45-70 ped

[ihuntbear]

hello fellow casters
I have a 45-70 Pedersoli
I've been trying to develop a load for this new gun for some time now.I tried different charge powders with triple seven and goex, nothing worked until I tried this load ..My load is 50 gr of triple 7 fffg drop tubed one newspaper wad over powder and a lyman 500 grn lead rnd nose..boolet weighs 530 grns pure lead on the scale sized 459,spg lube.boolet just touches the lands.have 2" groups at 100 yrds,trying for 1" group or better. at that yardage it should hit the same hole but it doesn't..some body at the range told me it needs a harder boolet,well I cast some 50/50 lead/ww.boolets were allot harder.all I got was key holeing..I mean hitting flat on the paper,i could see the grease grooves with no grouping at all...any ideas would be appreciated

[GoodOlBoy]

Handloader magazine issue #288 Feb 2014 has a good article from Mike Venturino on loading 45-70 for trapdoors that should work well for you. Amazon still has copies. http://www.amazon.com/Handloader-Magazine-February-2014-Various/dp/B00HVKD4EG/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1405444880&sr=8-2-fkmr1&keywords=handloader+feb+2014

I know some folks are going to scream, but back the bullet off of the lands and see what you get. You don't need a hard bullet for black btw.

I am not a fan of that bullet weight in the 45-70. I prefer the 405 grain RN hollow base from the lee mold, but others seem to hate it. Dunno other than that.

good luck to ya

GoodOlBoy

[montana_charlie]

I cast some 50/50 lead/ww.boolets were allot harder.all I got was key holeing..I mean hitting flat on the paper,i could see the grease grooves with no grouping at all...any ideas would be appreciated
A mix of 50/50 ww and pure should make a bullet that will shoot reliably in a BPCR rifle, but I don't know a thing about 'triple 7' powder.
I don't know if it burns enough like black powder to make that alloy bump up when fired.

But, as a first step, I think you should examine your barrel very carefully to see if it has leaded.

CM

[country gent]

There are several areas to look at. Keep in mind that Black powder dosnt do as well with airspace in the case. Determine how deep the bullet is in the case and then find the charge that just fills the case to this point. This gives a charge level that is no airspace and only compression is thickness of the wad used. Milk cartons, tablet backing card board, playing cards, gasket material or purchased wads all will work. You want to be able to hand seat the boolet onto the wad and be very close to desired overall length. Then work up in 1 grn increments changing nothing else but the wieght. This gives a slight change in powder charge and slight increases in compression that are very controlled. For my Black powder rounds I used a slightly harder alloy than pure lead 20-1 lead tin mix. A hard bullet at back powder pressures may not obturate to seal the bore enough. Hence the poor accuracy, leading, and key holes. I havent worked alot with the substitutes ( triple 7, blackhorn 209, pyrodex) As to powder Goex 2f granu;ation to start with and work slow and watch fouling. Hard crusty fouling is a sighn more lube is needed or a blow tube /wiping needs to be done. If you decide you need more lube a grease cookie can be inserted under the bullet between 2 card wads. Make sure the nose on the lyman 500 grn round nose is a close fit in the bore of your rifle. Should measure around .447 -.449 on the nose. A undersized nose can slump and cause keyholing also. It would be of help troubleshooting to know barrel length, twist rate, bore and groove dias, sights. all of this info helps to decide what to do.

[Boz330]

I know people that have had good luck with WW boolits and mixes but in my rifles it has always leaded within 10 to 15 rounds and accuracy went south. With real BP you get boolit bump up. The fakes are closer to smokeless and you don't get reliable bump up, add to that your harder mix and that might be the problem.
In several Pedrsolis I have started with 68g and worked back and forth from that number and had pretty good luck. Right now my powder of choice is Old Eynsford.

