Sights for Mosin-Nagants

[Junior1942]

I put a cheap Simmons red dot on the butchered M44 I call my "Rain Rifle." Now, I have discovered that the thing is almost useless in low light conditions. As a matter of fact, I performed a side-by-side low light comparison of most all of my scout scopes and pistol scopes. Just before dark, I turned off my living room lights and aimed through the front door glass and the screen door behind it and out across my front yard to my mailbox, some 75 yards away.

My new Leupold 2.5x28 IER won hands down. I could almost read the letters on the side of the mailbox. With an old 2x20 and an old 3x20 I could tell I was aiming at a mailbox, and that's about all. With the red dot, I couldn't even tell it was a mailbox.

Compared to the others, the Leupold 2.5x28 was like someone had turned on a big light outside, it was that much better at gathering light.

Buying another Leupold 2.5x28 seems the logical choice for my M44 rain rifle. But I'd rather put a modified Firesight on the front and a peep on the rear, mounted on the cocking piece if possible. If I were hunting in a downpour--which I did once this year with the rain rifle--I'd have to cover the ocular lens of a scope, and quickly release the cover if I saw a deer. With a peep sight, I'd just aim and shoot. If ol' Mossy Horns was standing there looking at me, the less I had to think about the better.

I could also just use the Leupold and forget a lens cover. It's 100% waterproof, the brochure says. Opinions, please.

[725]

Can't go wrong with a Leupold low power. Many have fantastic results with red dots and such, but I keep it as simple and reliable as possible. I've gone through a many year phase with the 3x9 vaiables etc, but now find I prefer the fixed 4x's for almost everything. If I could find fixed 3x's, I'd probably go with them. I would not like to add a battery to my sighting systems even though they are, by reputation, the cat's meow.

[Larry Gibson]

I've got 3 scout scopes, Leupold 2X and Burris 1.5 and 3X. I've used them on numerous rifles for quite a few years now and really like them. They are not the "all in one scope" that was claimed for them but they certainly are a functional hunting scope. Especially for those of us that are visually challenged in later years. However for a close in, lousy weather rifle such as your "rain rifle" the rear aperture and Firesight fron may be a really good combo also. Marble's makes fiber optic front sights from .312 to .570" in height so I'm sure one of the right height could be fitted to the front sight base. The top of the cocking piece could be easily D&T'd for a Williams WGRS Guide reciever sight. That would pretty much fix your rifle up the way you want it.

Larry Gibson

[Blammer]

ya need a spotlight mounted on that gun! :)

[Junior1942]

The top of the cocking piece could be easily D&T'd for a Williams WGRS Guide reciever sight. That would pretty much fix your rifle up the way you want it.

Larry GibsonThe WGRS rear would be perfect but for two problems: (1) getting one to fit the radius of the cocking piece, and (2) the rearward slope of the cocking piece. Ideas?

[LET-CA]

Take a look at this.

http://www.mojosights.com/mosin_nagant.html

I have no experience with it, but ran across it the other day while surfing the web.

All the best.

[Larry Gibson]

The WGRS rear would be perfect but for two problems: (1) getting one to fit the radius of the cocking piece, and (2) the rearward slope of the cocking piece. Ideas?

Several different WGRS bases are made with some for rounded recievers. Should be able to find one close and either file to fit or fill in with any of the "steel filler" material compounds. I'd mount it more up on top of the cocking piece where it is level. One can always use a flat bottomed sight and just file the area on the cocking piece flat. It's not like the "rain rifle" is a collectors piece. I'd just modify it to make it work to my specifications.

Larry Gibson

[Junior1942]

Several different WGRS bases are made with some for rounded recievers. Should be able to find one close and either file to fit or fill in with any of the "steel filler" material compounds. I'd mount it more up on top of the cocking piece where it is level. One can always use a flat bottomed sight and just file the area on the cocking piece flat. It's not like the "rain rifle" is a collectors piece. I'd just modify it to make it work to my specifications.

Larry GibsonHummmmm. . . .

[Larry Gibson]

Is that a good "Hmmmmm" or a bad one, or have I got you thinking?

Larry Gibson

[Junior1942]

You got me thinking out of the box. When I first butchered the M44 I thought about making a rear sight out of an 8x40x1" screw. I'd use the slot in the screw head as a sight. But I decided, correctly, I believe, that it would be hard to see in low light deep woods. Then I thought about using the post from an SX Sight Systems sight. I even talked to Buckshot about drilling & tapping the cocking piece 7/32"x64 for the post. I could use the post as a ghost ring or screw in an aperture.

I'm back to thinking the SX post might be the best idea. But it needs another 1/2" of threads, I think. Thinking, thinking, thinkin. . . .

