bedbugbilly
07-19-2014, 10:15 AM
Since this is the Black Powder Cartridge forum, I’m posting this here in the hopes that someone can possibly provide me more information about some antique BP cartridges that I have. I have been able to find some information but would like to know more.
History Of These Cartridges
In 1965, after the death of my grandparents, we had the task of going through their things in preparation to an auction. In the attic fo the garage, I came across an old wood box with a leather hinged lid that at one time, had been a shipping box for axes many years ago. This box contained a number of items including these cartridges, three “clay Irish clay pipes”, some old hand tools, etc. From the contents, it was evident that this box had obviously been brought from the family farm to a house in town when my great-grandparents moved in 1895. Bot of my great-grandparents were Irish immigrants from Northern Ireland. My great-grandfather was born in 1830 – his youngest sone, my grandfather, was born in 1867. All of these cartridges would fall in to the time frame of when my great-grandfather was on the family farm and raising his kids. He and my great-grandmother had twelve children, nie of which lived to maturity.
Although I had a cartridge collection when I was a kid, I sold it about ten years ago but hung on to these as they had come from the family.
I have labeled them A, B, C and D – four different types of cartridges. I took measurements of each with my digital calipers and have tried to be accurate in the measurements, but some may be off from what they would normally be when the cartridge was new due to wear, etc. Hopefully, they are close enough so that a person can identify the ones that I am not sure of.
Thanks for any help and information anybody can provide!
CARTRIDGES
A. 38 caliber rimfire “Long” (I have 16 of these)
Cartridge Overall Length – 1.387
Bullet Diameter - .378
Casing Diameter (straight sided casing) - .378
Casing Length - .860
Casing Material – Copper
Casing Head Stamp – “U”
From what I have been able to find, these are 38 Rimfire “Long”. These were made from about 1870 – 1890s. The “U” head stamp indicates “Union Metallic Cartridge Co.”. I tried these in the cylinder of my Smith & Wesson M & P 38 Spl. And they were a perfect fit in regards to the diameter but shorter than a 38 Spl. Cartridge. It’s my understanding these 38 rim fire cartridges came in three lengths – short, long and extra long. They were utilized in both rifle and pistol.
Is the above information correct? Any additional information?
B. .44 Henry Cartridge
Cartridge Overall Length – 1.497
Bullet Diameter - .438
Casing Diameter - .435
Casing Length - .950
Casing Material – Copper
Casing Head Stamp – “H”
This cartridge has a “flat nose” bullet. The casing is straight sided. From what I am finding, it is a .44 Henry cartridge and they were made with a Round Nose and a Flat Point bullet.
Is the above information correct? Any additional information? From my reading, the .44 Henry cartridge was produced up until the 1930s but by that time, the casings were changed to brass. Can anyone tell me when these cartridges “transformed” from copper casings to brass? I know they were made for the 1866 Winchester and that the 1872 Colt Open Top Revolver was also chambered for them.
C. Unidentified Cartridge – Rim Fire / Bottleneck
Cartridge Overall Length – 1.620
Bullet Diameter - .462
Casing Neck Diameter - .499
Casing Base Diameter - .560
Casing Length – 1.062
Casing Material – Copper
Casing Head Stamp – Plain – No Head Stamp
Casing Style – “Bottleneck”
I have been unable to find anything on this cartridge. It is not in the best of shape. The casing has been damaged. It looks like someone gripped it with pliers at one time – possibly to pull the bullet and salvage the powder? (My grandfather had and used a muzzle-loading .45 “Plains Style” rifle into the early 1900s.) The casing has no markings. I tried to take accurate measurements but due to the case damage, etc. – they may be off somewhat. It would appear to me to be a 50 caliber “heeled” bullet ???? with a 56 caliber base? I’m hoping someone can shed some light on just what this cartridge is and what it was used in.
D. Unidentified Rim Fire Cartridge
Cartridge Overall Length - .990
Bullet Diameter - .285
Casing Diameter (straight case) - .290
Casing Length - .675
Casing Material – Copper
Casing Head Stamp – “P” in a circle
I have not been able to find out what this cartridge is. From the Head Stamp (“P” in circle), I did find that it was made by the “Phoenix Metallic Cartridge Co. of CT” which was in business from 1871 to 1878 when it was purchased by the “American Ammunition Co.”. It’s an assumption on my part that this was probably a cartridge for a “pocket pistol” and/or a rifle as well?
