45-70 blackpowder load data

[bajaretired]

I have been shooting my Marlin 1895 and Sharps replica for some time now using smokeless powders. I would like to try some blackpowder loads using Triple 7 and/or Pyrodex RS (blackpowder is impossible to get in my area). Can anyone give me some ideas on load data? I have three cast bullets I would like to use. A 500gr, 405gr and 300gr.

[Don McDowell]

Blackpowder loads are pretty simple 70 grs of 2f with just about whatever bullet you choose. For the triple 7 and Pyrodex, you should probably refer to Hogdons on those substitute powders.

[BruceB]

Although I've used Holy Black in single-shot rifles, I'm wondering about the possible complications of blackpowder in lever rifles and other types with more "nooks and crannies" for the fouling to hide itself within.

How rigorous do the cleaning methods have to be in order to avoid potential rust and corrosion problems?

[Don McDowell]

You're not going to get away from any corrosion problems (either real or mostly imagined) by going with the subs... Read the instructions folks, they all say to clean the gun as soon as possible after shooting...

[Bent Ramrod]

For the most part, that brass cartridge case will save you a lot of the more onerous aspects of the cleanup. 10% Ballistol/water in patches in the bore until it is clean, wipe the outside barrel and action surfaces you can reach with Ballistol/water on a rag or Q-tip. Run a couple patches of straight Ballistol down the bore, wipe the outside and as much of the inside as you can with straight Ballistol on a rag. Spray some Ballistol into the action crevices if you are really worried.

The 74 Sharps is easy to take apart for cleaning, and the breech bolts and cartridge lifters of most leverguns can be removed for cleaning without taking the whole rifle apart. After the above treatment, once a year remove these major action parts and wipe them down with Ballistol/water and pure Ballistol. There may or may not be some black grunge in the nooks and crannies, but the Ballistol will stabilize it so there will be no rust.

Mostly I use actual black powder in cartridge guns. I've treated cap and ball pistols fired with Pyrodex in much the same manner as above and have seen no rusting problems so far. I unscrew and clean the nipple threads, just in case, but the lockwork only gets cleaned once a year or so.

[John Boy]

I'm wondering about the possible complications of blackpowder in lever rifles and other types with more "nooks and crannies" for the fouling to hide itself withinAn example: Rossi '92 - 45 Colt BP reloads - 100 avg rounds shot monthly for Cowboy Action ... Eezox, normal bore cleaning, lifter and bolt cleaned with a shop swab. Probably in excess of 15,000 down the bore. Been field stripped and cleaned twice. No rust, no broken parts and no hiccup malfunctions cleaning it as I do

Revolvers cleaned in same manner as rifles with Eezox. Cartridge revolvers cleaned with Eezox, maybe 8,000 plus BP rounds - field stripped once. Cap & ball revolvers, about 7,000 rounds - put barrel and cylinders in ultrasonic cleaner after every match, shop swab for receiver and hand - Eezox squirt in the hammer & trigger assembly ... never been field stripped. The foul in the rifles & revolvers is primarily blowback

[Nobade]

If you anneal your cases and use full loads, the only fouling will be in the bore. Both those rifles clean from the breech end so it's really not an issue. As for corrosion, Pyrodex is some kind of corrosive stuff. Clean once, clean again, and clean again next week and keep everything wet with oil. T7 isn't as bad but still I follow the same rules. Real BP is not a problem, it in itself isn't corrosive. But it will draw moisture which sure is corrosive. So either clean it or at least keep it wet with oil and you'll never have a problem. Like John Boy above, I use a Browning '92 every month in competition and have never had to detail strip it. I clean the bore, and keep the action wet with Ballistol. Never had a bit of problems with it. But I only use real BP, never those nasty substitutes. Marlin 1895 is the same way, I take the bolt out to clean the bore but never had to strip it down. BTW, where are you located that you can't get real BP? If you are in the USA and UPS comes to your location you can get real BP. If your handle means Baja California, that certainly would be a different matter but guns are tough to have there either...

-Nobade

[BruceB]

Gentlemen, thank you kindly. The information you've posted is exactly what I was looking for.

My blackpowder guns are pretty limited right now; I have a Walker Colt (as sold by Colt themselves back in the '70s or '80s), a Shiloh '74 in .45-70, and a very nice M1884 Trapdoor rifle..... which I have yet to shoot. That will change shortly, once I cast some LEE 405 HB bullets next Monday at NVCurmudgeon's hacienda.

