1895 American Lathe

[Boz330]

I got this lathe from a buddy that just recently passed away, unfortunately before he could teach me all of it's idiosyncrasies. It has been 30+ years since I've fooled with a lathe and then in a trade school class.
This one was dropped off of a trailer and landed on the hand wheel of the tail stock when my buddy moved it from his basement to make room for a modern Enco. The shaft was bent and the bushing cracked in the process. I think that the shaft can probably be straightened and a good machinist (not me) could reproduce the bushing and thread it. Looking forward to getting this thing running and making chips.

Bob

[scaevola]

Sorry about your friend.

Nice acquisition and definitely worth the trouble to get it working again.

[CastingFool]

Looks like one of those that ran with a belt from a shaft overhead, and the machinist changed speeds by slapping the belt one way or the other.

[country gent]

A good solid machine there that has many years of service left in it. The tailstock can be repaired and it wont be that hard to do the bushing is probably a bronze bushing and the thread is a square thread for the rod. Taps are available for it more than likely. A little looking around and a piece of appropriate threaded rod can be located probably. Ive worked on those old flat belt machines and they can be incredibly accurate. Just remember theydo know the diffrenct between metals and flesh. The one in that first shop I worked was a 3 ft swing and 10 ft bed. Ran a 4" wide flat belt on the head stock. For lower speeds there should be a back gear set up that drops rpm.

[Boz330]

An over head belt was surely the power at the time. CG the threading speed on this machine with that motor on slowest is 13 RPMs. I'm sure that is with the back gear. There is definitely going to be a learning curve.

Bob

[KCSO]

I know of one like that with a conversion to electric motor. I had all the specs and pictures somewhere as I cleaned it and set it up for the current owner. PM me and I will try and get you the data. They were originaly set up for either treadle or bicycle drive and had a big fly wheel on the left side, later they were used with overhead belt or converted to motor drive both electric and waterloo boy.

[Reg]

What you have is what is called a "plain bearing, open geared " lathe. Typical of what was commonly used from about the 1890's through the 1930's. They were solid, easy to maintain and generally quiet accurate. I have one, a 1906 Monarch, 16 x 52.
They were mostly "line shafted" run but many were converted to electric motor drive using a reverse cone drive. In other words, they had the reverse of what you see on the headstock for the flat belt drive installed as well as a electric motor. Simple--- effective. A few had some kind of transmission, often from a old car or truck installed with the electric motor to either up or down the final drive speed and also offer some split range gear selections through the different gear selections in the transmission. Until I sold it a few years back I also had one set up like this, a 24x 102 American. Good machine, just big is all.
The plain bearing business means the old lathe ran off bronze plain bearings instead of Timken roller bearings. Adjustable and easy to maintain as long as you kept it up. Also easy to replace when worn. Open geared means the gearing in the head did not not run in a oil bath and had to be lubed with a good oil several times a shift. If you did it right, this is how you kept the lathe maintained as you ran it in your shift.
The plain, bronze bearings were adjustable to take up any slack along with the mainshaft nut was used to take up any end thrust slack. In short you could keep the headstock bearings very tight and properly adjusted and as long as you kept the ways clean and in good condition, you could maintain the machine accuracy. My Monarch will hold .0005 on a good day as long as I do my part. You also needed to keep the machine level, true and solidly mounted.
The lathe is said to be the only machine that is capable of reproducing itself. Therefore, if you get yours under power you should be able to make any repair parts you need on your machine itself or at least come close enough.
If you need pictures of how to set up the drive system for the old gal, let me know . Can take pics of the Monarch. It is a simple , easy to do system but you will need that reverse cone. That might be a problem to find but can be made. I run my Monarch on a 3 h.p. 3 phase system but plan on at least a 2 h.p. single phase. Anything less might bog down.

You have the basis of a good machine. Going to take some work and time to get it up and going but will be well worth the effort.

[bangerjim]

There are two kinds of lathes..........good old big-uns, and big old good-uns!

