights, so no, its not me.....its the ammo in this case I believe, but I am vain.

[CGT80]

I wonder what would happen if you tried some 225 grain round nose boolits sized to 0.452" and then powder coated one or two times to increase the diameter. Looks like the 230 RN is working best for you. I have red dot as well, so that is an easy one to try. I use 6.0 grains of red dot under the 230 rn for my 45 colt load, but they are sized to 0.452" for my revolver.


flint45, do you shoot at west end?

[bubbapug1]

Yes, he does. I met him there Monday.

I'm going to boost the loads a wee bit more to see what happens. I think they will level out around 4 Moa if I do my part. Right now they are still a bit slow but the variations in velocities is improving.

if I can't get there with a 45 than I'll get a 30-30!!

[GoodOlBoy]

My 2 cents.

I shoot ALOT of 45LC. What I have found works best for me is a 250-255gr RNFP cast lead. I shoot trail boss by volume, or Unique following manufacturer specs on both. In my carbine .454 sized fairly soft bullet will leave NO leading, and I will have zero soot/char on the cartridges. I would never shoot a lighter bullet in a 45LC rifle or carbine as every one I have tried personally has had groups similar to yours. 270gr Keith bullets shot very accurate, but wouldn't feed so I had to single load them. 300 grain long RNFP, WFN, or truncated cone bullets worked extremely well for me. However I was buying these cast by another company at the time, and haven't been able to find a mold for them that I was willing to buy yet. Overall I have never found a more accurate bullet in any 45LC I have ever shot than a 250gr or heavier RNFP PB. Forget the gas check designs altogether as you don't need them for light, or cowboy loads. ALWAYS put a GOOD roll crimp on a 45LC bullet. If you don't you will get such a variation of group and speed (depending on powder and bullet) that I doubt you would be able to hit the broad side of a barn. And forget trying to load them "long" for engraving, reducing jump, etc. That's pure malarkey in cowboy guns. Load them for a OAL that fits within specs, or just a hair longer for heavier bullets, and work on your load as you are already doing. But remember two things. #1 is that good roll crimp, and #2 is to stay away from ANYTHING less than 250grs for a light load in a 45LC.

Again My 2 cents

GoodOlBoy

[AlaskanGuy]

I think this could be your ticket......

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?241573-55-430-310-FN-(Lee-Copy-improved)

Josh has a group buy going on right now for those fatties for the 45 cal folks to drop at .454 (if you can squeeze it in) .452 if not, with weight to be around 325 depending on alloy.... Might be just the thing for that Uberti and smokeless, or BP...

AG

[bubbapug1]

My rifle seems to not like the 250 grain bullets. They were the worst if the lot. I tried them with three different loads too. None produced a group less than 3 feet.

The 200 lead and 230 grain plated each shot 6" groups. I'm going down that path to try to get a bit better or I'm going to just get a 30-30 for silhouettes and sell off my rifle, brass, and dies.

[snaketail]

I think I see the problem - are you shooting the .45 Colt at 200 yard targets?
I tried that at first - with minimal results. The rainbow trajectory made consistent hits a bit difficult. Shooters with .357 mags can do better than the .45 Colt - less rainbow trajectory.
Get the 30-30 for the longer range targets, but use the .45 Colt for Pistol Cartridge matches - it isn't ideal, but it it isn't too bad either.

[bubbapug1]

I intended to use the 45 colt for 100 yard matches, but 6" groups ain't going to get it done. I don't think the gun will pull in tighter groups than that no matter what I do brass prep wise.

I have a 38 spl 1866 which is slicked up and shoots much tighter, and I only will use that at 50 yards.

[snaketail]

OK, this is something I learned and I had to promise not to tell about it. My .45 was all over the place at 100 yards - way wider spread than a ram.
A wise shooter told me to do two things: 1. Use JB Bore Paste and clean the dickens out of the bore - even if you do nothing else this might do the trick. 2. Then use Dyna-Tek Bore Cote.
The JB Bore Paste will clean out all the fowling, leading & "stuff". The Dyna-Tek will coat you bore and make a tiny bit smaller - 1 micron (the length you hair grows in the time it takes to read this sentence), makes clean-up faster too.
Sounded like voodoo science to me, but I was at the point of getting rid of the .45 or getting it to shoot. So I did the steps above and the bottom line is I won my class in Pistol Cartridge at the Oklahoma Regionals. I think I'll keep the .45 now. Not saying this is your answer - but I did work for me.

Part 2:
I see a lot of guys sight their rifle in from a bench. But, when you sent to shoot in a match you hold the rifle differently - different than the bench does. So, support you rifle where you hold it in a match - use a towel or some soft cushion under the rifle. I use the Artillery Hold (I think that's what its called) so I support my bench shots back near the lever. Then I check my settings by shooting off-hand - as I would in a match.

Finally:
You are suppose to use the same rifle throughout the match - can't use a .38 at 50 yards and .30-30 for the rest of the targets...gotta be the same rifle for all distances.

Best of luck.
M

[salvadore]

I don't buy many bullets, but if any you are using have a bevel base they aren't your friends. My best sort of like groups resulted from GCed bullets, the cleaner the base the better. I could never get a decent slug from my rifle mostly because of the shallow rifling. That may be why accuracy always sucked. If you are not as cheap as I am you could try some jacketed loads.

I think I tried everything. When I got my Chiappa '92 in .45 Colt I took it and two loads I had tried unsuccessfully in the Uberti. I sighted the rifle in with a Lee RNFP and 17.3 grains of 2400, yes I know. After sighting it in, 2" 50yd groups were the norm, about half the very best I ever shot with the Uberti. They chrony about 1350 from the 20" barrel. The other was a regular saami pressure load using the Remington swaged hollow base. They also shot into 2", but more than a foot higher.