My intention is to use Holy Black, none of them new-fangled substitutes. I have eight pounds or so of FFg on hand so should be good for a little while. (Also some 3f for the Walker.)

Midway has Ballistol, both in liquid and aerosol.... which is better? Eezox doesn't appear in their catalog.

Whenever I see one of the blackpowder lever guns, my heart rate seems to speed up.... as if I "need" more guns! However, I was wondering about cleaning complications, if any, and you have now put my questions to rest.

[Nobade]

The liquid is great for wetting wiping patches, and is a lot cheaper. The spray is good for spraying into actions and other spaces. I use both, suppose you could put the liquid in a spray bottle and have the best of both?

Mix it 10:1 water/oil and it works great for wiping the bore too. And the "unique" smell is so enduring.

-Nobade

[country gent]

I use the ballistol mixed 20-1 with water I mix it and put in a trigger spray bottle, set on stream or close its good for wetting patches or spraying out areas. quick simple and affordable.

[John Boy]

If one is enamored with Ballistol, why not just go the hardware store and buy a can of mineral oil which is the primary ingredient in Ballistol
Another test: Is Ballistol a Good Rust Preventative, Fact or Fiction
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9308.msg63319

Eezox ... http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/pl-eezox.html

[Nobade]

......But it doesn't smell as interesting!

-Nobade

[NileCitySlick]

All good advice from everyone. BP is easier on the gun than subs and it's easier to clean. Eezox is great and I use it for smokeless plus the bores stay rust free for a long time. My 45-75 lever gun is simple to clean after shooting BP. I clean with Moose milk patches - 10:1 water to Ballistol. Timely cleaning after BP is important. Sooner after subs they rust steel quickly. If I put a gun up for a while, I patch the bore and wipe down with Eezox. You will like 405HB in that rifle with BP.

['74 sharps]

If one is enamored with Ballistol, why not just go the hardware store and buy a can of mineral oil which is the primary ingredient in Ballistol
Another test: Is Ballistol a Good Rust Preventative, Fact or Fiction
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9308.msg63319

Eezox ... http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/pl-eezox.html

Ballistol has an additive which allows it to blend with water. Mineral oil by itself will not blend with water. Have heard that tool cutting oil works quite well as a bp cleaner.

[Don McDowell]

Napa water soluble cutting oil works excellent for bp cleaning, when mixed 1 part oil to 7 parts water.

[jednorris]

I have been shooting my Marlin 1895 and Sharps replica for some time now using smokeless powders. I would like to try some blackpowder loads using Triple 7 and/or Pyrodex RS (blackpowder is impossible to get in my area). Can anyone give me some ideas on load data? I have three cast bullets I would like to use. A 500gr, 405gr and 300gr.

I started using Jim Shockey Gold in my .40/65 with good results and I laodaed up about 50. About two months later I went to shoot them and they were all over the place. I went to load some more and the powder in the container was as hard as a rock. I pulled some bullets and sure enough the loaded ammo was also solidified. I contacted Shockey and apparently the powder has a tendency to do that with age. I had a hell of a time getting the compacted powder out of the cases, and now shoot Goex F.F.F.G without problem.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Black powder cleaner: works on real black or pyrodex
25% windex w/ammonia
25% murphys oil soap spray
25% prestone antifreeze
25% water

[Lumpy grits]

Windex Multi-surface, w/Vinegar does BP clean'n the best.......
Avoid ammonia!
LG

[13Echo]

I strongly agree with Lumpy!

Windex with ammonia, or any ammonia containing product may potentiate the rusting effects of BP or BP subs. BP fouling is basic and is best cleaned with neutral or very mildly acidic cleaners like dilute vinegar (Windex with Vinegar) which will tend to neutralize the fouling.

The best single substance BP solvent available is water. A touch of vinegar is helpful. A water soluble oil (NAPA or Ballistol) doesn't hurt, but not so much it interferes with the solvent properties of water. Punch the tube with wet patches, followed by dry, followed by a water displacing oil if the bore is rough, followed by a decent oil. That's all that is required.

Jerry Liles

[Toymaker]

Clean, then mask the wood by putting it in a plastic bag and seal it with tape. Then give the action a blast of carburetor cleaner. Whistle. Just in case I lubricate with TriFlo. Something about it will tie up the corrosive salts AND it provides a nice lubricating barrier. You'll find it in a bicycle shop as they use it to clean and lubricate chains. Good stuff.