Bob

[ihuntbear]

A undersized nose can slump and cause keyholing also. It would be of help troubleshooting to know barrel length, twist rate, bore and groove dias, sights. all of this info helps to decide what to do.
twist is 1-20,sights are target peep sight front and back don't know the brand name,bore is .457..barrel is 32"...had some leading with 50/50 mix,,all clean know..I loaded some more with pure lead over the same load..now I'm out of triple 7 fffg maybe try some ffg or goex ffg..Only bad part about goex is its very dirty

[montana_charlie]

Only bad part about goex is its very dirty
Generally, Goex burns cleaner when it is compressed by .2" or more.
How deep are you seating the bullet in the case?
CM

[John Boy]

twist is 1-20,sights are target peep sight front and back don't know the brand name,bore is .457
All factory Pedersoli 45-70 rifles are 1:18 twist, not 1:20 and the factory bore specifications are:
* lands - 0.450
* groove - 0.4580

Additional factory specifications:
reamer depth controlled to +.003" and -.000" .
Rim Dia. .618"
Rim width .070 (depth of rim seat)
Case diameter at rim base .508
Case length 2.129 (includes .070 rim thickness)
Length of 45 deg angle .060
Diameter at rear of throat (at 45 deg angle) .4598
Length of throat .236
Diameter of throat at front .4578
Leade angle 1 deg. 30 min

[montana_charlie]

All factory Pedersoli 45-70 rifles are ...
Everything you gave him applies to Sharps rifles, John.
He said he has a 45/70 Pedersoli, but he didn't say what style.

I have an idea that the rolling blocks they built before they starting making Sharps guns might be notably different in the barrels.

[ihuntbear]

All factory Pedersoli 45-70 rifles are 1:18 twist, not 1:20 and the factory bore specifications are:
* lands - 0.450
* groove - 0.4580

Additional factory specifications:
reamer depth controlled to +.003" and -.000" .
Rim Dia. .618"
Rim width .070 (depth of rim seat)
Case diameter at rim base .508
Case length 2.129 (includes .070 rim thickness)
Length of 45 deg angle .060
Diameter at rear of throat (at 45 deg angle) .4598
Length of throat .236
Diameter of throat at front .4578
Leade angle 1 deg. 30 min
..sorry my mistake it is a 1-18 twist..I slugged the barrel and miced it ,457 on the grooves and 450 on the lands unless my mic is reading wrong...its a 45-70 ped sharps

[John Boy]

Charlie: I went to the Pedersoli website and scrolled down through all the 45-70 type rifles ... 1:18.
I was curious myself because on my firearms inventory spread - I had both my Sharps as 1:20 and something didn't click right in the head
I also looked in the data that Dick Trenk posted and twist was not mentioned

[Hardcast416taylor]

Just to clear this up a little, what model of Pedersoli do you have? Is it a Rolling Block or a Trapdoor or some other creation they may have made?Robert

[country gent]

How does the nose of the lyman bullet fit the bore? 1-18 is correct twist rate for that bullet but if the nose is undersized ( not unussual for lyman ) it can slump when bumped up causing keyholing and poor accuracy. You stated bore is .450 in your barrel, WHat does the nose measure on the bullet? I once seen a 457125 luman that dropped beautifull bullets .459 dia but with a .438-.439 nose dia.

[bigted]

i dont mean to state something that has already been decided but here goes anyway;

if you can take a tight fitting cloth patch ... clean ... and run it up and down the barrel a couple times and ANY color is left on the clean patch ... you got some un-mined lead going on. this will for sure destry any semblance of accuracy.

i take ...[as was tought me by a feller here]... pure pine terpintine and swab the barrel full length several times and get the bore as wet as possible ... now allow it to set horozontal for 5 or 10 minutes ... now take a very tight fitting clean patch and push it thru the bore and retrieve for a glance at the patch for slivers or flakes of lead/debri. repeat this procedure for as long as ANY lead/debri comes out on the very tight clean patch. i have had to swab the bore and work a brass bristle brush 10 to 20 times thru the bore and then re swabbing to remove some stuborn lead deposites.

just a thought for a sometimes fatal deposite that will continue to accumulate more lead as time goes by if not completely removed. i have had this happen to me is the reason i mention it here.

[ihuntbear]

How does the nose of the lyman bullet fit the bore? 1-18 is correct twist rate for that bullet but if the nose is undersized ( not unussual for lyman ) it can slump when bumped up causing keyholing and poor accuracy. You stated bore is .450 in your barrel, WHat does the nose measure on the bullet? I once seen a 457125 luman that dropped beautifull bullets .459 dia but with a .438-.439 nose dia.
where do you measure the nose..i measured just before the round tip and got .449...the rifle is a 45-70 ped sharps falling block ...my leading was just after the breech for about 4" then nothing

[John Boy]

.my leading was just after the breech for about 4" then nothing Gas stripping of the bullet base - under size bullet - lube starvation or ... a combination of all three

[country gent]

Yes you measure the parrallel surfaces of the nose .449 is a good fit for your bore. So now its either base/body fit or simply load development. Ussually that bullet carries enough lube. With my Hepburn in 45-90 I give 3 breaths thru a blow tube between shots. This helps to keep fouling soft. If you want to really pick up themoisture level wet your mouth with water before blowing. Also a little heavier wad may help also. Try some wads cut from playing cards or waxed milk cartoons. With the Goex leave no airspace between bullet and powder wad. Goex likes a little compression actually up to .200 or so. Work with 2 f to start and start out with no airspace then work up in 1-2 grain increments changing nothing else. This will change charge and compression both.