Does your rifling seem shallow?

[MtGun44]

"trouble shooting poor groups" - Heck, I have been shooting poor groups
for years. Not a lot to it in my experience, jerk the trigger just right and
stare hard at the target, don't pay much attention the front sight - and
there you are - another poor group. I'm sure there are other methods,
but this has worked for me for years.

:kidding: :bigsmyl2:
Bill

[flint45]

Hello bubbapug1 an CGT80 good to know other shooters at west end. I have a marlin 94 that shoots the same way I get ok groups close range with light bullets but at 100 its just patterns so I slugged the bore and found I had three very tight spots under the roll mark and rear dove tail and dove tail for forend mount.. Boolit is loose fit rest of the way out cant be good.Good luck guys see you at the range.

[CGT80]

Hi flint45, have you shot the lever action match at west end? I shoot a win 94 from the early 70's, in 30-30. I have not shot paper to test the groups with my latest boolit. I was able to hit 5 of 10 steel chickens just past the 100 yard rifle line, from the 200 yard pad. I can consistently ring a 12" round steel plate at 100 yards. That seems to get the job done for me. My last rifle match score was 31 out of 40 targets. To be honest, I don't really know how tight of a group is necessary for a lever action silhouette match. I do it for fun and I try to get better, but I am happy if I hit the steel plates. Shooting paper is boring, unless I am doing something like action pistol or 3 gun. I wonder what kind of groups the other shooters are getting in that match. I have been in the top 5 for a few months and finally won a match last time out. My rifle is a shorty with stock open sights. My hold is out at the end of the stock (like I use for shooting an AR in 3 gun) rather than close to the receiver like most other lever action shooters. The one thing I have going for me is good eye sight, as long as I am wearing my glasses.

Bubbapugs rifle might do just fine for that match, but I know he likes to be as accurate as possible.

Well, I hope to see ya out there some time. I drive an White 88 Chevy K5 Blazer with 35" mud tires and a 6" lift, so say hi if you see me. Chris

[bubbapug1]

I got the 45 colt down to 6" groups with an occasional flyer which I have no clue where it goes!

I did a lot of work to get there too!! Three trips with a total of 18 loads to arrive at one which kind of produces.

The 30-30 should do at least 2 Moa at 100 yards. I'm going to try one mañana but with factory ammo. I never have much luck with factory ammo!!

Post 30-30 test...I think I'll stick with 45 colt! The 30-30 has a bit of a bite!! Yes it's more accurate, but the recoil is pretty heavy.

While I love the concept of accuracy, the reality is I am not a great shot.

[hightime]

I've had a bit of accuracy problems with my 45 Colt loads in my Uberti too. I haven't yet been able to cast my own that work as well as Rem. 455 dia. swaged. With this bullet I can murder the inside of a barn.

[flint45]

Hello west end members no I have not been to the lever gun match.I am at church sunday mornings but sounds like fun used to run a buffalo silhouette match in redlands that was fun tell the range was closed. Took my 94 marlin out the other day and i had'nt shot it at paper in years at 100 yards it was bad best i can come up with 2 foot groups at 50 yards minute of pie plate! I am goin to fire lap and see what happens.

[bigted]

ok ... so im going to repeat what the cure has been with many 45 colt rifles. has been suggested here above but i do not see many trying it out. so here goes with a repeat of what has brought accuracy to many 45's in lever guns.

1- take a fired case that has been shot from your rifle.
2- slightly flair the unsized mouth of the case to remove any leftover crimp.
3- measure the inside of the case mouth.
4- THIS size is what you will do best with in your rifle.

5- now find a boolit of this size ... or get a pushthru size die for sizing boolits of the exact size needed and size larger boolits to your needed diameter.
6- NO case sizing required for the loading of these boolits ... just flair slightly so no lead shaving is done and load em on top of your 100% powder charge.
7- crimp slightly to remove the flair and if needed ... get a 45 Colt lee factory die to provide more crimp.
8- now load 10 or 20 of these loads and scamper off and see if they don't group better then the too small boolits did.
9- try ... i say ..."TRY" ... the real blackpowder under these boolits too just to see what the original loads were like and how accurate ... the original 45 Colt loads of 2 or 3 F blackpowder were of 38 grains compressed with the boolit.
10- now that you have some accurate loads and boolits for your 45 lever ... report back with your success.

not too scientific but it has gotten the job done for several folks that have not gotten steller success with their 45 levers ... like my Winchester/Miroku '92' with the snazzy 24 inch round barrel. it takes a .456 inch diameter and sometimes i load .457 inch diameter and she came rite to life ... my brass even lasts longer now as well and the blowby all but stopped.

good luck.

[bigted]

just finished with loading 10 cases with as follows;

- 457122 Lyman bold that i cut off the hollow point pin so it is now a 350 grain flatnose boolit of .457 inch.
- primed with cci large pistol primers.
- powdered with 30 grains GOEX 2F powder and compressed with the boolit to a OAL of 1.600 inch.
- seated and crimped slightly with RCBS carbide dies.
- boolits lubed with SPG thru a Lyman lube/sizer with .459 inch die installed so i didn't bother the as cast boolit ... just lubed it.
- now all i need is an informal place to shoot em ... that and get my casting table setup so i can make some more of these little charmers.

these run thru my Winchester in fine shape. i do not have to size my cases for the oversize chamber. and best of all ... they do a great job at the 50 yard plinkin range i like to play at.

[hightime]

Makes sense to me.