Starting over; .308 Winchester

[DeanWinchester]

If you're one of the three people that reads what I post :bigsmyl2:
You'll know I've been chasing .308 around for a while. Well, now I've started over.

I got some Lyman#2 alloy from Rotometals, a thermometer and I had Veral cut me a mold that was fitted to my pound cast.
First off, wow! What a turn around LBT done! About 6 days. That's fast!

This mold casts very nice around 650 degrees and the bullets just jump out. I water dropped these so they should be pretty hard.

Since all my attempts failed, I let Veral decide what I need. These weigh in a very consistent 150g +/- .5g. This may be the first mold I've ever had that cast at the advertised weight.

Im going start with AA2015 since I have around 9lbs of it, and push up to 2200 fps or so.
If you havent read Veral Smiths book, it's worth the time.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/imagejpg1_zps5498df1c.jpg

[RickinTN]

Looking forward to your on-target results!
Rick

[singleshot]

Make that 4! Now 4 people read your posts!

Looking forward to your results.

Quick question: What rifle, barrel length and twist?

[DeanWinchester]

LOL!

This time its a Weatherby Vanguard (Howa), 22in 1/10 twist.

[GhostHawk]

Make me 5.

Dean I admire the way your resetting everything to zero and starting over.

If you find a decent accuracy spot in the 1600-1800fps range might want to settle for that for a bit. Once all is back working the way it is supposed to is the time to think about pushing the edge. NOT when everything you touch is turning to brown smelly stuff.

But it will make interesting reading either way, GOOD LUCK!

[BruceB]

In my .308 project with the M1A, which ate up some thousands of cast-bullet loads, I also ran a very few rounds through an FAL..... and now I'll soon be trying some of the more-promising loads in a Ruger Gunsite Rifle.

It'll be interesting to see if there's any correlation between the rifles as to what constitutes an "accurate load" (in their collective opinion).

My best result in the M1A was with 311467, the Loverin 180-grain (+/-) bullet, driven by... of all things.... H4831. That load not only cycled the M1A correctly, but it also laid TEN of those Loverins into 0.60" from fifty yards with IRON sights.

I really want to try that recipe in the bolt-action rifle!

[Ben]

I'm ready to see some targets.

Signed,

" One of the three "

[williamwaco]

I have had good results with 2015 in the .30-30

[AlaskanGuy]

Count me In DeanoSaurus... I will be watching..

:popcorn:

[swheeler]

Just waiting for test report:)

[Kraschenbirn]

Funny thing...just this morning I was mulling over trying AA2015 in my .308 M700. Currently, I'm shooting the Lee 312-155 (sized to .311) over 26.5 gr. of IMR4198...'cept I'm down to my last 1/4 lb of IMR4198 with less than 150 rounds remaining on the shelf. Like you, though, I've got a supply of AA2015 on hand so I'll be watching for the results of your load work-up.


Bill

[C. Latch]

Veral Smith isn't a spring chicken anymore. I really want to get one of his molds while I can.

[MT Chambers]

The LBT spitzers don't have a bore riding portion, making it kinda tough to seat the longer heavier spitzers without the gc well below the shoulder, I have a 200 gr. LBT spitzer that cant be used in any of my guns....this is not any kind of a knock on LBT molds which are top notch, maybe a design problem.

[DeanWinchester]

Veral hates bore riders. I mean he despises them.
My particular spitzer is perfect in terms of length. I sent him a pound cast chamber impression of my rifle. He made a bullet that fit that. It came out to be 150g. It will lightly engage the rifling and the base is seated flush with base of the neck.

[35 shooter]

Hope this one is the charm for you. It is a good looking boolit and does sound like the fit is there.Bet it's gonna shoot for you.

[TXGunNut]

Nice looking boolits!
I understand about starting a project over, sometimes you need to start with a blank sheet of paper and approach it like a brand-new endeavor. Looking forward to load notes and a range report.

[Ben]

DeanWinchester

" Veral hates bore riders. I mean he despises them. "

I guess this is where Veral and I part ways.
I happen to like ALL of my bore riders.

Ben

[DeanWinchester]

Well, I'm about ready for the first try.
(50) pcs neck sized FC brass, Win Large Rifle Primer
150g lbt cast from water dropped Lyman #2 alloy, Hornady check, LBT blue soft lube, sized .311
Ladder test of 2015 going (10) rounds each; 29.0g-30.0g-31.0g-32.0g & 33.0g
Seated at 2.595 rifling engraves but extraction is easy to extract.

[Silverboolit]

I hope that you have better luck with your 150 gr than I did. Here is 175 gr with 2400 load. Not too bad for first real try with new mold.

[Ben]

I hope that you have better luck with your 150 gr than I did. Here is 175 gr with 2400 load. Not too bad for first real try with new mold.

I'm having problems reading your data in your photo? Can you give details of your load and distance fired ?

[Ben]

Well, I'm about ready for the first try.
(50) pcs neck sized FC brass, Win Large Rifle Primer
150g lbt cast from water dropped Lyman #2 alloy, Hornady check, LBT blue soft lube, sized .311
Ladder test of 2015 going (10) rounds each; 29.0g-30.0g-31.0g-32.0g & 33.0g
Seated at 2.595 rifling engraves but extraction is easy to extract.

Ladder test of 2015 going (10) rounds each; 29.0g-30.0g-31.0g-32.0g & 33.0g
Seated at 2.595 rifling engraves but extraction is easy to extract.

Going to take some time to fire all of those. In this summer heat, once that barrel is hot, it isn't going to cool very quickly. Better take plenty of ice water and some good reading while you wait on that barrel to cool.

Ben

[DeanWinchester]

I shoot early on Sunday mornings. One round every three minutes usually keeps things cool.
Ill bring other toys to keep me occupied. Actually I just traded for a nagant revolver. That'll keep me busy.

[Piedmont]

Dean, I missed your posts on earlier work with the .308. Would you mind stating what rifle you are using?

[Silverboolit]

sorry..22 gr of 2400, 50 yds., 175 gr Accurate Mold bore rider out of lino/range scrap, al gas check, loaded to 2.76" OAL. All boolits weighed in at 183 gr. with lube and check, loaded in LC brass, using LEE collet die, slight factory crimp. 90 degrees and a slight RH wind.

I am having cataract surgery and have to get this back out to the range to try and duplicate this. Hopefully in a month or so if it cools down at all. Today was 105F.

[DeanWinchester]

Dean, I missed your posts on earlier work with the .308. Would you mind stating what rifle you are using?
22inch 10 twist Weatherby Vanguard II (Howa 1500)

[DeanWinchester]

UPDATE


Well, no change.
Similar groupings, no consistency.
Best (5) round group was .900 @ 50 yards for 29.0g of 2015. Next (5) shots of same load was 1.625
Working up a ladder from 29.0-33.0g groups ranged from .900 up to 3.5 inches.
Terrible.

SO, maybe there's something wrong with the rifle, or the shooter even! I brought along a box Hornady TAP 168g factory loads and shot (5) - Four round groups. I didn't even let the rifle cool. It was pretty dang hot by the end of this 20 rounds.
The (5) four round groups at 50 yards were
.600, .500, .81, .55 & .63
That's what I've been looking for and it tell me it's strictly MY loads, not my shooting or the rifle.

It is becoming apparent to me this rifle will be on a copper condom diet.I have 150 boolits left cast from water cooled Lyman #2 from this LBT mold. I'm going to try those with 4064, 4198 and 3031. It's the only powder I have. IF they don't shoot somewhere close to an inch, Casting for the .308 is over. I have my limits for patience. I have some dacron so I'm going to try a little filler with the 4064 loads.

I'm glad it's not the rifle itself. That's worth something.

[Blammer]

try IMR3031 FIRST and 4064 last would be my only suggestion.

[tomme boy]

How about letting us know how you are preparing your brass and the whole loading sequence. Maybe someone can offer up some suggestions on what you are doing. What neck expander? how are you seating them? Are you sorting the bullets for weight? What lube? Alloy?

