To size or not to size, that is the question

[histed]

I've been loading 9mm using a Lee 356-125-2R mold, pure COWW and tumble lubing with 50/50 JPW/LLA. So far, I've shot the boolits as cast in both my SCCY and Hi Point C9 with good results. So, here's the question/problem. When I seat and crimp the boolits I'm getting a shiny ring on the boolit just above the case. It appears that the seating/crimping die is swaging the boolit slightly (my dies are Lee also). I know a lot of you size everything before shooting, so I'm guessing that sizing to .357 or .358 would eliminate this? OTOH, I'm not getting lead in either pistol and I am getting decent accuracy, so is this "unlubed"(?) area really a problem?

[dh2]

unlubed will give you a leading problem and high pressure.
I am using a Lee TL356-124-TC mould my best results tumble lubed and unsized in my Glock 17.
my .300BLK is also preforming the best using a lee 230gr bullet with it lubed and un sized.

[Yodogsandman]

Roll crimp? Taper crimp?

[WallyM3]

Seat, then crimp (either taper or collet) in two separate operations?

BTW, Winston Churchill is a hero to me.

I don't think we're allowed to post links to videos, but there's a beautiful funeral tribute to him on YouKnowWhatTube.

[Bzcraig]

One way to know for sure is use a micrometer to measure the as cast boolit then load a dummy round, pull the boolit and measure it. But if you are not getting any leading and decent accuracy don't get too anxious about it. I like to run through every suggestion to aide in my learning process and increase my 'casting' knowledge.

[mpmarty]

so is this "unlubed"(?) area really a problem?

Only if it bothers you.

[histed]

111865
One of the members politely PM'd and suggested that a picture might be useful. I 111866hope these show what's happening. Also, I am seating and crimping at the same time. I have cleaned the die and seater plug (Lee dies) but that didn't help. The picture is the first load after cleaning. Thanks again

[Foto Joe]

That's odd, I would order a Factory Crimp Die from Lee and start crimping separately from your boolit seating step. You'll find more than a few on this forum who don't like the Lee FCD but I use them on every caliber that I shoot and have had really good luck.

As far as the sizing is concerned, if the round is chambering in your 9mm's then you don't have a problem there. There have been many threads having to do with leading in 9mm and given the pressures involved undersizing is a real issue with that high pressure caliber. I'd stick to not sizing if it's working for you. Personally I size everything but it's more because that's how I lube than having to do with wanting sized boolits. Before I got a Lube Sizer I never sized anything but I didn't care for the 45-45-10 lube on auto loaders.

[histed]

Maybe the wrong place to ask this, Foto, but what lube do you like for autos? I'm tumbling at the moment and likely will be for the foreseeable future ($$$), but not adverse to trying a pan lube.

[Foto Joe]

My main complaint with 45-45-10 and 1911's was that it tended to goo up the feed ramps, not enough to cause problems but it did leave soot etc. on the ramps and I had the $$$ points at Cabela's for a Lyman 4500. Currently all my 45ACP boolits are lubed with Lyman Alox which I understand is 50% Alox/50% Beeswax and it's messy as well. I have recently switched over to Lyman Super Moly but the only thing I've lubed with it are 30-30 boolits.

Personally if given a choice I'd stay with the tumble lube before I pan lubed.

[DrCaveman]

Sounds like you have no problem

When i decided to start sizing my autoloader boolots, it was because of the inconsistency when seating boolits. Most seated just fine using a particular expander setting, but some would shave lead because the boolits were a little bigger

So id increase the amount of expansion, and then the smaller boolits would seat too easy (not enough neck tension). So i just decided to start sizing, and stick with one expander setting

A person better at casting consistency might avoid my problem

I use lee dies and tumble 45/45/10 too

[kenn]

Are you using your seating die at the factory recommended number of turns from contact with the case holder? I had to open mine up about 5 turns and then turn the seating plug almost all the way in to keep the seating die crimper from engaging too early. You could certainly try that.

[Bullwolf]

Your boolits look a little bit on the long side to me, but that might be an optical illusion from the picture.

I also use the Lee TL356-124-2R boolit in 9mm. That boolit has worked well in my Browning Hi-Power, Ruger P89, Beretta 92, and my Tanfoglio TZ/CZ-75 clone.

