Mauser experts needed, help!

[Vulcan Bob]

Howdy all, I need some help identifying what action type I have to order a new trigger for it. The rifle is a very nice sporterized Mauser of some sort, in 243 Win. Whoever did the work did a rather nice job, nice and trim, handsome light weight rifle but removed all markings from the receiver save the serial number on the left side of the receiver. It appears to be a small ring receiver. Any measurements I can take to make sure of what I have? I bought this one for my Grandson a number of years ago and he is about ready to receive it next year. Had it out to the range today and managed some 3/4th inch groups with Federal fusion 100gr and 80gr loads at 100 yards but the horrible stock trigger made it a real chore. Before giving it to him I would like to install a new trigger asy in it as its a tough one to shoot even for an experienced shooter. Any help will be appreciated!

[Yodogsandman]

Measure the center to center of the action screws and also the receiver diameter. A picture showing the action and bolt would also be nice to see.

[Vulcan Bob]

Hey there Yodogsandman, Would have posted picture but I cannot upload em here from my computer. Center to center on the action screws are 7 1/2". Sorta hard to measure with a caliper but rear of receiver by the oval shaped gas relief port 1.278". Bolt face is round on top and flat on bottom, two front locking lugs, bolt handle appears to have been welded to a turn down bolt and cocks on closing. Can you tell I'm not a rifleman? Hope this makes sense, thanks!

[Mk42gunner]

Hey there Yodogsandman, Would have posted picture but I cannot upload em here from my computer. Center to center on the action screws are 7 1/2". Sorta hard to measure with a caliper but rear of receiver by the oval shaped gas relief port 1.278". Bolt face is round on top and flat on bottom, two front locking lugs, bolt handle appears to have been welded to a turn down bolt and cocks on closing. Can you tell I'm not a rifleman? Hope this makes sense, thanks!

The description of the bolt face sounds like a '93 Mauser to me, with out digging mine out to check.

Robert

[Yodogsandman]

Need the diameter of the front of the receiver. Take a look at the photos in the thread "I Need A Milsurp Fix". Doe it look like one of those? That description of the flat bottom of the bolt and oval gas relief port helps. I like the Bold triggers with side safety from Boyds Gun Stocks. I also like the Timney triggers with the side safety at MidwayUSA. I have both on my guns, mostly Timney's.

Could be you have a Mauser 93 or 95, the triggers will fit either.

[Vulcan Bob]

Hey there Yodogsandman, I pulled it out of the wood and the front of the receiver measures 1.290", an inch and a quarter for government work. If you get to the Smith & Wesson forum I have posted pictures in the Knives and other firearms thread, I use the same user name as here. Thanks all for the help!

[MtGun44]

Cock on closing is a 93 or 95. Flat bottom on bolt face makes it a 93.
Frankly, these actions are normally not recommended for full pressure
modern cartridges like the .243. They are generally recommended
for a maximum of 45,000 psi instead of the modern 60,000 psi
pressures that modern factory ammo usually uses.

Bill

[Yodogsandman]

A Model 1895 Spanish Mauser and Spanish Mauser of 1916 also have flat bottom bolt faces and have been chambered for both 7mm Mauser and .308 Winchester.

[runfiverun]

the 7 mauser is held to the lower [45-k] pressure too,,, because of the older mausers.
and if it's 7.62X51 nato [not 308 win] it's a lower pressure round also...

[KCSO]

If that is a 93, and the descriptions sounds like it, I would be sticking to light loads in it. The 93 was designed with no safety lug and very little gas relief and the 7MM Mauser ctg operates at less pressure than a 243. I have never considered that the 93 action was suitable for high pressure conversions.

[UBER7MM]

I've replaced Spanish 1916 trigger with a Thimney deluxe (with side safety) about 15 years ago. There is a hole in the bottom of the action the original trigger employed that may need to be plugged. I believe the new custom trigger needs to bare on the absent surface. I remember talking to my gunsmith on the necessity of silver soldering it place. We'd would have lost the bluing and decided against it. The pressure from the trigger set screw holds it place.