[Larry Gibson]

That might work out ok, the WGRS would give more latitude of adjustment though. Might not be needed with a close in rifle using one load though.

Larry Gibson

[Pepe Ray]

JR'
You've been around for awhile, certainly long enough to have a junk box of old "gunny" parts. Like a fore end sling eye with a thru (machine screw) bolt. Keep in mind that whatever you choose is going to get a lot of stress every time you "drop the hammer".
If you like the idea (think about it) I'll wager I can find one in My junk.
Pepe Ray :roll:

[Junior1942]

Pepe, I'm a thinkin', I'm a thinkin'. . . . Larry, it'll be a one load, 75 yard max deal. Right now, it's the 220 gr Hornady .308" RN @ 1960 fps.

[siamese4570]

Junior, First of all, I enjoy reading your stuff on your website....write more! I put a scout scope set up on my m44 and it works great. Nothing is perfect. I had a firesight/peep sight combination cost me a big deer a couple years back. It was early morning, overcast, and shooting thru the timber. It was light enough to see the deer, but not light enough to see the firesight against the deer. This is one of those 1% situations and I have not given up completely on firesights, but the scope would have worked better in that situation. The MoJo may also be a potential solution, sort of a hybrid peep sight. I'll throw in one more piece of info for you to chew on. The front sight post on the mosin's is pressed in. I discovered this trying to get a taller post in my 91/30. If you tap the sight out of the dove tail and clamp it into a vice, you can put a punch thru the top of the sight protector and knock it out. I know that there are firesights on a threaded post (I think for the sks) that you might be able to adapt. Shouldn't be a big problem for a dedicated tinkerer like yourself! Good luck

Siamese4570

[Ben]

Might be more $$$ than you want to pay, but a good machinist should be able to make one of these , it could be threaded for a Lyman aperture , by the way- - - wouldn't it be nice if you could order it right now for $4.00 ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/m91peeppic.jpg

[Junior1942]

Might be more $$$ than you want to pay, but a good machinist should be able to make one of these , it could be threaded for a Lyman aperture , by the way- - - wouldn't it be nice if you could order it right now for $4.00 ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/m91peeppic.jpgBen, Google gave one article with that sight: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/cruffler/Pages/moisin.htm

It mounts via a collar and was made by Pacific Gun Sight Company circa 1929. Reckon they'd take a check? Ha! Seriously, they'd sell today if someone still made them. However, not for $4.

[Junior1942]

Junior, First of all, I enjoy reading your stuff on your website....write more! I put a scout scope set up on my m44 and it works great. Nothing is perfect. I had a firesight/peep sight combination cost me a big deer a couple years back. It was early morning, overcast, and shooting thru the timber. It was light enough to see the deer, but not light enough to see the firesight against the deer. This is one of those 1% situations and I have not given up completely on firesights, but the scope would have worked better in that situation. The MoJo may also be a potential solution, sort of a hybrid peep sight. I'll throw in one more piece of info for you to chew on. The front sight post on the mosin's is pressed in. I discovered this trying to get a taller post in my 91/30. If you tap the sight out of the dove tail and clamp it into a vice, you can put a punch thru the top of the sight protector and knock it out. I know that there are firesights on a threaded post (I think for the sks) that you might be able to adapt. Shouldn't be a big problem for a dedicated tinkerer like yourself! Good luck

Siamese4570Just realized I didn't answer your post. All this "Rain Rifle" stuff will eventually be an article. I know about the removeable posts. A kind member of this very forum sent me a Mosin-Nagant front sight with an elevation-adjustable post held by a screw.

[Ben]

Junior1942

Looks to me like a rec. sight like this with as many Russian rifle as there are out there would sell. If that sight could be built in 1929 , it could be built again today. Question is....will anyone tackle it ?

Ben

[reboundspring]

Gents,
As a MN butcher, and gunplumber of long standing, it seems possible to
make a cocking piece sight mount for the MN.
The only downside, if any is the fact that the cocking piece moves from side
to side a bit in the rear receiver slot. Your windage may vary.
Do we care?
The sight and base add weight to the cocking piece, and further slow the
speed of the striker, which is already pretty sedate on the MN.
Again, do we care?
In my previous life I was an aerospace tool maker and mechanical engineer
(depending on what work was available). Now as a successful gunsmith, I live
in back of a 7-11, in a busted Airstream Solo, because of the huge profits in
custom gun work.

Because I am sick of Remington 700 Tactical rifles, I have turned my attention
to developing (redeveloping ?) the MN.

The areas that need work as I see it are:
Better metallic sights,
Shorter lock time, and or shorter striker fall
bolt handle location
Lighter ignition components (cocking piece, firing pin)
Better trigger, a la` Timney. I'm working on this one, seriously.