[Don McDowell]

Are you by chance seating the bullet without compessing the powder first? If so that is likely a big part of your leading problem, deforming the nose ever so slightly will cause you no end of greif.
Follow Big Ted's lead mining instructions, and then use something to compress the powder to the depth needed to just let the bullet base have firm contact with the wad/powder column.
Also be mindful of crimping, only enough to remove the flare on the case mouth that let you seat the bullet without shaving the base, is adequate.

[ihuntbear]

Are you by chance seating the bullet without compessing the powder first? If so that is likely a big part of your leading problem, deforming the nose ever so slightly will cause you no end of greif.
Follow Big Ted's lead mining instructions, and then use something to compress the powder to the depth needed to just let the bullet base have firm contact with the wad/powder column.
Also be mindful of crimping, only enough to remove the flare on the case mouth that let you seat the bullet without shaving the base, is adequate.

I don't compress triple seven,told not to..i just add powder through drop tube,one newspaper wad over 50gr triple 7 and just put boolet sized .459 in by hand..over all length is 2.62".lube is spg.boolet just touching lans...no room for extra wads or lube cookies unless I change to goex and compress

[Don McDowell]

It sounds like your bullets are to small diameter for your chamber, might check their diameter before sizing. Many Pedersoli's like their bullets at .460.
But until you get all the lead out of that bore, and start with it absolutely free of lead or fouling of any kind, you'll just end up chasing your tail.

[Gunlaker]

A couple of thoughts...

I see a lot of guys shooting black powder rifles that don't shoot much better than 2" at 100 yards. At least not consistently and with ten shot groups.

Generally the biggest thing that affects accuracy is the bullet. More so than powder charges, exact levels of compression, etc. If you fool with it for a while and it doesn't improve, try a new bullet.

I know that at least one bullet mould was developed specifically for the Pedersoli throat. Montana Charlie could tell you about design that I'm sure.

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

had some leading with 50/50 mix,,all clean know..I loaded some more with pure lead over the same load..now I'm out of triple 7 fffg
Did the keyholing stop?



...my leading was just after the breech for about 4" then nothing
Might be short brass. Do you full-length resize your cases when reloading?
What is the total length of a fired case?
What is the total length of a resized case (if you normally resize - don't resize one just to answer my question)?
Can you make a cerro-safe cast, or an impact impression, of your chamber?



I don't compress triple seven,told not to..i just add powder through drop tube,one newspaper wad over 50gr triple 7 and just put boolet sized .459 in by hand..
Did your advisor tell you why you needed the newspaper wad?

CM

[ihuntbear]

Did the keyholing stop?



Might be short brass. Do you full-length resize your cases when reloading?
What is the total length of a fired case?
What is the total length of a resized case (if you normally resize - don't resize one just to answer my question)?
Can you make a cerro-safe cast, or an impact impression, of your chamber?



Did your advisor tell you why you needed the newspaper wad?

CM
most of my fired brass measures 2.09 to 2.095..dont resize yet
no more keyholing after I got rid of the 50/50 mix lead /ww...going to the range again with some loaded with goex..what mix should I try

[Lead pot]

Your problem is starting right in the chamber as the powder is lit up in that Pedersoli chamber that is on the side of being large. I have one.
Here at home I shoot a lot of alloy mixed with WW and it makes a good bullet alloy but the antimony contend it has makes a bullet resist nose setback which is good but it also holds the expanding to a minimum. A mix of 50/50 lead WW will hold a long nosed money bullet like 1/18 tin/lead will. Now what I find using 50/50 L/WW alloy loading it with black powder with just a thin wax or even a .012" poster board wad over the powder even using a PP or GG I find gas cuts on the bullet sidewalls. Not all but I do find this to happen.
Now deep seating a PP like you would a GG I find this to happen more often. What I think is going on when a deep seated bullet is still in the case and the powder gets lit up the case walls expand to the chamber wall and blows the gas past the bullet before it fully expands. You can see this in a high speed video. I have watched the high speed video's where the smoke clears the muzzle before the bullet does and this tells me that the wad and bullet did not seal the gas behind the bullet.