[Paul_R]

My BP cleanup:

Hot soapy water down the bore. Brush with hot soapy water. Hot water rinse & patch dry. Clean and coat with Eezox, easiest step of all since the soap and water already got about 99% of everything. Done.

Not only is Eezox the best corrosion protection ever devised, it's also an excellent solvent/cleaner and doesn't smell half bad. Who knew?

[cricco]

I simply clean with hot water, and then hose it all down with a spray can of Remoil

[jednorris]

I think everybody at one time or another has tried Triple 7 or Pyrodex or B.P. Cartridge guns. I think all of them found it a bad idea. Either go black Powder like the gun was designed for, or smokeless.

[mack2]

This is all good advice, I would add stay away from anything petroleum based. Petroleum seems to make a tar that is hard to clean off and holds moisture. I think this is where the hard to clean and very corrosive comes from with black powder.
When loading BP for a repeater start by deciding how many shots you want to fire accurately between cleanings. Fairly impressive velocity and accuracy is not too difficult if cleaning every shot but to keep accuracy for 15 to 20 shots is another thing.

[Swineherd]

Hot water washes and neutralizes the fouling. Dry patches to dry the gun. Oil to protect after. I use mineral oil. It's inexpensive, non toxic, doesn't hurt the furniture and doesn't turn to tar with BP like petroleum oils. I've never personally had any problems with triple 7 or pyrodex in a cartridge, but I've always made sure to meticulously clean the gun and brass afterward. Blackpowder is pretty forgiving, you can drench the fouling in oil for long periods without cleaning the gun. Don't know how long, but I've done it for at least 3 month stretches and had no corrosion to show for it. Not that I'm proud of my negligence, but figured I'd share what I learned from it.

[country gent]

with black powder a good lube and enough to keep the fouling soft and "greasy" helps a lot.
At the range windex or similar to wipe quick clean, then at home ballistol 10-1 with water. If any leading then shooters choice finish with light oil down.

[Gray Fox]

I don't know if it is critical, but Mike Venturino always wrote to only use Windex that has vinegar, not ammonia with BP. It has served me well with Pyrodex-loaded cartridges, too. I empty a bottle of it in a gallon jug, fill it 3/4 of the way with water, and just drop the fired cartridges into the jug while at the range. I usually let it sit overnight, dump it outside, then fill with warm water and shake the jug a bit. If it's reasonable weather, I lay the cases out on paper outside (inside if it's not) and let them air dry, then process them as I normally would for the caliber, however, I usually brush out .45-70 and .45-110 with a nylon bore brush to get any residue. GF

[hpbear101]

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/cowboy-action1-1.pdf

Page 3 has 45-70 load data for their Triple 7.

I use BP, and I also like Triple 7 as well. It has a little more energy than BP works great in my 50-95 and 43 Mauser.

Tom

[elmacgyver0]

I have never seen the need to shoot black powder out of anything except muzzle loaders and perhaps old guns that were made before smokeless, just me.
Don't get me wrong, I do like black powder.
It doesn't take long to screw up a gun with it if you forget to clean it.
At my age forgetting is easier than remembering.

[Swineherd]

What's "need" got to do with anything?

[indian joe]

What's "need" got to do with anything?

exactly nothing !!!!!!!

[elmacgyver0]

Whatever, it's just not for me.

[Dave H]

I shoot my Shilo sharps 45-70 in a 300 yard open sight competition, there is a guy that has a whole shop dedicated to black powder and flintlocks I use his bore cleaner and his bullet lube I shoot 25 shots at a meet and his stuff works I'm looking at a target I shot at one hundred yards under glass at my desk that is 5 shots less than one inch. I used to shoot 1,000 yard comp and I have target I saved, ten shot 5 inch group .200 thousand off dead center missed the world record by 2 inches.

[Chill Wills]

I shoot my Shilo sharps 45-70 in a 300 yard open sight competition,
I used to shoot 1,000 yard comp and I have target I saved, ten shot 5 inch group .200 thousand off dead center missed the world record by 2 inches.

Hi, I am assuming the 1000yd info was shooting modern rifles. But, me assuming can be a mistake.

[Pilgrim1]

I have some gold loads for 45-70 using a BACO dual diameter paper patched bullet but all loads are for black powder. I recommend that you bite the bullet and order 5 pounds of black powder and start a journey you will enjoy for a long time.