A "line shaft-powered" machine....probably driven by a steam engine or big DC motor out back of the shop!

Still useful. I have seen some that use babbitt bearings also. You can convert this to an electric modern motor and still use a "laced" leather belt. You just need to learn how to lace!

Good luck in getting it up and running.

bangerjim

[Frank46]

Check with ENCO as to the thread size of the tail stock threaded bushing. And while you are at it also see if they have a handwheel that will work. Enco sells threaded stock in just about every size including the acme thread used on a lot of lathes. Frank

[Boz330]

A couple more pictures. It has an electric motor set up and the motor is reversible. A picture of the shaft and bushing on the tail stock.
You can see the cracks in the bushing where the bend occurred.

Bob

[cwheel]

That company, American Machine tool, ended up making the finest lathes ever made in the 1950's -70's before they went out of business. I had the privilege of running a couple of these for 20 years off and on. I worked in a machine shop that had may of these flat belt machines converted with gear boxes still in service, and most of them did a great job still. The later ones were just a little better than the Monarch brand and a pleasure to run. Lots of history there. If you plan to do a full restoration on that though, bear in mind that you can get more into it in repairs ( even if you do them yourself ) and tooling getting it running, than it will cost to get a newer gear head lathe in decent condition. What it comes down to is what you intend to do with it when it's finished. I notice that this early American lathe does not have a quick change gear box and uses change gears for it's feeds and cutting threads. If you didn't get the full set of gears that go with it, you could spend thousands getting the full set back from a gear supplier like Boston gear. Finding that exact gear set, while not impossible, is very unlikely unless it's with the lathe now. Also notice that the gear cover is not present, you would need to fab that one. If you add a tool post, a 4 jaw chuck and some minor tooling, you could hit the $3-4K range and still not be done. In most of these old flat belt machines I've run, spindle bearings need to be recast and line bored. Most of these used cast babbit, some bronze, almost never ball bearings. My decision to restore this one would be based on the condition of the spindle bearings and the condition of the bedways directly, and in front of the chuck. If the bedways are very worn its a total disassembly and having them re-ground to get much out of this machine. With most of the manufacturing leaving this country for China, there are lots of good machine tools on the market for reasonable prices. If you want a classic American lathe in your shop just to have it, you have a nice one to restore. It would be almost like restoring a old trapdoor Springfield to hang on the wall. If you plan on using it every day and turning out precision work, I'd be rethinking about how much you want to be putting into the restoration as well as what you are going to get for that investment in return. American Machine Tool made some of the finest machines ever produced in the world at anytime, and you have a fine example.
Chris

[bangerjim]

Yes, if you ever plan to doing any threading, you will need that full set of change gears that will cost you a ton of money. Hopefully they came with it in a box somewhere! And finish cutting is sure nice with power feed.

Without those, all it will do is spin metal and have a fixed feed rate, based upon the gears that now reside on the headstock.

That tailstock damage is a very minor point. I rarely use the tailstock in my South bend! I do everything including drilling with the tool rest and Aloris tool holders. Depending on what you want to do, a tailstock is not that critical and can be repaired at a later date.

Also, if you do plan on doing tailstock long work, you will also need a follow rest and/or a steady rest. Again $$$.

But tooling and those gears are your big concern now.....and the large amount of money you want to sink into it.

banger

[Boz330]

I have a box of gears and if I'm not mistaken all of the popular threads should be there. This machine is in fine shape other that the tailstock and the oil reservoir for the headstock. It had been cleaned up and somewhat reworked to go in the lobby at American Tool works in Cincinnati. The company was bought out and the lathe never got there.
My buddy did some fine work on it during the 30 or so years that he had it. He asked that I donate it in his and my names to the Machine tool Museum in the old Union Station if I decide to get something better. My bad that I didn't get together with him earlier so he could show me the idiosyncrasies of this machine. I have a lot of learning to do but it should be fun.
I appreciate the help and will probably be back for advice as time goes on.
Banger there is a steady rest with it. You can just barely see it in the first pic.