Positive aspects of the rifle that make it worthwhile:
Some are really excellent shooters, despite their shortcomings,
Strong receiver, with long thread engagement for the barrrel.
Ease of rebarreling
Massive locking lugs
Floating bolt head.
Good extractor
Powerful cartridge, that shows good inherent accuracy

Just plain weird aspects of the MN
Ejector/ magazine interruptor
Bolt locks horizontally.
Stock that accentuates recoil

Am i nuts? I think the potential of the rifle has yet to be developed,
in the way the Mausers have been.

I have two re-arsenaled m44s apart as we speak. I plan to true the actions
to close tolerance, install new match barrels and lighten the lock system.
Anybody interested in how it's done?
I've already built an action wrench, receiver mandrel and truing collar, and
bolt head machining fixture.
I plan to re barrrel with Remington 700 PSS take-off barrels.

I believe that 1/2 MOA is possible with the MN platform.

Reboundspring

PS if you want to look at what I do for a living go to http://TacticalOperations.com
I built ALL the rifles there and all production.
R

[Junior1942]

Rebound, I can speak for a bunch of guys on this forum when I say, We're glad you're here!

Here's my thoughts on the MN: the best thing about it, other than its price and its quality, is the ease of takedown. When my Rain Rifle got a good soaking, it took only--what?--two minutes maybe, and it was totally dismantled and drying.

The worst thing about it is the awful safety. I made a juryrigged triggerblock safety out of a short section of airhose jammed behind the trigger. With the airhose safety in place, I can squeeze the trigger with all of my might, and the rifle won't fire.

Re cocking piece peep sight: Pepe Ray's suggestion of using an Uncle Mike's machine screw sling stud is a good one! No windage adjustment, but no problem with a one load rifle. The peep hole/aperture is a perfect size, too.

For a front sight, I'm looking at sweating on a Williams Shorty ramp, and putting a Marbles all-steel fiber optic in the 3/8" slot.

[Pepe Ray]

Mornin' Jr.
I guess I jumped to an "assumption" that you had a ramp on it already. Didn't you shorten the bbl?
The Williams ramps are the WTG ,usually. Gives you some windage latitude also.
Altho I don't own one, a couple of shooting pals have them and have installed the Peep on the cocking piece. It's true that there is wobble but only when "you" wobble it. Leave it alone and it re seats itself just fine.
Some day we've gotta chat about your SRC sling.
Pepe Ray

[Ben]

I like the idea of using a Uncle Mike's machine screw sling swivel stud! If the cocking piece were drilled and tapped for the threaded Swivel screw stud, you'd have elevation correction with this system ( some - not a lot ) by varying the depth of entrance of the stud down into the hole that you D/T'd in your cocking piece. The front sight sliding R - L in the Williams Shorty Ramp will provide windage.

For a " One Load " rifle, that is all you'd need. If I were making constant sight changes, this system wouldn't work very well....but for a " One Load " rifle. Yep, it would work fine.

I once read of a fellow who owned a 93 Spanish Mauser in 7 X 57 mm. The rifle had a nice bore , he shortened the barrel to about 22 ", put on a front sight ramp and small bead. Next he bent into a 90 degree angle & fabricated a hvy. gauge piece of metal for a rear peep sight, then drilled out an aperture hole. One large screw held
his homemade rec. sight " in place on the center of the rear receiver ring. Most gunsmiths would " Cringe " at the thoughts of something like this.....however, with a little trial and error work with sight alignment , it shot wonderfully. He also used only one load, so once the rifle was zeroed , no other changes were ever made to the sights. He killed MANY heads of game with that rifle.

Ben

[Junior1942]

Mornin' Jr.
I guess I jumped to an "assumption" that you had a ramp on it already. Didn't you shorten the bbl?
The Williams ramps are the WTG ,usually. Gives you some windage latitude also.
Altho I don't own one, a couple of shooting pals have them and have installed the Peep on the cocking piece. It's true that there is wobble but only when "you" wobble it. Leave it alone and it re seats itself just fine.
Some day we've gotta chat about your SRC sling.
Pepe RayNope, I didn't shorten the barrel. All I did was knock off the sleeve holding the front sight and bayonet on the barrel. It gave me a stepped barrel with a ~.675" OD end about 2" long.

Here's a picture of the rifle as it looks at this minute. You can see the stepped barrel if you look closely.

http://www.castbullet.com/misc/photos/mn19t.jpg

[Three44s]

Quote from Reboundspring:

"........................................ The only downside, if any is the fact that the cocking piece moves from side
to side a bit in the rear receiver slot. Your windage may vary. ....................

.......................... "

I find my cocking pieces also move up and down during trigger take up.

