for you machinists

[lunicy]

Quick question. I have a small lathe from a previous career. But I am a novice at best. How do you make a percision hole with a "shaped" bottom. (Think in terms of a point forming die for the swaging press. thanks

[Swagerman]

Hello, are you asking about nose punches with either a SWC or RNFP type nose former?

Its about the only thing I can make on my little mini-lathe, at best the end results are workable but not precise in quality.

My take on it has been you'll need a nose punch blank that is round in diameter and will fit your swaging die to travel up and down inside it.

Then tool grinding comes into play, you have to make a nose cutter bit that will cut the nose shape you require. That is, you'll need one that can cut the desired shape and depth the bullet is expected to be conformed to.

The round nose blank is placed in your lathe chuck, the tool cutter bit is placed in your tool post stand...usually straight on towards the lathe chuck.

Will try and show some pictures that may help.

Jim

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P5110019good771X.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/PC190006Bothbottombarscloseup.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P2280024punchescropped.jpg

In this last photo I show Herter's shell holders with nose punch stems sized to fit through the primer drop hole, a threaded shaft and nut holds things together. The Herter's give me good concentric in swaging.

Contact me by email if you want more photos of the cutter bits.

Jim

[Bent Ramrod]

As I understand it, you make a template up for the ogive shape you want. You then make a tool-steel D-bit of the same shape and use it for a reamer after you have roughed out the die with drills or boring tools. The final reamed hole should be a little too small. You then harden the die and draw it slightly. You also make a brass rod up of the same shape and coat it with diamond paste. You spin the die and polish the inside with the brass rod until the inside of the cavity is smooth and just the right size. Smooth not only means a nice finish, it means the geometry is such that the bullet pops easily out of the die after swaging.

How you do those last operations is the way my shop teacher advised a student, who described a complicated bunch of setups and cuts and said "How do I do that?"

"With great skill, I would hope," the teacher replied.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/A7FCD0C7C32B712/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/FBC4A50229228CB/standard.jpg

Easiest way I know of is to grind a spoon. In this case similar to what Bent Ramrod was talking about.

http://www.fototime.com/129DCEECEED65CD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/CFC43FFAA50298D/standard.jpg

On the left the spoon is being fed. If you look atthe closeup of the tool in the top right photo you'll notice it has no back or side rake. Think of it more as a scraping tool more then cutting. Your DOC's MUST be of only a couple thousandths to preclude chatter. The edge is more acute then 90* for clearance, yet the top of the spoon meets the work at a 90* angle (hense more scrapping then cutting).

As you can see in the bottom right photo, the metal removed is very fine, and almost a mush. The spoon is a finishing tool and the vast majority of the metal removed must be done via drill bit, reamer, then boring and finishing up with the spoon. The spoon if sharp can produce an almost reflective finish in free (or free-ER) machining steels with very little polishing required.

http://www.fototime.com/6DD15BDBE5D31B1/standard.jpg

The cavity and ogive in the swage die used to produce these slugs was fully cut with a spoon, as pictured, and only a small amount of polishing was needed to produce this finish. In this instance, since there was a smooth transition from the side to the ogive of the boolit, the spoon was cutting on it's heel also, and not just the curved area.

Hopefully this is what you were wanting :-)

...................Buckshot

[Swagerman]

Rick, very good pictures of the cutter bits and the head on approach of cutters into the stock to be cut.

That is the way of it for sure...wish I had all those bits, wish I had that lathe. Wish I had your experience. :)

Jim

[lunicy]

I am humbled. I'm just an idiot with a lathe. You guys are machinists.

[JIMinPHX]

If you grind your “spoon” with a pilot diameter at the heal that can pick up the bore with one or two thousandths of clearance, & use some heavy oil when cutting, you can substantially reduce the amount of chatter that a broad contact tool like that will want to generate on a small lathe.

[Swagerman]

Hey, I must be doing something wrong...I don't get tool chatter when using my cutter bits.

Mine are ground from 3/8 or 1/4 inch square stock. No one showed me how to grind tools this way, but it seems to work so far.

I guess I should try some round stock to make cutter bits...or, just buy some already made. Only thing is, there's no supply store locally to buy stuff like that, and its all mail order.

Jim

[JIMinPHX]

Hey, I must be doing something wrong...I don't get tool chatter when using my cutter bits.

Jim

The machinery gods must be smiling upon you.

[Buckshot]

............lunicy. Thanks, but I'm not a real machinist either. I'm just a guy with a lathe. I spent a lot of time on the Practical Machinist and Home Shop Machinist forums, and I've bought and read some books. I haven't made any mistakes yet, but I do have a lot of spare parts for stuff that hasn't been invented yet.

A lot of machining is common sense and remembering it's all made out of rubber. Nothing much new has been added since 1900 to manual machining with 2 exceptions. One is the easy availability of cheap high speed steel tools, and also carbide tools. Your great grandpa would recognize and be able to run your manual machine.

I've only had my lathe for a bit over 4 years now. The best teacher is doing, whether that 'doing' is actually making something or just experimenting with speeds, feeds, and depths of cut.

.............Swagerman Hey, I must be doing something wrong...I don't get tool chatter when using my cutter bits.

Like JIMinPHX said, "The machinery gods must be smiling on you", or you're not removing much metal.

Mine are ground from 3/8 or 1/4 inch square stock. No one showed me how to grind tools this way, but it seems to work so far.

I guess I should try some round stock to make cutter bits...or, just buy some already made. Only thing is, there's no supply store locally to buy stuff like that, and its all mail order.

I like MSC or ENCO, and yes they're mail order. I have a machinery supply place about 10 miles away. I don't go there as I don't like getting beatup. I don't think they like me coming in, but prefer the multi-thousand dollar orders. I can get a gallon of way lube from ENCO for $14 but my local machine store wants $28. Exactly twice the price, and everything else is similar.