I greatly appreciate any help and information any of you can provide on these. I have had these tucked away for many years and am planning on putting them in a display case in my office where I can enjoy them.
Thank you!
History Of These Cartridges
In 1965, after the death of my grandparents, we had the task of going through their things in preparation to an auction. In the attic fo the garage, I came across an old wood box with a leather hinged lid that at one time, had been a shipping box for axes many years ago. This box contained a number of items including these cartridges, three “clay Irish clay pipes”, some old hand tools, etc. From the contents, it was evident that this box had obviously been brought from the family farm to a house in town when my great-grandparents moved in 1895. Bot of my great-grandparents were Irish immigrants from Northern Ireland. My great-grandfather was born in 1830 – his youngest sone, my grandfather, was born in 1867. All of these cartridges would fall in to the time frame of when my great-grandfather was on the family farm and raising his kids. He and my great-grandmother had twelve children, nie of which lived to maturity.
Although I had a cartridge collection when I was a kid, I sold it about ten years ago but hung on to these as they had come from the family.
I have labeled them A, B, C and D – four different types of cartridges. I took measurements of each with my digital calipers and have tried to be accurate in the measurements, but some may be off from what they would normally be when the cartridge was new due to wear, etc. Hopefully, they are close enough so that a person can identify the ones that I am not sure of.
Thanks for any help and information anybody can provide!
CARTRIDGES
A. 38 caliber rimfire “Long” (I have 16 of these)
Cartridge Overall Length – 1.387
Bullet Diameter - .378
Casing Diameter (straight sided casing) - .378
Casing Length - .860
Casing Material – Copper
Casing Head Stamp – “U”
From what I have been able to find, these are 38 Rimfire “Long”. These were made from about 1870 – 1890s. The “U” head stamp indicates “Union Metallic Cartridge Co.”. I tried these in the cylinder of my Smith & Wesson M & P 38 Spl. And they were a perfect fit in regards to the diameter but shorter than a 38 Spl. Cartridge. It’s my understanding these 38 rim fire cartridges came in three lengths – short, long and extra long. They were utilized in both rifle and pistol.
Is the above information correct? Any additional information?
B. .44 Henry Cartridge
Cartridge Overall Length – 1.497
Bullet Diameter - .438
Casing Diameter - .435
Casing Length - .950
Casing Material – Copper
Casing Head Stamp – “H”
This cartridge has a “flat nose” bullet. The casing is straight sided. From what I am finding, it is a .44 Henry cartridge and they were made with a Round Nose and a Flat Point bullet.
Is the above information correct? Any additional information? From my reading, the .44 Henry cartridge was produced up until the 1930s but by that time, the casings were changed to brass. Can anyone tell me when these cartridges “transformed” from copper casings to brass? I know they were made for the 1866 Winchester and that the 1872 Colt Open Top Revolver was also chambered for them.
C. Unidentified Cartridge – Rim Fire / Bottleneck
Cartridge Overall Length – 1.620
Bullet Diameter - .462
Casing Neck Diameter - .499
Casing Base Diameter - .560
Casing Length – 1.062
Casing Material – Copper
Casing Head Stamp – Plain – No Head Stamp
Casing Style – “Bottleneck”
I have been unable to find anything on this cartridge. It is not in the best of shape. The casing has been damaged. It looks like someone gripped it with pliers at one time – possibly to pull the bullet and salvage the powder? (My grandfather had and used a muzzle-loading .45 “Plains Style” rifle into the early 1900s.) The casing has no markings. I tried to take accurate measurements but due to the case damage, etc. – they may be off somewhat. It would appear to me to be a 50 caliber “heeled” bullet ???? with a 56 caliber base? I’m hoping someone can shed some light on just what this cartridge is and what it was used in.
D. Unidentified Rim Fire Cartridge
Cartridge Overall Length - .990
Bullet Diameter - .285
Casing Diameter (straight case) - .290
Casing Length - .675
Casing Material – Copper
Casing Head Stamp – “P” in a circle
I have not been able to find out what this cartridge is. From the Head Stamp (“P” in circle), I did find that it was made by the “Phoenix Metallic Cartridge Co. of CT” which was in business from 1871 to 1878 when it was purchased by the “American Ammunition Co.”. It’s an assumption on my part that this was probably a cartridge for a “pocket pistol” and/or a rifle as well?
I greatly appreciate any help and information any of you can provide on these. I have had these tucked away for many years and am planning on putting them in a display case in my office where I can enjoy them.
Thank you!