An appeture mounted on the cocking piece would certainly be a simpler solution.

I like the MOJO sight ..... but I am greedy ........ I want all the sight radius ...... "the law will allow".

So I searced on ...................

Enter many spare parts for battle rifles ........ one rear sight that I have always admired is the rotary drum for the HK91. I bought two of them complete.

And here is my current thinking:

I am considering mounting a homemade mount not unlike the side mount scope bases of yesteryear that places the HK rotary drum sight over the top of the bolt ........ change the bolt to bent configuration. Change front sight height ....... my preference would be to adapt to a globe front sight.

Just a glimpse into my crazy existence.

Regards

Three 44s

[Junior1942]

I removed the red dot shown in the photo above, and I temporaily installed an old 3x pistol scope in order to check the accuracy potential of the 220 gr Hornady RN .308" @ 1960 fps with surplus 4895. At 50 yards, it put two shots in 3/4" and then the scope came loose. I got a winner in my Rain Rifle, I believe. I'll start soon on the peep sight project.

I'd simply tap the cocking piece 10-32 and use just the sling stud with windage adjustment via sliding the front sight, but I'd have to drill the pilot hole exactly perpendicular to the cocking piece. If not, when zeroed, the front sight might hang way off the edge of the ramp dovetail. But that would sure simplify the job!

[Pepe Ray]

Hi JR>
One more thot?
After securing the beast upright, I'd check the difference in position of the CP,
between cocked and fired. It would seem to me that if there is any, the drilling position should be in the cocked position. That's the one you'll be using.
I imagine you already saw that but wanted to be sure before you D/T'd.
Pepe Ray

[Junior1942]

Pepe Ray, et. al., I've decided to just go with the swivel stud on the cocking piece. If I drill and tap the 10-32 hole out of kilter, I'll just drill and tap another one. There's plenty of room on the cocking piece for extra holes. Watch this spot for photos! I think I'll start tomorrow morning.

[Mk42gunner]

Junior,

Since you have already decided on using a cocking piece sight made from a swivel stud; here are a few ideas for you.

1. To help insure that the cocking piece returns to the same spot every time; is there enough room to mill a female vee into the sear and a matching vee on the cocking piece? I saw this used on Mauser's in (I think),Roy Dunlap's book "Gunsmithing." I would look on my M44 but it is still full of grease under the wood.

2. I am thinking of using a B-Square Scout mount for a Remington 700; it is 6 3/4" long and is supposed to use the front mount holes and the rear sight holes. I think it could be made to work with a little bit of filing on th front end of the mount to match the rear sight base. Of course the receiver ring would have to be drilled and tapped for the base.

Food for thoght,

Robert

[Junior1942]

Robert, the cocking piece returns to the same spot or very close to it every time. I can push it to either side and get movement, yes, but the movement is always the same each time it's cocked. That's using eyeball measurement, however. But a little movement won't matter on a short range rifle. About .005" movement is only about 1" at 100 yards. All I care about is putting all rounds in a paper plate at 75 yards.

[nicholst55]

Gents,
As a MN butcher, and gunplumber of long standing, it seems possible to
make a cocking piece sight mount for the MN.
The only downside, if any is the fact that the cocking piece moves from side
to side a bit in the rear receiver slot. Your windage may vary.
Do we care?
The sight and base add weight to the cocking piece, and further slow the
speed of the striker, which is already pretty sedate on the MN.
Again, do we care?
In my previous life I was an aerospace tool maker and mechanical engineer
(depending on what work was available). Now as a successful gunsmith, I live
in back of a 7-11, in a busted Airstream Solo, because of the huge profits in
custom gun work.

Because I am sick of Remington 700 Tactical rifles, I have turned my attention
to developing (redeveloping ?) the MN.

The areas that need work as I see it are:
Better metallic sights,
Shorter lock time, and or shorter striker fall
bolt handle location
Lighter ignition components (cocking piece, firing pin)
Better trigger, a la` Timney. I'm working on this one, seriously.

Positive aspects of the rifle that make it worthwhile:
Some are really excellent shooters, despite their shortcomings,
Strong receiver, with long thread engagement for the barrrel.
Ease of rebarreling
Massive locking lugs
Floating bolt head.
Good extractor
Powerful cartridge, that shows good inherent accuracy

Just plain weird aspects of the MN
Ejector/ magazine interruptor
Bolt locks horizontally.
Stock that accentuates recoil

Am i nuts? I think the potential of the rifle has yet to be developed,
in the way the Mausers have been.

I have two re-arsenaled m44s apart as we speak. I plan to true the actions
to close tolerance, install new match barrels and lighten the lock system.
Anybody interested in how it's done?
I've already built an action wrench, receiver mandrel and truing collar, and
bolt head machining fixture.
I plan to re barrrel with Remington 700 PSS take-off barrels.

