Chance to buy a 58 caliber H&A Underhammer?

[oldracer]

As I was going into the gun show at Delmar CA this past Saturday a fellow was walking out with a H&A underhammer over his shoulder (had a temporary strap on it) and I talked with him about it. He said he had only shot it a dozen times and that was 25 years or so ago and he had let it sit in the gun safe all these years. He wants $400 for the gun, bunch of cast bullets, caps, powder, etc which sounds pretty honest to me. I plan to meet this week with him and take a look in the barrel with my bore scope and probably buy it if the bore is nice. What are the thoughts about the price, etc for this one? My long range plan would be to install a 45 caliber slug (Gibbs type) gun barrel and use a scope for long range shooting. It does have a tang sight and globe front sight.

Thoughts please?

[Plastikosmd]

I would already own it
but I am a big underhammer fan

[johnson1942]

sounds like a plan, have high plains gunsmithing at turtle lake north dakota sleeve it for you on the barrel you have. norm johnson is very good at that.

[telebasher]

Just be sure to use a nipple cup or wear long sleeves to protect your arms. LOL, kinda like welding wearing a short sleeve T-shirt.

[GARD72977]

I have never had trouble with the caps burning my arms. I don't think that H&A ever made a 58cal. I could be wrong. Just make sure the barrel is correctly installed on the gun. Should not be a problem.

[bedbugbilly]

I have owned two H & A (or H & A style) under hammers. One was a H & A - 45 cal. - circa 1960's. Like an idiot, I sold it. It was a great shooting rifle - simple, dependable and accurate. Later, I bought one to the H & A under hammer copies that Deer Creek sold. I still have it - in .36 caliber. In fact, I just cleaned and oiled it yesterday since it's been in a case for a while - plan to shoot it later this week.

As GARD said . . I don't remember H & A making a .58 cal. (but I may be wrong - it was a long time ago). Most of them were in .45 - so, the one you are looking at may have had a barrel change? If the barrel is in good shape and you do't want it (since you are going to change it out) - you could always sell it and recover some of the cost. Personally, if the rifle is in good shape, I don't think the price is out of line. For all of the H & As that were sold years ago (remember - they used to be advertised in Popular Mechanics and similar magazines) there should be quite a few gathering dust in closets. I just don't see that many of them though.

As I was cleaning mine yesterday, I was thinking of the same thing you are. I'm thinking of getting the action wood from Pecatonica and using a heavy barrel that I have to make a lighter weight bench gun to play with.

One thing about the under hammer - the mechanism is simple yet it works. Quick ignition and eailsy adaptable to either left hand or right hand shooters.

I took the flash cup that come on my Deer Creek rifle off. For me, it was a PIA. I use a Ted Cash capper and it's a lot simpler with it gone. Never had a problem with cap flash/fragments burning my arm.

Good luck and let us know if you get it. I'd love to see what you do with it on a re-barrel.

As an added note - I used to shoot with a RB club monthly. Nothing serious . . just a good informal shoot. Homer Dangler was one of the fellows who often came. There was a guy who always showed up with a H & A under hammer with a .32 cal. barrel on it. He always made a big show of how he could carry all of his shooting supplies for it - balls, patches, caps, etc. in an old musket cap tin. He often took first place with that little rifle over most of us who were often times shooting custom made rifles.

I wish someone made these under hammers at a reasonable price and market them like H & A used to. I think that they would help a lot of folks get started in BP shooting as they are simple and just a lot of fun to shoot.

[dondiego]

Homer Dangler makes some fine flintlocks! Wish I could afford one.

P.S. - I still have the first ML that I ever owned. Bought at Cochran's Sporting Goods in 1965. It was the cheapest H&A .45 cal that they made. It still shoots well.

[Boz330]

My accuracy/hunting load for my H&A is 100gr of 3F behind a 490 RB and it will definitely get your arm if you don't have a long sleeve shirt on. 80gr is fine but doesn't group for anything. If you are going to shoot slugs in long range ML it WILL be a problem.

The other problem is going to be nipple burn out. This will happen quickly unless you use a Platinum lined nipple (expensive) or one of the exotic SS nipples. The Beryllium nipples will hold up a little better but not much better. A burned out nipple can blow the hammer on a Gibbs back to half cock and there have been a number of them broken by blow back.

Bob

[bedbugbilly]

Bob - you point on having long sleeves on is well taken! You are shooting a lot heavier load than I do - call me a wimp! LOL Mine is a .36 and all I'm shooting in it is mild loads for plinking at 25 and sometimes 50 yards - I'm only using about a 36 to 40 grain load of 3F Goex.

You also make an excellent point on burning nipples out. I ordered mine from Deer Creek when I got it (many years ago) and picked it up from them at Friendship. The first thing I did on it was to change out the cheap nipple for a good SS one and I picked up a few spares to have as well. So far, it is still good but I do keep track of it.

I think one of the things that appeals to me about these under hammers is that a person, if they wanted to, could have several interchangeable barrels to switch out for different hunting seasons (tree rats and bunnies, deer, etc.). I picked up a barrel from a guy in the sheep sheds at Friendship the last time I was there with that intent - just never got around to it yet. It was a 7/8" octagon barrel that someone had taper turned the front 2/3 of -similar to a trede gun barrel. It's a smoothbore - don't remember the gauge but about a 24 or 28 gauge. At the time, I checked with circle fly and they had wads that would fit it. I thought it would make a fun shotgun barrel to switch out on the under hammer.