What I like about ENCO is that they usually have promotions where they offer a free shipping code on orders over $50 or $100. And it sure is easy to put an order together to beat those minimums :-)

..............Buckshot

[Swagerman]

Heh heh, anyone who uses a Chi-com mini-lathe is not going to remove a lot of metal very fast in his process.

At least that's been my impractical experience so far. I'm resigned to turning a bit slower than you gents with the big machines.

You need a big lathe to hog it down any faster....you lathe hogs. :mrgreen:

Seriously, you need something with a bigger chuck than a piss-ass mini-lathe to hold your stock in place, the through hole has to be bigger too.

A man has got to know his limitations if he uses the cheap stuff to make a few doo dads. :)

But I'm having fun doing what I do, doing it the best I can with what I've got.

Jim

[redneckdan]

I wish I had video of the R&D torture testing I did this summer, while designing a rotary cutting tool. You haven't seen chatter till ya get a Multi-Turn 2000 dancing across the floor.:shock:

[floodgate]

Someone ought to collect Buckshot's posts over the past four years and compile a CD on "How to Become a Machinist"; it would be a very useful reference, right up there with the old 1942 South Bend book, "How to Run a Lathe", and Guy Lautard's "Machinists' Bedside Reader" series.

One thing an old-timer told me,'way back at the beginning, and something I'm reminded of everytime I look at a project: "There ain't only one way to set up a job." Maybe the most important single piece of advice I've even gotten.

floodgate

[jhrosier]

FWIW, Micro-Mark has the 7x14 mini lathe on sale this week.
It is marked down from $619.95 to $519.95, Plus shipping ($80 to me).
It has gotten good reviews.
I have been wanting one for a while and the extra couple of inches of Z travel can't hurt so I just ordered one up.

Jack

[Buckshot]

................For a couple hundred more you can catch the 9x19" machines on sale. In fact it was either MSC or ENCO who had them in November I think it was, for $800 something plus free shipping. A whole nuther machine. Someone I saw had a 10x26 benchlathe with a 1" spindle hole and a QC box for just over a grand.

There is a member here who lives down toward San Diego with an Atlas 12x36 machine (QC box, on a cabinet with underdrive) and some tooling, but you'd have to pick it up.

................Buckshot

[JIMinPHX]

There is a member here who lives down toward San Diego with an Atlas 12x36 machine (QC box, on a cabinet with underdrive) and some tooling, but you'd have to pick it up.

................Buckshot

Atlas is a good machine.

[PatMarlin]

Great work and pics from all here. Those cutters look medieval Rick... :mrgreen:

[georgeld]

don't know for sure the capacity, but, son had a harbor freight junker lathe/mill come in on trade for some mechanic work and as I used to be a machinist in the 60's I talked him out of it.

Something like: 10" x 24". It's sorry as hell for quality, won't hold tolerance on larger cuts. but, sure beats not having anything like I've been doing for years. Am turning out some rather intricate items, but, there's no such thing as "a pair" of anything.

Have made a couple reloading die's, and sets of necking down bushings to fit a Lee collet die to neck down 5.7 case's to .17 cal. You bet, there was some scraped parts, but, most were just "recycled" to larger bore's. Ended up with a 7 pcs set of bushings from half inch down to a .191". I use the .196" bushing to neck size fired .17's and it has good neck tension. Though am wishing I had a way to drill it out to .195" for a bit tighter as sometimes with extra finger push I can move a bullet into the case.

Had a guy send me a "spoon cut" chamber reamer much like Buckshots radius tools shown above. This reamer was turned on a lathe to exact size, then milled flat to the halfway point. THen heat treated to an almost brittle stage and honed to a sharp edge. It's for final truing on the chamber bore after drilling out with regular drill bits. It worked great to make dies with.

[quasi]

Buckshot, a lot of machinist's could not make the stuff you do. Most of your creations shown on Cast Boolits is tool and die making, and very well done.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, a lot of machinist's could not make the stuff you do. Most of your creations shown on Cast Boolits is tool and die making, and very well done.

..............quasi, you're too kind, but I appreciate it anyway. You notice I haven't posted a photo of the "I can make something else out of this later" box, where oddities and whoopsies reside?


georgeld, "Had a guy send me a "spoon cut" chamber reamer much like Buckshots radius tools shown above. This reamer was turned on a lathe to exact size, then milled flat to the halfway point. THen heat treated to an almost brittle stage and honed to a sharp edge."

...............That's a one flute, scraper, form, or 'D' reamer. 'D' because if you look at it straight on, it looks like a D, flat side up. And yes, usually as hard as glass. A VERY slow feed, plenty of oil and retracted often to clear chips.

Re: The lathe. Any lathe is better then no lathe. I started making stuff with a 3/8" VSR drill motor clamped in the bench vise :-)

..................Buckshot

[georgeld]

Buckshot:
yep, that's it.
I learned the hardway when something interupted me when chambering one with it. Had been cutting it turning the chuck by hand on the belt. When I came back out all strung out. Shot some oil in it and turned it on. two seconds later it as smoked up. Temper was gone. don't think it was right to start with as it kept dulling.

But, with a cutting torch and bucket of cold water it's like glass now, maybe not quite that hard. but, it doe's hold an edge now.

Back when I was a kid, Dad sent me to a rancher where we hunted elk. Bad influence because he got me to poaching elk with him every summer. But, I sure learned a bucnh about making things with little in the way of tools other than a hand cranked coal fired forge. Of course I was the 'cranker" many a shift. We not only made a bunch of rock drills for dynamite drilling with single and double jacks. But, a 4" wide, half inch thick, 4ft dia "iron tired wagon" for hauling pole's out of the woods. I cranked for hours on that forge while he hammered it into rings. THEN hammered the welds together as neither of us could arc weld then, and he didn't own a torch. Oh man what we could have done so much easier with the tools I've got now.