I tumble lube them in LLA (Lee Liquid Alox) or 45-45-10, size at .358, use Winchester brass, a CCI 500 small pistol primer, and 5.2 grains of Hercules/Alliant's Unique. I go with a loaded cartridge OAL of 1.10 for that boolit in my 9mm pistols.

I seat my boolits, and them taper crimp in a separate step, or else I tend to have problems.

Doing it at all at once in the same step may work for others, but it never seems to work well for me. When I seat and crimp in the same step I get shaved rings of lead, messed up crimps, and sometimes even buckle cases.

Here's a picture of some Lee TL356-124-2R I've lubed in LLA, with one boolit pulled for reference. I prefer to use 45-45-10, but both lubes have worked for me. The 45-45-10 mix just dries faster, and is much easier to handle.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3825

As long as the bearing surface of your boolits still has lube on them, you should be fine. Heck from what you say they are shooting well, so your doing something right.

I tend to wipe the lube off of my boolit noses using mineral spirits or baby oil and a cloth when I tumble lube for added cleanliness, it's just the OCD in me. Doing so is by no means necessary.

If lube on the noses bothers you, you can do the same. I have skipped doing this before with no problems in 50 to 100 round shooting sessions.


- Bullwolf

[histed]

Bullwolf - I'm seating mine at 1.14, but I'll try a couple at 1.10 or 1.12 and see what happens. That might solve another problem I'm having in my Hi Point. Believe I'll also order a Lee .358 sizing die as soon as I can. Since I'm loading on a single stage press, do I really need a separate crimp die or can I back my seating die out several turns, seat everything, then remove (or loosen) the stem and crimp with the same die?
Kenn - never thought of that, but its worth a shot.
Thanks again, gents

[500MAG]

Maybe the wrong place to ask this, Foto, but what lube do you like for autos? I'm tumbling at the moment and likely will be for the foreseeable future ($$$), but not adverse to trying a pan lube.
If your not getting any leading from your current lube, why would you want to change? Seems to me you are getting good results, accuracy and leading wise. Roll crimp like the others have said. It's not the loss of lube that is a concern, it's the swagging down of the bullet that is, but if your not getting leading and your happy with the accuracy, your good.

[Bullwolf]

Bullwolf - I'm seating mine at 1.14, but I'll try a couple at 1.10 or 1.12 and see what happens. That might solve another problem I'm having in my Hi Point. Believe I'll also order a Lee .358 sizing die as soon as I can. Since I'm loading on a single stage press, do I really need a separate crimp die or can I back my seating die out several turns, seat everything, then remove (or loosen) the stem and crimp with the same die?
Kenn - never thought of that, but its worth a shot.
Thanks again, gents

Sometimes going with a shorter OAL will affect feed reliability, in my experience a longer over all length often feeds better, (if the round will still plunk) but only up to a certain point. Too long can have it's own problems with some magazines and firearms. I have had the best results using an OAL of 1.10 with that boolit in my guns, but none of them are a High-Point.

I often load single stage using a turret press, but I tend to set up all my dies at once in the turret head, and then simply turn the turret head for the each stage.

When using my old RCBS Rock Chucker press, I didn't mind taking the seat/crimp die apart to seat and then crimp in separate stages. While using the turret press though, I like to leave my dies all set up and ready to go in the turret heads. I can spin the turret around to crank out a complete loaded dummy cartridge, or a test powder load when checking on things pretty quick, and still load 50-100 round batches slowly single stage at a relaxed pace.

You can typically seat and crimp in separate steps using the same die. (by just removing the seating stem and re-adjusting for crimp) depending on the make of your dies.

Before I had purchased a spare dedicated taper crimp die just for 9mm, I would to use my 38/357 seat die in the turret head with the appropriately shaped seating stem, along with my 9mm taper crimp die with the seating stem removed. I now have quite a few extra dedicated taper crimp only dies, for calibers that I load often.

I also use a Lee .358 push through sizer die, polished by hand with a split dowel. I can easily push 9mm boolits through the Lee sizing die either lubed, or not lubed. The recommended use is to push them through lubed however.

The only thing I have noticed double lubing them, is the extra time it takes for the boolit lube to dry twice. I use the Lee push through sizing dies in most calibers that I shoot, even though I have a Lyman 45 lubrasizer. I rarely use the lube sizer anymore.

I also tumble lube most of my regular lube groove design boolits for use in handguns with either LLA or 45-45-10.

