slug load for moose

[roysha]

An acquaintance has asked me to research this for him so here goes. I know very little about BP and ML, actually just enough to know it is not my cup of tea so I have come here for an answer.

This is what he would like to know. He wants to shoot a slug using BP from a double barrel ML 12 gauge. He would like to use the slugs with the wads attached to the bottom if possible, like the Brenneke slug. I told him he ought to just dump in an appropriate charge of BP and shove a patched RB down on it and be done with it but he won't buy that so can someone give him some guidance with this. It doesn't have to be the Brennke slug style, but that is what he is wanting if possible.

[GhostHawk]

Couple of questions first, like why black powder?

If your going to shoot the Brennke style slugs thats fine but why not a modern smokeless load?

If he wants black powder I suspect a patched round ball would be more accurate, and hit harder.
But I've never tried to shoot holy black from a shotgun so maybe someone else can be more helpful.

Slugs yes, and for me the 20 gauge does them best. Personally I love my Remington Wingmaster Pump gun and slugs. It has harvested a lot of deer over the years a couple of which were real trophy bucks. Everything from a round hitting a horn knocking the deer out cold till we walked up and slit his throat, a "down the throat" shot on a nice big doe that left her DRT at my toes. (It hit her hard, head went down and she went tail over head 3 times with her nose touching my boot when she stopped.)

Slugs up close are more than capable of taking a moose if you can put a couple in his breadbasket.

But I sure wonder why the black powder?

[roysha]

Couple of questions first, like why black powder?

But I sure wonder why the black powder?


Simply because he wants to.

[waksupi]

Roysha, your advise is correct. Round ball. I would consider water dropped WW.

[Omnivore]

Some experimentation will be in order in any case. The correct answer, IMO, is whatever load shoots most accurately in the gun. Since it's a double, he may want both barrels loaded, and in that case there is the issue of regulation (both barrels hitting close to the same point at a certain distance). It could end up taking a lot of trial and error to find the right loads. I've heard of people using very different loads in the two barrels to get decent regulation.

Round ball in 12 gauge is well over 500 grains (583 at full bore size) and that is plenty of mass for complete pass-though of a moose at most any angle.

Have him measure both bores and get a ball mold that's between five and ten thousandths smaller, and start experimenting with patched ball. The load will have to be tight enough to prevent dislodging from recoil when an adjacent barrel is fired. Patched ball is a fine hunting load. Many a deer have fallen to round ball from my 50 cal ML rifle, and that twelve bore will be pure poison on moose.

Lee Precision makes slug molds, but they say they're intended for a rifled bore. A lot of the slugs I've fired from a 12 gauge smoothie ended up tumbling and so were not acceptable beyond about 25 yards. They sure made a neat sound though-- PeewsheeewsheeewWhap!

I'd be inclined to contact the folks at Dixie Gun Works and Track of the Wolf, as they regularly deal with smooth bore shooters. Let them know what gun he's using and see if they have any recommendations.

[Omnivore]

You don't say if his double is a cylinder bore.


I would consider water dropped WW.

I don't know why, but pure lead or WW, whatever you have lying around will do fine. There's no particular reason to want a harder alloy, unless you want to bust a femur, and you shouldn't be shooting near the femur.

That's the issue really; if you put it in the right place, a round ball is more than enough for a clean kill. If you don't, a heavier slug isn't going to make up for poor shot placement. Hence accuracy is the primary issue here in load (or alloy) selection.

[RPRNY]

He will very likely, almost certainly, have a gas seal problem trying to shoot a Brenekke type slug from his muzzleloader. Undoubtedly, he wants the improved accuracy of a Brenekke type slug from a smoothbore. But at the distances either would be effective, patched round ball will do a better job easier.

