Jacketed Bullets And Cast Bullet Loads Are Not The Same, Part 2

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Three days ago I was loading up 300 rounds of 9x19mm (9 mm Luger) ammo in preparation for a trip to the range. It was for a pistol I had not fired before and I wanted to try several different loads to determine what it liked best. I had recently enjoyed a great deal of success using Blue Dot in .45 ACP, so since the Lee powder measure was already filled with it I thought I'd start there. I picked up my copy of "Modern Reloading" Second Edition by Richard Lee, Copyright 2003, Reprinted 2003, 2004 (So this one must be a 2004) and found myself examining the data for both 125 gr. lead and 125 gr. jacketed bullets on page 534. Yup! Sure enough! There were Blue Dot loads for both bullet types. Interestingly, and contrary to all my past experience, the starting loads for both bullet types was exactly the same at 8.2 gr. , and that was also the maximum load! Even more interesting, the jacketed bullet was shown as having a velocity of 1170 fps and a pressure of 29900 psi, whereas the lead bullet's velocity was 1190 fps and 29700 psi. So, let's see here...using the same load, which appears to start at maximum, the lead bullet has a higher velocity at a lower pressure than does the jacketed bullet. Well, if Mr. Lee says so....(I've always thought the man to be a bit of a genius, and still do), it's right here in black and white and we know that he developed all these loads. Could be they were fired in different guns or different barrel lengths, or different pressure barrels? Only Mr. Lee knows. So let's get on with it, and before you would know it I had loaded up a box of 50 of the lead bullets using the 8.2 gr. of Blue Dot. Shiny brass cases, deeply seated primers, nice crimp, technically correct in every aspect...except the load continued to kind of bother me. So I consulted a couple of other manuals and found to my horror that in their opinions the load was probably as much as 3 grains above their maximums and that Lee's published load for the jacketed version was probably a bit more than 1 grain over. You can do your own research on this in your own manuals. I began to believe that I had loaded up a box of hand grenades. I phoned Lee Precision, gave a condensed version of the problem to the nice lady that answered the phone, and she transferred the call to an equally nice and polite gentleman. He listened patiently to my problem/question and upon three separate occasions he interjected a disclaimer into the conversation, "You understand that we don't develop the load information in the manual ourselves. All our load information is supplied by the powder companies, in this case Alliant." He agreed with the idea that lead bullets can't be driven as fast as jacketed bullets, and that all things being equal their pressures are higher, saying that fit into his experience as well. He said that he would forward the information about the apparent discrepancy in "Modern Reloading" to Mr. Lee, but said that perhaps someone else had noticed it in the past as there is no reference to 9mm 125 gr. bullets in subsequent printings. Well, that was certainly interesting. Taking the clue, I e-mailed Alliant Powder's "Ask The Experts" link found on their website. Only three hours later I received a reply which stated that they had no information on the use of Blue Dot in the 9mm, and had researched clear back to when the company was Hercules and could find no reference to Blue Dot being used in the 9mm in those records either. They said that they agreed with my assessment of the load being dangerous and suggested "tearing them down and starting over". Well, this is, as they used to say, a "fine kettle of fish"! Nobody knows anything. We got it from you. You couldn't have gotten it from us, because we don't have any record of that powder being used in that cartridge. I guess it doesn't really matter, unless you've got "Modern Reloading" Second Edition, 2003 or 2004 printing. Beware! Something like what I described in Part 1 could happen to you---or worse. Remember that loads for cast lead and jacketed bullets aren't the same. Yeah--old news to you mossbacks, but maybe not to the newbies. Best regards.

[nekshot]

ever have to pound out a jacketed bullet stuck in the barrel? I'll drive out a cast any day over a jacketed bullet! I do agree some 9mm loads in that manual are suspicious which is why we use many manuals at reloading.

[C. Latch]

How much of the case did that charge of Blue Dot fill? I'm surprised the case had room for that much powder and a bullet.

[Larry Gibson]

How much of the case did that charge of Blue Dot fill? I'm surprised the case had room for that much powder and a bullet.

This much. It's less than 1/8" from the case mouth and that's an unsized case. Seating a 125 gr bullet (cast ot jacketed) would compress it too much for Blue Dot.