I believe that 1/2 MOA is possible with the MN platform.

Reboundspring

PS if you want to look at what I do for a living go to http://TacticalOperations.com
I built ALL the rifles there and all production.
R


I think there is definitely a market for improvements to the Mosin. What I'm not sure about is how much people are going to be willing to pay for these improvements. One big reason the Mosin is so popular is due to its relatively low price; what other factory/arsenal refurbed rifle can you buy for $150 retail?

The concept of being able to rebarrel a Mosin with a good quality .308" barrel is very attractive, though. I know of at least one gunsmith that has done this already.

I see an improved trigger and improved sights as the two biggest potential markets. Even with 'tuning,' a Mosin trigger leaves a lot to be desired.

[NuJudge]

Re cocking piece peep sight: Pepe Ray's suggestion of using an Uncle Mike's machine screw sling stud is a good one! No windage adjustment, but no problem with a one load rifle. The peep hole/aperture is a perfect size, too.

I once saw a Mannlicher-Schoenaur where a simple L shaped piece of steel was screwed to the bolt shroud, resting between the split rear receiver ring. A hole was drilled in the vertical portion of the L, giving the aperture. I would immaging egging of the hole would give slight windage adjustment.

I believe the same would work on a Moisin-Nagant, perhaps the holes being drilled in the safety projection.

[Junior1942]

Take a gander, boys. The cocking piece was easy to drill and tap 10-32. Here we see a $1 rear peep adjustable for elevation -- 1/2 turn = .015" movement; 1 turn = .030" movement. The final position/elevation will be a tad shorter/lower than shown here. I'll also chuck the swivel stud in my drill press and round off that flat area on the bottom with a file. I was able to align the aperture to my eye with my cheek on the stock in a quick-fire position. The old military sights were too low, and I had to scrunch my head down to align them. Now, I throw the rifle to my shoulder and eye and aperture and front test-sight are right on. A front 9/16" Streamlined ramp and a .343"N Fire Sight are on their way from Brownells. Final position of the sights will be ~ 1 1/8" above the bore centerline.

http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/photos/rr01.jpg

[LET-CA]

[QUOTE=Junior1942;284531]Take a gander, boys. The cocking piece was easy to drill and tap 10-32. Here we see a $1 rear peep adjustable for elevation -- 1/2 turn = .015" movement; 1 turn = .030" movement. The final position/elevation will be a tad shorter/lower than shown here. I'll also chuck the swivel stud in my drill press and round off that flat area on the bottom. I was able to align the aperture with my eye with my cheek on the stock in a quick-fire position. The old military sights were too low, and I had to scrunch my head down to align them. Now, I throw the rifle to my shoulder and eye and aperture and front test-sight are right on. A front 9/16" Streamlined ramp and a .343"N Fire Sight are on their way from Brownells. Final position of the sights will be ~ 1 1/8" above the bore centerline.

Wonderfully elegant solution!

[Junior1942]

Here's an eyeball view of the same setup as above.

http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/photos/rr02.jpg

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I love it, wonderful solution. Can't wait to hear a range report. I'm heading off to my mosin parts bin to see if I have extra cocking pieces.

Regards,

Dave

[Maineboy]

Junior, I'm just wondering...Can you tap the swivel hole to take a lyman screw in aperture?

[Junior1942]

Junior, I'm just wondering...Can you tap the swivel hole to take a lyman screw in aperture?
I don't see why not. I'd buy the proper tap and drill and do it, but this ~.150" aperture is perfect for me in the deer thickets. I won't be doing much target shooting so I don't need a smaller aperture.

[LET-CA]

Here's an eyeball view of the same setup as above.

http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/photos/rr02.jpg

You could put a "locking nut" on the shaft of the screw to allow you to tighten it in place once you've got the correct elevation. Might make it a bit more stable and less likely to rotate under recoil.

[Junior1942]

PS: If a fellow wanted a smaller aperture, just buy another $1 swivel stud and drill a smaller hole from the side. By the way, I'll soon be selling these 7/8" & 1/4" studs on my web site. I've got them in stock, but I haven't put them on the web page yet--too busy working on the rifle. If anybody wants one just send $2 to cover the stud cost and postage.

[Junior1942]

You could put a "locking nut" on the shaft of the screw to allow you to tighten it in place once you've got the correct elevation. Might make it a bit more stable and less likely to rotate under recoil.I thought about that in case Loctite doesn't hold. If the stud is a tad loose I'll booger the threads so as to make it a tight fit.

