70 gr .45 swc at 2300 fps or 230 gr swc at 700 fps?

[bannor]

if you'd prefer the latter, it's cause you've never seen animals hit with each. :-) The 2300 fps load requires a large, conical hollow base, 460 Rowland brass, a fully-supported barrel and a solid copper bullet (machined on a lathe). Even tho neither one expands, both ARE .45's, :-) One of them is AP, tho and the other is not. the 2300 fps load has almost 800 ft lbs, the 700 fps load has 280 ft lbs. Both grossly overpenetrate animals as thick as a man. Would you rather have a load that wastes 1/3rd of 780 ft lbs or one that wastes 1/3rd of 280 ft lbs ? When you see the results of shooting critters, you'll know which one is more likely to have the desired effect. They have identical momentum, shapes and "frontal area". In fact, the 230 gr lead swc (H&G semi-custom mod to the #68 swc mold) is SAID to have better potential (by Hatcher) due to it being lead. :-) Hatchers stopping power theory was just a swag, he had no real research or reasoning behind it. When you look at the Thompson Leguarde animal and cadaver tests, they proved nothing at all. Leguarde, in his later book, Gunshot Injuries, LIED about the test results, as reading of the original material reveals. Cooper and others have spread the lies for many decades now.

[gtgeorge]

Why would you compare the 70 gr bullet shot in a modified platform as fast as it will go to the 230gr almost as slow as it will go in an unmodified platform. Why not shoot a 230gr as fast as you can push it in the 460 Roland config? How close are the results then? Inquiring minds would like to know.

[Cap'n Morgan]

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag248/driftwood4/6308d9b1-0044-493f-b216-36837202cf44_zpsa3ad1055.jpg

[Jupiter7]

Not even sure why 230gr at 700fps is even a variable. GI ball was 830fps. Also don't know where this post was supposed lead. Kinda troll-ish... In the USA we like 45auto and it's well proven track record for it's intended purpose.

[downzero]

Even if everything in the original post is true, it does not follow that a lighter bullet at a higher velocity always results in more lethality.

[jmsj]

bannor,
I would like to see the studies you used to base this on. I would also like to see comparative data using 70gr bullet @ 2300 fps and a 230 grain conventional bullet @ 1200 fps from a 460 Rowland. Handicapping the 230 gr. bullet at below 45 acp standard velocity vs. a 460 Rowland load really skews the comparison.
I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm just trying to understand where you re coming from. A lot of us have seen very good results (lethality/penetration) from shooting standard or heavy for caliber .44-.45 caliber boolits at moderate velocities (1000 fps-1350 fps MV) on large animals
jmsj

[bannor]

I compare them because they have the same MOMENTUM, the same caliber, the same shape. In other words, according to the momentum/frontal area theory, they should be identical in effect on impact with live targets, but they AINT, believe it. :-)

[bannor]

obviously, you guys aint read my post carefully. 230 grs at 1200 fps is not sufficiently controlable in rapidfire, with a lw, compact ccw pistol, regardless of how "effective' the hit might be. In combat, most shots miss the man completely at a mere 7 yds, and most hits are poor hits, and many attackers have buddies with them, so repeat hit speed IS important. but that's not what my original post was about. It's about the "belief" (without reason) that momentum and frontal area are good predictors of target-effect. They aint, not when lighter bullets can be (and are) driven much, much faster.

I don't need "studies", I made these bullets myself, shot them over my chrono, and shot critters with them. I had Wayne Gibbs make me a 230 gr version of his 200 gr #68 swc .45 mold, way back in 1978. It casts a very superior bullet. Originally, as H and G shipped the mold to me, the beveled base was much too long, the bullets keyholed badly. Wayne had set it up to throw 230 gr bullets with #2 Lyman alloy. They weighed 238 grs with my alloy and did not coincide with 230 gr ball POI on the target, with my normal load.

Wayne told me to fill it with my alloy and ship it back to him. he used a surface grinder (or mill, I forget which he said) to shave down the top of the mold until the bullets weighed 230 grs. When I got it back, it worked just fine. :-) My partner worked up a load with Blue Dot that got 1000 fps from a 1911, normal .45 brass. I thought it had entirely too much recoil for ccw, used in an alloy commander, tho. :-) My repeat hit speed went from averaging under .20 second to averaging over .35 second (or getting poor hits at a mere 5 yds, using the commander).

[shooter93]

Once again....while not claiming to be an expert.....big bullets moving at moderate velocities stop things. And I'm not knocking you but there are shooters who handle the recoil of a 45 acp quite handily and are extremely fast repeat shooters.

[salty dog]

They weighed 238 grs with my alloy and did not coincide with 230 gr ball POI on the target, with my normal load.


You were concerned over the POI shift with an eight grain heavier bullet but are advocating going from 230 to 70 grains?