Hevi-Shot Hog Wild 12ga dissection w pics

[cpileri]

I finally got ahold of some of the new Hevi-Shot Hog wild ammo: the tri-ball in 3.5” and di-ball in 3”, and just for you guys I dissected one of each and analyzed the components. Bear w me, as I load the pics and commentary.
As I promised here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?236224-Factory-cathing-on-to-Tri-Ball-loads-Hevishot-ammo!


First up is a pic of the loaded rounds. Simple enough.
110379

C-

[cpileri]

110381

Ok, lets get into the 3” since that’s the one most here might shoot. I cut off the fold crimp to find… sesame seeds (look roasted even), no not kidding! Seeds as filler over the top ball.
Seed weight in 3in hull: 43gr

[cpileri]

Next is the 3” payload: inside a 4-petal wad w a deep overpowder cup are the 2 balls and a spacer


110382

[cpileri]

Here is the 3in payload separated. Balls are 0.6225” and weigh 206gr each. Yes, only 206gr- they are not puer lead, or any alloy I can think of. Pure lead of .6225; diam would weigh 363gr, wheelweight would weigh 350gr, and linotype would weigh 334gr. Any ideas on a 206gr ball composition???


110383

The spacer is .633” diam and weighs 20.5gr. it is bi-concave to fit both balls, one on each side. The wad petals are thick; 0.030" for a total addition of 0.06" to the balls making the conglomerate 0.6825" aroud the balls and 0.6935" at the spacer,and the wad base is 0.718"- hope it seals in the gas! The orange wad for the Dixie tri-balls is thicker, FYI.

[cpileri]

The powder, if the pic comes through, is 26gr (in the 3” load) of what looks exactly like Lil’gun-

[cpileri]

Now the 3.5” load w 3 balls. Much less sesame seed over shot filler, only 15gr weight.

110384

[cpileri]

And here are the components. Same as the 3in load, except one more ball and spacer, and the powder, again looks exactly like Lil’gun charge is 36gr.

I guess it could be a finer grind of longshot (longshot is used in heavy 3.5’ loads, moving 1&7/8oz loads over 1250fps w 36-ish gr of longshot)
Hevi-shot claims 1250fps. Since total payload weight is 674gr (slightly over 1.5oz) in the 3.5”, and in other tested loads, 47gr lil’gun gets a 880gr full bore slug moving at 1320fps/ 13.3kpsi; whereas 28gr of Longshot moves that 880gr slug at 1050fps/ 8.3kpsi. I guess hevishot could have used whatever they want, and some stuff we don’t have access to.


110385

[725]

Very nice report. Thanks

[leeggen]

With seame seeds that makes it a real servival load!! LOL That is really interesting news, Thanks,
CD

[cpileri]

might even be considered baiting the hogs. or at least the birds.

[tomme boy]

Hevi-shot is a tungsten iron mix if I remember right.

[Hogtamer]

southerners use grits. northerners use cream of wheat. ??? uses sesame??? Burmeese? Indians? Somebody check with Ajay ASAP! Middle easterners? Sesame seeds? And I thought I loaded some weirdos!

[cpileri]

densityL
if its hevi-steel ball, it would be 9.4g/cc which woudl be a 302gr ball.
environmetals lightest alloy is 8.4g/cc which woudl be a 269gr ball.
regular shot steel is 7.8g/cc which equals a 250gr ball.
so what in the world is this stuff?
it does NOT attract a magnet.
C-

[cpileri]

btw the hevi-people's website says the filler is flaxseed.

[tomme boy]

http://www.semicore.com/reference/density-reference

[bikerbeans]

btw the hevi-people's website says the filler is flaxseed.

C-,

you trying to kill the hog or feed it?[smilie=l:

BB

[Whiterabbit]

ill bet dollars to donuts (but not a cent more) that they use off-the-shelf powder. Reason? Same as the reason that ferrari uses off-the-shelf audio gear in their cars. No reason to make a ferarri specific CD player for 1000 cars a year when they can buy an Alpine unit for $500 a pop. They'd spend 4x that developing their own.

In other words, there's only so much market for shotgun shells that cost $3-$3.50 a shot, and I will bet that it's not big enough to justify the cost of one entire powder run worth of batch.

[TES]

So the hog gets a snack thrown at it before departure.....sounds like the last flight I took only with better results for me....I got to where I wanted to go.