98 Mauser triggers are bit less work, but not much. I've installed a Boyd trigger on a 98 Mauser. Same quality for half the price. (Both triggers were made in USA).

When installing these custom triggers, there might be some filing and fitting of the action and trigger guard to get them to work correctly. You'll definitely need to mortise out the stock a bit to fit the new trigger. The custom triggers I've installed do help the performance. I've stopped carrying a crow bar with my rifle. (Exaggeration!)

[Yodogsandman]

Vulcan Bob, If you do get an aftermarket trigger, be sure to tighten the locking nuts after making any adjustments before hunting with it. A kid could shoot the first deer they shoot at in the foot because of a hair trigger...Don't ask me how I know!

Good luck to your grandson on his first hunt!

[Vulcan Bob]

Thanks for all the info! Well break out the hammer and grab a nail, I'm going to nail shut the lid on the idea of giving this one to my Grandson. With the cautions of standard pressure 243 Win ammo being too much for this action I just cant take the chance. My son in law although an avid hunter shows no interest in hand loading and since he is still in the service who knows where he will be stationed and the availability of safe reduced loads for this rifle will be a iffy thing. I think I will keep this one here where I can keep a eye on it. I also have a nice Marlin 336 in 30-30 Win with a receiver sight on it that might just be the ticket for my Grandson. Well I was not going to load for the 243 Win but I guess I will be.

[seaboltm]

There are small ring intermediate length mauser 98 actions. I have a couple. You can tell by looking at the bolt. If it has the 3rd locking lug near the bolt handle, it is a 98. If not, is some other small ring Mauser. It could be a swedish mauser, which is not a 98 action but is generally considered substantially stronger that the 95 mausers. If it truly is a 95 mauser, I would not recommend leaving it as a 243 Winchester. If it is a small ring 98 or a swedish action, it is probably fine.

[Yodogsandman]

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! A REAL gunsmith at one time decided that this action was plenty strong enough for the 243 Winchester conversion! Plenty of custom rifles have been built over the years with all the Mauser actions. Please bring it to a gunsmith you trust to have it checked out if you have any question about it's strength and utility.

[Larry Gibson]

the 7 mauser is held to the lower [45-k] pressure too,,, because of the older mausers.
and if it's 7.62X51 nato [not 308 win] it's a lower pressure round also...

The 45,000 psi figure gets bandied around a lot with these 7x57 Mausers. However if we look at SAAMI standards the MAP is 51,000 psi (transducer/strain gauge) and CIPs PTmax is 56,550 psi (transducer).

I've pressure tested several 7x57 loads, commercial and military using a strain gauge attached to my M95 Chilean Mauser with 22" barrel.

Remington 150 gr CL; 2517 fps at 44,800 psi(M43)

Hornady 139 gr LM; 2624 fps at 44,200 psi(M43)

Remington 175 gr RNSP; 2393 fps at 47,900 psi(M43)

Winchester 175 gr RNSP; 2376 fps at 49,900 psi(M43)

Cavim 1984 Venezuelan 139 FMJBT; 2590 fps at 45,700 psi(M43)

PS 1950 (Spanish) 154 gr FMJBT; 2442 fps at 59,400 psi(M43)

PS 1951 (Spanish) 154 gr FMJBT; 2543 fps at 62,900 psi(M43)

1918 Spanish 172 RNFMJ Cupro; 2295 fps at 54,500 psi(M43)

Hornady 154 SP, 52 gr H4831SC, WW cases, WLR primer; 2579 fps at 55,400 psi(M43)

Hornady 175 gr RNSP, 45 gr 4831, WW cases, WLR primer; 2405 fps at 51,800 psi(M43)

Obviously the older Spanish 7x57 ammunition while still within CIP Standards is a bit hotter than many think. The later Spanish 7x57 ammunition of '50 & '51 is loaded right up there well above even CIPs current standards.