IF I had half the money he left to the local dog pound when he died I'd have a bunch of fine machine's in this dandy shop I've built with salvage bricks and steel.

Buck, you mention 'left over box" hehe! I've got two "stantions' under my bench 2'x40" full of 'shorts', 18-48" filled up. Plus another half full of shorter pcs than that. The long stuff, full 20' much of it on a rack above that was so over loaded I had to weld legs on the arms as it started to bend down. Three rack/shelve's about 3' wide and foot deep with steel. There has to be $10,-15,000 worth up there.

Everytime I went after steel, I 'd get a few lengths of "other stuff" for 'stock".
IT's too bad I've torn my back up now that I have the shop and stocked up decently. Maybe the next guy will get some good out of it and all the tools from a lifetime of 'gathering'.

[Rayber]

Wow!!! I've missed this section of the forum before I signed up. What a find.
When is big too big. I haven't used a lathe in 35 years and only a few times then. Now I need one for a some gunsmith chores I'll get into in the forum later. I can get help with learning the lathe, that shouldn't be a problem (I hope)
When is big too big??????
I have a chance to get an older lath thats in really good shape. It's covered with dust from being in a wood shop and covered in oil but NO rust at all. The guys wants less then the made in Chine machines at Harbor Freight. It's a LaBlond17 with a 3jaw and 4 jaw Chuck. It has a new 5hp motor on it. It weighs more then 1000 lbs...he's guessing, but I can move it.
He's 30 minutes form my house. I can't even put it in my shop because I have a wood floor. I can put it in a friends garage and he will use it also. I really want this big old machine. I have several small projects. I have to drill and ream a sizing die for a wildcat project I started in 1975. I finally have the time and ALL the parts.
You guys are doing this small detailed work so I thought I'd ask your opinions.
Thanks
Ray

[Jon K]

Rayber,

BUY IT!!!, Good lathe, Nothing you can't do with that, for gunwork. If you pass on it you'll regret it for years to come. And whatever you do, don't buy an underpowered machine and try to overwork it, trying to make due. Spent countless hours on them, made to last, and reliable as they come.

Jon

[PatMarlin]

I passed on a great lathe deal once.. :roll:

[oneokie]

Buy it and never look back.

[Buckshot]

When is big too big. It's a LaBlond17 with a 3jaw and 4 jaw Chuck. It has a new 5hp motor on it. It weighs more then 1000 lbs...he's guessing, but I can move it.
I really want this big old machine. I have several small projects.
Ray

.............Weighs more then 1000 lbs!? :-) My 11x36 Logan weighs 1100 lbs so that 17" LeBlond weighs at least 3,000 lbs and proably a bit more depending on the length of it's bed. How much less then a "China" machine is he wanting? Whatever it cost, be prepared to pay that much and more to get it tooled up if it doesn't already come with a bunch.

Does it have a steady? Priced a steady rest for a LeBlond? If it doesn't, you'll need one for barrel work, and hopefully it has a 36" bed. Probably has a 2.5" hole through the spindle so if it has a 24" bed you can easily stick a barrel through it, but you'll need to build or buy a spider for the off side. With that 5 horse motor and lathe you'll be able to flat get down and peel some steel off. It's probably 240/480v 3~ so hopefully a rotary phase converter comes with it.

A metal lathe in a wood shop environment normally doesn't do too well. Not that wood is so abrasive, but it's attracted to oil and a well cared for lathe is usually well oiled. The exposed bed being the most obvious. However, wood dust will infiltrate though some mighty tiny places. In the big LeBlonds as in lathes of any size, the apron is 'wet', meaning it carries it's own lube supply for the various gears and shafts for long and power cross feeds.

Also on occasion the apron had a pump and when the apron was moved up and down the bed, or the cross slide was used, this pump moved oil from the sump in the apron through small ID pipes to feed oil under the carriage to the bed and cross slide dovetails.

I'm not saying don't get it. I'm saying that if it checks out, ie: runs quietly and smoothly and the controls work, etc be prepared to get into any and all places that carried, stored or transported oil to the working parts, and to be prepared to have to clean all these pipes, and sumps.

.................Buckshot

[creekwalker]

Buckshot has done a very good job of explaining the ups and downs of a used lathe purchase as well as the hidden costs too. I’ve recently purchased a used South Bend 9A lathe with a 3’ bed, but w/o the steady rest and extra tools and I’ll be carefully shopping around for these items. Before I made this purchase I spoke with the seller at length and viewed photos of the lathe as well as researched its history. Along with this I researched the lathe to determine when it was made and spoke with several other knowledgeable persons about it, showing them the photos also.
I was provided with good advice as well as instructions on what to look for when I inspected the lathe and what to ask additional questions about. Then I took a day to drive down and view it in person as well as get a better background understanding of the seller. So after all of this what did I end up with? It is a very well used lathe in good overall condition but cosmetically terrible looking, which set up unattended for a number of years and acquired a light dusting of surface rust, was filthy dirty and all moving surfaces completely dried up due to the absence of lubricants.
This is where my willingness to get my hands dirty and spend time learning how to disassemble and reassemble the lathe has come into play. I have a lathe worth far more in used parts pricing than I paid for it, but will also be worth many times its purchase price once I put it back into service. While I of course am willing to take on such a project others may not have the time and means to do so themselves, in essence it’s an individual choice.