[Geezer in NH]

.530 RB worked for me twice

[Nobade]

NEI does make some pretty good 12 bore designs, and I believe Tom @ Accurate does too. But unless he has a rifled 12 bore double they're not going to be very useful compared to a patched ball. Or even a naked ball for that matter. My single barrel ML with the . 720" bore will shoot a .715" naked ball over 120 gr. FFg to very good effect, and is very fast to reload. Just don't tip it down until it has some fouling built up! (It is better with a .690" ball and cloth patch though.)

-Nobade

[Good Cheer]

He needs to measure the muzzles' bores and take it from there.
Trying to find a slug to fit might give him fits.

To check the bores epoxy the rim of a zinc penny on to a dowel rod. Make sure it is a very strong assembly. Trim and file the penny until it goes in with a tight fit. Use it as a go-no-go gauge down the length of the bores, looking for restrictions. Don't be surprised if the barrels are smaller inside down around there where you would expect to seat a solid projectile. The penny can be measured to find the resulting diameter.

Do you know what kind of distances he's expecting to be taking a moose?

[roysha]

Do you know what kind of distances he's expecting to be taking a moose?

I would suspect, fairly close range. He is hunting on his property and sees moose virtually daily. However, as we all know, that can change over night or even faster.

[Hellgate]

A 69cal PRB is the usual 12 ga RB fare. What he is most likely to find the the barrels don't shoot to the same POA. He may find one barrel that shoots closer to the POA or throws a more accurate group. The second barrel would be the back up. He needs to shoot it at 50 yards and see if he's kidding himself (horrible groups, barrels shooting two different directions, neither barrel shooting to POA). I'll admit, a moose is one helluva big target compared to a deer. I haven't been very impressed with the SXS as an accurate RB shooter especially if it has any choke.

[swathdiver]

Is that a Pedersoli SxS? Does it have screw in chokes and or chromed barrels?

[Good Cheer]

I would suspect, fairly close range. He is hunting on his property and sees moose virtually daily. However, as we all know, that can change over night or even faster.

Now you've got me to wondering about how to make a tang peep work with the front bead on a double twelve.
Been shooting .683" diameter ball in mine just 'cause it's what I've got.

[Good Cheer]

Somebody on here has experience with fabricating slugs for shotguns. A cast slug, a long wood screw stuck in the hind side with fiber wads for fletching... somebody around here has done done it for sure.

[Nobade]

I'd love to see what that looked like as it exited the muzzle!

-Nobade

[roysha]

Is that a Pedersoli SxS? Does it have screw in chokes and or chromed barrels?

I have not seen the gun so cannot answer your questions with any certainty but knowing him and his interests I strongly doubt it is a Pedersoli and for sure no screw-in chokes or chrome barrel. I would be more inclined to believe it is not even a modern replica. Now before someone jumps in and says he should not be shooting this, or something to that affect, just let me say, don't waste the time. I have counciled him MANY times about some of the stuff he does but invariably it is to no avail. He's a big boy so he makes his own decisions. He's made it to his 70s so he must be doing something right. He is out of the state. Neither he nor I have cell phones and I don't know his inlaw's name so I can't readily contact him till he gets home late this week.

This is just a thought that I had and would like to toss out here for comments. I cast both the Lee slug and the Lyman "really BIG air gun pellet" style slug. Since both of these are hollow base would it be feasible to fill the hollow with, perhaps, Carnuba Red, or some such hard lube then patch the slug with a patch saturated with the hard lube so it could act as a bit of a sabot? I'm thinking more in terms of the Lyman slug rather than the Lee, since the skirt would have a tendency to flare out and help seal the bore, maybe.

[fouronesix]

Well, seasoned age or no about the third party, my first question would be: is or will the gun/bullet be accurate enough to do the job right or is this just a quirky idea or stunt? No doubt any shotgun slug or even patched roundball over a decent load, larger than 20 ga, is plenty for moose with good shot placement. Poor accuracy and/or longer than practical range (spur of the moment decision in the field) and the potential for crippling loss escalates exponentially no matter how big the gun or bullet is.