BTW; the FR7, M1916s and FR8s rebarreled to 7.62 NATO were intended to be used with NATP Spec 7.62 ammunition and the 7.62 CETME cartridge. The 7.62 CETME cartridge was made for reliable functioning in the early CETME rifles with non-fluted chambers. It was not made to used in the converted bolt action rifles though it could be used. If you can read Spanish here is the Spanish manual for these rifles.

"Please, Larry, for the sake of all mankind"....BTW; I'm not advocating anything here, just relating some facts.



Larry Gibson

111772111773111774111775111776

[JHeath]

After the donnybrook about low-number '03s, 1916 Mausers, "last-ditch" Arisakas, we have this.

Dutchman, you watching? I say Vulcan Bob is 100% right to withhold this one, because his grandson can't make an informed decision. The design factor of the cartridge/receiver I'm guessing is a little less than 2:1, with inferior gas venting or protection from a flying bolt than many other rifles. Some of us might be okay shooting it, but I wouldn't give it to a novice shooter like I wouldn't give my son a '64 Corvair as his first car.

You want to be a really cool grandfather? Give him a super-inexpensive but stout used rifle, like a bubba Mosin, and an RCBS reloading kit, then spend 200 hours with him at the bench and range. He might sell or trade the rifle and reloading gear, as youngsters will do, but he'll always have those 200 hours. But if by chance he still has that junk Mosin when he's our age, he'll hug it like it was a sold-gold Holland and Holland.

[leadman]

From what I have seen of the small ring 98 I have and others, the bottom of the bolt is not flat. Both of my 93s' are though.
I converted one of them to 7.62X39 and did run into an issue with steel cased ammo. One shot registered about 250 fps faster than the previous shot and locked the bolt up tight. Had to take it home and use a dead-blow hammer to open it. No more steel cased ammo.

I have seen some conversions that I thought were questionable. Like Encore barrels chambered for the UltraMag cases. That did not work out well. Carcanos chambered in 8X57 Mauser?
Maybe a rebarrel to a 257 Roberts?

[Yodogsandman]

Vulcan Bob, By your description of your rifle, it sounds like a skilled craftsman did the conversion to .243 win. At one time the trigger might have been so good, a previous owner switched it out before selling it. It's a common practice to shoot a rebuild with proof loads, special loads made to a higher PSI than would ever be used in the firearm. This is an attempt to make the action fail prior to returning the rifle to the customer, to prove that it's safe to use. That said, I'm not a gunsmith and I don't play one on TV. I would never advocate giving an unsafe rifle to your grandson. If you don't know it's pedigree, have your rifle checked out by someone you trust. Knowing for absolute certain that it's safe to use will also allow you to feel confident, if you decide to keep it and just use it yourself.

[Dutchman]

"Please, Larry, for the sake of all mankind"....BTW; I'm not advocating anything here, just relating some facts.


Cute.

You may not think you're advocating but...

ad·vo·cate
noun
noun: advocate; plural noun: advocates
ˈadvəkit/


1.
a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy.
"he was an untiring advocate of the safety of m/1916 Mausers shooting 7.62 Nato ammunition..."


synonyms:
champion (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+champion&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CB4Q_SowAA), upholder, supporter (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+supporter&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CB8Q_SowAA), backer (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+backer&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCAQ_SowAA), promoter (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+promoter&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCEQ_SowAA), proponent (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+proponent&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCIQ_SowAA), exponent (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+exponent&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCMQ_SowAA), spokesman (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+spokesman&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCQQ_SowAA), spokeswoman (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+spokeswoman&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCUQ_SowAA), spokesperson (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+spokesperson&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCYQ_SowAA), campaigner (https://www.google.com/search?q=define+campaigner&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCcQ_SowAA&biw=1120&bih=546), fighter (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+fighter&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCgQ_SowAA), crusader (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+crusader&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCkQ_SowAA); More propagandist (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+propagandist&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCsQ_SowAA), apostle (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+apostle&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CCwQ_SowAA), apologist (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+apologist&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CC0Q_SowAA), booster (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+booster&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CC4Q_SowAA), flag-bearer;
informal libber (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+libber&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CC8Q_SowAA)
"an advocate of sub-standard rifle's rights"