[cpileri]

thanks tomme boy, for the ref sheet. so i went back to my excel sheet for roundballs and plugged in some numbers to try to figure out what this stuff is.
Aluminum would give me a 86gr ball, so it isnt aluminum (thankfully!).
But something in the 6.5g/cc or a smidge less range would give me 206gr assuming the ball isnt HOLLOW.

I kind of want to try to cut on in half and see.

nearest on the chart is Zirconium; doubt it!

some deductive reasoning, It would be expensive to produce hollow balls, even for a short run. So i doubt it (for now), and the allow is probably common as well. so...

What common alloy is 6.414g/cc (say 6.5g/cc for easy remembering) or thereabouts?

C-

[cpileri]

whiterabbit, excellent points!
Helps me reason they didnt work too hard making a hollow-zirconium alloy ball either!
it has to be a common alloy.
Still searcching the bulk suppliers of roundd balls.
Whats the density of the bismuth-alloy that Cerro-safe chamber casting metal is made off?
Of course, that stuff is really soft.
C-

[cpileri]

Using google-fu, I found a thermal coating powder that matches density wise and could even be cast into round balls:
TeroJet 55 575 is an agglomerated and sintered Chromium Carbide-Nickel Chromium Alloy powder
Micro Hardness: 900-1000 DPH 100g
Hardness / R15N: 87-89 (HRC 53-57 converted)
Bond Strength: > 10,000 psi
(ASTM C633)Porosity: < 3 %
Coating Density: 6.4 g/cc
Service Temperature: 1500° F / 815° C (Max)
As-Sprayed Roughness: 175 -200 micro-inches AA
As-Ground Roughness: < 10 micro-inches AA
As-Ground and Lapped: < 5 micro-inches AA

[cpileri]

Here are a couple sintered stainless steel products:

These austenitic stainless steels are widely used in medium strength structural applications. Material of this category can be used in applications where corrosion resistance is desirable. Additional elements can be added to modify its properties and make it suitable for both high temperature and cryogenic applications. In general this material has high ductility, high weldability, generally no magnetic response, and a very high work hardening rate.



SS-304NI-30 Stainless Steel
Minimum Yield Strength: 30,000psi

Typical Ultimate Strength: 43,000psi

Typical Hardness: 61 HRB

Typical Density: 6.4g/cc

Typical Young's Modulus: 15.5 X 10^6psi





SS-316NI-25 Stainless Steel
Minimum Yield Strength: 25,000psi

Typical Ultimate Strength: 41,000psi

Typical Hardness: 59 HRB

Typical Density: 6.4g/cc

Typical Young's Modulus: 15.5 X 10^6psi

[cpileri]

And another one:
AMG Vanadium's low-aluminum ferrovanadium is known as FEROVAN®. This precision-engineered product offers distinct advantages to steelmakers, including maximum recoveries, and a range of other benefits, including:



FEROVAN® is ISO 9001:2008 certified.
Oxidation Protection – FEROVAN® is engineered with a dilute vanadium content and contains Si to protect the V from oxidation.
Low Melting Point (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/masstransfer.html) – with a 2675° F (1468° C) liquidus, FEROVAN® is the lowest-melting-point FeV commercially available, resulting in maximum solubility (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ferovansolubility.html) and the highest consistent recoveries.
High Density – FEROVAN®'s density of 6.4 g/cc (90% of liquid steel's density) ...

[cpileri]

I cut one in half, its solid and homogenous. A few tiny bubbles but nothing to make a difference.
So we are looking for a common alloy, non-magnetic, that would make a decent projectile w a density of around 6.4g/cc, or 90% that of steel.

[tomme boy]

Take it to a grinder and see if it sparks. If it does, try to explain what the sparks look like. And are they bright or dull. This should tell if iron or nickle is in the mix

[cpileri]

Tomme boy, i'll try.

KRYPTONITE is a special nickel chrome boron alloy with a proprietary blend of Hi-Carbon and Carbides. It’s available in powder form to be applied with the PTA (Plasma Transfer Arc) welding process.
Technical information follows:
Applications: Any place where extreme abrasion resistance is required.
Typical Chemical Analysis: Comparable to AWS 5.21-01, Class ERNiCrC.
Machinability: Only able to be “smoothed”, not ground to a specification.
Typical Mechanical Properties:
• Tensile Strength: 77ksi, As Cast
• Tensile Elongation: <1%
• Density: 6.4g/cc
Might be too hard for barrels, though- and the ball does cut like lead w my saw in my hands.