Larry Gibson

110470

[swheeler]

Lymans 3rd ed Cast bullet Handbook lists 356402 121 grs with Blue Dot, 1.110 OAL 5.9 start-8.0 max. Lyman 47 shows 125 gr jacketed with Blue Dot,1.120 OAL start 6.1- 8.0 max, and it shows max load as compressed. Lee just takes published data from others manuals.

[C. Latch]

This much. It's less than 1/8" from the case mouth and that's an unsized case. Seating a 125 gr bullet (cast ot jacketed) would compress it too much for Blue Dot.

Larry Gibson

110470


Too crowded for me!

[Larry Gibson]

swheeler

Good points. That is older data (CUP derived) from before they realized the problems with compressing Blue Dot when they began using peizo-transducers and strain gauges for pressure measuring. The #4 CBH has deleted BD from 9mm loads until the 140 gr cast is used and then it's a non compressed load. Same in the Lyman #49 Manual. Lee's manuals are just a conglomeration of plagiarized data from other sources. I seldom use the Lee 2nd edition as a "sole source" reference because of that.

Larry Gibson

[nekshot]

to bring clarity to my situation a friend brought 95 gr jacketed bullets over a couple months ago and wanted me to assemble them. I looked at Lees manual and saw 95gr bullet with Bullseye showed start at 5.4 gr and max was 5.5 gr. I chose to go 5.4 and I gave the first 3 to him to go try out and they shot a tight groub but he said they really snapped the handgun compared to factory. I quickly looked at Hornady 5th manual and max for 90 gr bullet with BE was 5.5 and same powder for 100 gr bullet was 5.2 gr. My way of thinking the Lee 5.4 gr for starting was high so I dropped back to 5.3. I have no beef with Lee about this as I knew they compiled information and we need to use multible sources to keep from error.

[swheeler]

I am also pretty sure Alliant has listed BD loads in 9mm in their handout loader guides, just can't find it now. So with what the original poster said Alliant told him, they are not being completely truthful;( I'm sure Larry has the correct answer, when they got away from copper crushers and CUP pressure ratings they took pause in their previous published data. Now it is business as usual CYA.

[runfiverun]

many guy's recommend blue dot to first timers to use in their 9m's because they can't get enough in the re-sized case to cause themselves any harm.

an idiot is an idiot if one cannot make cast boolits work, they shouldn't be using any type of reloading equipment whatsoever.
people have been reloading cast boolits around a campfire in a wind storm at night for 2 century's without issue[FACE/PALM]

[5 RING]

wow, you must have talked to a "New Guy" at Alliant Powder. I just looked at there 2011 book and it lists Blue Dot for the 9mm. 124 gr Speer GDHP, Blue Dot, CCI 500, 1.120" OAL, 7.9gr Max, 1238FPS
guess even the reputably companies cant hire good help any more either.

[Blammer]

that's why you use them hollow base boolits, so you can stuff more powder in the case... :)

[Moonie]

bump for dromia

[9w1911]

Ive always wondered why Lee's manual was a bit off compared to others,
but my order was always 1 Lee, 2 Lyman and/or Hornady then to the web, but always finalizing in a starting load from Lee.

* Does he not say in one of his books that he worked up these loads?

[9w1911]

I just got back from the IMR website and I really do not like that reloading center as compared to the older version, they do not have the weight I am casting.
Choose a 240gr or a 270gr.
Has anyone here considered collecting "our"data?
There is enough info here to have the best cast boolit manual EVER!! :)

PS: I do have the cast boolit manual from Lyman its been the goto the last round of 44mag

[leadman]

My first stop when gathering powder data is to the powder companies websites. I have found this is the most current data as it is easy for the company to change if they note a problem.
I do compare the website data to paper manuals I have just as a final check. If the paper data differs from the website by much I call the powder company. If needed I correct my paper manual.
And I never start at a maximum listed load.

[dromia]

bump for dromia

Thank you. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/adamsutherland/Smilies%20FB/FB%20UK%20Smilies%202/sSig_goodjob.gif

[dromia]

Just another observation on data help and sources, QL has the start pressures for lead lower than jacketed.