[Junior1942]

Thinkin': Looks to me like a fellow could install an Uncle Mike's barrel band swivel stud upside down out on the end of a Mosin-Nagant barrel. Then he could drill & tap a 3-56 or 6-48 hole in the tip of the stud and screw in a shotgun front sight. Problem is, I want a fiber optic. Shotgun fiber optics are 1/8" in diameter vs 3/32" diameter for a rifle fiber optic. Plus they have a wing on each side which would tend to hide ol' Mossyhorns. Thoughts. . . . .

[35 Whelen]

I've of late been also been pondering ways to improve the Mosin. I have a couple of 91/30's with REALLY nice bores that shoot cast bullets well, and I may see what I can do on the latest. But, I thought I'd start with a $69.95 special M-44 from J&G Sales. Here are some of my thoughts for the M-44:

1. Remove the front sight/bayonet assembly and replace it with something of the Patridge variety. I've been doing some measuring and I believe the front sight assembly off of an Ishapore 2A or possible an Enfield No.4 Mk.1 would be very close. A sight such as this would allow easy change of sight blades as well as windage adjustments. Even a Finnish M39 sight could probably be made to work and of course their windage is easily adjusted with a screwdriver.

2. Add a receiver mounted peep or aperture sight. I think a base that would accept the flat sided type Williams ot Lyman sights (such as those for slab sided lever action rifles) could be made to work if a man fashioned a base on which to bolt it. I own a Russian micrometer peep sight that is mounted on a base that appears to have been very nicely made from a section of a pipe nipple cut longways from the nipple. The radius of the base at the front roughly fits the round side of a Mosin reciever and the rear of the base had been peened flat, thus accepting the flat sided type sights. It works somewhat like the Redfield target bases in that the mounting holes are forward of the sight.

3. Install a low...VERY low bolt handle. This would be accomplished by first draw filing the top of the reciever behind where the bolt handle locks. It wouldn't take much metal removal. I figure 1/4"-5/16" off the highest point. Just enough so that this portion of the reciever was no higher than the round portion of the bolt body. Then a really low bolt handle could be welded to the ridge or shoulder of the bolt in such a way that it protruded no higher than the ridge or shoulder from which the original handle protrudes. Except of course it'd be at a 90º from this ridge/shoulder. With such a setup, the bolt handle should slide under the reciever sight.

I envision this rifle as a knock-about rifle used primarily for small game with a light cast bullet, but that could also be used on game such as deer, if needed, out to 100 yds. or so with a heavier load.

Thoughts?
35W

[Junior1942]

I think your "VERY low bolt handle" idea would be tricky to do. Other than having windage adjustment, would it really be any better than my easy swivel stud idea?

But I like the idea of a windage adjustable front sight. Is there one out there which would fit in a 3/8" dovetail?

[35 Whelen]

I think your "VERY low bolt handle" idea would be tricky to do. Other than having windage adjustment, would it really be any better than my easy swivel stud idea?

But I like the idea of a windage adjustable front sight. Is there one out there which would fit in a 3/8" dovetail?

I don't think it'd be too tricky. The worst part would be draw filing the top of the receiver, and only because I think it'll be time consuming. The rest would be no more difficult than welding a bolt handle on a Mauser which I've done a few times. In fact given that ridge on the Mosin bolt handle, it'd probably be quite a bit easier to weld to. Check out the modification to this bolt on a Finn M28:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Finnbolt-1.jpg

I like the swivel stud idea except for the limited range of elevation adjustment. If a fella were only using, say cast loads, or typical jacketed loads, it wouldn't be a big deal; just match your front sight height to the load. But I shoot lots of both, and I know from experience that when the sights are regulated (I modify all my Mosin front sights to be elevation adjustable) so that the typical jacketed load shoots point of aim at 100 yds., most of my cast loads require use of the 600-650 yd. setting of the rear sight. I like the convenience of being able to quickly make sight adjustments. I mounted a Lyman receiver sight to one of my K-31's and the luxury of the micrometer rear sight is awesome.

Regarding the front sight.... The M44 barrel, according to the Mosin website, is .568" at the muzzle. This is quite a bit smaller than most front sight barrel bands I've checked, but I've yet to check a Springfield 03 and other American militart rifles which should have the 3/8" dovetail. Also, when I get to work, I'm going to chekc my Gun Parts Corp. catalog as they have misc. sights like this.

Regards,
35W

[Junior1942]

My M44 barrel at the muzzle measures .570" including a layer of paint. Uncle Mike's # 10522 barrel band for .585"-.635" would work with a little file action.

[Junior1942]

The snailmail lady just brought my Brownells order. The Williams Streamlined ramp fits the .570" barrel end of my M44 like a charm. Now, to work to work. . . .