[DeanWinchester]

Well, I started with a pile of FC brass, all fired from this rifle. I weighed each one until i had (50) pcs 176.0g-177.9g.
I start with a Lee collet die that, with the current mandrel, gives me about .0015-.002 neck tension on a .311 boolit. I use a Lee flaring die to VERY gently open the mouth. Primer pockets uniformed, I seat a Win large rifle primer and charge, all charges have been hand weighed. Seat the boolit, check for run out and lead shaving. Haven't seen a problem with either. Then I use a Lee factory crimp die to close the flared end until the case mouth measures .340 which is about .002 under what a once fired case measures.

My gun range runs 30 minute relays between hot and clear. I manage 10 rounds per relay, about every three minutes so the barrel stays cool in this ridiculous TN heat. I bring a light recoiling pistol to keep me occupied between shots. :-P


Current boolits are water dropped Lyman #2 alloy sized .311 and lubed with LBT Blue Soft. I was limited on the amount of bullets I could cast, I only had a couple of bars from Rotometals. The boolit weight ranged from 149.9-151.2 SO I just run them as is. I know weight variances can make a difference but I just don't beleive thats enough difference to matter at 50 yards.
Ive never seen a hint of fouling or leading. The bore stays very clean. The stupid things just won't fly straight. SOMETHING is upsetting the boolit because the damn thing fits. AND it fits GOOD. Not jump, no freebore, no empty space in the throat. No boolit below the case neck. All but the tip is supported, I'd say, 80% of the boolit is supported. There's no good reason it won't shoot better. Even if the groupings weren't as good as I like, its the inconsistency that's pissing me off. A given load will shoot 5 rounds into 3/4 of an inch one time, the next time it's liable to 2.5 inches.

The factory jacketed stuff was EXTREMELY consistent. Granted I only had 20 rounds to run, but next trip out I'm taking some more jacketed loads that have an inch of dust on them, under my bench.

[MT Chambers]

dean: Try some bore riders.

[Bohica793]

Did you chronograph your cast load? I suspect that if you did, you would find it to be running somewhere in the 2100-2200fps range. I think this is too fast for your cast load. I would recommend that you drop your load to the 26-27grain range and try again. This should put you somewhere in the 1800-2000fps range where I suspect you will be more stable. Just my two cents.

[DeanWinchester]

dean: Try some bore riders.
I've tried several. They all sucked, in .308 anyway. Worked well in 30/30, 35 Rem, & 300BLK.

[Blammer]

I too would recommend trying 28, 27 and 26gr.

If you try IMR3031 start with 28gr and go up from there.

[DeanWinchester]

Did you chronograph your cast load? I suspect that if you did, you would find it to be running somewhere in the 2100-2200fps range. I think this is too fast for your cast load. I would recommend that you drop your load to the 26-27grain range and try again. This should put you somewhere in the 1800-2000fps range where I suspect you will be more stable. Just my two cents.

I've run loads down to 8 or 9 grains of Unique. Speed isn't the issue here, I don't think so anyway. Veral agreed it wasn't an issue either. Not with everything the way I have it. Lube is right, hardness is right, fit is right, something else is NOT right.

[tomme boy]

Stop crimping the loads for one thing. Lower your seating die to just touch the case mouth. Seat your bullets in two steps. Seat half way then rotate them 1/2 turn then final seat.

[GhostHawk]

One more vote for 3031 first and start light. Start at 25 or 26 and try small groups. Each group 1 grain more than the previous.

You have gas checks on these cast bullets? Did you change checks, or how your putting them on?

[DeanWinchester]

Stop crimping the loads for one thing. Lower your seating die to just touch the case mouth. Seat your bullets in two steps. Seat half way then rotate them 1/2 turn then final seat.
I don't crimp anything.

[tomme boy]

Your using a LFC die. Don't use it at all.

[DeanWinchester]

Your using a LFC die. Don't use it at all.

That has no effect on anything that I can see. It's not like a pistol FCD where it can size the boolit down. All the collet is doing is closing the flare I made. It's not putting any more tension on the boolit than rest of the neck. In fact, probably less than the rest of the neck.

I tried not flaring, shaved lead don't work none too good though. I can go back to an Mdie but it's not necessary. I have the right neck ID already and it's a lot slower for nothing.

[Ben]

The frustration shows in your comments.

Sorry it isn't working out for you,

Ben

[jmort]

The collet FCD works well. Once again I would recommend the 165 grain Ranch Dog. You can get a few from Carolina cast to try out.
165 grain RNFL gc
30-30 and most 30 caliber rifles .309" .310" .311"

This bullet was designed specially for 30-30 lever action rifles. It features the large flat point and larger than most RNFL bullets for more efficent energy transfer. It also works well in most other 30 caliber rifles. We offer sizing to three different diamters to better fit the different bore sizes found in 30 caliber rifles.

$17.50 / 100
$77.00 / 500

Shipping in USPS small ($5.15) or medium ($10.85) flat rate boxes

http://www.carolinacastbullets.com/Ranch_Dog_Outdoors.html

[DeanWinchester]

The frustration shows in your comments.

Sorry it isn't working out for you,

Ben


Its gonna show even more some day when I post pictures of me beating it against the Bradford Pear tree in my front yard. :bigsmyl2:

[Silverboolit]

Dean... What boreriders have you used? Just curious.

[Silverboolit]

111887Dean: Would you try some 175gr that I have had good luck with? I would mail you some with data if you want.

Shot these this week, not weighed, just from mold. Powder was dropped from the RCBS measure. Nothing special about the loading, just plinkers. 50 yds, 15 shots.

[Piedmont]

DeanWinchester, What are you looking for as far as velocity and accuracy with the cast loads? What is their purpose?

[tomme boy]

Trust me, it can and will distort the bullet. Your seating die can straighten out the flair just fine. I use the RCBD neck expander. You can get a couple of sizes to adjust the neck tension. It flairs the round also.

Another thing is to make sure your brass is the exact same length.

You might just have to slow down the time you are shooting also. Especially if it is a pencil thin factory barrel. I had a 223 Remington one time that I only could shoot 3 rounds in a row. They would be 3 in a 0.4" group and the 4th would go 1/2" out. EVERY time. I took this rifle out 5 times in a row and used the same target and it kept the first 3 shots every time in a 0.6" group. If I let it sit for over an hour I could shoot it again.

Then sometimes it is just easier to give up and go find a new rifle.

[DeanWinchester]

Tomme, I'd have to get me another seating die. This one will not close the bell. The Lee die I have has no provision for a crimp or anything that would iron out the flare.

I trim the brass envy single time I reload it.

I don't think it's barrel heat but I could be wrong. The barrel is 3/4" at the muzzle so it's fairly heavy.

To to give up and go find a new rifle would make the fifth time. I ain't doing that. I'll make this work or I'll give up casting for .308 This rifle shoots jacketed far too well to let it go.

[tomme boy]

The Lee die should be able to get rid of the flair. Back out your seater plug about 2 turns from where you have it now. Do the same with the lock ring but about 4 turns. Seat a round with the die backed off and not locked down. Leave the ram all the way up with the round still in the die. Screw the die down till yo feel a little resistance. Lower the ram and check to see if the bell if starting to disappear. If it is not, put the round back in the press and raise it up and screw the die down a 1/4 turn and check again. I always leave just a very very slight flair. But not turning in of the brass.

[tomme boy]

The barrel may have a lot of internal stress. A little bit of heat can release this stress and make it walk around. Most factory rifle barrels are not stress relieved. You could pull the barrel and have it cryo treated or let it sit for the next 60 years and let mother nature do it for you.