From your information on how you load your round with just a paper wad under the bullet what I have done myself using a WW alloy mix using a GG bullet keyholing. A soft alloy like 1/30 or 1/20 T/L you will seldom see this.

EDIT; Forgot.
You might change your wad stack like a .milk carton wad over the bullet and a .1/16" cork under the bullet to help seal behind the bullet.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0263-1.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0263-1.jpg.html)http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0547-1.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0547-1.jpg.html)

[montana_charlie]

most of my fired brass measures 2.09 to 2.095..dont resize yet
no more keyholing after I got rid of the 50/50 mix lead /ww...going to the range again with some loaded with goex..what mix should I try
Are you asking about alloy mix, or how much powder to use?

I suggest 65 grains of Goex to start with.
If you want a mix of w/w and pure lead, I have to admit ignorance on that subject.
But, my first try would be three quarters pure and one quarter w/w.
I'm thinking that might simulate 30-1 lead/tin.

But, if you are serious, I recommend you get some tin and mix that with your pure lead.

CM

[Lead pot]

One or two Lyman ingots 18# lead makes a good shooting alloy with a postell type of ogive Charlie. I use that for the .50 with a creedmoor profile.

[Don McDowell]

most of my fired brass measures 2.09 to 2.095..dont resize yet
no more keyholing after I got rid of the 50/50 mix lead /ww...going to the range again with some loaded with goex..what mix should I try

9lbs ww and 1lb pure lead, 70 grs of goex will be your friend.

[ihuntbear]

Your problem is starting right in the chamber as the powder is lit up in that Pedersoli chamber that is on the side of being large. I have one.
Here at home I shoot a lot of alloy mixed with WW and it makes a good bullet alloy but the antimony contend it has makes a bullet resist nose setback which is good but it also holds the expanding to a minimum. A mix of 50/50 lead WW will hold a long nosed money bullet like 1/18 tin/lead will. Now what I find using 50/50 L/WW alloy loading it with black powder with just a thin wax or even a .012" poster board wad over the powder even using a PP or GG I find gas cuts on the bullet sidewalls. Not all but I do find this to happen.
Now deep seating a PP like you would a GG I find this to happen more often. What I think is going on when a deep seated bullet is still in the case and the powder gets lit up the case walls expand to the chamber wall and blows the gas past the bullet before it fully expands. You can see this in a high speed video. I have watched the high speed video's where the smoke clears the muzzle before the bullet does and this tells me that the wad and bullet did not seal the gas behind the bullet.

From your information on how you load your round with just a paper wad under the bullet what I have done myself using a WW alloy mix using a GG bullet keyholing. A soft alloy like 1/30 or 1/20 T/L you will seldom see this.

EDIT; Forgot.
You might change your wad stack like a .milk carton wad over the bullet and a .1/16" cork under the bullet to help seal behind the bullet.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0263-1.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0263-1.jpg.html)http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0547-1.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0547-1.jpg.html)

I was using a milk carton wad before I used paper wad..I used to find the milk carton wad by the target meaning the wad stuck to the boolet..That's why I was told to switch to a newspaper wad..

mix meaning how much powder charge to try with this boolet..I used a pure lead .459 .405 boolet before and my group was six inches at 50 yrds..so I switched to the 500 grn pure lead and the group came in to 2" at 50 and 100 yrds..But my lead stash was getting low so I added WW to the mix...bad move on my part

[Boz330]

You should have put the newsprint wad between the milk carton wad and the bullet to prevent it from sticking to the bullet base.

Bob

[sharpsguy]

Get a heavier bullet in the range of 480 to 520 grains. I have never had a 400 to 420 grain bullet shoot really good groups in any of my 18 twist rifles. This includes four Pedersolis, several Shilohs, and a couple with Green Mountain barrels. Your rifle will shoot very well with a Lyman 457125 cast out of 50/50 ww and tin loaded with 70 grains of 2f and a CCI 200 primer.

[montana_charlie]

Get a heavier bullet in the range of 480 to 520 grains.

Your rifle will shoot very well with a Lyman 457125 cast out of 50/50 ww.
Did you read the opening post of this thread?
He described his bullet for you ...

a lyman 500 grn lead rnd nose..boolet weighs 530 grns pure lead on the scale sized 459

The 'Lyman 500 grain round nose' can only be the 457125.