[twotoescharlie]

I have a .62 cal. with a long hammock barrel on it, enjoy shooting it but hav'nt had time to work up a load for it I have a pretty good collection of M/L , this barrel is the smoothest loading of all of them.

TTC

[Boz330]

Bob - you point on having long sleeves on is well taken! You are shooting a lot heavier load than I do - call me a wimp! LOL Mine is a .36 and all I'm shooting in it is mild loads for plinking at 25 and sometimes 50 yards - I'm only using about a 36 to 40 grain load of 3F Goex.

You also make an excellent point on burning nipples out. I ordered mine from Deer Creek when I got it (many years ago) and picked it up from them at Friendship. The first thing I did on it was to change out the cheap nipple for a good SS one and I picked up a few spares to have as well. So far, it is still good but I do keep track of it.

I think one of the things that appeals to me about these under hammers is that a person, if they wanted to, could have several interchangeable barrels to switch out for different hunting seasons (tree rats and bunnies, deer, etc.). I picked up a barrel from a guy in the sheep sheds at Friendship the last time I was there with that intent - just never got around to it yet. It was a 7/8" octagon barrel that someone had taper turned the front 2/3 of -similar to a trede gun barrel. It's a smoothbore - don't remember the gauge but about a 24 or 28 gauge. At the time, I checked with circle fly and they had wads that would fit it. I thought it would make a fun shotgun barrel to switch out on the under hammer.

I toyed with the same idea. Tip Curtis had a nice looking 20ga trade gun barrel that would look good on it.
I had also considered making a LR gun out of an underhammer but bought a Gibbs instead. The direct ignition would eliminate hang fires or no fires that you sometimes get with a Gibbs. When your burning 100gr of powder behind a 550gr boolit it can leave a lot of fouling. But if you shoot with a sling as is required by international LR rules it could get unpleasant.

Bob

[oldracer]

Well I got the rifle this afternoon and I did check the barrel markings close and there is no caliber markings anywhere? I mic'd one of the bullets and it is 0.58 exactly so I'll probably shoot those up at least while trying out the gun. That will be another month as I am still recovering from the heart bypass surgery and will have to wait. As Roger suggested, I'll give Norm a call and see the time frame and costs for making it into a 45 caliber fast twist barrel. The one that is on there is 1 1/2 full length hexagonal and is beautiful inside and out.

[Geezer in NH]

I have never had trouble with the caps burning my arms. I don't think that H&A ever made a 58cal. I could be wrong. Just make sure the barrel is correctly installed on the gun. Should not be a problem. They called it the Deerhunter

[Geezer in NH]

The other problem is going to be nipple burn out. This will happen quickly unless you use a Platinum lined nipple (expensive) or one of the exotic SS nipples. The Beryllium nipples will hold up a little better but not much better. A burned out nipple can blow the hammer on a Gibbs back to half cock and there have been a number of them broken by blow back.

Bob Track of the Wolf Ampco nipple 1/4x32 no big deal nipple will last a long, long, long, time

[big bore 99]

I have one of those 58 cal. H&A underhammers that I built from a kit in the 60's. I think they called it the Deerstalker. A great shooter and pretty accurate too.

[big bore 99]

I have a patch question about that 58 I have. The bore measures .575 and I have a bunch of Buffalo Bullet swaged balls that mike up at .567. Anyone know of any patch material that would be thin enough and strong enough to use? I thought about maybe paper patching them, but afraid it would tear on the way down. Appreciate any ideas on this. Hate to throw them all in the melt pot. Thanks!

[Reverend Al]

They definitely made them in .58 calibre ... I had one years ago. I really wanted one in the short, heavy barreled "buggy rifle" in .36 calibre, but couldn't find one anywhere. (A friend of mine owned one of those and I loved the gun and was trying to find another one like it ...) I did find a full length rifle in .50 calibre (so the owner said who had never shot it yet), but when I went to shoot it myself the patched .50 calibre round balls pretty much "fell" down the barrel. It turned out that it was in .58 calibre instead ... Like a fool I was talked out of that rifle years ago and I sincerely regret it, but I did find myself an unfired H&A (Numrich Arms) "target model" in .45 calibre with the factory peep sight last year and I sure won't be talked out of that one!
;-)

[Bullshop]

Anyone remember the Zepher?

[Nobade]

There was one on Gunbroker last week, I don't think it sold - he was asking several thousand dollars for it. Neat rifles but what a price!

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

There was one on Gunbroker last week, I don't think it sold - he was asking several thousand dollars for it. Neat rifles but what a price!
-Nobade

No joke- good grief! Sounds like the seller was thinking an old original antique, not a 1960-70s reproduction.

[Yodogsandman]

I used to use my dad's Hopkins and Allen underhammer .58 cal for deer hunting. He still has it. Burnt my forearms sighting it in in the summer with a short sleeve shirt on. I believe he had problems with the stock pins for the butt stock. He shot the Hornady round balls and the 505gr minnie ball from a Lyman mold. Pretty accurate for it's time.

[Yodogsandman]

I used to use my dad's Hopkins and Allen underhammer .58 cal for deer hunting. He still has it. Burnt my forearms sighting it in in the summer with a short sleeve shirt on. I believe he had problems with the stock pins for the butt stock. He shot the Hornady round balls and the 505gr minnie ball from a Lyman mold. Pretty accurate for it's time.

[ogre]

Anyone remember the Zepher?

I have one in 62 caliber. It is still unfired. I never cared for the ported barrel concept, and I wanted a longer barrel so Roger built my Zephyr with a 36" barrel: unported.