[RickinTN]

Tomme Boy may be on to something here. I do nothing to remove the taper left by my M-die. Fortunately, or un-fortunatley my chamber neck area's are generous enough to allow chambering this way. I do only flair the necks in the .004" range, not really enough to see, but enough to clear the bullet and prevent shaving of the bullet. I usually have to measure the mouth of the case to see that there is any flair, and also hand start a bullet with gas-check to see that it goes in somewhere in the range of half of the gas check or a little more.
Rick

[DeanWinchester]

The barrel may have a lot of internal stress. A little bit of heat can release this stress and make it walk around. Most factory rifle barrels are not stress relieved. You could pull the barrel and have it cryo treated or let it sit for the next 60 years and let mother nature do it for you.


That makes sense but it's strange that it grouped so well with Hornady factory ammo and was very hot after doing so, yet I kept the barrel cool to the touch between each shot with cast.

[country gent]

This may sound simple but shoot a .22 rimfire over the bench a few times to see how that does. Light recoiling rifles and rounds can be tricky to get the same recoil and "return" on the front rest and bags than a full power load is. If recoil effect isnt the same or close to it it does show in your groups. With BPCR rifles down pressure is an issue due to 2 piece stocks and such. Benchresters are known to use talk on the bags to get a easy free slide of the rifle. Return to battery rests normally use a linear bearing with low friction to get the same "free" movement. M1As need the sling tension in place to show what they are capable of under match conditions. Testing these I normally did so with a sandbagged prone position. Sand bags under buttstock and back of foreward hand same sling tension and same prone position I used in a match. It may take finding "how" this rifle wants to be shot

[DeanWinchester]

This may sound simple but shoot a .22 rimfire over the bench a few times to see how that does. Light recoiling rifles and rounds can be tricky to get the same recoil and "return" on the front rest and bags than a full power load is. If recoil effect isnt the same or close to it it does show in your groups. With BPCR rifles down pressure is an issue due to 2 piece stocks and such. Benchresters are known to use talk on the bags to get a easy free slide of the rifle. Return to battery rests normally use a linear bearing with low friction to get the same "free" movement. M1As need the sling tension in place to show what they are capable of under match conditions. Testing these I normally did so with a sandbagged prone position. Sand bags under buttstock and back of foreward hand same sling tension and same prone position I used in a match. It may take finding "how" this rifle wants to be shot


Same rifle, same rest, same hold, same distance, I had excellent results with the factory ammo. It's not the rest.

[Silverboolit]

Have you tried some factory 150 gr loads? Might be interesting to see if the results are different/same. How does the factory loads shoot at 100 yds? How is the torque on the action screws? Is this in a factory stock? Glass bedded? Have you gotten all of the copper fouling out of the bore? Scope of known reliability? Try seating the cast boolits back a little bit, off the lands. Have you recovered any bullets that have been shot? Barrel is free floated? Have you tried a spacer under the fore tip of the stock to put a little upward pressure on the barrel?

Really stupid and basic questions, I know. But it never hurts to think about overlooked possibilities.

[DeanWinchester]

All torque is to factory spec using a Snap On torque wrench (inch pound measure)
as is the scope base and rings. The base is epoxy bedded.

I haven't tried 150g factory loads......but I will. I swore I'd never feed this rifle jackets but I guess I'm a liar. The box of 168g stuff shot awesome. I've got several ammo cans full of various jacketed stuff I've loaded over the years. Everything from 150g JHP to 175g SMK and 180g ballistic tips. Next range trip I'm going to take an assortment and see if there's any inconsistency.

Even though it shot VERY well, I can't justify the price of Hornady TAP. Which I knew what powder they used in those. Up it's probably a proprietary powder.

[Silverboolit]

Please let us know on how the assorted j-words shot at 50 yds. I struggled for over a year with my Howa to finally get it to shoot.

[Silverboolit]

Another stupid idea.... Loosen the front action screw and see if the barrel/front of receiver moves up.

[country gent]

While you are discounting it recoil/pressure curves/ movements can and do affect a rifles performance thru the barrels harmonics and compression of stock and or bedding surfaces. Lower pressure lighter loads dont always give the same harmonics waves as do other ammo as to super loads not always giving the same. I wasnt impluing rest was a problem but that a slightly diffrent techniqye might be required with this rifle. bench rest shooters use many diffrent techniques tricks to get the bug hole groups. Another one is the big double rifles (think Holland and Holland in the large calibers) arnt shot from a bench to regulate them but from a shooting post and back of hand set into padding to support rifle as this allows rifle to recoil naturally and freely not as much effects of harmonics ( or broken stocks and collar bones). Yes same rifle, same rest, same hold,same distance only diffrence ammo and pressures its producing.

[DeanWinchester]

While you are discounting it recoil/pressure curves/ movements can and do affect a rifles performance thru the barrels harmonics and compression of stock and or bedding surfaces. Lower pressure lighter loads dont always give the same harmonics waves as do other ammo as to super loads not always giving the same. I wasnt impluing rest was a problem but that a slightly diffrent techniqye might be required with this rifle. bench rest shooters use many diffrent techniques tricks to get the bug hole groups. Another one is the big double rifles (think Holland and Holland in the large calibers) arnt shot from a bench to regulate them but from a shooting post and back of hand set into padding to support rifle as this allows rifle to recoil naturally and freely not as much effects of harmonics ( or broken stocks and collar bones). Yes same rifle, same rest, same hold,same distance only diffrence ammo and pressures its producing.


Oh, gotcha.
Well if that's the case, maybe this rifle needs to go too. Defeats the idea of having a dependable utility rifle if it's picky like a dang woman.

[tomme boy]

Picky, I have one that really likes free recoil. If you lay your head on the stock it shoots like cr*p. But if you have it secured in the bags and just touch off the trigger, it will put 7 rounds into a 0.2" group.

Every is just like a woman. Just have to figure out what makes them purr!

[DeanWinchester]

.2? I don't know what range that is but that's very very good.
Better than I'm looking for actually.

Maybe be I'm asking for too much. Wouldn't be the first time I've had delusions of grandeur.
An inch at 50 yards just isn't a lot to ask for in my opinion. ....and I've got just what I'm asking for!......with a dam jacketed bullet. *spit*

[nekshot]

I had 2 times a rifle would not shoot decent and both times in frustration I went to Trail Boss and I had a winner! I have never had tb work in the higher side of speed but 1200 to 1500fps tb can make you feel good when all else fails!

[Silverboolit]

Don't give up on this project. Remember, it isn't a job, it's an adventure!! Actually, you are doing well on this. I know it is disappointing, but finding the right things that work make it all worth it.

Did you look at Accurate Arms website for descriptions of powder? IIRC, they have a 'Camp Perry' powder described as for the .308. Don't remember what the number is, though. You may want to call them for a suggestion. Never hurts to go to the mfg. and get some info, they should know.

[DeanWinchester]

Everyone keeps saying don't give up. And I haven't yet but there's no adventure to it. After five years of wrestling with .308 and four different rifles, I'm almost there. I've put in the time, money and effort got dick in return.
Ive been through so many molds I can't even remember them all.
Mihec 170g, Lee 155g & 160g (for 7.62x39), Lee 170g flat point, 311299, 311291, 311413(and a hollow point version), Accurate 165g, and my latest 150g LBT. There's been others I just cannot remember. I've shot them in a plethora of combinations through a Savage 10PC, savage Axis, Ruger M77mkII, a Brazilian Mauser rebarreled, and my Weatherby.

Wow, after typing this and a looking back, it's a bit depressing. Others can make a .308 sing like a sewing machine with lead, I for whatever reason cannot.

If what I've put in so far isn't enough effort, then the end result isn't worth the effort. Not when other calibers and guns yield results so much easier.

I've contacted the guy over at accurate and they are very good about replies. I've tried their suggestions.

[Silverboolit]

Dean.. I apologize, I didn't realize that you have been working with that kind of history. It sounded like you had just the Weatherby.

What is the common denominator in all of these endevors?