Bob

[cwheel]

Having the gear set and the steady rest is a big + to start out with. That lathe should be able to do a self repair to the tailstock if the internal threads in the casting are any good. Should be able to get a chunk of bronze and make that part in a couple of hours at most. Not very good pics of the compound rest, can't see a tool post or the slide. If it has a period correct toolpost with Armstrong or Williams tool holders, you are good to go with it. To use though, a Aloris, KDK slide type sure speeds up setup time. Might be interesting if the new owners of the American Tool Works have any pics or info on that model of lathe to see what, if any, gear and belt guards where produced with that one way back then, perhaps something could be fabricated up to match. I think I can remember getting manuals for some of our American lathes and a radial drill from the company that bought them ( I think it was Devlieg-Bullard ) Manuals were expensive, but they had most of the records available. If you look around some you should be able to find a screw-on 4 jaw chunk without to much effort. Your friend might have taken this project down the road far enough to make it economical enough to finish to make it well worth doing. You didn't mention what size it is, but it looks in the 14-16" X 48" or so. Sure would be great for barrel threading and fitting.
Chris

[bangerjim]

Good that you have those "extras"!

As said above - you can make most of the parts to fix your lathe on itself! A lathe is the only machine tool that can make parts for itself! I have done it several times on several lathes I have acquired in the past. Buy a junker.......fix it.......sell it.......buy something better. The cycle of life!

You can even make new bronze bushings, as long as the old ones are not totally shot and the spindle runs true. Making the repairs for the tailstock is an afternoon's work! Don't seat it.

Have fun!

banger

[W.R.Buchanan]

A few things not mentioned above. First this machine must be attached to the ground solidly, and during that operation it must be leveled and ran in using a long rod to take several cuts on to make sure the bed is not twisted. Just leveling it,,, even with a precision level, will NOT insure that it isn't turning a taper.

Once this is done, periodically checking it for the first few hours to make sure it is not moving around on it's mounting.

Another way to go with a machine like this is to mount it to a 1" thick steel plate and level the steel plate which would have 6 adjustable feet, and then shim the lathe on the plate until the headstock and tailstock are aligned side to side. IE: the diameters of the turned rod at the headstock end and tailstock end are identical.

The other thing you need to know is that Cone Bearing Machines are THE most accurate turning machines there are. The vast majority of pure Jewelers Lathes have Cone Bearings . Arguably the most precise Cylindrical Grinders are made by Crystal Lake and the design is unchanged from 1920's. These machines look very similar to your lathe, they are overhead belt driven and the motors drive the overhead shaft which drives both the spindle and the grinding spindle. I have an indicator that reads to 20 millionths and I have seen zero run out on parts I made on the Crystal Lake.

The kicker on getting good results from your machine is to get it leveled and aligned correctly. Also don't expect to hog material off large parts. It will have no tolerance for this whatsoever.

One of the most accurate lathes I have ever ran was a 36 x 120 25 hp American Lathe. It was WW2 vintage and probably weighed 10 tons.

You could use two roughing tools on the carriage at once and peel off 2 .250 cuts or 1/2" of material off a Cromoly shaft in one pass. Then come back and take a .025 finish pass and it would be Right There! Completely predictable and always repeated!

Nobody makes machine tools like that anymore. Luckily all of the older machines can be rebuilt many times so there will always be some laying around.

I have a friend who runs an oil country machine shop. He has several large American lathes. The newest one was made in the late 1930's. The youngest guy in the shop is his partner who is 56 years old!

There is an outfit in Santa Fe Springs CA that has a Way Grinder that can grind lathe beds up to 25' long. Patford Grinding, and as long as they are in business (and I'm sure there are others,) these machines can be rebuilt indefinitely.

I hope you enjoy your machine. It is a definite piece of history, but don't think for one second it is obsolete. It is just about as obsolete as a Model 94 Winchester. They still work just fine.