[cpileri]

no sparks

[skeettx]

Roasted so they will not sprout next spring??
Mike

[tomme boy]

Alum alloy

[Hogtamer]

Carl, did you torch one off yet? With that low mass and made out of recycled beer cans would not think they would have great terminal ballistics? Certainly not like the Dixie loads.

[cpileri]

No not yet. Me getting out to shoot is catch as catch can right now.

So what kind of aluminum alloy is suitable for projectiles?
C-

[tomme boy]

My guess would be a magnesium-aluminum alloy.

[Greg5278]

Zinc Alloy is 63% the Weight of Lead.
Greg

[cpileri]

well, whatever it is; compared to Dixie's Tri-ball it is bigger (.6225 vs .60") and lighter/less dense (206gr vs over 300gr) but it is faster (1250fps supposedly vs 1000fps). and of course, the 3" has only 2 balls.
So I'll shoot it for accuracy at least.
But i'd need a test medium to compare penetration between it and the lead balls. i am guessingthe lead will win, but if the Hog Wild is decent enough in its own right, it may still be a viable alternative.
i do like my tri-Ball Dixie-copy-cat loads, though.
C-

p.s. still working on the 20ga tri-ball.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The energy of your 206 grains "mystic" alloy at 1250 fps and that of a 300 grains lead ball will be quite similar at the muzzle, but I would choose the slower lead load due to higher momentum = better penetration.

[BattleRife]

Here is the 3in payload separated. Balls are 0.6225” and weigh 206gr each. Yes, only 206gr- they are not puer lead, or any alloy I can think of. Pure lead of .6225; diam would weigh 363gr, wheelweight would weigh 350gr, and linotype would weigh 334gr. Any ideas on a 206gr ball composition???

206 grains is 13.4g.
.6225" would translate to a volume of 2.07 cc.
Density is therefore 13.4/2.07 = 6.47 g/cc.

Tin is 5.75 g/cc; antimony is 6.69 g/cc. Simplest answer is an alloy of 78%Sb - 22%Sn.

Anybody who suggested aluminum, magnesium or any other metal with a density under 3g/cc needs to go stand in the corner.

[cpileri]

Thanks BattleRife!
i am not the alloy expert (that is a future goal of mine), but is 78Sb/22Sn a suitable bullet alloy?
C-

[tomme boy]

Sorry I meant to say manganese but magnesium came out. But that would not be it either. I doubt it would be tin. The shell would cost about 5$ each so that is not it. Or maybe Canuck $ is inflated enough to be worth more and cheaper to shoot.

[BattleRife]

Thanks BattleRife!
i am not the alloy expert (that is a future goal of mine), but is 78Sb/22Sn a suitable bullet alloy?
C-

110562

The two appear to blend pretty well together, at 20-25% tin we are right in the middle of the big rectangular area that isn't labelled but presumably consists of two phases, alpha Sb and beta Sb. But antimony is known as a fairly brittle metal, so I would think an alloy consisting of these two phases would be quite hard and brittle. Antimony also is known to be toxic as dust, so a brittle alloy comprised mostly of antimony could be expected to be problematic. Which is a long winded way of saying no, it probably wouldn't be a good alloy. So it may be more complicated than the simple Sb-Sn formula I suggested.

How about 80Sn-20Bi? The solubility of bismuth in tin is essentially perfect, so it would certainly be possible. I believe the EPA has listed all alloys of bismuth and tin as non-toxic for ammunition purposes, and the toughness should be decent, with the high tin content. The primary metals are relatively costly, but it's a light payload, and figuring $10/lb LME prices that's about $0.30 per ball. How much are the loaded rounds?
110564

[cpileri]

a little less than 2 bucks per shot.
C-

[Blood Trail]

So anyone try them on hogs? I would like to Try'em on pigs here in texas.

[cpileri]

I dont know anyone who has tried them, thats why i did the pictorial- so folks would have some info.

i definitely would love to try them on pigs!

No pigs in my immediate area of texas, but i am sure I can find some.
C-

[Blood Trail]

Only two types of land in Texas: those infested with hogs and those that will be infested with hogs.