[aap2]

Hey Dean: My .308 boltgun would not shoot accurately until I tried 19 grains of SR4759 (or equivilent charge of 2400 or similar powders) until I tried the RCBS 165 grain Sil boolit or the great Saeco #315 tapered boolit......If you want to try these boolits in your rifle, shoot me a PM and I will send you a bunch (no charge of course) to try in your rifle....My .308 Rem 700 Tactical 5R woult NOT shoot well with all of the boolits that you have tried......

[TXGunNut]

I have a few 30-06's with 1:10 twist barrels. They all shoot j-words so I don't talk aboout them much here. I have other rifles that are more CB-friendly so quite honestly I haven't bothered casting for them. If I keep reading Ben's threads I'll probably give it a try someday. There are worse things than shooting j-words, I even shot a box of factory-loaded j-words yesterday...because I couldn't find any brass.
As discussed above I think the answer may lie in getting a seating die that gets the case mouth just right. Hang in there, unlike a woman you can put this rifle in the safe awhile until you figure out what to try next.

[runfiverun]

I'm coming in this midway through what's going on so I'm a bit lost.
dean you need to know a few things.
measure your throat area.
from the neck/shoulder junction of the case to about 1/2" forward.
this is the area of your rifle you need to be concerned about.
trimming your cases may be hurting your efforts here, that's how you find out.
hold the boolit to the centerline of the barrel, that's how you find out that measurement too.
accelerate the boolit gently at first then accelerate it the length of the barrel.
I'm using 4831-sc to do this in my 308.
I worked the load up until the powder started burning clean indicating I was getting near 50-k in pressure.
oddly this was also when my accuracy tuning really started.

[Grizzly Adams]

Dean, I know you are tired of hearing it, but don't give up. You may be getting frustrated, but the rest of us are getting a good education 😉. You are doing everything right, you just haven't found the right thing that will make the difference yet. I don't mean to question your ability, I'm just curious have you had someone else shoot your rifle with your casts. Sometimes we try so hard to make something work we put undue stress on ourselves, I know this sounds all touchy feely, but if you have someone who you trust their shooting ability, let them have a go at it, if they get the same results you are no further behind, just a thought.

[facetious]

I got a mould from LBT in the early 90's. FNLC 170. that was made from a pound cast for my Ruger .308. I started with IMR 4227 and data from the lyman book. working up from a starting load groups went from so so to bad as I went up. just to see I tryed dropping the starting load and things got better.

After reading on this site for a while I see alot of times guys are using loads that are less then starting loads found in the load books.

As a side note when I got the mould I told him that I had been using 165 Rem. CL's and when I got some cast up and made my first dummy the die was still set for the CL's and the fit was so close I could have left it the way it was.

[cbrick]

I read through this thread and a couple of things I didn't see mentioned, read back through it to see if I missed it.

What does the bore slug? What is the as cast diameter? What are you sizing to?

What are you using to size the boolits? An in & out sizer can and does size boolits off center and non-concentric. This isn't a matter of leading, it's a matter of balance in flight that's made worse by longer ranges and/or higher velocity. A push through sizer will size more concentrically, your choices are the LEE or the Star.

Harder is not better simply because it's harder, that's an old wives tale. Lyman #2 should be from plenty hard to too hard for what your doing. I shoot my 308 to 2,000 fps with air cooled WW +2% Sn (12 BHN), accurate & no leading. I recommend dropping the water quenching or even going to a softer alloy such as COWW with 2% Sn. I've done a lot of group testing using oven heat treated alloy going up in BHN using the same load and it's common for groups to open up as the boolit gets harder. Harder is better and hardcast just t'ain't necessarily so and has been the source of frustration for many a boolit caster over the years.

My go-to load in my single shot 308 is a 180 gr boolit sized .002" over measured groove diameter with a Star lubrisizer, air cooled COWW +2% Sn, 19.0 Gr SR 4759 and a standard LR primer. Seated to just kiss the rifling.

Rick

[DeanWinchester]

The bore is around .3095-.310
I'm sizing to .311. My method for sizing is a Lee push through sizer first because it's fast and easy. I don't lube till I'm ready to load. I lube with an RCBS LaMII and have been using LBT Blue Soft.

The boolits fall from the mold about .0005 over. Just enough to get a minimal clean up of the driving bands.


Ain't no 4759 around here. I do have a few pounds of 2400. Maybe I'll try that next.

[Silverboolit]

I like the idea of trying the 2400. 16-22 grains should work. Have you been using AA2015 in all of the rounds that you have loaded? Have you tried to shoot as cast with no sizing? Just take a few boolits and use some mule snot on them.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=DeanWinchester;2874339]

I'm sizing to .311.

QUOTE

In any "normal" .30-caliber rifle, I'm sizing ALL bullets to .311" until 'something' arises to cause me to change.

On the long M1A/.308 thread, I fired over six thousand experimental rounds with every bullet sized at .311, and the results were excellent.

I don't even bother slugging .30-caliber barrels these days (yeah, yeah, it's rank heresy, I know.....but it works for me.)

[DeanWinchester]

I don't even bother slugging .30-caliber barrels these days (yeah, yeah, it's rank heresy, I know.....but it works for me.)

No, that's not heresy at all. If you know your throat diameter, there's little to no reason to know what the bore is. Maybe if there's a tight or loose spot it'd be nice to know but if you're not seeing leading go with the throat diameter every time.

[runfiverun]

if 17 grs of 2400 won't shoot reasonably well in a 308 you got problems with the rifle.
I can mis-match just about whatever boolit I want to a 308 and that load will shoot reasonable [under 2"] 100 yd groups.

[DeanWinchester]

if 17 grs of 2400 won't shoot reasonably well in a 308 you got problems with the rifle.
I can mis-match just about whatever boolit I want to a 308 and that load will shoot reasonable [under 2"] 100 yd groups.


Im gonna try it. BUT, what problems could it have that affects cast but still shoots jacketed so well?

[cbrick]

You might try softer boolits as I suggested. Simply no need to shoot diamonds and it can be detrimental to accuracy. Yes I know that condom bullets are harder than your quenched boolits but there is no way to compare shooting copper jackets and any lead alloy. What the copper jacket does has nothing to do with what lead does.

Rick

[tomme boy]

It measures 0.309"-0.310"x????

[DeanWinchester]

It measures 0.309"-0.310"x????

Yeah, the slug I pushed through measures around .3095 or so depending on how you hold the mic. It ain't easy measuring it. The throat measures .310, so saith my pound cast.
.311 should be perfect.

[RickinTN]

I gotta ask. I think I remember the parallel portion or freebore of your throat had a length of about .140"? How are you getting a .311" bullet into a .310" throat? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here.
Rick

[Silverboolit]

Lyman load data for 2015..26.0 gr = 13400psi, 31.7 gr = 24100 psi.. Alliant 2400..15.5 gr= 15800 psi, 22.0 gr = 34,800 psi, velocities about the same.

You had better luck with the lower loading with 2015, right?

Your alloy may be too hard considering the lower pressures that you are running. Your bullet may not be filling the grooves in the barrel and skidding. Try to recover some spent boolits and check for skid marks.

[tomme boy]

Dean, what I mean is most USA made rifles have a 0.308"x0.300" barrel. I was wondering what yours is?

[DeanWinchester]

I gotta ask. I think I remember the parallel portion or freebore of your throat had a length of about .140"? How are you getting a .311" bullet into a .310" throat? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here.
Rick


Yeah, brain fart, sorry. The spot in between the case mouth and where the rifling starts measures .311. Veral designed and built this mold to be .311 up to the ogive. I sent him the pound cast and he cut it to that. It fits. When I close the bolt, I can FEEL it fit, but it doesn't hang and extraction is easy. I can feel it though, basically 'Touching" everything.

Accuracy is nothing more than a function of launching a stabile, balanced bullet. Hard for me to beleive this bullet is unbalanced. Its supported by more than 75-80% of its surface area.

[DeanWinchester]

Dean, what I mean is most USA made rifles have a 0.308"x0.300" barrel. I was wondering what yours is?