Randy

[Boz330]

Well got the machine wired up this past weekend and the parts to fix the tailstock arrived a little bit ago. Two of my customers are Tool and Die makers and they are helping with the repairs and set up. It has been 30 years since I've done anything on a lathe and that was as a student in a trade school that dropped the course shortly after I got into it.
I've located another trade school with classes and am looking into getting into those evening classes.
You guys have been a big help so far.

Bob

[Dutchman]

My former Von Wyck lathe, 15x60 made in Cincinnati circa 1903. I spent 30 years with the big green machine. There's no ~smooth~ like flat belt smooth.

http://images54.fotki.com/v563/photos/2/28344/474695/la10-vi.jpg

http://images40.fotki.com/v1261/photos/2/28344/474695/DSCF1525-vi.jpg

[cwheel]

One of the good points discussed above is how important the lathe is well mounted and level. I prefer to do this with the rubber leveling feet on smaller machines like yours. These leveling feet are cheap from Enco or MSC, and they not only allow you to level the machine, but they also eliminate a greater part of chatter you can get on deep cuts or using large drills. Using a test rod, making adjustments during the setup is very important and make a big difference in any cuts you make after the setup. You will know right away how worn the bed ways are worn doing this process. Don't think you are going to have to much HP from the motor on that one, but anything in this area helps. Much cheaper than a steel pad or grouting in the base with no anchors necessary. These feet have a built in leveling screw to get it where you need it up or down. Looks like that tailstock has a #4 or so morse taper. If it doesn't have a tang built into it, ask your toolmaker friends how to install the allen setscrews to lock drill tangs and whatever you need to mount. This keeps the tangs of drills and other things from spinning in the taper. You should be able to come up with the gear change chart that will show how the gears stack on for different threads and feeds, print a copy and mount on the wall next to it, will save you a bunch of time doing the math every time you need a change.
Chris

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dutch: that is a fine old piece of equipment!

Randy

[Dutchman]

Dutch: that is a fine old piece of equipment!

Randy

Bought it in 1979 from a gentleman who built flat track racers in Venice, Calif. Paid $500 and it was the best $500 I ever spent.

Now.. I use a 12x36 Birmingham.

Dutch

[WallyM3]

I love that old stuff!

I don't have the lathe anymore, but here's a link to pictures that I sent Tony for his site. The black one was mine (before I sold it). Note the unusual threading arrangement which he describes better than I could. It actually worked quite well.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/karger/

I impose on your thread to recommend black as a fitting color for a lathe of that age.

[FrankG]

Dutchman that looks an awful lot like my old Cincinnati , but mine has quick change gears.

[cwheel]

Dutchman, I also have a Birmingham. ( 14 X40 ) Had a chance at a nice American Pacemaker 14" but didn't have the 440 3phase to run it in my shop. Happy with my Birmingham for a home lathe, it's worked well for the last 15 years. Can't take the same bite that the 7 1/2 hp. American Pacemaker could take, but fine for retiree projects at home.
Chris

[smokeywolf]

I had an 1898 Hardinge Cataract Tool Room Lathe in the MGM Studio Machine Shop; strong resemblance to this one. In 1987 we retired it. Not because it was not accurate and productive, but because we needed the floor space.
I was the last one to run it. Single pointed some titanium rod on it; used the follow-rest.

smokeywolf

[woodbutcher]

:-o Beautiful machinery.Love the old stuff.Outstanding thread.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Boz330]