[Geezer in NH]

Take the balls to your friendly recycled metals yard and have him hit it with his analyzer gun it might cost a couple of bucks but you will know what the alloy is.

[cpileri]

Not a bad idea. i will see if i can find a place around here, and will post the results if I do.
C-

[wildflilghts]

It's Zinc! Good call Greg!
The following is the Press release from Hevi regarding Hog Wild not passing in the field Hot Shot Inspection.



Anyone else have a case of the Monday insanity hit their desk? This is what hit the HEVI-Shot office this morning....someone was using our Hog Wild product on a feral hog hunt that mandated non-toxic shot. Of course who else would you pick but us for that job? When the field detection device failed to register our zinc/steel balls in our hog wild shell the regulation officer automatically thought that it was lead. Our phones and emails blew up which prompted this letter from our CEO to Hagerman NWR.

Thank you for your letter.

The large balls in our Hog Wild product are zinc, not lead. A game warden using a Hot Shot inspection tool will read a zinc ball as a lead ball, because the Hot Shot device cannot presently discriminate between zinc and lead. This comes straight from Dennis Dorando, the inventor and producer of the Hot Shot device. We have worked with Dennis, providing samples and so on, since we started in 2000. I am copying Dennis on this email, should you wish to talk with him directly.

Dennis will tell you that the device may read copper, nickel, aluminum, zinc, and several other metals as lead, too. The reasons are technically complicated, and he can explain them, but they basically have to do with tradeoffs involved in optimizing his device to distinguish bismuth and tungsten-based shot from lead.

Our zinc ball contains no lead, regardless of what the Hot Shot device reads. It is nontoxic, in the sense that it contains no lead, and is substantially safer for aquatic and terrestrial life than copper (used in nontoxic bullets), according to the EPA's Freshwater Aquatic Toxicology data.

Here is a subtlety of the "non-toxic" designation:

For bullets and slugs, anything "non-lead", e.g. copper, guilding metal, steel core bullets, etc. is "non-toxic". In California and elsewhere, for bullets and slugs,

non-lead = non-toxic

This is not true of the non-toxic designation for waterfowl. Copper is not approved as non-toxic for waterfowl, for example, because in very small concentrations it kills various aquatic species. Copper bullets are considered non-toxic for hunting on federal and state lands, but copper shot is not approved as non-toxic for bird hunting.

Zinc is orders of magnitude less toxic to aquatic species than is copper according to the EPA, and (in my judgment, with 4 approvals) would pass the USFWS/EPA Tier 1 and Tier 2 screening for non-toxic approval.

Since bullet and hunting loads that are non-lead are "non-toxic", we designated Hog Wild as non-toxic. If we wanted to make zinc birdshot, we would have to go through the USFWS approval process in order to call it non-toxic.

From this discussion, I would ask you to inform future hunters that our Hog Wild shot is non-toxic zinc - which is true - and allow them to use it on your hunts. At a minimum, please don't prohibit it for the wrong reason, that you thought the balls were lead, when they are not.

In honor of the insanity we decided to banish the craziness by having a giveaway on our Facebook page! Go check it out at https://www.facebook.com/hevishotammo
And if you don't have Facebook, no problem! Just shoot us an email with your name and shipping address and we will add your name to the contest!
Happy hunting,
Kelly Sorensen
VP Sales & Marketing
HEVI-Shot

[cpileri]

they could have seen this coming:

castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?250372-Hevi-Shot-ball-analysis!-what-is-this-stuff-cuz-it-isn-t-quot-hevi-quot (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?250372-Hevi-Shot-ball-analysis!-what-is-this-stuff-cuz-it-isn-t-quot-hevi-quot)

esp if they knew the field tester device couldnt distinguish btwn lead and zinc.
C-

[wildflilghts]

Here is a follow up email I got from the manufacturer. A little more info:


Dear (cpileri) –

Setting aside the chemistry questions for now, l'll tell you what we know about impact on heavy bone with this load, which is not much. We have tested our frangible pellets (e.g. Dead Coyote!®) on bone in Perma-Gel (i.e. surrounded by a flesh-like fluid), and they go right through and look re-usable. Same result when firing into wood.

We haven't done a necropsy on a shot pig with these balls that helped us understand what the balls do against heavy bone, but I'm thinking they probably behave like our frangible pellets. That is, I would imagine they stay intact through the bone until they run out of energy and stop, either in or through the bone. The balls have about 10 times the tensile strength of lead balls, so they don't fragment as easily.