As to the idea of a skirted slug like a big air gun pellet? Yes, that's a good idea and similar to a regular hollow based shotgun slug…. if it's accurate. As to the idea about using lube as a form of sabot? No, that likely won't work but using some form of basic lube is a good idea. If you (he) can find the right size of hollow-based, shotgun slug then paper patch it up to bore diameter that might work if the slug is stable without spin (talking smoothbore here). Of course a patched roundball would also be plenty and pretty straight forward to load. But no matter the projectile type it has to be accurate and, as has been brought up already, getting the two barrels to regulate to each other would be critical I'd think to the effective use of a double.

[roysha]

The necessity for accuracy, is of course, a given. All he is trying to do, actually having me do, is to eliminate a big bunch of shoulder thumping by finding some information that has proven successful for other folks as a starting point.

I believe you may have misunderstood my comment as to the sabot. I was suggesting using a lube saturated cloth patch as the sabot not just lube. The paper patching may be something to consider.

I am going to push a little harder for the patched round ball because I see a big can of worms opening up and I really believe it will be as accurate and effective as any combination of slug and "whatever" he can come up with. If I had any interest in this project then perhaps it would be different but I haven't the least interest. He's a good customer so I humor him from time to time.

[fouronesix]

Actually a lube soaked cloth patch surrounding a slug might work but doubtful it would work better than paper patch. Most slugs are designed to obturate or expand to bore diameter, maintain exact alignment with the bore and to seal gas behind via pressurized contact between slug and bore surface--- like a Minié does in a rifle musket. The better option would be the paper patch around a hollow based, proven stable slug. Since the shotgun is smooth bore (no spin stability for a conical) the ONLY stability for any slug is aerodynamic and it is tricky enough to accomplish even in a rifle musket.

Yes, get back to him about the many plusses of the patched roundball. Then, if it is a simple SxS 12 ga with a single bead front sight, suggest no matter the type of projectile decided upon, to spend some range time at 50 yards to judge exactly how well (or not) it shoots. If I were doing it, I'd put an average-sized paper plate up at 50 yards. If I couldn't hit that every time then I'd either abandon the idea altogether and get a better tool (firearm) or move the target closer until I could. Then that would be the do-not-exceed maximum range I'd hunt (shoot) big game. During that range time, since it's very doubtful the barrels will ever regulate, it would also be a good idea to shoot each barrel and pick the one that is most accurate… then use the SxS as a single shot with that one accurate barrel.

Since you are the go-between here, you can only do so much. Most of the ideas presented throughout this thread seem to be fairly good possibilities but they are only ideas to consider- nothing absolute, including mine.

[longbow]

Been there, done that! Well, not shooting a moose but certainly shooting round balls from a muzzleloading 12 ga.

At the time all I had was a 0.690" round ball mould so used that as it fit through both chokes (I/C & modified in my case). My shotgun was a Pedersoli side by. Accuracy was miserable even at 25 yards. I was shooting the ball over card and fiber wads then an over shot wad. Again, accuracy was MISERABLE with a naked ball.

Seeing as mine was choked patching was out and I was not smart enough to come up with donut wads at the time.

So, first ~ he needs to sort out whether it is cylinder bore or choked. If cylinder bore then I second (third?) patched round ball. If choked then my vote goes to round ball over donut wads.

Second ~ he needs to set up and test for accuracy at whatever range he plans to hunt. Decent loads should group under 6" at 50 yards and more like 3" to 4".

Third ~ he needs to make sure he has a 3 to 4 dram charge working well. That is about 90 to 110 grs. even then velocity will be pretty low and trajectory reflects that. Out to 50 yards should be no problem but beyond that trajectory will be high and groups tend to grow larger quickly.

The Lyman "air gun pellet" will not suit a choked muzzleloader and would have to be loaded into a shotcup or patched in a paper tube to fit a cylinder bore gun. They cast at around 0.685" so very much undersize for a 0.729" nominal bore. Lee slugs are the same issue. Do not expect either to expand to fill the bore.