One of the good points discussed above is how important the lathe is well mounted and level. I prefer to do this with the rubber leveling feet on smaller machines like yours. These leveling feet are cheap from Enco or MSC, and they not only allow you to level the machine, but they also eliminate a greater part of chatter you can get on deep cuts or using large drills. Using a test rod, making adjustments during the setup is very important and make a big difference in any cuts you make after the setup. You will know right away how worn the bed ways are worn doing this process. Don't think you are going to have to much HP from the motor on that one, but anything in this area helps. Much cheaper than a steel pad or grouting in the base with no anchors necessary. These feet have a built in leveling screw to get it where you need it up or down. Looks like that tailstock has a #4 or so morse taper. If it doesn't have a tang built into it, ask your toolmaker friends how to install the allen setscrews to lock drill tangs and whatever you need to mount. This keeps the tangs of drills and other things from spinning in the taper. You should be able to come up with the gear change chart that will show how the gears stack on for different threads and feeds, print a copy and mount on the wall next to it, will save you a bunch of time doing the math every time you need a change.
Chris

Got the pads with the threaded rod and bronze for the tail stock.
My buddy had a chart for the gear changes but we couldn't find it. He was pretty much relegated to a chair the last time I was to his house and couldn't help find it. It might still turn up but I'm not holding my breath.

Bob

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dutch: was the Flat Track Racers name ,,, CR Axtel? He built the fastest BSA Gold Stars for Ascot that ever were.

Randy

[smokeywolf]

Bob, your lathe bed and apron layout is typical of late 19th - early 20th century, designed I think by the Cataract Tool Co., which was bought out (indirectly) by Hardinge Bros. who also eventually bought Elgin Tool Works. Cataract, Hardinge, Elgin and several others all share this configuration.

We had 3 lathes in the MGM Studio Machine Shop that were cone drive; 2 Hendey lathes and the Hardinge. Also had 3 Avey drill presses that were flat leather belt drive. I laced quite a few leather belts while in my apprenticeship and few in the years that followed.

I've been trying to source a new or late production Hardinge HLV-H tool room lathe for the prototype machine shop I'm putting together. Come to find out, Hardinge stopped manufacturing the HLV tool room lathe about 5 to 9 years ago. The last few years, the HLVs were priced at $51,000 without extras. A 1990s production (if you can find one) will set you back $30,000 or so. Now that Hardinge is no longer making the manual tool room lathe, not too many people are letting go of them.
I'm left with 2 choices, a rebuild from Babin Machine of Brockton, MA or a Taiwanese clone (Eisen) sold by Eisen locally; put in an RFQ with them Friday, should get the quote today.

A pic from days long past.

111928

smokeywolf

[Boz330]

Look at those boys, they look like early teenagers.

Bob

[cwheel]

They are teenagers. Also notice no safety glasses, the one working wearing a tie and all of the open belting and unshielded gearing. Our trade has come a long way. Wonder how many of those kids retired with all ten fingers. From that to programing a CNC in a hundred years.
Chris

[Dutchman]

Dutch: was the Flat Track Racers name ,,, CR Axtel? He built the fastest BSA Gold Stars for Ascot that ever were.

Randy

Bob Berbrick I think it was.. Spelling could be off.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

Carl Gustafs stads Gevarsfaktori circa 1900-1910...
Carl Gustafs city rifle factory

http://images51.fotki.com/v278/photos/2/28344/5902270/Verkstadsinterior-vi.jpg

[theperfessor]

Great old photos but the lack of safety equipment and machine guards makes me cringe...

[seagiant]

Hi,
You don't have to go back that far. When I was a young ordinary seaman (1980) all we had for hearing protection on the ships were cigarette filter butts! Glasses? No! Vibratory gloves? No! Ect.,ect! Times have changed!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Smokeywolf: Do Not buy a Hardinge clone! They are junk and will last for a few years and then really be junk. They have no resale value at all! Been there, done that on someone else's dime, lucky for me. We bought one at a company I worked at and 2 years later they wanted to rebuild it. It got sold instead and was replaced by a good used HLV.

30-50 years service from a real Hardinge Machine is not uncommon.

As far as finding a good used one, you just have to hunt the machine shops and resellers. You live in LA and there are plenty of them out there for sale. Try Reliable Tool in El Monte on Ebay or Machinery Exchange in Chatsworth. They usually know where the good stuff is.