Well, this is Japanese made.

[DeanWinchester]

Lyman load data for 2015..26.0 gr = 13400psi, 31.7 gr = 24100 psi.. Alliant 2400..15.5 gr= 15800 psi, 22.0 gr = 34,800 psi, velocities about the same.

You had better luck with the lower loading with 2015, right?

Your alloy may be too hard considering the lower pressures that you are running. Your bullet may not be filling the grooves in the barrel and skidding. Try to recover some spent boolits and check for skid marks.


I've tried air cooled wheel weights, although not with this particular boolit but with everything else so far. You'd think if the boolits were skidding, the volume I've run and the fact I only run a dry patch once or twice for cleaning, would show some leading somewhere.
No joke, the bore is spotless. If anything, it's shinier now than when I got it.

Ive tried 2015 with every boolit so far and it's pretty much sucked all the way. I keep trying to make it work because I have over 9 pounds of the çrap.

[Silverboolit]

Dean.. Don't take this wrong, but I think that your powder choice is a little off. Look at the loads on this website, and you don't see too many running the powder that you are using. Could the powder choice be the common denominator that is holding you back? You have changed everything, 4 rifles, how many molds, etc. You have spent a lot more in trying to get results that you want than a couple of diff. powders would have cost.

I know I am not the sharpest pencil in the cup, but if we were closer, we'd make that Weatherby sing a different song.

[DeanWinchester]

I've used a lot of different powders. I'm running with 2015, 3031, 4198, 4064, 2400, Unique & Varget because that's all I have.
In the past I've also tried 4350, BL-C2, 2520, wc846, wc844, wc844t, wc842 & smp842

[DeanWinchester]

Okay, how about this one.
I was at the local gunshop, there, in the back of the shelf were two dusty canisters of SR4759. I said, "These weren't here before".
"Oh yeah, they were buried in the back."

$40 for two pounds. Not too bad.

Reckon 4759 will run in this thing? I think I'll load up some 2400 & SR4759 and try them both. Worst it can do is fail. If it does, I'll have that for consistency.

[RickinTN]

I just bought my first pound of 4759 a few weeks ago. I haven't had time to try it but expect good things. I think I know that somewhere in the 19 to 20 grain range with your bullet is supposed to work well. I have my fingers crossed for your success.
Rick

[DeanWinchester]

Interesting discovery today. Not sure I believe it will cause my groups to shrink but.....

I was inspecting my cases to get ready for the next go round. I was really looking them over and I never thought to look before but there is some NASTY burrs on the inside of the flash hole on about 3/4 of these cases.
I went to town today and bought a Lyman tool and fixed that. I don't think for a second the groups are gonna just tighten up dramatically but this could be the source of the inconsistency, yeah?

[Ben]

DeanWinchester

Removing each and EVERY variable in the reloading process is certainly a step in the right direction.

I've been know to lightly spin a VERY sharp drill bit that is slightly larger than the flash hole on the inside of the case and in the primer pocket , to clean things up .

This will do a pretty good job of removing any burrs.

Ben

[Silverboolit]

Dean....How did today work out for you??

[DeanWinchester]

Dean....How did today work out for you??

Pretty good. I got up late, ate, ruled my kingdom of tile from my porcelain throne, and then took a nap.

Been a great day so far!

[country gent]

Deburring flasholes does help some How much I cant say for sure. I made a debyrr tool with a small center drill set in a stem and an adjustable stop so all cases could be chamfered the same from the mouth of the case. Mine osnt have a handle byt is driven in a drill press spindle and cases set on by hand and fed by hand pressure. What I would like to try is a cutter with a chamfer cutter and pin stop so flas holes chamfer could be held to depth from primer pockets surface or possibly case heads. Would take some playing but a solid angled [pin spinning might burnish the burrs out with out any real metal removal also. Uniforming primer pockets a few thousandths also seems to help accuracy consistency.

[highmaster82]

I load the lee .308X180 gr tumble lubed standard gas check bullet, 39 gr slow lot of 852 (4831 data) about 1800 fps . Kriger barrel 1-11 twist .308 match rifle . 1 to 1.5 moa at 200 yds. also cycles my dpms LR .

[DeanWinchester]

I know it's bad form to change more than one thing at a time but I've got all the flash holes deburred. There were a lot of chips for such a tiny job.

Next, I switched back to an Mdie. Before I was adjusting the collet die to get the tension I need, then flaring with a Lee Universal Flare.
Now, I've put a healthy chamfer on the ID and run them into the MDie just enough to prevent shaving but still chamber easily. Any flare at the case mouth is gonna be left there and I'm not going to close it with the collet crimp die.

As time allows this week, I have 50pcs to load; (10) each @ 17.0g-21.0g of 2400.
Wonder what, if anything, will change this go around?

I've also got two pounds of 4759 to try after that. I'm scared of 4759 though. Something tells me it'll probably shoot the best.......because they just discontinued production of it. It'll be my luck to find the sweet spot and not be able to get the powder to repeat it.

[DeanWinchester]

You're not gonna get a heavier "non bore rider" in this rifle without seating the boolit below the case neck, which is something I'm not going to do for several reasons.

[Kraschenbirn]

...Ive tried 2015 with every boolit so far and it's pretty much sucked all the way. I keep trying to make it work because I have over 9 pounds of the çrap.

Too bad we're not closer together 'cause I'd gladly make an offer to take some of that '****' off your hands. :)

Seriously, at one time, AA2015 was the 'hot number' among the bench-resters for cartridges like the Rem 7BR, .308x1.5, 6.5 PPC, etc. I started using it when I was shooting a custom XP100 in 7BR for IHMSA (off sandbags w/scope: moa groups from a 14" barrel). Currently, I burn a lot of it in my .45-70s where 29.5 gr. 2015 + 440 gr. RNFP = 1270 fps from my Pedersoli RB. Until AA2015 got hard to find around here, I was also using it in the 7.5x55 Swiss and getting pretty fair accuracy.

Bill

[waco]

My best .308 load so far is a Lee 155gr boolit over 19gr of SR4759 and a .7gr tuff of Dacron filler. I was getting pretty consistant five shot groups at 100 yards that measured right around 1.2-1.5"

2400 was a close second accuracy wise. Speed for both loads was somewhere around 1700 FPS if memory serves. Alloy was coww and 2% tin. Air cooled.
Waco

[Silverboolit]

Dean... Did you get out and check the new loads yet?

[DeanWinchester]

Dean... Did you get out and check the new loads yet?


Not yet. I only get to the range on the last Sunday of the month nowadays.
I have my 2400 & 4759 loads ready.
I also neck sized the 20 pcs of Hornady Match Brass I fired last time (factory TAP ammo) and loaded them w/ 168g Nosler Ballistic Tip over BLC-2. Velocity should be the same as the factory loads. I'll only fire those if the cast loads fail me once more. If I do shoot the jacketed loads and they shoot well, I may keep this rifle for jacketed loads only and move on to yet ANOTHER rifle. Although, if I don't get this one shooting cast, I'm probably done with .30 cal casting. I've been chomping at the bit for a .358 Win for far too long anyway.

[tomme boy]

Get a Savage and then you can swap out the barrels yourself. And they are really cheap for a custom barrel.

[SSGOldfart]

If you're one of the three people that reads what I post :bigsmyl2:
You'll know I've been chasing .308 around for a while. Well, now I've started over.

I got some Lyman#2 alloy from Rotometals, a thermometer and I had Veral cut me a mold that was fitted to my pound cast.
First off, wow! What a turn around LBT done! About 6 days. That's fast!

This mold casts very nice around 650 degrees and the bullets just jump out. I water dropped these so they should be pretty hard.

Since all my attempts failed, I let Veral decide what I need. These weigh in a very consistent 150g +/- .5g. This may be the first mold I've ever had that cast at the advertised weight.