[Junior1942]

Guys, here's an update showing how well the contour of the Williams Streamlined ramp fits the contour of the M44 barrel. I had to hacksaw off the rear 3/4" of the ramp so it would butt up against the step in the barrel. The soldering starts in the morning. This is my first ramp soldering job. I'm using Brownells Hi-Force 44 solder.

http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/photos/rr03.jpg

[35 Whelen]

Guys, here's an update showing how well the contour of the Williams Streamlined ramp fits the contour of the M44 barrel. I had to hacksaw off the rear 3/4" of the ramp so it would butt up against the step in the barrel. The soldering starts in the morning. This is my first ramp soldering job. I'm using Brownells Hi-Force 44 solder.

http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/photos/rr03.jpg

Please keep us posted. I'm very interested in the soldering job. I've never done one either, but if it's no big deal, I'll tackle it.
35W

[Junior1942]

I'm finished except for touch up paint. I'll post a couple of more pictures later this afternoon. The solder job came out fine. I didn't get a spread out "tinned' thin layer all over the barrel or the ramp, but it's attached just fine. I did quite a lot of beating on the ramp trying to get the Fire Sight in place, and the ramp didn't budge. If it ever does come off, I'll re-solder, and I'll drill and tap for the attachment screw which came with the ramp. I can drill & tap all the way through the barrel as the hole will come through well inside the counterbore. I'll just keep shortening the screw 'til it doesn't poke through. The rifle is even zeroed. It's about 1" high @ 50 yards inside a 5 1/2" bull.

1st shot was 2" left & 14" low @ 50. I'd whacked off the swivel stud screw too short. Made a longer one and shot again. 2nd shot was 2 1/2" left and ~1" high and in the 9 ring. Hammered right on the Fire sight. 3rd shot was 1" right and ~1" high in the 10 ring. I hammered a tad left on the Fire Sight and split the difference. There'll she'll stay until just before next deer season!

[Junior1942]

No flat black spray paint. I'll have to return to this project next week. Sorry.

[Mk42gunner]

Junior and 35 Whelen,

I have an idea for using the swivel stud and having more vertical adjustment. What about soldering a 10-32 coupler nut onto the cocking piece? I seem to remember they are about 1/2" long, that would give a lot more range than just the threads thru the cocking piece.


Robert

[35 Whelen]

Went to the Ft. Worth gun show today and picked up an M-1 carbine front band/sight. It fits almost perfectly over the muzzle of an M44. Junior, would you mind a crash course on the soldering? Also, how's the rifle shooting?
35W

[Junior1942]

Mk44, with 3/8" to 1/2" vertical adjustment as the stud/peep is now, I will never need more. 3/8" = 25" of POI change @ 50 yards with a 26" sight radius.

35W, I'll post in the morning and go into detail about what I did. As far as how it's shooting, the big ol' Fire Sight hid the 5 1/2" bull @ 50 yards, but if a rifle will go from 14" low and 2" to the left to zero in three shots. . . . well . . . it's shooting fine.

[Junior1942]

Details:

I used a Wal-Mart/Ace Hardware propane torch.

I used Brownells Hi-Force 44 solder # 080-649-250 .

I used Brownells Comet Flux # 478-100-004 .

I took the barrel down to bare metal with a belt sander. On the bottom of the ramp, I tried files and tried stones in a Dremel tool. Nothing worked well until I tried a plain ol' sanding wheel in the Dremel tool. It perfectly fit the concave base of the ramp, and it took it down to bare metal in a flash.

I then dripped Comet Flux on a q-tip and applied it to the barrel and the bottom of the ramp.

I clamped the ramp upsidedown in a pair of vice grip pliers. As the Brownells solder instructions said, I heated the ramp until it, not the torch flame, melted the solder. Some of the surface "tinned." However, mostly the solder formed beads.

I installed the bolt into the UNLOADED barreled action and left the bolt cocked. Then I clamped the barrel, about mid-barrel, in my bench vise. I positioned the barrel/vise so that (1) I had room to work on the end of the barrel; and (2) I could scoot my chair backward several feet and could eyeball down the UNLOADED barrel and see the alignment between the top of the ramp, the barrel, and the rear sight stud/peep at the other end of the barreled action.

I spent time thinking about how to get good alignment between the front sight, the barrel, and the rear peep. By trial and error, I decided eyeball alignment was the best method for me. If the rifle zeroed with the Fire Sight halfway out of the ramp groove to one side or the other, I'd just heat the barrel/ramp area, melt the solder, then turn the ramp in the direction needed.

So, plan in hand, I eyeball-aligned the rear stud/peep into a verticle position. Then I tinned/beaded solder onto the top of the barrel.

Next, I placed the tinned/beaded ramp onto the barrel. Then I started heating them both, moving the torch flame from one side, underneath, to the other side, back again, etc., etc.

