45-70 Rio Grande

[armednfree]

First time out, I shot the Lee 405 HB with 47.5 grains IMR 3031. The first three shots went together at 50 yards. Then the group started opening up. No leading at all. Why, to be honest that load hurt off a bench. Probably the problem was me.

I'm stuck with 3031 but 47.5 grains should be in the mid to upper 1600's. I'm asking myself why. The old 45-70 load was 1400fps with a 405 and they killed bison with that load. I'm only shooting deer.

I have data down to 34 grains with no fancy loading tricks, so why not cut this load down to 41 grains? That should give me about 1450 I'd say, and that will kill any deer in the woods.

Any reason why not?

[runfiverun]

nope.
a 405 at 1400 is beyond just about any normal handgun type load. [the 480 ruger, 500, and 460 are in there though]
if you can estimate range, set your sights accordingly, and hold still enough, you could make a killing shot on a deer out to some impressive distances.

[Tatume]

My favorite muzzleloader is a Parker-Hale Volunteer. With a Lyman 450 grain bullet and 90 grains of FFFg it makes 1300 fps at the muzzle. That gun drops deer like they were struck by lightning! There is no reason your 45-70 won't do the same.

[armednfree]

How does that level of 3031 tend to shoot? I figure on setting it 2 inches high at 100 yards and calling it good. That figure as a 120 yard zero and a MPBR of 135 yards. A real long shot in my woods.

[44man]

3031 is a good choice. Friend had an original trap door and the gunsmith made him loads with 4198 and the 405 gr. The stock mashed my cheek like a sledge. Shots also hit very high and sights could not be adjusted.
I had loaded some of the 500 gr Rapine Gov't boolits with 3031 and almost flinched from fear after the 4198 loads but they hit point of aim and recoil was real pleasant. No more pain! I had 5 in a ragged hole at 50 yards but sorry, I don't remember the charge amount.
My friend shot many deer with that old gun. Told me it struck like lightning.
He has moved away and I never heard from him again so I don't have the load. Seems it was thirty some gr.
Have to love the 45-70 and 3031!

[44man]

Too bad Ray Pine retired, that boolit is my most accurate. I was offered to buy his business but I was retired on SS, sure wish I could have done it.
He was a wonderful person and when I called him I could expect to spend an hour with him. He sold me mold handles for $14 each. Most of his molds were for BP and he offered different diameters, Mine is .460" with 20 to 1 alloy.
If you ever see one, grab it fast.

[GoodOlBoy]

My 2 cents on this is that you are probably not adding into the velocity question that you are shooting a HB bullet. Meaning you are most likely getting quite a bit more recoil and velocity than you think you are. The fact that they are touching though is a good sign, and to be honest the 405gr HB has always been my best performer in my H&R 45-70 over black, sub, or trailboss.

GoodOlBoy

[44man]

No HB on the Gov't 500 gr. Just fit to the groove. The old timers got it right with the 45-70. I hate a HB boolit, no need for it at all. Even a .58 Minie' ball did not work unless a fit to the grooves. Went from missing a 4'x4' board at 50 yards to clanging steel at 200 meters by fitting the Minie' ball.
Here is the Rapine 500 gov't. 110515

[armednfree]

Well, I'm going to cut the load to 41 grains and give it a run. Just a 20 round experiment.

[barkerwc4362]

I use the Lyman "Gould" bullet in my Browning 1886 rifle. The mold number is 457122. I cast it 1/30 and then paper patch it. It can also be shot "naked" with good results. At 330 grains cast from 1/30 and 350 grains if a solid it is perfect for deer. I have shot it "naked" in an early Marlin 1895 (336) with good results. The Marlin did not like paper patched bullets. I used IMR 4227 in the Marlin, but use the "Keith Load" of IMR 4895 in the 86. I would try 457122 in your rifle for deer, the 405 bullet is over kill. Plus the 330 grain bullet will be more pleasant to shoot.

Bill

[NVScouter]

No HB on the Gov't 500 gr. Just fit to the groove. The old timers got it right with the 45-70. I hate a HB boolit, no need for it at all. Even a .58 Minie' ball did not work unless a fit to the grooves. Went from missing a 4'x4' board at 50 yards to clanging steel at 200 meters by fitting the Minie' ball.
Here is the Rapine 500 gov't. 110515

That thing will never feed in a Rio Grande. Another member got the LEE 450g to feed barely but it wouldnt feed in my Rio Grande. Also you will want to replace the butt pad its hard as a rock and the rifle very light. One of the many reasons I sold that hunt of junk.

[44man]

It is a large boolit. better for a High wall or sharps. Fit the Trapdoor.

[armednfree]

Well, I've stopped looking for that fine accuracy in all my rifles. I have rifles that will one hole groups. I've gotten more practical in my older age. The rifle only needs to hit a 6 inch target at 150 yards in the field from a sitting position, and do it with enough energy to kill a deer. This bullet, started at 1400 fps, will still be doing 1100+ at 150 yards. A 405 grain boolet at 1100 FPS will ventilate a deer very well. So if I'm doing 3-4 inches at 100 yards I'm good with that. Of course I always track my first shot separately from the rest.

[Wayne Smith]

I'll second the Lyman 457122 Gould HP. I use it in my Encore and it is a very accurate boolit. It is a single cavity mold, but I don't shoot them like I shoot my 32-20 or 25-50. A single cavity is enough for me and my best friend.

[covert]

3031 is my favorite 45/70 powder

[armednfree]

I'm just looking to get this 405 to work right now. I think it will be fine, but I have to get the recoil down some. I'm thinking 41 grains should do that

[44man]

My 12# Browning has taken a toll on my shoulder from the bench.

[armednfree]

Well, shoot the 41 grain load. The gun and load is deer killing accurate at 100 yards except the group shifts. I don't know if it's the scope (It doesn't seem to come back) but what does happen is the gun gets real hot fast.

I'm going to pull the scope and shoot irons. Then I'm going to fire three and let it cool. I may wipe and dry the barrel while it cools. At least I'll see if the first shot goes in the same place each time

[NVScouter]

I bet it's be scope. That rifle is a mule kicker. I put a 3-9X that did that. Shifting groups so I got an old 4X steel weaver and it was better. Same thing on my 20" Handi rifle in 45-70.

[MtGun44]

For real fun, try a nice mild load like somewhere between 12 and 15 gr of Unique.

This will do the job well and is usually quite accurate, plus saves a lot of $$ on powder.

Bill

[Toymaker]

3031 did ok with my 45-70, as did H4198, but at the suggestion of someone else I went to 4759 under the 405 grain bullet and found real accuracy. I've found that 5744 acts much the same at the load levels I use. Both would be in the 23 - 24 grain area. They are not position sensitive and give 1,200 to 1,300 fps. Last year it went through a deer at a slight angle, missed the close shoulder, hit vitals and then shattered the off shoulder. When hit at a tad over 50 yards, the deer turned his head to look at me and then folded up and went down.