Nobody with a brain is going to pay $30K for a used 90's machine just because the new ones were $50K.

The highest priced used one I have seen was about 2 years ago and they wanted $15K for it. It was virtually new with a DRO and tooling too boot. As long as the machine is clean with the original paint there is no way it can be worn to any extent.

My Chucker is 1962 and had been rebuilt in house 2 times by Statham Industries. (new bed, belts, and re-scraped X axis ways) The last time was in 1992, and one of my best friends is the guy who actually wore it out both times (had lunch with him today) . I got it right after the second rebuild. It will split tenths with no problem and repeat to tenths as well. I bought it in 1992! and it has been my primary lathe ever since.

It is real hard to wear out a Hardinge Lathe. My friend made close tolerance parts for Aerospace 10 hours a day for 20 years on that same machine and he actually took care of it. In that same environment the Chinese copy would last 1 year and be junk.

Also stay away from any HLV that has a serial number starting with "BL." Those machines were made in England and despite their assertions to the contrary,,,, their parts are not interchangeable with a real Elmira NY HLV... Our company got a deal on one of those as well, (We had a very poorly informed buyer who bought things when he thought he got a deal and basically knew nothing about what he was buying) and it lasted 8 months before being shipped off to a machinery liquidator. They got $1500 for it from some poor sap.

No reason why you shouldn't be able to find a nice machine for $5-7 K. You just have to look in the right places. Special note: Hardinge machines respond very well to being disassembled, cleaned and reassembled. AS long as the oiler works freely and you can get the saddle up on oil the machine will produce. You just gotta do your part.

Randy

[texassako]

For the OP: http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=3577 . Looks like yours is in there and the back pages have a way to calculate what gears for a given thread and how to calculate rpm with different flat belt pulley combinations.

[cwheel]

Now that you have the pads and are ready to level, get the machine level with the jacking screws on the pads and a precision level to start with. Then place a test bar between centers. Test bar is often made from TGP 1040 at least 24" long for the size of a lathe it looks like you have, longer the better though. Good size is in the 1 1/2" dia. range, but OD of the bar doesn't matter unless it's to small. Run a good dial indicator along the top and front center of the test bar. Headstock center should be turned in the lathe before using the test bar. Test bar center drilled to mount between centers on both ends. Final leveling of the machine will be determined by this test bar to take any twisting out of the bed of the lathe. You may have to dial in the tailstock if it's sideways for some reason, test bar will show this flaw fast. Sometimes with a well worn bed, you aren't going to get it out without putting a undue stress on the bed, don't do this, it will cause nothing but problems with the mounts later. I like to set one up with the headstock slightly higher than the tailstock so cutting fluids will run off in the direction of the tailstock. Ideally when you finish, the weight of the lathe is equally distributed on all 4 pads with any twisting removed. You will love these pads, they prevent more than half of the chatter in cuts and make good finish cuts much better. They also make it easier to move to another location later if necessary and re-level. Have fun with this one.
Chris

[smokeywolf]

Randy, I found a '97 with the same machine resale/liquidator company a week and a half ago in the upper $20,000s. When I called it was already sold.

Here is the best I've seen since.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/11-x-18-Hardinge-Model-HLV-H-High-Precision-Toolroom-Lathe-S-N-15072T-1996-/321475898116?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad974eb04

Resale has gone up considerably since Hardinge stopped manufacturing the inimitable HLV.

Right now there is a Chinese or Taiwanese "Victor type" small engine lathe and a 35 to 40 year old Tree knee mill (in good shape) in the shop. Ultimately, I have to purchase at least one Bridgeport knee mill (hopefully a manual/conversational NC unit) e.g., EZ TRAK or Centroid conversion. Also, a super precision tool room lathe and at least one more lathe, probably a 15 x 40 engine lathe.
The NC shop already has 3 HMCs and 7 VMCs, plus a large 3D printer, all recent purchases.

smokeywolf