I ran these TC Lyman 356402 in 9mm through my Lube-sizer, (w/orange-magic) I have also used them just tumbled lubed. They shoot fine for me either way.



- Bullwolf

[histed]

SWEET! Thanks again for the information and the pics. Never thought od using my .357 die to seat, but that should work fine - and it has two different seating stems. One more question and I'll go away (for now;)). What mold are you using for the SWC?

[Bullwolf]

One more question and I'll go away (for now:wink:). What mold are you using for the SWC?

The 9mm boolit pictured is a Lyman 356402. It is really a Truncated Cone, and not a true a semi wad cutter design.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111900&d=1304738207

They Lyman 356402 is a steel mould that's available in a 2 or 4 cavity version.

http://www.midwayitalia.it/WebRoot/MediaDefinition/productimages/880x660/primary/342/342081_m.jpg
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/342081/lyman-4-cavity-bullet-mold-356402-9mm-356-diameter-120-grain-truncated-cone

Lee makes a less expensive aluminum mould version of that boolit, that's very similar.

Though it looks like the same boolit, the Lee 356-120-TC is a slightly different design dimensionally. The Lee boolits nose is somewhat larger and tends to require a deeper seating depth than the Lyman TC boolit does in 9mm. Because of it's ready availability and economical price, the Lee mould is also a popular choice.

The Lee 356-120-TC is available in a dual cavity, or a 6 cavity mould.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/medium/294/294531.jpg
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/294531/lee-6-cavity-bullet-mold-356-120-tc-9mm-luger-38-super-380-acp-356-diameter-120-grain-truncated-cone




- Bullwolf

[Foto Joe]

I've been looking for a 9mm mold for my daughter and the Lee just went on the Midway wishlist.

[Echo]

Since I'm loading on a single stage press, do I really need a separate crimp die or can I back my seating die out several turns, seat everything, then remove (or loosen) the stem and crimp with the same die?

Well, Yes, you can, but there is no need to back it out several turns. You don't mention whether your seat/crimp die is an FC - if so, then several turns would be necessary. If just a standard roll-crimper, 2 turns is more than enough. Back it out 2 turns, set the lock ring, screw the seat stem down until you achieve the OAL you are wanting, seat away, then recover and crimp with the seating stem pulled 'way back, or removed.
And removing the TL from the nose of the boolits can be achieved by see-sawing the batch of loaded cartridges in a towel that has had 2 or 3 tablespoons (or 4...) of mineral spirits splashed on. That's how I do it...
Also - maybe your expander isn't expanding the case enough, causing the little roll of lead at the case mouth. Just a thought...

[WallyM3]

Each "turn of the screw" backs the dies out 0.071" (more than 1/16"), so 3/4 turn probably gets you clear of crimp territory, plus some comfort room.

A second press, right next to the first, speeds things greatly.

There's a seating stem in the die in the near press and none in the crimp die in the second press.

112008

[dondiego]

Each "turn of the screw" backs the dies out 0.071" (more than 1/16"), so 3/4 turn probably gets you clear of crimp territory, plus some comfort room.

A second press, right next to the first, speeds things greatly.


There's a seating stem in the die in the near press and none in the crimp die in the second press.

112008


My loading bench and presses were that clean once!

[WallyM3]

That Chucker goes back to 1973. The CoAx isn't much younger.

[histed]

I already put a turret press on my wish/Christmas list for the kids and my better half. Who knows? The three of them are responsible for my current supply of molds and the furnace. AND my BH has now decided that shooting handguns is fun (an excuse to pick up another one in "her" size) so she now appreciates the effort and my time spent here. At some point I'll try every suggestion and see what works best.

[hanleyfan]

How important is it to have the boolit exactly straight, I molded out a couple hundred 30cal. 220gr. boolits and when I checked them over I found some that had a slight bend to them, If I run these through a sizer will they be good to load or not? The bend is not that noticeable if you are looking for it you would even notice it.

[dondiego]

That Chucker goes back to 1973. The CoAx isn't much younger.

What kind of press is that gold one on the right?

[WallyM3]

What kind of press is that gold one on the right?

That's a Savage "Straight Eight" Model 730, missing its handle.

112086

I don't generally like the handles that come with most (read: any) presses.

112087

[dondiego]

Looks to be well secured to your bench!