Im going start with AA2015 since I have around 9lbs of it, and push up to 2200 fps or so.
If you havent read Veral Smiths book, it's worth the time.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/imagejpg1_zps5498df1c.jpg
Hmmmm good looking Boolit

[TXGunNut]

As mentioned before, my 1:10 30-06 rifles may never shoot anything but J-words and that's OK with me. If that doesn't appeal to you I'll bet JES would be happy to re-bore your .308 to the .358 you want.

[DeanWinchester]

As mentioned before, my 1:10 30-06 rifles may never shoot anything but J-words and that's OK with me. If that doesn't appeal to you I'll bet JES would be happy to re-bore your .308 to the .358 you want.


As as mad as I've been getting over everything, I want to make sure I try everything "I" can try before I do anything permanent. BUT, don't think for an instant that a rebore is not HIGH on the list of future options.

[TXGunNut]

Sometimes a project needs a timeout. File the whole project under "Hold for Inspiration" and walk away. Someday you'll either discover the solution or find a different use for the rifle, such as reboring. This is supposed to be fun, if a project isn't going well no matter what you do it's time to walk away. Good thing about even unsuccessful projects is that we always learn something.

[CHeatermk3]

I just read this entire thread; I don't recall seeing a post that mentions this, and it's prolly a dumb question, but you are getting all the copper out of your bore before accuracy testing with cast...aren't you?

[DeanWinchester]

I just read this entire thread; I don't recall seeing a post that mentions this, and it's prolly a dumb question, but you are getting all the copper out of your bore before accuracy testing with cast...aren't you?


This rifle has only had 20 rounds of jacketed ammo through it since it was new. It got a VERY thorough enema when I bought it and I gave it a good cleaning with Montana Extreme 50BMG copper solvent after those 20 rounds.

I also have some cast loads from a previous rifle that I use as fouling shooters. I will shoot 2 or 3 of them, then run a dry patch down the bore before taking to new loads. Just something to push the residual oil out the barrel.

[runfiverun]

this is turning into a holy beat down.
that throat is just killing you.
I'm super surprised the boolits I sent you haven't worked.
I stroke them along in 2 308's up to 2400 fps [in the one rifle, a bit less in the shorter barreled one] without any drama, and the accuracy is on par with jaxketed.
it was designed around the 308's throat.

[DeanWinchester]

this is turning into a holy beat down.
that throat is just killing you.
I'm super surprised the boolits I sent you haven't worked.
I stroke them along in 2 308's up to 2400 fps [in the one rifle, a bit less in the shorter barreled one] without any drama, and the accuracy is on par with jaxketed.
it was designed around the 308's throat.


I was more disheartened by that boolit than anything I've tried in a LONG time. It fit PERFECT!
the base of the boolit was at the bottom of the neck, no dangling feet. The nose touched the rifling all the way around. That little angle at the end of the last driving band engaged the leade perfect. You could just feeL the boolit when you closed the bolt.

To say I was disappointed is an understatement.

[Larry Gibson]

Dean

This time its a Weatherby Vanguard (Howa),22in 1/10 twist.

Well, I'm about ready for the first try.
(50) pcs neck sized FC brass, Win Large Rifle Primer
150g lbt cast from water dropped Lyman #2 alloy, Hornady check, LBT blue softlube, sized .311
Ladder test of 2015 going (10) rounds each; 29.0g-30.0g-31.0g-32.0g & 33.0g
Seated at 2.595 rifling engraves but extraction is easy to extract.

Forget the ladder test, it’s a waste of time and components and will lead you to false assumptions. Use the older standard method of 5 shot groups (minimum, 10 shot groups are much better). You will get where you want to go faster and with less components, less time and less effort. Your 29 gr load was probably at the RPM Threshold if not over it and the rest of those loads certainly were. That’s why you’re not getting any accuracy with the powder you’ve chosen; 2015. Apparently a chronograph is not being used?

You really want to use 2015 powder so okay. I have no idea where you got your load info but your “start” is at the top end for that powder in your Howa with the 10” twist. Start at 25 gr and workup to 32 gr. Use a dacron filler (3/4 gr should do nicely).

That LBT bullet is excellent bullet. However, no matter how well it is designed, pushing it fast with a faster burning powder (just what 2015 is) negates much of the good design features. If you want to push the envelope then find some RL19 (saw some on the shelves at the LGS 2 days ago), AA4350 or H4831SC and start at 43 gr with any of them and work up until accuracy goes south.

It doesn’t matter how much you want to make that 2015 powder work at higher velocity it just isn’t going to. You probably won’t get very good accuracy over 2000 fps using it which is apparently the case, eh? Many times what we want and what we get are just not going to be the same. If you want accuracy at a higher velocity, even with that LBT bullet, in your Howa with a 10" twist then you must use a slower burning powder which will ignite and burn efficiently under that light a cast bullet.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Larry,

The only slow powder I have is a pound of Ramshot Hunter i bought on a whim. The response i got from Ramshot is that it is unsuitable for .308, but a discussion here might say different. At least it'll be nice and safe with a case full of that slow burning stuff. I have loaded now, 4759 & 2400. If those fail, i was planning on trying the Hunter, but i wanted to pick up some magnum primers to use with it.


I'm certainly not stuck on 2015, I just happen to have a lot of it. 4064, 4198, 3031, RX7 all struck out too.

I said that Hunter was the only slow powder i have but i also have BL-C2 and Varget. They're not really a SLOW powder but they are slower thsn what i've been trying.
Local shop has H335 i could go get. Veral recommended I try H335.

[Larry Gibson]

Okay, let me say this again; "If you want accuracy at a higher velocity, even with that LBT bullet, in your Howa with a 10" twist then you must use a slower burning powder which will ignite and burn efficiently under that light a cast bullet."

Ball powders need a certain level of psi and flame temp to ignite and burn efficiently. The slower the burning rate of the ball powder the more deterrent there is on the powder to resist ignition and slow the burn rate down. That is what makes this difficult to do with such ball powders with a light weight cast bullet at lower pressures......they just will not burn efficiently until the psi is high enough. By the time the psi is high enough the cast bullet is being driven too fast. If you don't believe that look at the LeveRevolution threads/posts I have made. The difference of 10 - 15 gr of cast bullet weight can make the difference between the powder burning efficiently or not at a useable velocity.

If you want to get accuracy with that LBT 150 gr cast bullet at higher than 1900 - 2000 fps out of your 10" twist barrel such as 2300 - 2400 fps then you will need to use a slower burning powder that ignites and burns efficiently at lower pressure. Guess what are the powders for that? And the answer is not any of the powders you have or mention. You have obviously proven it's not any of the powders you have. There is not any magic lube, alloy, sizing or rain dance that is going to make any of the powders you have work, you have already proven that. Get some RL19, AA4350 or H4831SC.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Yeah Larry. Thats why i mentioned Hunter. Its got the same burn rate as the 4350 powders.

[Larry Gibson]

Yeah Larry. Thats why i mentioned Hunter. Its got the same burn rate as the 4350 powders.

And Hunter is a ball powder that is heavily coated with deterrents. It does not burn efficiently except at higher magnum level psi's. The burning rate is only part of the criteria. The important rest of the criteria part is "you must use a slower burning powder which will ignite and burn efficiently under that light a cast bullet." The 3 powders I stated will ignite and burn efficiently.


Larry Gibson

[BruceB]

The very best accuracy I obtained in THOUSANDS of experimental cast-bullet rounds of .308/7.62 NATO in my M1A was with H4831.

Ignition was a bit marginal, but sufficiently-good to operate the rifle semi-automatically.

Accurate? How about 0.60" for TEN rounds, fired with iron sights from 50 yards?

LISTEN to Mr.Gibson!

[DeanWinchester]

The local shop has H4350 (i think), it may be IMR.
Does that fall in there? I know there's 3 (4350) powders and they are NOT the same.

Any suggestions for where to start? Certainly no data in any of my books for that powder.

i'd be tickled pink if H4350 works. Its easy to get in this market.