The beads melted ok, but when the eyeball alignment instrument showed the ramp turned in one direction or the other, i.e, out of alignment with the barrel and the peep, I had trouble getting it straight. In trying to move it ever so slightly, I knocked it off the barrel several times. In frustration, I wished for the clamp the Brownells instructions said I should use.

So I turned off the propane torch and found a piece of wire to use as a clamp. While wrapping the wire around the ramp/barrel, I noticed that the solder had solidified and the ramp was firmly attached to the barrel. After scooting back my chair to position the ol' eyeball measuring device, danged if it didn't show the top of the ramp, the barrel, and the rear stud/peep in what looked like perfect alignment.

When the rifle zeroed, the Fire Sight stuck out to the left of the ramp exactly .030". That's where she'll stay!

All that's left of the project is some flat black paint and some pictures. This will soon be an in-depth article on my web site.

One important point: the Rain Rifle/Hell or High Water Rifle is now the only rifle I own where the sights or scope alignments were positioned to the pupil position of MY right eye, not the pupil position of the AVERAGE right eye. Speaking from experience in an archaeology lab, I can tell you that human skulls come in many shapes and sizes. When I quickly bring this rifle to my shoulder and drop my cheek on the stock, my right eye is looking through the peep aperture and the front sight is centered in that aperture.

That perfect alignment of MY right eye to rear aperture to front bead came with the sight heights between 1 1/16" and 1 1/8" above the centerline of the rifle bore. For YOUR right eye, you could probably add or subtract as much as 1/2" to or from that distance.

[Junior1942]

It's finished. It couldn't have turned out better. It's hard to tell from the photo but the Fire Sight is sticking out only .030" from the ramp on this side. That's pretty good eyeball alignment if you ask me! Notice how well the whacked-off rear end of the Streamlined ramp matches the step in the barrel. With the addition of a Fire Sight hood, the Rain Rifle / Hell or High Water Rifle is ready to hit the deer thickets.

http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/photos/rr04.jpg

[35 Whelen]

Very nice Junior...very nice!!
35W

[Junior1942]

35W, I forgot a step. The Comet Flux is highly corrosive according to the bottle. It says to use warm water as a rinse. I decided I ought to remove the acid from the sight/barrel junction or someday rust might start oozing out. Before I installed the Fire Sight, I stuck the muzzle down in a coffee can filled with hot tap water. I let it soak for 30 minutes. When I dumped the water, it was a light brown color like very weak tea.

I dried the muzzle and the ramp and ran a couple of dry patches through the bore. Then to remove ALL the water, I held the muzzle and ramp over a burner on my gas kitchen stove. I moved it back and forth over the flame until it was too hot to touch comfortably. Then I let it cool naturally in a muzzle up, chimney position. Then I oiled the surface and ran an oiled patch through the bore. (That's a trick to remember next time you need to clean your muzzleloader.)

[Hobie]

Junior,

Dennis posted about this at his blog. This is really a neat solution. I've forwarded this to some friends with similar "aims" in mind.

[Junior1942]

Thanks for the kind words, Hobie. They're meaningful coming from you. I really, really like the way it turned out. It's very cool to quickly bring this rifle to my shoulder and have the sights in perfect alignment with the pupil of my aiming eye. I'll probably find myself picking this rifle even when rain isn't forecast! I'll have a detailed article about the entire process posted in a few days.

[Three44s]

Junior,

What a professional job on that M44 front sight!!!!!

Outstanding!

Three 44s

[Junior1942]

Guys, I finished the article: http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/rr.htm

It has more pictures and more details.

[45nut]

Mighty fine write up Junior.

[Junior1942]

Junior, I'm just wondering...Can you tap the swivel hole to take a lyman screw in aperture?I did some looking and thinking. It looks to me like it would be easy to widen the ~.150" swivel stud hole to .159" for a 10-32 tap for Marbles apertures or to widen it to .191" for a 7/32" x 40 tap for Williams and Lyman apertures.

I may take another swivel stud and make a target rear peep.

[reboundspring]

Gents,
One of our readers took the time to contact me at TacticalOperations.com where I work, looking for custom Mosin work.
Thanks for the interest. Sadly, I build MN rifles for personal relief from Rem 700's, but do not build
M-Ns commercially. The cost is too high unless one is obsessed with the rifle. (OK, I am)
If you can't live without a 1/4 to 1/2 MOA Mosin, contact TacOps, or post to me here on this site.
Maybe i can help you out.
I'm not soliciting work. I'm just an enthusiast like everybody else, and I enjoy the notion of an
"Ultimate Mosin Match Rifle".

Regards to all
Reboundspring