Creekwalker

[Rayber]

GREAT!!!
I had to work and didn't get back until tonight. Buckshot, well, all of you have really been helpful.
I'm calling the guy in the morning. I did get a better weight estimate. 1800 lbs, still seems light, but we can drag it on to a trailer. Total length is 8 ft. There's plenty of bed. No steady, the owner has one he was building but never constructed the mounts. Maybe I can get him to help me finish it. The lathe is running. He has 220 v single phase to the shop. His last job was opening up bores in shotguns to install "Turkey" chokes. A picture is a thousand words. I wasn't going to get froggy posting being a newbee but ....
http://www.geocities.com/mmu_rocks/LeBlond-17_01.jpg
http://http://www.geocities.com/mmu_rocks/LeBlond-17_02.jpg
http://http://www.geocities.com/mmu_rocks/LeBlond-17_03.jpg

She is old and dirty but she runs, the rails are smooth. The controls were stiff because it was COLD but they were smooth. I plan on making a cover for the expoed gears if he doesn't have one laying around.
Unless I hear otherwise I guess I'll get a couple gallons of kerosene and start scrubbing. That is of course you guys don't change your minds about grabbing this old doll. I can get my money back in scrap iron. (Chuckle)
You just can imagine the thrill I got when I saw all these replies.
Thank you for you thoughts and concerns. This next adventure is not a scary as it was 3 days ago.
Ray

[Rayber]

I hope these photos don't break any rules. Any smaller and they would be of no value.
http://www.geocities.com/mmu_rocks/LeBlond-17_03.jpg

[Rayber]

Last one..................http://www.geocities.com/mmu_rocks/LeBlond-17_02.jpg

[georgeld]

Neighbor has a huge old flat belt drive lathe he's tried to sell me for $500. I've got a nice well built shop, but, it's just too big for my shop, or my use. IF I was younger and in better shape I'd get it anyway, then also buy a smaller one for small work.

I'd like very much to have a 10-12"x40" power feed , brand don't matter much. I've got one of those crappy H/F junkers now that won't hold a cut over 3" without gouging, or at least tapering a bunch. It needs new pads under the set screws on the tailstock and fine adjustments I haven't been able to accomplish, or find material.

BUT: I've made quite a few small parts on both the lathe and mill that were rather intricate and got 'em made to within .001". Nothing very fine like I used to make all the time on a brand new Hardinge Chucker when I was in the machine shop. I'd about give 3" of my weinie for one of those in the condition it was when I left there. They'd bought it brand new for me about a yr before. To replace 14"x48" Atlas I think it was that was real sloppy. I'd even like to have that one now.

Married life and not having a shop til ten yrs ago and no money to buy bigger tools I have had to pass up quite a few good buys on lathe's and mills. Next major expense for the shop should be to pour a floor in there and get away from the dirt.
Anyway!!! Buy it and a hunk of 3/4" plate to deck it on big enough to spread the wt around for you wood floor. Just make sure you've got structure enough under it. OR pour a slab under that area would be a good thing to consider. Even if you can't pour the whole floor. Just a pad would be good. Sink support holes down 3-4 feet on each corner so the pad don't tilt over the years and you'll have a good set up.
Good luck,

[Rayber]

georgeld...Time zones ....I didn't think anyone would see this tonight..LOL
It's going in my buds garage for now. He wants to use it also. There's vague plans to add 12 feet on the shop for lumber storage. I have access to a good supply of American Walnut and the stock makers are drooling. I can get the trunks with the really good cuts. I need a place to store and dry it. With the LeBlonde jumping in the picture I'm already leaning towards a concrete floor or at least a pad. This would bring the lathe home yet keep it out of the WOOD shop. Funny , My significant other said I didn't have enough room for the lathe. This is like permission to do the addition. Wonder why I married her 44 years ago. (She also thought my venturing down to Troy, NC to one of the 12 colleges that have a Degree course in Gun Smithing might be a good idea for retiring.) NO !! None of you can have her.....
Thanks for the comments and advice.
Ray

[Buckshot]

.............Rayber, First of all, pictures are great. The more the merrier, and as you found you might have to do more then one post to get them in. I'm jealous. Especially about all the fun you'll be having :-). If the current owner has upped his weight estimate to 1800 lbs he's about half right. That's about what the bed would weigh, and that's conservative.

Here's your lathe: http://www.lathes.co.uk/leblond/page2.html and http://www.lathes.co.uk/leblond/index.html

Tony's homepage: http://www.lathes.co.uk/index.html

First thing you'll need is a manual. Badly.

You owe this to yourself, your partner and this fine old machine. My suggestion, and this is what I would do, and would look forward to doing is to not only tear it down, but restore it rather then merely slap it all back together. Doing this will take probably twice as long as a simple teardown and put together would. However, the pride of ownership let alone the substantial increase in value would be worth the time and effort.

Systematicly disassembleing the lathe from the top down and placing units and assemblies in their own boxes until you can get to them will simplify things immensely. Re-assembly naturally would be from the bottom up. Imagine what it will look like with a good paint job over freshly prepped parts! Polished up brass plates, and polished bright steel handles and handwheels with gleaming red or black spokes.

It may sound foolish, but a good looking well kept up machine will add to the user's desire and ability to produce quality work. A raggedy, filthy dirty lump that looks half abandoned with tools scattered all over just doesn't build much desire to do much of anything worthwhile. I don't know about you but I can see the old girl in all her original glory. Back in the days when we actually used to be able to build stuff in this country. THAT is what you have a piece of there. American industrial production and know how.

Takes LOTS of pictures!!!!!

..............Buckshot

[georgeld]

IF you 'plank' those logs, or even if you don't.
Make sure to tar the end's heavily to keep the checking under control.
They'll cure a lot sooner if you plank them.
but, make sure to cut them at least 3" thick and 6" wide, not less than about 40" long.

That way there's plenty of stock to turn from and move the pattern around to miss
knots, bug holes, and other crap.

Fellow in Md did the same thing about ten yrs ago with a 28" cherry tree that died and
fell over in his yard. Gave me three blanks. One turned out fine for my Sako. I ruined one
trying to get the shape started and he begged me to send the other one back. So I got
one stock, but, it's nice.

Good luck with it. Had a wife of 29yrs that "allowed" me to get all the tools I wanted.
Figured if I had tools, she could work me to death. Turned out it was her that went first.
Life happens as they say, right?