I understand hat you are saying about the coating now. It wasnt sinking in a minute ago.:veryconfu

[DeanWinchester]

Okay, the only powders they had that I didn't have were these. What the heck, I grabbed them. If I can't use them for this, I'll burn it somewhere else.

I'm sure the 380 won't work but I'll run it in .243 or soemthing.


http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/photo_zpsd5e3dce1.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

With the IMR 4350; start at 40 gr and workup to 46 gr in 1/2 gr increments. A Dacron filler will not be needed. Be anal in bullet selection; visually inspect and reject for any defect no matter how small. Then weight sort those selected in groups of .3 gr variation. Then GC, size at .311 and lube with the 2500+ lube (it will work better than the Blue Soft). Use 10 shot test strings preferably, 7 shots at a minimum. Take your time shooting and keep the barrel cool, probably 1 shot in 2 minutes as the fastest. Let the barrel cool completely between test strings.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

I'd prefer aa-4350 if I had to choose one of the three.
I'm running H-4831sc in my 308's it cleans up the trash when you get close to 50-k and a little Dacron filler gets you there with a tick less powder.
part of the trick here is getting the boolit started into the barrel [straight] and then accelerating it to speed.
if the hunter powder is on the slow end of 4350 I'd go with it for a few rounds, use the filler and a warm primer to help it burn a little more efficiently.
if it's super dirty and I wanted to still use it I'd trickle 2-3 grs of red-dot in the case first, then the hunter and top it off with a filler to keep everything in place if necessary.
if you are trying to push the velocity envelope you are going to have to go off the grid a little.

[DeanWinchester]

With the IMR 4350; start at 40 gr and workup to 46 gr in 1/2 gr increments. A Dacron filler will not be needed. Be anal in bullet selection; visually inspect and reject for any defect no matter how small. Then weight sort those selected in groups of .3 gr variation. Then GC, size at .311 and lube with the 2500+ lube (it will work better than the Blue Soft). Use 10 shot test strings preferably, 7 shots at a minimum. Take your time shooting and keep the barrel cool, probably 1 shot in 2 minutes as the fastest. Let the barrel cool completely between test strings.

Larry Gibson


I managed to snag a thousand Win magnum rifle primers too. Should i use them or a standard Win primer?

[Larry Gibson]

Standard WLR primer. No need for the magnum primer in the .308W with IMR 4350 or with 2015.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I'd prefer aa-4350 if I had to choose one of the three.
I'm running H-4831sc in my 308's it cleans up the trash when you get close to 50-k and a little Dacron filler gets you there with a tick less powder.
part of the trick here is getting the boolit started into the barrel [straight] and then accelerating it to speed.
if the hunter powder is on the slow end of 4350 I'd go with it for a few rounds, use the filler and a warm primer to help it burn a little more efficiently.
if it's super dirty and I wanted to still use it I'd trickle 2-3 grs of red-dot in the case first, then the hunter and top it off with a filler to keep everything in place if necessary.
if you are trying to push the velocity envelope you are going to have to go off the grid a little.

I also have become a great fan of AA4350. It is very consistent lot to lot, meters very uniformly in my Lyman 55s and provides excellent accuracy. I've also done well with H4350 and IMR 4350 but the AA4350 has definitely won me over. In this case Dean could only get the IMR so that should do, just a PITA to me to weigh all those charges........However, once he finds a load perhaps his thrower will throw uniform enough charges(?).

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

I also have become a great fan of AA4350. It is very consistent lot to lot, meters very uniformly in my Lyman 55s and provides excellent accuracy. I've also done well with H4350 and IMR 4350 but the AA4350 has definitely won me over. In this case Dean could only get the IMR so that should do, just a PITA to me to weigh all those charges........However, once he finds a load perhaps his thrower will throw uniform enough charges(?).

Larry Gibson


Ppffffffftttttt!!

If thats my biggest problem, I'd be happy as a tick on a dog. I take no issue with hand weighing charges. It's relaxing to me.

[RickinTN]

I hope the IMR 4350 works so well for you that I hear the screams of joy from my house! I have an 8-pounder of IMR 4350 that I intend to work with in a .308 and an '06 soon, although with a bullet of 180 grains or so.
Good luck,
Rick

[DeanWinchester]

I only have 100pcs of fire formed brass for this rifle. I have quite a bit of brass i could work up though.
I already have those 100 loaded with 4759 & 2400 and i aint gonna tear them down.

Would you wait to try the 4350 or just run it in some full length sized brass? Reason i ask is, i only get to the range once a month. If i wait for and use the formed brass, it'll be another month before i can try them.

[runfiverun]

a handful of resized brass rounds should give you an indication of the loads potential.
leave a donut on the base of the neck if possible to help center the round in the chamber better.
half of the accuracy you get will come from holding the boolit in line with the center of the barrel or as close as you can get.
I have indexed my cases based on a piece of cello-tape being in place on the bottom of the case neck before.

[DeanWinchester]

I hereby formally concede that you guys are smarter/better handloaders/casters than i have capacity to be. I accept defeat. Life is too short.


I started this morning early so I could shoot slowly. Ten rounds, 40.0g of IMR4350 ran just over 2 inches. I might would try this some more since it was only one charge and the first time i ever tried it but there was tons of unburned powder. Whole kernels in the barrel.
Next was 4759. Now i know why this powder was discontinued. Its garbage. Ten rounds each: 18.0,19.0,20.0,21.0 & 22.0 first group was over four inches. As i worked through the first (5)five round groups, it got worse so i ended up just blasting the other half at rocks and dirt clods to be rid of it. That powder is up for trade locally. Jeez!

Next i had (50) rounds loaded with 2400. (10) each @ 17.0,18.0,19.0,20.0 & 21.0
results were on par with what ive been getting. Ten (5) round groups ranging from .75 inches to 3.125 inches NO CONSISTENCY or pattern to the incosistency. Only 18.0g acted like anything, group 1 = 1.06 and group 2=.75
That seems worthy of revisiting but 17.0g & 19.0g were all over the place and nowhere close so I'm calling 18.0g a fluke.

SO! What else did i try?
Fireformed hornday match brass, Win large rifle primer, 46.5g of BL-C2 and a 168g Nosler ballistic tip seated .010 off the rifling. (2) Ten round groups and i did NOT give it time to cool. I just shot the things. How'd they do? How about under an inch for ten rounds on both. First group measured .950 ONLY because (and DONT LAUGH) i had mexican food last night and i was holding back a fart on the last shot and got a flyer as seen at 12 o'clock.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/imagejpg1_zpsa31f84df.jpg


So, far as I'm concerned I'm gonna start buying 168g jacketed bullets and that's all this rifle will get fed. Only accurate rifles are interesting. I think with time and tinkering i can get these groups even tighter.


On a lighter note, i shot some clover leafs with my .454 Handi rifle using a 340g cast boolit. I was VERY pleased. Ive got a .357 mag handi rifle coming tomorrow to keep me occupied. I have also started a little savings jar. My next cast boolit rifle will be a .358 Win and my days of casting for .308 are done.



I wanna thank each and every one of you for your time. I really do appreciate all ya'll's effort to help. I will be the only one on this forum to believe this, but....308 winchester is a jacketed bullet only cartridge. The only .30 caliber casting I'll be doing will be for my buddy's old Ishapore.....maybe.

[waco]

That's a bummer man. My .308 loves SR4759
this is 10 rounds at 50 yards. It wil do sub 1.5" at 100 consestantly

[Larry Gibson]

Ten rounds, 40.0g of IMR4350 ran just over 2 inches. I might would try this some more since it was only one charge and the first time i ever tried it but there was tons of unburned powder. Whole kernels in the barrel.

And you gave up? That was the "start load. My suggestion was to start there and work up in 1/2 gr increments to 46.5 gr. You still have 13 more loads to test. Did we think we were going to hit gold with the first swing of the pick? The 10 shots in just over 2" sounds like a good start to me.