When he mixed his pure lead with w/w in the ratio you recommend, he got keyholing bullets at 100 yards ... apparently due to leading.
When he cleaned his barrel and went back to pure lead the keyholing stopped.
Next, he is going to try some loads with black powder.

Now that you are up to date on the thread, perhaps you will have a suggestion that moves the discussion forward ...

CM

[Don McDowell]

Well the really strange thing is the absolutely awful results with the 50-50 blend. That's not an uncommon mixture used by a lot of folks that shoot wheelweights. I'm guessing the problem with those probably came from serious lead deposits left by the short bullets of pure lead, to small for the chamber in the first place, and then agrevated to no end by the longer bullets of pure lead.. But not being there to see the whole wreck unfold the best any of us can do is relay what we may have experienced in our own trials and tribulations.

[wills]

You should have put the newsprint wad between the milk carton wad and the bullet to prevent it from sticking to the bullet base.

Bob

It seems no matter how many times this is explained there is always someone who doesn't bother to read the instructions.

[ihuntbear]

hahha no need to fight people..I was supposed to go to the range today but the wife said the grankids were coming over so the range didn't happen..should be there tomorrow..a friend gave me some pure lead today so I spent the day melting into ingots..really good friend 150 lbs in total...also there was no lead in the barrel before I shot the 50/50 mix...I think the mix is to hard to seal the barrel

[Don McDowell]

There are folks that have shot some record setting scores in bpcr using straight wheel weight, 50-50 mix isn't to hard.

[varsity07840]

My Pedersoli Gemmer Sharps is a tack driver with bullets ranging from the 380 gr HP to the 500 gr Government. All sized .459.

Duane

[Bad Ass Wallace]

This is the PGT boolit that I use in My Pedersoli Sharps , 546gns when cast 1: 30, ans 68gns Wano 2P.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/550gnPGT_zpsb7ebc472.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/550gnPGT_zpsb7ebc472.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/ericsrifletarget1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/ericsrifletarget1.jpg.html)

[Lead pot]

BA that is a mighty fine looking target!! Just think what that bullet could do with out all of those ugly washboard bumps on it's side :razz:

[ihuntbear]

This is the PGT boolit that I use in My Pedersoli Sharps , 546gns when cast 1: 30, ans 68gns Wano 2P.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/550gnPGT_zpsb7ebc472.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/550gnPGT_zpsb7ebc472.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/ericsrifletarget1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/ericsrifletarget1.jpg.html)

Same boolet I use7

[montana_charlie]

But not being there to see the whole wreck unfold the best any of us can do is relay what we may have experienced in our own trials and tribulations.
I'm guessing the Triple 7 didn't bump up the ww/pure bullets fast enough to prevent leading from gas bypass. Now that he's using BP he might have better luck with that alloy.

CM

[Don McDowell]

777 runs quite a bit more pressure than black, but it's not immune from needing some fouling control.... Lotsa things could of caused that trainwreck.

[ihuntbear]

777 runs quite a bit more pressure than black, but it's not immune from needing some fouling control.... Lotsa things could of caused that trainwreck.

what is fouling control, more grease, blow tube???????

[Don McDowell]

Fouling control is using either a blowtube between shots to keep the fouling soft, or wiping the bore between shots to remove the fouling and keep the bore condition even from shot to shot. Fouling control done improperly can cause severe accuracy degradation and leading.

[ihuntbear]

Went to the range today with different loads of goes and triple 7 . Nothing worked great until I added a blow tube to the mix .best group ever..thanks guys for the great advice

[ihuntbear]

this is one of the targets at 100 yrs..I had a better one but didn't take a pic of it ...shot 50 rounds of different loads of goex and triple 7..best load was 50 grns of triple 7 fffg with one newspaper wad over powder and a 531 grn pure lead boolet with three blows down the blow tube between shots.clean every 5 with a snake...this gun did not perform until I added the blow tube..now just need to set the sights...thanks guys for your help,very appreciated[smilie=s:

[country gent]

WHat was the load that produced that target?

[bigted]

WHat was the load that produced that target?

my question exactly. whatever you did to ackomplish that should be the base of a begining ... that is a wonderfull 100 yard target. keep up the good work.

[ihuntbear]

If you would have read my post you would have seen the load hahahahahahahh