verb
verb: advocate; 3rd person present: advocates; past tense: advocated; past participle: advocated; gerund or present participle: advocating
-ˌkāt/
1.
publicly recommend or support.
"they advocated an ethical foreign policy"


synonyms:
recommend (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+recommend&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CDEQ_SowAA), prescribe (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+prescribe&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CDIQ_SowAA), advise (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+advise&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CDMQ_SowAA), urge (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1120&bih=546&q=define+urge&sa=X&ei=cF7VU6DgKIW4iwLj04CgDg&ved=0CDQQ_SowAA);



I see what you do as advocating because you do not present the balance imbued within the spirit of Prudence. You are the little black angel who sits on the left shoulder of the innocent saying "do it". You've established a pattern on a couple issues that clearly illustrates this... this opinion.

I'd prefer to see you mix a little caution into the cookie before you hand them out.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

Dutchman, you watching?

Listen up, JHeath... I'm already tired of you invoking my name in this forum. No more.

Dutch

[JHeath]

Aw, I "mix a little caution in the cookie" and thought he'd appreciate that I acknowledged the cookie crumbling his way this time. Oh well.

[Maynard Shooter]

what do you make of this:

Mauser: Small Ring, Big Controversy

By Mike Hudson (snakebite13@sysr.com)
Mark Twain once observed that a lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes and nowhere is that axiom more true than in the world of firearms, especially since the advent of the Internet. A word then, perhaps, about the inherent “weakness” of small ring, non-98 Mauser actions, including the 91, 93, 94, 95 and 96 models manufactured for use by Spain, Argentina, Sweden, Chile, Turkey and many other countries around the world. This non-issue has been written about by illustrious gun scribes and aped by ignoramuses far and wide for decades.
“The steel used by the Spaniards is considered to be soft,” one know-nothing opined on a web page recently, perhaps not realizing that all of the true 1893’s were built by Mauser, Ludwig Lowe or DWM in Germany. The truth is, while the earlier actions are indeed not as strong as the rugged M-98, they are plenty strong enough when used as intended. For years, the Swedish firm of Husqvarna turned out fine sporters based on 96 Mauser actions in .30-06 caliber.
Thousands of beautiful custom sporters in useful calibers like 7x57mm Mauser, 257 Roberts, 8x57mm Mauser, .35 Remington, 9.3x57, 6.5x55 Swedish and the .300 Savage and .250-3000 Savage have been turned out using small ring actions, which have a number of advantages some believe offset the fact that they can’t be chambered for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
In truth, the myth about the weakness of the earlier Mauser actions coincided almost perfectly with the foundation of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI), a private organization established at the behest of the United States government. This was in 1926, more than a generation after Mauser began turning out smokeless powder repeating rifles.
Currently, SAAMI dictates that ammunition sold in America for most of the calibers mentioned above generate no more than 50,000 psi when fired, a mandate that has led to the underloading of popular European calibers like the 7x57 and the 8x57, as well as some American calibers. The .257 Roberts very nearly became extinct because of SAAMI pressure standards set arbitrarily and absurdly low due to the large numbers of small ring Mauser and other surplus actions used as the basis for rifles built for the former wildcat cartridge.
In its original military loading, the 7x57mm cartridge produced an average pressure of 50,370 CUP when fired through the M93 Spanish Mauser rifle, according to J.M. Whittemore’s 1899 treatise, Report Of Test of Mauser Arms And Ammunition Relative To Pressures And Velocities. Whittemore drew from the work five years earlier of the Spanish ballistician Salvadore Cardenal, whose 1895 report for the Spanish government reached the same conclusions.
However, SAAMI has published a Maximum Average Pressure of only 46,000 CUP for this round, which leads to the possibility that commercial rifles built to SAAMI standards may not be designed to withstand the powerful military cartridges intended for the more robust pre-98 Mauser designs.