Did you use a Dacron filler (3/4 gr should have been plenty) with the 4759 and 2400?

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Yeah, I've given up. I was going through my data book for this rifle and I'm just about to pass 1K rounds. That's THIS rifle, not the nearly half dozen others before it. The only repeatable grouping has been with stupid jacketed boolits. I said REPEATABLE results, not good results. Something else is going on and I lack the ability to figure it.
I've done my brass prep and seating as best I can. Alignment is good. No shaving or any of the other novice mistakes.
It's just not worth it to me any more. Even if I had the clairvoyance to see that only a few more months and I'd have it, I would be done. I've lost the desire to see it work. I just flat out don't care any more.

It's time to move on. I said I quit a couple months ago but I kept at it. Five years and several rifles is enough. I have had too many successes with other calibers to keep fighting it. 35 remington, 454 casull rifle, .450 marlin, ALL my handguns. Some have taken more work than others but not years worth. I'm really glad you guys can do it. I can't. And now....I won't.

I'm looking heavy at a Browning BLR in .358 Winchester. That's a nice rifle!

Thanks everyone.

[Silverboolit]

Good luck with the BLR, it is a nice rifle. FWIW, IF you want to give the .308 a last go, PM me and I will send you some cast and load data to try. May not work, but you and I have essentially the same rifle. Yours is a Weatherby and mine is a Howa. Same birthplace and maybe very close in build.

[Larry Gibson]

Want to send me that LBT mould to see if I can make it work?

Larry Gibson

[HollowPoint]

Yeah, I've given up. I was going through my data book for this rifle and I'm just about to pass 1K rounds. That's THIS rifle, not the nearly half dozen others before it. The only repeatable grouping has been with stupid jacketed boolits. I said REPEATABLE results, not good results. Something else is going on and I lack the ability to figure it.
I've done my brass prep and seating as best I can. Alignment is good. No shaving or any of the other novice mistakes.
It's just not worth it to me any more. Even if I had the clairvoyance to see that only a few more months and I'd have it, I would be done. I've lost the desire to see it work. I just flat out don't care any more.

It's time to move on. I said I quit a couple months ago but I kept at it. Five years and several rifles is enough. I have had too many successes with other calibers to keep fighting it. 35 remington, 454 casull rifle, .450 marlin, ALL my handguns. Some have taken more work than others but not years worth. I'm really glad you guys can do it. I can't. And now....I won't.

I'm looking heavy at a Browning BLR in .358 Winchester. That's a nice rifle!

Thanks everyone.



I've owned rifles like the one you've been struggling with. And I've spent an inordinate amount of time and money trying to get them to shoot the bullets I wanted them to shoot. Both rifles I'm eluding to would shoot my jacketed reloads with consistent accuracy as long as my bullet weights were 168 grains or over.

My problem was that I wanted my rifles to shoot lighter weight cast lead bullets so I could use them to hunt coyotes.

These rifles simply refused to accurately shoot anything lighter than 168 grain bullets -wether cast or jacketed- with any kind of repeatability.

I eventually gave up also; until it dawned on me that if I tried a cast bullet that weighed the same as the jacketed bullets I was getting good accuracy with, maybe then I'd get the accuracy I was hoping for. Heavy bullets will kill a coyote just as dead as light weight bullets.

I couldn't find a 168 grain bullet mold that didn't cost more than I was willing to pay so I went with one of the cheap Lee heavy weights. I can't remember which one exactly. This was some time ago but, seated on top of the standard 16 grains of 2400 powder, my first time out to the range was a real eye-opener.

Good Lord man, when I think of all the time and money I wasted trying to get my rifles to shoot the bullets I wanted them to shoot instead of the bullets that these rifles were telling me all along that they wanted to shoot, I might still have a full head of hair.

The moral of this story is; my rifles just didn't like the lighter weight bullets.

HollowPoint

[DeanWinchester]

I've run heavy too. The Lyman 311299 was a LOT worse than this. A lot worse. I've seen turkey guns make MUCH better patterns than the 311299 shot.

[nekshot]

when the heat is on and I get real serious about groubs I use a towel and a bucket of cool water. After each shot I place the towel around the barrel for about 2 minutes each time I shoot. I like the results it gives. I want to know how capable the load is for repeatability not for braggin but to give the rifle the ability to be the same for each shot. Might just be essentric but it makes me happy!

[runfiverun]

if the rifle won't shoot 17 grs of 2400 with any decent boolit you are probably smart to give up.
the only other load that will generally beat it is 28.5grs of 4895 with a filler.

[detox]

If your chamber leade measures .311 and you are sizing with a .311 sizer, your bullets are too big because of alloy spring back and maybe causing gas check to be knocked off. Try a smaller .310 sizer and let the bullet and gas check spring back slightly under leade or throat size (-.0005). If your leade measures .311 you need a .3105 diameter bullet and gas check. A micrometer is a must

Try the Lyman 314299 with your soft alloy. The bore ride section will shrink back to about .002 over bore size. Or try using linotype alloy with your smaller 311299 bullet, the lino will shrink less and will help make bore ride section slightly larger (needs to be about .302 SNUG). You may have to crimp bullet behind front drive band to prevent movement during chambering.

Do your gas checks snap on easily without shaving? I like using a modified lee punch (concave end). Or sizing bullets upside down in my RCBS Lubamatic with hollow nose punch of same caliber. I size bullets dry with no lube. Then hand dip bullet bands in thinned alox (mineral spirits) and allowing to dry on wax paper over night (resting on their bases).

Raised sprue cuts will prevent gas check from seating fully when using flat faced punch. I cut my sprues with gloved hand and putting downward pressure on sprue plate while opening. This leaves cut flush with bottom of bullet.

4759 is my go to powder for the 308...give it to me.

[tomme boy]

:not listening:

[odicoilius]

IMHO you are fighting a losing battle, trying to make the rifle shoot a bullet it simply doesn't like, no matter how well made. Most .308s seem to like a bullet of 160 to 200 grains, in my experience, and there are more than one rifle (not just in .308) that you can't exceed 2000fps with cast. Who knows why, may be rough bore, inconsistent bore diameter worn/ oversize throat, etc etc. I have an old win mod. 670 with a very rough/ pitted bore that shoots the "cheapo" 180 Lee into 1.5" @ 100 with 31 grains IMR 3031 why who knows? Don't give up! 308 Win. is one of the best with cast as many have found. Larry g. is right, 4350 works great with heavier loads, this same rifle will put 10 rounds in 2.5" @ 100 with 40 gr IMR 4350 and a Lyman 311290(210 grain) or a Lee 200 grain. Not benchrest accuracy , sure, but great for deer -- velocity 1900-1950 fps. Odicoilius.

[HangFireW8]

I'm thinking it could be a bedding or scope issue that reacts to higher energy loads consistently and lower energy loads less consistently.

[Ido356]

I read this thread because im wanting to try casting for my 308.
DeanWinchester, you seam to have tried everything with no improvement, yet the one constant was the 311 sized boolit, just a thought.

[DeanWinchester]

I read this thread because im wanting to try casting for my 308.
DeanWinchester, you seam to have tried everything with no improvement, yet the one constant was the 311 sized boolit, just a thought.

Not true, I HAVE tried sizing .309 but saw faint traces of leading in just a few rounds so I quickly hung that up.

[runfiverun]

you didn't size down the ones I sent you I hope.
the angles are so sensitive I have to maintain mold and alloy temp within a very narrow window or I destroy the boolits when scuff sizing.
anything that gets actually sized is immediately rejected, as it wipes the front band angles off and I lose the reason for it being there.

[DeanWinchester]

No, it was the Lee 155g boolit i was running.

[sfcairborne]

I know this is slower than your loading but 11.5 grns unique with the rcbs 173grn mold 50/50 lead with gas check, throws damn near a sigle hole 3 shot group at 50 yds, with my Rem 700 308. Round is seated 20 thou off lands. sized .310