We do have field reports from hunters who have "blown up" pig skulls with head shots at 50 yards, so whatever is happening seems to work.

Thanks for your interest in HEVI-Shot and, when you get to try Hog Wild, please let us know how it goes for you.

Best Regards,
K---- S------
VP Sales & Marketing

This seems to infer that Dead Coyote is Zinc/Aluminum also? !!! Noticed the press release and your letter were both from Kelly Sorensen, VP Marketing



Yeah. I guess "really light shot" (with the trendy intentional misspelling of "lite-shawt") or "anorexic alloy shot" (go ahead, misspell that!) or "hawg weightless" wouldnt have been too good an ad campaign.

i dunno; maybe they were just trying not to copyright infringe on Dixie, so they made their unique spacers, and different diameter balls and said "lets make it faster than tri-ball, too"; and came up with this two- and three- low-density alloy load. then outsourced for 90zn/10al balls and got them with some impurities from whomever.

I plan to try a bunch of loads, these included, on beef femur either packed in newspaper or plumbers putty, whichever I can get when the time comes, and see how they do.

Lite-Sh@*t! They're giving it away on Facebook.

[Blood Trail]

It's Zinc! Good call Greg!
The following is the Press release from Hevi regarding Hog Wild not passing in the field Hot Shot Inspection.



Anyone else have a case of the Monday insanity hit their desk? This is what hit the HEVI-Shot office this morning....someone was using our Hog Wild product on a feral hog hunt that mandated non-toxic shot. Of course who else would you pick but us for that job? When the field detection device failed to register our zinc/steel balls in our hog wild shell the regulation officer automatically thought that it was lead. Our phones and emails blew up which prompted this letter from our CEO to Hagerman NWR.

Thank you for your letter.

The large balls in our Hog Wild product are zinc, not lead. A game warden using a Hot Shot inspection tool will read a zinc ball as a lead ball, because the Hot Shot device cannot presently discriminate between zinc and lead. This comes straight from Dennis Dorando, the inventor and producer of the Hot Shot device. We have worked with Dennis, providing samples and so on, since we started in 2000. I am copying Dennis on this email, should you wish to talk with him directly.

Dennis will tell you that the device may read copper, nickel, aluminum, zinc, and several other metals as lead, too. The reasons are technically complicated, and he can explain them, but they basically have to do with tradeoffs involved in optimizing his device to distinguish bismuth and tungsten-based shot from lead.

Our zinc ball contains no lead, regardless of what the Hot Shot device reads. It is nontoxic, in the sense that it contains no lead, and is substantially safer for aquatic and terrestrial life than copper (used in nontoxic bullets), according to the EPA's Freshwater Aquatic Toxicology data.

Here is a subtlety of the "non-toxic" designation:

For bullets and slugs, anything "non-lead", e.g. copper, guilding metal, steel core bullets, etc. is "non-toxic". In California and elsewhere, for bullets and slugs,

non-lead = non-toxic

This is not true of the non-toxic designation for waterfowl. Copper is not approved as non-toxic for waterfowl, for example, because in very small concentrations it kills various aquatic species. Copper bullets are considered non-toxic for hunting on federal and state lands, but copper shot is not approved as non-toxic for bird hunting.

Zinc is orders of magnitude less toxic to aquatic species than is copper according to the EPA, and (in my judgment, with 4 approvals) would pass the USFWS/EPA Tier 1 and Tier 2 screening for non-toxic approval.

Since bullet and hunting loads that are non-lead are "non-toxic", we designated Hog Wild as non-toxic. If we wanted to make zinc birdshot, we would have to go through the USFWS approval process in order to call it non-toxic.

From this discussion, I would ask you to inform future hunters that our Hog Wild shot is non-toxic zinc - which is true - and allow them to use it on your hunts. At a minimum, please don't prohibit it for the wrong reason, that you thought the balls were lead, when they are not.

In honor of the insanity we decided to banish the craziness by having a giveaway on our Facebook page! Go check it out at https://www.facebook.com/hevishotammo
And if you don't have Facebook, no problem! Just shoot us an email with your name and shipping address and we will add your name to the contest!
Happy hunting,
Kelly Sorensen
VP Sales & Marketing
HEVI-Shot

Yeah, I know the guys that started that on texasbowhunter.com. Hagerman wildlife refuge is an awesome place to hunt where the common man can shoot a monster deer. 150's are common there and 140's get passed on. It's archery only. They also have a ton of pigs.