So, if cylinder bore he should use patched round ball. He will have to slug the bore then buy a suitable ball mould for patching. Donut wads should work fine in cylinder bore too but patched round ball will probably be more accurate.

If choked he should buy or make donut wads and use a round ball that will just fit through the chokes. Lyman makes round ball moulds in 0.662" (1 oz.), 0.678", 0.690" and 0.715" so there is a good selection that will fit through any choke up to extra full. 0.690" is a good all around choice and weigh about 1 1/8 oz. It will fit through most chokes up to full and Lee makes a 0.690" ball mould.

Just had a thought. The Lyman Foster slug loaded over nitro card and hard card wad column just might obturate to fill the bore and mine casts at 0.705" so would fit through up to I/C choke at loading. The slug would have to be cast of pure lead though and likely would not penetrate well as it is thin wall and thin nose. While it might provide reasonable accuracy my vote is still for round ball, it is a better slug overall I think.

If the gun is cylinder bore, and your friend can get Brenneke slugs for reloading, and they fit, then loaded over a couple of nitro card wads they might do okay. A patched round ball is a sure thing though.

That's my take anyway.

FWIW

Longbow

[Hellgate]

I would use a plastic shot cup and a plastic gas seal over powder wad to seal the chamber better. He's not going to be shooting a 25 shot string of trap so the plastic fouling will be minimal. i.e. OP cup+filler/fiber wad (lubed)+shot cup from a plastic wad+over shot wad. The shot cup will center the ball or slug in the bore.
The LEE 12ga slug is a pretty solid one and designed to be used in a plastic shot cup.

[longbow]

If he used separate gas seal as you suggest that might make it through a choke sideways then straighten out when rammed. It would be difficult to get a Lee slug in shotcup past a choke though.

If cylinder bore of nominal 0.729" that should work fine and he might even get a one piece shotcup to work.

I am still inclined to recommend round ball in a shotcup if that fits. 0.662" ball should fit through at least a modified choke in a shotcup and 0.678" ball is a good fit in a shotcup for cylinder bore.

We still don't even know if the gun is choked or cylinder bore.

Longbow

[roysha]

Thank you all for your responses. He is back and we had a discussion about the responses here. The upshot is that he is going to play with the slug load configuration for his own information and satisfaction but ultimately use the patched RB for hunting, at least this time, since time is running out for experimenting.

I was mistaken. It is some off brand of replica and he is going to see which barrel shoots closest to the sights and use it as primary with the other barrel as "backup".

Cylinder bore.

All I can say is if I was in the position to hunt a moose, my firearm choice would be VERY simple. 270 Winchester! Oh well.

[longbow]

Since the gun has cylinder bore his best bet as already established is patched round ball. The problem he may run into is finding the right size ball.

Nominal bore size is 0.729" and he will want a fairly thick patch (I think) so 0.715" ball may work and is a Lyman standard. Next size down is 0.690" which is a large jump. Next size up is 0.735" which is a huge jump. However, if he finds he has a larger or smaller bore then finding the right ball patch combination may be hard.

Jeff Tanner may be the answer there since he will make ball moulds to whatever size you want.

He should slug the bore then determine ball size from there in combination with his preferred patch material.

Personally I think he should do okay with a 12 ga. patched ball over a 3 3/4 to 4 dram load. I sure wouldn't want to be a moose on the receiving end!

Just my thoughts.

Longbow

[Nicholas]

This is certainly an interesting question to stimulate experimentation. However, when I consider the objective, I find it much less exciting. A moose should be taken with confidence using a firearm capable of quickly dispatching such a large creature. The possibility of wounding and losing a moose that for many hunters might be a once in a lifetime hunting opportunity indicates to me that this apparently inexperienced person needs to rethink his hunting plan.