It’s a well known fact that older military cartridges loaded for sale in Europe are hotter than their American counterparts, but it isn’t generally known why. Certainly, the European governments care as much as the Americans about citizens dying from catastrophic firearms failures.
Instead of SAAMI, the Europeans employ C.I.P., the Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing. A far more independent organization, the C.I.P. was founded in 1914 and does not answer to corporate American or European gunmakers. According to official C.I.P. guidelines, the 7×57mm case can handle up to 390 MPa (56,564 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries, every rifle/cartridge combination has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers.
By contrast, SAAMI specifies a far lower maximum pressure of 46,000 CUP or 51,000 psi. Although this lower specification is due to concern about the allegedly weaker actions of the older Mauser 93 and 95 rifles, this anxiety is misplaced, as the original ammunition developed for, and issued with, the M-93 Spanish Mauser produced an average pressure of 50,370 CUP in those rifles. Since the Spaniards continued building M-93s themselves into the 1950s, continued C.I.P. proof testing would have uncovered any inherent weakness in the action.
Some might argue that the century old steel in original 1891, 1893, 1895 and 1896 Mauser actions is somehow not as strong as it was when first manufactured. In the case of rusted, pitted, dented or otherwise damaged examples, this would indeed be the case. Anyone who thinks fine steel somehow degenerates in ways not apparent to the naked eye over a period of time as brief as 100 years would do well to research Japanese swords turned out on primitive hand forges as early as the 13th and 14th centuries. The pristine blades are as strong as they ever were, in many cases stronger than steel blades turned out today using modern technology.
I suppose I’m thinking about all this today because, on the table in front of me, sits a Spanish M-93 action, turned out by Ludwig Lowe of Berlin in 1896. A quarter of an inch shorter and two ounces lighter than the large ring M-98 action, it remains, I believe, the perfect platform for the 7x57mm cartridge, the round for which it was specifically designed 120 years ago.
I’ve decided to go ahead with the project, a lightweight sporter in the classic configuration, and have just spent the morning happily ordering a new stock and barrel, an adjustable trigger and bolt safety, a set of iron sights, scope bases and rings. I know a gunsmith near here in the Santa Monica Mountains who can put it all together for me and in a few months I’ll be the proud owner of a custom 7x57 capable of taking anything I might find out here in the west, from coyotes to elk, so long as I do my part.
One thing is certain. No matter what ammunition I use, I’ll be a lot more concerned about my own strength and stamina than I will about that of the Mauser action Lowe turned out 60 years before I was born.

[LAGS]

I have found that the '93 actions produced in Lowe, were better and stronger than the actions marked OT that were produced in Spain.
I built a couple of .257 Roberts on both, and they worked fine.
But some of the receivers that were chambered for the .308 did experience Set Back in the receiver in a very short time, even just using the standard Military 7.62x51 ammo.

[Multigunner]

For years, the Swedish firm of Husqvarna turned out fine sporters based on 96 Mauser actions in .30-06 caliber.The iron ore used to make the steel the Swedes used to manufacture the 96 Mausers contained Vanadium as a contaminate. The Vanadium was bonded to Uranium and other metals and most was skimmed off as slag.It was found that steel made from this ore was a good deal stronger than any of the alloys used by the Germans at the time.In later years they figured out how to separate the Vanadium from the slag and reintroduce it in controled amounts creating true Vanadium Steel alloys.The early Swedish Mausers were a bit stronger than the German made 93 and 95 rifles by chance, the later production 96 Mausers were a good deal stronger due to diligent research and development of a superior alloy steel.The metalurgist who developed the alloy even studied ancient Viking swords of known superior strength and found these contained significant percentages of Vanadium.As for CUP measurements, the position of the piston along the case body or case mouth can make quite a difference in the exact reading.