IF she's got a sister with the same ideas, ship her out west ok?

Take it from me, no matter how big a shop you build, it's NOT big enough!! Half mile sq is good.

[Flinchrock]

You need to learn about leveling, and you need a 12" Starret precision level, accurate to .0005 in a foot, a carpenters level just ain't gonna cut it. Also, the leveling needs to be checked for about a month as the machine sets. If the machine isn't level the ways wil be twisted and you will NEVER gat a straight cut!

Go to Practical Machinist.com and you will learn more than you can stand!!

[PatMarlin]

Lord I was watching documentary's on the history of the 40's and WW2 last night and what this country produced with machines, and lathes was just staggering.

They (we) produced a fighter plane every 5 minuets at one point.

Supplied our allies with all the implements of war too on a "Cash and Carry" basis only.

How could they let this country get so screwed up today?.. :roll:

[jlchucker]

Rayber, when you tear this machine down, you may want to consider getting some new gibs made, and have, during the course of reassembly, all necessary scraping done--for bearing as well as alignment. Properly lubricated, scraped moving surfaces would likely wear for a longer time than you or I have left on a good machine tool such as this one. I used to work for Jones & Lamson, once a major producer of machine tools. That was in the 1980's. They were still making and furnishing parts for machines built at the turn of the 20th century, and still in use-even though the company's main focus had evolved to manufacture of modern NC equipment. A good machine repair outfit could tell you all about rescraping, if you don't know already.

[georgeld]

Buck, JLC:
I'd trade a huge OLD 1836 patent 18" table saw for a lathe.
Table's had new babbit bearings, about 4' sq.
I have the guide rail and fence too.
Has a 5hp 3ph and I'm in a single ph area.

Take down into three big hunks: motor, table, base each about 200lbs.
Adjustment screw boss has been broken off the pedistal, but, I've got the
screw with the piece yet. One carbide tipped blade that needs about 16 tips
replaced.

Any offers?? I took it away from an old farmer that had just got it and planned
to use it for a welding table!!! Yikes, can't have that fine machine be ruined by
welding and grinding.

[JSnover]

This always causes an argument, but I think it needs to be said; Flat is more important than level. Level is good, get it near as you can but if the machine isn't flat, that's when the ways will twist. If every machine had to be absolutely level for a straight cut, all those floating Navy machine shops would have been useless.
The reason it's worth noting is because a floor may not be flat or level. Most are close but 'no cigar' when it comes to precision leveling.
I've used a 1610 LeBlond for 10 years which was probably set up before I was born. It is not level. The boss (now deceased) forgot more about machining than I'll ever know and he set the machine up with a slight tilt so the coolant would run back to the drain more quickly. Last summer I had to rebuild the tailstock. Reassembled everything, mounted the test bar to check for taper over 24"....... There was a difference of .0002" end-to-end. NASA may need closer tolerances but I don't. The building is almost 60 years old, so all the concrete slabs cracked years ago as they settled. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever leveled the machinery to allow for this.
The way to set the machine up flat is to 'box the ways' with your precision level; take two measurements on each axis as far apart as you can and work the leveling bolts to get identical readings on your level.
Good luck and congrats, Rayber!

[PatMarlin]

Buck, JLC:
I'd trade a huge OLD 1836 patent 18" table saw for a lathe.
Table's had new babbit bearings, about 4' sq.
I have the guide rail and fence too.
Has a 5hp 3ph and I'm in a single ph area.

Take down into three big hunks: motor, table, base each about 200lbs.
Adjustment screw boss has been broken off the pedistal, but, I've got the
screw with the piece yet. One carbide tipped blade that needs about 16 tips
replaced.

Any offers?? I took it away from an old farmer that had just got it and planned
to use it for a welding table!!! Yikes, can't have that fine machine be ruined by
welding and grinding.

Be interested in seeing a pic of that beast George. As old as it is, it would have been run on flat belts back in it's day. Is any of that drive still there?

Pat-

[garandsrus]

JSnover,

Can you elaborate on how this is done: "The way to set the machine up flat is to 'box the ways' with your precision level"?

Thanks,
John

[JSnover]

Sure, it's simple enough but you'll need a precision level and probably a ground parallel so you can work from the flats. A pair of spacer blocks would work but make sure they're in good shape and ground to the same size.
Put the level across the ways at the headstock end and take a close look. Now put it at the tailstock end and compare. If the two ends are not indicating the same, your ways are twisted. Use the leveling bolts to match them up.
Now put the level lengthwise on each of the ways (one at a time) and repeat the process. It may take a lot of patience and finesse to get both ways to read the same but when you are finished the machine should be flat and level. If you end up with a slight tilt that can't be fixed, just make sure it is the same amount from end-to-end or side-to-side.
As you face the machine from the normal operating position, if you have a slight tilt, you'd rather have it leaning toward you or away from you, sort of rotating it on the headstock axis. Let the machine set over night and check it again.
I'd recommend not lagging it to the floor, since it is almost guaranteed to shift or twist when you tighten the bolts, ruining all of your efforts at leveling. My 16" LeBlond and 12" Monarch, along with three milling machines (Bridgeport, Cincinnatti and Milwaukee) have been operating in my shop for 30 to 50 years and none of them is bolted down. We also used to have a gigantic Morris Mor-Speed radial drill and a Gallmeyer & Livingston 55 surface grinder, neither of which was ever bolted down. Good machines are HEAVY. If you're able to shake one loose or tip it over you're doing something REALLY wrong.
I also don't believe any of the mills have been leveled since the day they were installed. In their case, tramming the head to the table is a lot more important.
As someone else said, check it a month or so later to see how it's settling in.

[garandsrus]

JSnover,

Thank you... After leveling the headstock, I assume that all further adjustments (when possible) are done at the tailstock.

