.44 cold test

[44man]

I have noticed in all of my shooting life that I never get as tight a group from any gun, rifle or handgun, when it is cold because I do my load work when it is hot.
I have always used standard primers with 296 in the .44 and .45. I always agreed with the guys that say cold weather needs a hotter primer, well maybe, if it is way below zero. The temperature dropped out of the bucket this week and it is real cold with a bitter wind. With nothing to do I loaded some Lee boolits using mag primers. After scraping the ice and snow off the bench I shot some of each at 50 yd's. What I noticed, as expected, was the standard primer loads are not as tight as in the summer and the mag primers tightened only a little. Normally the mag primers shoot groups 3 times larger. I can see there might be a temperature point where they converge but no groups will be as tight as in the summer.
Since my cold weather shooting is only hunting, I am staying with standard primers.

[BABore]

Lubes can also change groups that much in hot/cold extremes. So which is it? Lube, primer, or both?[smilie=1:

You can tell, somewhat, by keeping the ammo warm and gun cold, then do it vise versa. I like to do a cold test when I'm working up a load during the summer. Once you get your load nailed down, put the gun and ammo in the frig or freezer to simulate hunting season conditions. You may have to run your loads a bit hotter to compensate or choose a more compatible lube.

Of course it all could be from your now rock hard rubber grip causing you to flinch too.:-D

[44man]

ME FLINCH! :mrgreen:
I use Felix and Carnauba red. My Felix is soft and doesn't seem to get too stiff when cold. Anyway when I cleaned the barrel there is no leading. I agree that lube might open my cold weather groups but I don't want to make it softer because I don't want it to run in the warm house.
The whole thing is that I have tested all kinds of primers in the .44 since 1956 and have always found standard primers have shot tighter no matter what powder I use. The .45 seems to follow along but the .357 or any caliber above the .45 likes the mag primers better.
I am not worried about the larger cold weather groups but was interested in whether or not the mag primers would work better.
It is not cold enough to find out. I would like to see actual 50 yd groups with both primers from someone living in way below zero conditions.

[Bass Ackward]

Yep. Tried for three years and couldn't beat it.

The higher the velocity per a caliber, the wilder the effect too. If you slow that bullet down to 800 fps, it will shoot fairly close to the same year round. Or harden your bullet some more. The faster the cartridge, the wilder the results too.

I never could beat that phenom until I changed bullet designs. Then the exact opposite happens when it gets warm. Of coarse I could always harden, but that's not what I want to do. So olgival designs or round flats shoot better for me in the summer, and designs with a shoulder do better in the winter.

I just have to grab the right box for the right temperature. :grin:

[454PB]

As much as I enjoy shooting, it was too cold here this A.M. to even consider it. It was -23 in Helena, and -33 in Butte (where MT Gianni lives). Our guys in Alaska have my respect having lived in -40's for the last few weeks.

I was up near mt. charlie's country Saturday night. I played music in Great Falls, and drove home at 1:00 A.M. in a blinding blizzard, visibility was down to 100 feet at times.

I went out and shoveled all the walks and driveway yesterday. It was only -4 at the time, but with a 20 MPH wind, it felt much colder than the -23 today. It's fun to pitch snow into a 20 MPH wind, plus you get to do the same snow all over again when it quits blowing.

[BD]

I confess that I never did much shooting for groups when it was below zero. My use of magnum primers was mainly to prevent the snap, 1...2..BANG! and the snap.."poof" I'd occasionally get with CCI 300s and 296. In the end my preference for cold weather in the .44 mag were WLPs.
BD

[44man]

Our cold season here is a lot shorter then Ohio so I don't worry about it. They still shoot good enough for what I need on deer. The ones I loaded today with the standard primers even had some loose cases with low seating pressure, I never sorted them. That will account for a little larger group too. All of the mag primer cases felt more even. If I had loaded enough and sorted by pressure, the spread would be even larger because the standard group would be tighter.
It is just the primer thing I am interested in because it never mattered what bullet/boolit I used. Even a poor boolit that would not group good would go really wild with a mag primer. I would like to know at what temperature point the mag primer starts to shoot better, if there is a point.
From all of the testing I have done I don't believe at this point that a mag primer is needed in the .44 or .45 and is detrimental to good groups.

