Help needed from Colt percussion experts (Pocket 1849)

[birch]

110479110481

110480110482


I am not much of a blackpowder man, but have always wanted a nice old Colt percussion to shoot occasionally. I ran across a 1849 Colt Pocket in .31 for what I consider a reasonable price. I just don't know a darn thing about them and am scared of getting myself in too deep. Like many of you, I love to research and know everything I can about as many firearms as possible. I also have at least a little bit of knowledge of a gun before I begin to dicker and deal.

The only thing the guy can tell me is that it is a Colt 1849 and has part of a stagecoach scene still visible on the cylinder. He also said that he has had some tell him that it is a .32cal and some say it is a .31cal. From the research I have done, all 1849 pockets were in .31 caliber. Also, he claims that all numbers are matching including the wedge.

Here are a couple of questions that I am hoping someone can answer:

1. How many parts of the gun did colt serial number from the factory?
2. From the pictures, it looks like the trigger guard and the front and rear strap are brass. My research indicates that Colt plated the brass with silver. From the pictures, does the trigger guard and front strap seem proper?
3. I know that there were a few countries that faked colts. Does the Colt stamp and serial number on the cylinder and the one on the frame look real?
4. What should the address on the top of the barrel read?
5. Is there anything you can see from the two pictures that would make you second guess a purchase?
6. Did colt make removable nipples, or were the nipples machined into the cylinder in the 1849?
7. Is there anything I should check besides indexing, lockup and play when I meet this guy to judge whether or not it is worth adding to a collection.

8. Again, I am a revolver man, but I have not had the opportunity to handle anything this old and feel like a complete newby on this one. Any help that might give me a hand when evaluating this gun in person would be greatly appreciated. I have to travel a couple of hours to make the deal, and the guy I am potentially getting it from is driving a ways as well. If there are any red flags, I want to be able to absolutly tell the guy if something is not right so he does not feel like I wasted his time and gas money.

Thanks ahead for any information.

[Omnivore]

I'm no expert. I'm a student in this subject.

First, most people on this forum who shoot percussion revolvers use reproductions (there are a few exceptions).

If you want a regular shooter, I'd suggest you do the same, at least for a while until you get accustomed to all the quirks and procedures of loading, shooting, disassembling, cleaning and reassembling these guns. Second, I don't know if a super duper, highly experienced collector of antique Colt's revolvers could tell you from the photos, for sure, whether that's an original or a fake. If there's any shadow of doubt, a person would have to see it person.

The nipples were always, for sure and for certain, separate parts threaded into the chambers. If you're going to shoot it, you'll want to be able to remove them now and then for cleaning. Any antique that's been fired much will have obviously corroded nipples, or replacements, as all the priming compounds used prior to the 1940s were corrosive (as if the black powder residue wasn't corrosive enough).

That gun looks to be in VERY good condition, with some bluing visible, and almost new-looking varnish in the grip. Like it was carried very little and fired much less. That someone is selling in a parking lot sort of deal is a bit odd.

If you really can't resist, make sure you have a solid identity on the seller, and have a signed agreement that says when you take it to a collector and/or dealer of your choice for evaluation within a certain grace period that you can back out of the deal and get all your money back if it turns out to be less than genuine. Someone just getting into collecting (a newbie as you put it) is THE target market for fakers.

Really, if you want to shoot percussion revolvers and you're pretty new at the whole thing, it makes a lot of sense to get the six brand new reproduction revolvers that you could get for the same price as one shootable antique. Or get four repros and all your loading and cleaning supplies, a few ball molds and bullet molds, casting equipment, etc. and have at it. I'd say start with a Navy model, a '60 Army, and the little 36 caliber 1862 Police model is pretty cool and packs more punch than the 31s, then you'll want a Remington New Model Army, and maybe one of the Colt's Dragoons. You could get all that for the same price, or less, in Uberti or Pietta repros. Wear those out, then get an antique or two.

if you get an antique as your first percussion gun, set it aside and learn how to use a reproduction for a couple years, then maybe fire the original for a bit.

Dunno. In my 35 year career in musical instruments, I saw a number of really spectacular, classic musical instruments, generations old and in fabulous shape, trashed in a year when handed to a newbie. It makes me sick, but it IS your money and your property, so do what you like. Just try not to end up regretting anything.

[bedbugbilly]

It is classified as a .31 caliber. But remember, like Colt Navies and Armies (in their respective calibers .36 & .44) - that is what the barrel was bored - .310 and then rifled. Thus it takes a larger ball than .310 and that is probably why some folks mistakenly call it a .32. A larger example - Colt Navy - originally bored at .360 (and .36 was referred to as "Navy Caliber") - it takes a .375 diameter ball or conical - enough diameter to "shear" a lead ring when pressed into the cylinder and enough to fit the grooves of the rifling on the way out.