John

[Buckshot]

JSnover,

Thank you... After leveling the headstock, I assume that all further adjustments (when possible) are done at the tailstock.

John

................"Leveling the lathe" (or any other machine) is to make it true to itself. Lathes aboard ships afloat were mentioned and it's a good point. You could anchor a lathe sideways to a wall and if the bed was level to itself you would do good work on it, same as if it was on the floor. The term 'level' is itself kind of confusing or misleading.

My lathe is in my garage. The concrete floor slopes toward the large door. The headstock is in that direction and I didn't want lube and junk flowing toward the headstock, so it's biased back the other direction. Since the lathe is on a cabinet, the gross adjustment was done via the 6 adjustable rubber feet with which it's equipped.

The lathe sits on 2 heavy steel plates attached to the top of the cabinet and each takes 4 bolts. Of these 4 bolts at each end, 2 of them opposing each other are very finely adjustable. The mechanism isn't important, but getting both ends of the bed on the same plane is.

You will need a level accurate to .0005" /ft. Oddly enough these are usually 10" long :-). You can get one from ENCO and others, I'm sure for quite a bit less then $100.

Just do a search on the web for "Leveling a lathe".

..............Buckshot

[georgeld]

You experts with the fancy levels, I've got a question as I've never used one.
Did see them in the machine shop in the 60's, but, I never looked 'em over.

I have found that a good quality angle finder beats all the levels Iv'e ever
used though. Have a buddy in Pa. that's a cabinet maker of quite afew yrs.
He was telling how he gets a good job with levels. So I sent him an angle finder
and it changed his mind on how good a job he'd been doing.
Said he'd taken it to several installs and rechecked his work and found it wasn't
anythng to be proud of once he got the "real reading".

Have you compared your fancy levels to one of these fine grade of angle finders?
That's all I'm asking, don't want to create anything. Just want to open afew minds
a little bit is all. There's many different "level readings". Personally I can't read a
bubble near as accurately as I can a needle on a marked dial, but, that's me. You
might be able to see and judge them better than I can.

[georgeld]

pat:
Just read the last page again.
Don't think there's any pictures of the old table saw. Brought a "date" home just before
Christmas and she stole my camera so I can't take any now either.

This is direct drive from the motor shaft about 1 1/2" dia. Motor is flat on top and bottom,
about 14" long, 8-10" thick and possibly a foot wide and I'll bet it's not any less than
150lbs. Tell you what, when I was healthy and stout it was plumb damned heavy then.
I wouldn't attempt it now.

Table tilts in the ways, since the screw boss is broken off there's no controlling it when it's
tilted. Anything on the table will be dumped. It does have fresh babbit ways. Can't say
a thing about the motor as I don't have 3ph and no way to test it that I know of.

The two things I know it does need is the table needs to be sanded down from the
paint I've sprayed on it to protect it. and that boss needs to be either welded, or
braised back on. Otherwise I think it's usable the way it sets.

Where are you? I'm in Pueblo CO. A p/up can be backed right up to it.
I'd a lot rather swap it for a decent power feed lathe than sell it.
Don't need anything like that old LeBlond though I'd love to have that one.
That's the way this saw is built too. Hundreds of pounds of cast iron.

There's a housing with a bolt on cover plate under the table and over the blade.
With a chute to guide the cuttings below to one side.

Just went out and got some info off the lable on the pedistol.
J-A-Fay & Egan CO.
Cinncinati, OH Est 1830
Mfg's of Fine Woodworking Machinery

The table slots are dove tailed about 1 1/4" wide I'd guess. I do have the fence and
should have the miter head/blade too. The fence must be 50lbs itself. Nothing light
duty at all about it anywhere. It's a real antique really. But, I'd make a deal on it
to someone that would put it to good use and not just get it to resell for a big profit.
I could do that here.

Back to the LeBlond lathe. The pictures didn't come up the other night, just the red x's and blank boxes/pages. They're on tonight. That's a dandy. I've run 'em similar in the 60's. You've got a real honey of a lathe. I'd kick some ass for that red tool box being on the ways though. Get solvent to clean it with, diesel, or kerosene won't dissolve that old dried cutting oil very well. Solvent should. That's a machine that merits a good tear down and proper rebuild, with a good original type/color paint job. Then you can be very proud of it.

We're still anxious to hear what it cost you.

[Rayber]

I never ever expected this kind of response from a simple post. You guys are to much, almost over whelming. I didn't know there were some many people who felt as I do about old machines. I felt something when I saw this beast. I can make my next contact today at 1700 (5PM) EST. If nothing has changed, this old beast is mine for $250.00. (It's worth more for scrap iron.) I needed it to get a few jobs done, but now there's more. I have to salvage this work house. I may not be able to shot powder the spooks red but I can put a good coat of Red machine paint on them.(Buckshot) My wife instantly saw me rebuilding this old machine. It's more deserving then a car or car engine.

There's so much knowledge, advice and feelings in the last bunch of posts I'm going to print them out and let them soak. Let me tell you as I said in the first post, I have not used a lathe but a few times and that was years ago...many years.. 44 if I count right. I did a few jobs that went well but I remember forgetting how to disable the auto feed and almost ran the cutting tool into the chuck. I was a dumb kid then. I do have a project to complete. I guess I'd better take the time to explain. I read an article about a wildcat cartridge in 1963 in Guns and Ammo Magazine about the 38-45. I thought to myself. I'm going to do this. Clarke made a few barrels and an article was written in 1967. I acquired the SIZING DIES in 1975. The project died because of multiple transfers and no money.( Navy enlisted ) A year or so ago my son asked about getting the reloading gear out to make him some 270 rounds that wouldn't cost so much to shoot. I found my old 38-45 project. I now have the dies, a barrel and a reamer. I have 50 rounds of brass formed , bullets and loading data. All I have to do is drill the .256-9mm barrel out and and use my reamer and I finished. I tried this by hand and almost ruined my barrel. I needed a lath to get the barrel completed and here we are with me and a new life project saving this old monster. I also need a lath to drill and ream the 357 sig loading dies to my wildcat. I need to turn out a few more tools for reloading.
All I want is to make this thing (project) go boom a few times. I think the 357 sig will perform as well. It 's the principle of the thing.