They had a draw hunt for hogs every year, but only non-lead shot is allowed. Archery only for deer. My buddies got mad cuz the dropped a lot of coin on these heavy shot ammo only to be told it wasn't allowed.

And that's when the fight started.

Anyway, here's a few pigs of of hagerman. Google hagerman deer and check out the studs that come of this place. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/15/f6fd531b5136bb798f4d4a4a8d1ef9b6.jpg

[Ballistics in Scotland]

My first thought was zinc, but it would still have to be alloyed with something lighter, which is uncommon, or otherwise reduced in weight. But why shouldn't it be hollow, or composite? Early in the 20th century the Meade ball had a hollow sphere in its centre (copper?) to reduce recoil. It looks to have been suspended in the mould on some sort of stem, which was then removed and the hole filled with a lead pellet. Occasionally it was filled with an explosive compound, although that sounds like anything from a mediocre to murderously bad idea.

It wouldn't be difficult to die-cast a "tree" of smaller aluminium balls, and then, without removing them from the sprue, sandwich them in a full-diameter mould to case the heavier metal around them. Steel balls would have to be hollow. That is a lot of complication, but I do not suppose these things are (or were) cheap. There is a possibility that the bullet's mass wouldn't be precisely centred. Try marking the top with felt-tip as they lie, and then roll them around to see if there is a tendency for that mark to come to the top, like a crooked dice. It would affect accuracy more in a rifle than a smoothbore.

Presumably that game warden with the mendacious instrument couldn't make a charge stick. But that wouldn't be great consolation after the hunting season was lost.

Flax seed? If it was hemp it could get you locked up. Maybe the seeds would get crushed in firing, but various authorities have reported that rice used as a wad material (can't think why) gave abnormally high pressures. I equate this with sand, which will stop a bullet in less distance dry than damp. Dr. Franklin Mann experimented with sand as an inert substance to fill the airspace in cases, presumably with a barrel which had come to the end of its useful life. He found that it tore off the case-necks, which departed with the bullet.

[wildflilghts]

Ballistics in Scotland- We can get zinc alloyed with copper and aluminum from Rotometals.
It's called Zamak 2 Ingot (Aluminum 4%, Copper 3%, Zinc 93%). Rotometals is a castboolits sponsor.
http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/zamak%202%20ingots.htm short video included.

[Blood Trail]

I have a bunch of kirksite that was thinking about trashing. Didn't know you could use it.

[Blood Trail]

Are those slits in the cup cut all the way thru?

[cpileri]

down to, but not through, the base of the wad

[Blood Trail]

down to, but not through, the base of the wad

Have you recovered the wads? If so, how did they look? I'm attempting to create a similar load(s) with .600 cal and .45 cal balls.

[cpileri]

I did, and chronicled that here in the forum. but I forget where, you'd have to search my posts and pictures.
C-

[Blood Trail]

I looked back and couldn't find any pics of spent wads.

Did you ever get to run these thru an animal? I bet they're hell on deer.

[cpileri]

let me take a look, give me some time though.

No, havent had a chance to test them on flesh yet.

[cpileri]

Im just checking my pics. This may or may not be the one you want.

[cpileri]

OK, i beleive those are end-on shots of the fired wads in he above pic. Hope that helps.

[Blood Trail]

OK, i beleive those are end-on shots of the fired wads in he above pic. Hope that helps.

It did! Thanks brother.

[cpileri]

no prob. post back w your results from what you are trying!
C-

[Hogtamer]

C,
I just found a .610 RB iron RCBS mold that I'm going to try with zinc. With shrinkage I'm hoping they will cast to .600. Expansion with RB is nill anyway so if it works I may be able to come up with a high speed 2-ball with less recoil than the lead version. You've already noted a bunch of IFs in this proposition but hope springs eternal! I'll keep you posted. BTW, got my Zlug mold from Tom @ Accurate yesterday so stay tuned to that thread too.

[cpileri]

yes, I am interested. Keep us posted.

[AllanD]

The Cerro low temp alloys that I know of all contain some percentage of Cadmium