Looks like a nice Pocket Model - enjoy! My only word of advice is that if you are planning on shooting it - please have a competent gunsmith check it out. A pistol that age could have weaknesses in either the barrel or cylinder chambers due to corrosion over the years (as in "pitting", etc. You also want to make sure that the timing on it is so the chambers line up with the barrel and that the cylinder gap is acceptable, etc.

[pietro]

That someone is selling in a parking lot sort of deal is a bit odd.

If you really can't resist, make sure you have a solid identity on the seller, and have a signed agreement that says when you take it to a collector and/or dealer of your choice for evaluation within a certain grace period that you can back out of the deal and get all your money back if it turns out to be less than genuine. Someone just getting into collecting (a newbie as you put it) is THE target market for fakers.





IMHO, that smells more like a stolen gun, than a fake.

I hope the OP saw a good ID, and wrote down the particulars, for his sake.




.

[fouronesix]

It looks like a real one to me. Doubtful it would be a fake. One caution would be ordinary 49s that have fake martial marks added. Original martially marked ones demand a very high premium.

Yes, the trigger guard's are usually brass and would have come silver plated from the factory. Many times the silver on the original brass guards is worn off with only small traces left in protected areas. Steel trigger guards are fairly rare but more common I think among the London made 49s.

Timing, tightness and bore condition would tell the story of use and maintenance.

The addresses were Hartford, New York or London.

If it is in reasonably good shape, it would likely be perfectly safe and shootable but maybe wiser to treat it as a collectible and get a repro to shoot.

[Janoosh]

Correct me if I'm wrong...aren't there different generations of Colt cap and ball revolvers?? Isn't there a "modern" reproduction, made by Colt, of their own cap and ball revolvers? And what are the markings to look for??

[doc1876]

1) all of them, frame, backstrap, triggerguard, wedge, cylinderpin, cylinder ,barrel.
2) they did silverplate, I do not think all were, and yes the triggerguard looks right. If the ss no is the same, then it will be correct no matter what.
3)I watched R.L. Wilson go over a fake for hours. It was a real good one.
4) could be London, or New York City, ( I think Hartford too, not sure)
5) if this seems to be reputable, no
6) All revolvers were removable (I think all percussion anything were too)
7) smooth function, action locks correctly, no banged nipples, (dryfierers) and I always smell all of my purchases, it is difficult to explain, but it works for me.

there is a bunch of sights that will tell you the year of production by just going to Colt Serial numbers

Good Luck

[fouronesix]

For a revolver dating from the 1850s-60s +/- there's always a chance it was stolen at some time in it's history :). Unless it is a very high dollar, rare piece- which this one is NOT- then the worry about such things as stolen or counterfeit, spurious, etc. is mostly unwarranted paranoia.

[Hanshi]

With all die respect to every gunsmith out there, All one will be able to tell you is if there obvious cracks, pitting and/or aftermarket tinkering. The best person to talk with (in person) will be a serious c&b collector.

[Hellgate]

Doc,
Is there room on all those parts for a serial number? It's a smaller pocket model rather than a full sized revolver which has more room to stamp. I'd hate to have the guy call it a fake if the wedge isn't stamped. Wouldn't the trigger guard, frame & cylinder be about it on the smaller guns? I'm just wonderin'.

[doc1876]

when you are talking Colt, there is no real guarantee about the way in which things were done, just usually done. But as to your question, yes, I have seen them on the wedge, and then again I have seen them not there. Wedges were replaced, as they were lost, or damaged, so it is usually the first thing to generate people to thinking that it may not be original. some parts on some colts there is only the last two or three numbers.

(I guess I should say on the early Colts before the fire)

[doc1876]

110591
I found this on Antique Arms, it is a

Colt 1849 Pocket Revolver w/ Early Style Small Trigger Guard



, I do not have my reference books here in the town where I work. Hope this helps

[Hellgate]

Doc,
Great photo examples. I stand educated. There's even a partial number on the ARBOR. I stand educated. Thanks.

[bob208]

I have seen some with just the last 2 numbers of the serial stamped on small parts.

you smell the gun to see if it has been touched up with cold blue or other chemicals.
as for the parking lot transfer. the seller mite not want people to know where he lives.

as others have said I would not shoot it. not because it is not safe. but because every shot is taking value out of that pistol.

[fryboy]

if it says "black powder only " anywhere on the barrel it's a repo no matter what other stampings may be on it

me first pistol looked like that , it didnt have a touch of nickel on it and it was mismatched #'s ..one of the few guns that have gone on that i miss ,mine shot to point rather well ( of course i suppose alot of practice helped :P ) it also taught me to work for powder and caps ,btw ? casting was way easier back in those days , just pure lead ...no lubin',sizing or gas checks required, if i was going to shoot it i'd prolly put new springs in it first and check out the nipple clearance and nipples real good as well a picking up a new set to use and umm yeah ... i'd shoot it
dixiegunworks may have some parts if needed ( as well as whole repo's and various other accouterments ) their paper catalog is worth it's weight in various information

[Omnivore]

Birch seems to have left the building.