Now I have to deal with this heart breaker of a machine and you guys who speak as you know this beast already. IF ...IF nothing has happened to it. I'll pick it up this Saturday and you will have to deal with it and me for the next year or so.

Buckshot...You may be doomed with questions...as all of you may be.

Just so you know a part of who I am. I am a retired Navy Hospital Corpsman (yea, 2 tours to Nam) I am now a Registered Nurse (ER) and a Paramedic (Volunteer). Now figure out how I got to here......
Ray

WOW....can you blab this much in a forum.............

[Flinchrock]

Sure, it's simple enough but you'll need a precision level and probably a ground parallel so you can work from the flats. A pair of spacer blocks would work but make sure they're in good shape and ground to the same size.
Put the level across the ways at the headstock end and take a close look. Now put it at the tailstock end and compare. If the two ends are not indicating the same, your ways are twisted. Use the leveling bolts to match them up.
Now put the level lengthwise on each of the ways (one at a time) and repeat the process. It may take a lot of patience and finesse to get both ways to read the same but when you are finished the machine should be flat and level. If you end up with a slight tilt that can't be fixed, just make sure it is the same amount from end-to-end or side-to-side.
As you face the machine from the normal operating position, if you have a slight tilt, you'd rather have it leaning toward you or away from you, sort of rotating it on the headstock axis. Let the machine set over night and check it again.
I'd recommend not lagging it to the floor, since it is almost guaranteed to shift or twist when you tighten the bolts, ruining all of your efforts at leveling. My 16" LeBlond and 12" Monarch, along with three milling machines (Bridgeport, Cincinnatti and Milwaukee) have been operating in my shop for 30 to 50 years and none of them is bolted down. We also used to have a gigantic Morris Mor-Speed radial drill and a Gallmeyer & Livingston 55 surface grinder, neither of which was ever bolted down. Good machines are HEAVY. If you're able to shake one loose or tip it over you're doing something REALLY wrong.
I also don't believe any of the mills have been leveled since the day they were installed. In their case, tramming the head to the table is a lot more important.
As someone else said, check it a month or so later to see how it's settling in.

You are exactly correct!!! My terminology should have been "flat to itself".
My 15"x6' South Bend was shipped to Milluwakee Valve on 3/25/1929, I can usually hold .0015 in 30" (with a follower) on 12l14.

[Buckshot]

I never ever expected this kind of response from a simple post. You guys are to much, almost over whelming. I didn't know there were some many people who felt as I do about old machines.

Ray

WOW....can you blab this much in a forum.............

.............There are several guys around this forum that understand the fact that good old quality machinery has a soul. It lives and breathes just like you or I. Doesn't matter if it's an old tractor, your grandad's pickup truck, something as humble as a windmill or as complex as the UP Big Boy strapped on to 110 boxcars pounding up a 2% grade. If it stirrs you a little inside ............ you're communicating :-)

..............Buckshot

[Rayber]

Just an update.
My buddy and I picked up the LaBlond Sunday afternoon. It took 3 hours and 3 come-a-longs to move it up a ramp made form aircraft matting. We first jacked it up and put 4x6x8's under the feet. I used 1/2" lag screws to fasten it to the skids. We used some 1" bar stock to roll it on for part of the distance. I don't have photos. The camera got left at home an my bud forgot he could take pics with his phone. I ached 3 days after moving the beast.
We now have a problem. How do we get it off the trailer? The smart reply is " Very Carefully" She's HEAVY. We have decided we weren't going to drop it in my buds garage and then move it later when I had the shop addition completed. It's stuck on his trailer. We aren't really sure how we are going to get it off right now. The last plan was to slide it off the trailer on the aircraft matting and build a temporary shed around it. Then according to my daughters orders , we will prep the area beside the shop, dig and pour a footer and a slab. We'll construct the addition to the shop with a garage door and have it all completed before May. She helped me build our house over a 6 year period. She works a regular job but give up her time to help. She has volunteered her husband to help and do the roof. He doesn't know it yet.
In the mean time, I'm going to start cleaning her up. She has a new coat of paint under the oil and saw dust. I want to see whats really under all the dirt. I'll go from there. The previous owner is a machinist and when he got her she had been sand blasted and he put a good coat of enamel her.

:drinks::castmine:

[Buckshot]

..............A good way to get it off the trailer and check it out at the same time is to take it apart in assemblies.

...............Buckshot

[georgeld]

Hey you lucky sun of a gun!
Wish you the best with that jewel. Hope you'll post some pictures before long.

Get a Lee collet die of somekind. OR one of those mouth belling dies is good too. Anything
with a bushing in it. Make up a nice set from about .191" up to half in by .01-20" steps.
Use good steel so you can harden them. make double ended short tapers to feed the
case mouths into the hole. Be sure to highly polish the bores and tapers. At least 1000 grit.
Finer than that make's 'em better.

These are the best way to neck size case's down to smaller cals. Some have made
.17's out of .44 mags with enough steps and care. Made mine last summer and necked
about a thousand 5.7's down to .17's so far. Played with an '06. Got it down about 224"
for close to two inches just for something to play with before it crushed. Expect not
enough slick 'em, or too big a step maybe.

Am looking fwd to seeing pictures of this old lathe soon. Have fun and don't get hurt!

[creekwalker]

Buckshot is correct about taking as much off of the lathe as possible befor unloading it. That's exactly what I did with my SB 9A and it was one of the smarter things I've done in a while. Compaired to your LeBlond lathe mines a lightweight, until you try to move it.

Have you considered renting or borrowing a tractor with a front loader to lift the lathe out with? If that's not an option then get some bottle jacks and lift the lathe up and put some improvised pipe rollers under it and pull it off and down a reinforced shallow ramp. Then use the rollers and a pinch bar to move it into place.

I don't know what the LeBlond weighs but since I've decided to learn how to use a lathe and mill I'm considering one of the HF Shop cranes they currently have on sale.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93840
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=35915
Creekwalker

[Buckshot]

I don't know what the LeBlond weighs but since I've decided to learn how to use a lathe and mill I'm considering one of the HF Shop cranes they currently have on sale.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93840
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=35915
Creekwalker

..............Hey, you know there is a REAL problem with those things doncha!? You gotta have a FLOOR to run them on. I had a floor once but danged if I know where it went. Maybe I'll do some investigateing about that tomorrow morning. I know where it used to be, anyway.

...............Buckshot

[mold maker]

I've used both unites. They are inexpensive, but serve the purpose.
Note:
When folded they aren't stable and should be tied to the wall for safety. They will WHACK you when you least expect it.
Don't ask how I know.

[Rayber]

I've looked at both these lifts. After trying to move this beast I wouldn't trust either one to lift it safely. I've seen the smaller one with a V6 on it and it was sort of scarey. I think this critter is on the high end of the 1800-3000 lbs scale. Three of us could not budge her on the ground, We jacked her up 1/2 in and three of use were able to push her 2 feet with a lot of grunts and sore muscles. We used a 5 ton jack to get the legs up to put 4x6x8' Oak skids under the legs.( 1/2" lags in the leveling screw holes.)

I love the idea of taking her apart to move her but Marvin, my bud with the trailer, needed the trailer the Monday after we loaded it. He is suppling 2 households with firewood. It's not unloaded only because the ground in my field has been soaked the last three days. The truck and trailer would belly up in my driveway. I'm in rural Virginia in the middle of a hay field.

I'll keep this group informed of any progress as you seem to be interested. The real help will be needed when I get her set up and trying to figure out 1st gear.

[Buckshot]

I'll keep this group informed of any progress as you seem to be interested. The real help will be needed when I get her set up and trying to figure out 1st gear.

..............That's an excellent reason to be looking for a manual now :-)

............Buckshot

[Rayber]

It looks like the LaBlonde is going to have to be stored until I get the shop addition built. It's going to have to be outside. I know that's not good. I had to store my radial arm saw and my table saw outside for years so I have had some experience. Except for the bottoms of the legs they both faired very well. I'm concerned with cleaning all the oil off of her. I had good luck with 2 layers of heavy clear plastic held up off the flat surfaces. I frequently removed the covers and sprayed down the surfaces with WD40, wiped them down , then I'd re-spray a fine mist over the flat surfaces and replace the cover it. I have to keep it tied down and put plywood on top to keep the wind from blowing the plastic off. I worry about ground moisture with all the bare surfaces on the lathe. I've thought about coating the whole thing with a thin layer of axle grease.
So I'm throwing this out there for suggestions. There is no inside storage available right now. We've canceled the idea of a temporary building. IT would be in the way of the addition.:???:
Thanks
Ray

:castmine:

[Scrounger]

That is what Alox was actually made for. I understand you can buy the commercial stuff in 5 gallon lots. Cut it with mineral spirits and paint your lathe. Mineral spirits will be useful in taking the Alox off when that day comes. Any left offer can be used as bullet lube. One would think the shop would come before the tools but many of us have that 'work backwards' syndrome.

[DLCTEX]

Check out White Lable Lube for Large quanities of Alox, makes Lee's price look expensive. DALE

[MT Gianni]

You are welcome to store it in my Montana shop for a few years. Gianni

[Nueces]

Rayber, what say you place a GoldenRod-type heating element under the tarp with the lathe, to raise the air temp in there and reduce the relative humidity? Just watch out the critters don't move in.

Mark

[Rayber]

That is what Alox was actually made for. I understand you can buy the commercial stuff in 5 gallon lots. Cut it with mineral spirits and paint your lathe. Mineral spirits will be useful in taking the Alox off when that day comes. Any left offer can be used as bullet lube. One would think the shop would come before the tools but many of us have that 'work backwards' syndrome.

I didn't know the Alox history. Interesting. I have an order going to LsLube next week.
I have been known to do things backwards but this was a take it now or loose it deal. One of the guys I know in RESCUE heard I was looking for a lathe so her ran an add on the radio station for me. When the owner heard the ad, it confirmed his desire to sell and it was going to someone. Plus is was only $250 and 30 miles away. The $1300 Harbor Freight lathe is 1 1/2 hours away plus shipping.
There's several helpful ideas here. I have used a light bulb before but I'll try to find one of those heating elements.
Since the last post I found out that one of the full time night guys in the ER decided to quite in a week with out working his 30 day notice. I've been asked to fill a lot of the holes he has left in the next schedule. It's all nights so there not much day work going to get done for a while. It could be months trying to get a replacement.
We may be back to a temporary building. I'd make it the same size as I'd need just for the lathe then pour a healthy slab the same size. I'd use screws then after the slab cured I can remove the building, slide the lath onto the pad and builded the building around it. It would have it's own room when ever I got the shop addition completed.

As much as I'd love to clean this beast up put it into service, if someone wanted to trade a smaller lathe I'd have to think hard about it. Marvin said we could go a hundred miles in any direction if I found something. We were kidding around but sadly it's beginning to sound like a good idea.

Thanks for the hints and ideas.

She comes off the Trailer Saturday if it doesn't rain again.:rolleyes:


3/21/08 Added message: To late to ask for her. We finally slid her off the trailer this morning. What a horse. IT's actually bigger than my Ford 8N tractor.