[Bass Ackward]

I would like to know at what temperature point the mag primer starts to shoot better, if there is a point.
From all of the testing I have done I don't believe at this point that a mag primer is needed in the .44 or .45 and is detrimental to good groups.


After my primer testing with case neck tension and crimp, I found that magnum primers worked better than standard primers in my 44s with .002 case neck tension or less. Or .007 and more. from 2400 on down. Bear in mind that is with the case anneal I was running at the time.

Now if I wanted to play with a low capacity ball, like AA#5, then temperature did have a lot more to do with what primer worked best as position sensitivity increased in cold weather.

Basically case neck tension, and the brass anneal that you have with that case neck tension, determined which primer worked best for me.

[odoh]

If mag primers provide hotter, longer duration flame ~ w/the same powder charge wouldn't the pressure and resultant velocity change also? If yes, then perhaps the accuracy would deviate too?

[44man]

Odoh, yes it does and I always worked loads again with a primer change and results are the same as when I use the same load for both. In the summer, mag primers have always tripled group size.
BD, I have never, ever had that happen in years and years of shooting the .44. That is why I am interested in the cold weather part. When does it happen? -10, -20 or does it have to be colder?
Not to worry though, global warming is here! :mrgreen:
Bass, yes, neck tension throws a wrench into the mix. Annealed cases in the revolver can make 2 things happen. The hotter primer will either blow the boolit out before a burn or ignite the powder faster depending on what you have. Then recoil can move out a boolit changing the case capacity from shot to shot. I need hard brass for the heavy loads I shoot.
When I was working on the case tension measuring thing I annealed a few cases. I had to throw them out because I could not retain the boolits. I just did a slight color change too. I had one heck of a time getting the cylinder out of the Ruger.

[JesterGrin_1]

Oh great now this is what I really needed to read that the temp will change the impact of the round lol. I am glad the norm here is 40's to the 100's F lol.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill go this way. Ive tested ALOT of 44 mag loads too in warm and cold weather. You may find that at a certain charge level a standard primer will give best results with a powder bullet combination but it impossible to make a standardized statement as just dropping the charge by a grain or changing the bullet weight by 20 grains changes everything in load developement. Ill use my wc820 44 mag results for an example. My buddy and i sat for a day on the chronograph and on the bench with 4 different 44 mag guns and three differnt 250 swcs. What we came up with isnt scinetific either but there was a tendency for all guns to shoot there best and more consistantly over a chrono like this. If we had the powder charge down to 19 or less grains a mag primer was about a nessesity to get good standard devieation readys and accuracy. One the charge was up to over 20 it didnt matter as much how hot the primer was and some guns did better with a hot primer like a cci 350 and some liked milder primers. Bottom line was lower pressure loads with slow burning powders takes more spark to burn clean and consistant that higher pressure loads do. Now id about bet if a guy took one of those low pressure loads and used a stad. primer in below zero temps youd run into problems with accuracy and even reliability. I dont do a bunch of plinking in real cold weather but it does get below zero during hunting season around here. I stock cases of mag pistol primers of every brand because as you know they are needed in the big cases like the linebaughs and the big smiths. If i have to give up a half an inch of group size at 25 yards in a hunting load to insure reliablity in the field i think its a small trade off and anymore will use at least a ww primer in a hunting load and try to tweak my loads around a fed mag primer. In the big linebaughs i dont fool with anything but ccis 350s in loads with ball powders. My thoughts are that these guns may be called apon to protect me someday or be used on a once in a lifetime hunt and again the most important thing is they go off properly and because there used mostly for larger game a little bit off accuracy trade off means nothing to me. I know John Linebaugh himself once told me all he uses in all his 500 loads are cci 300s and hasnt had a problem but i have witnessed hang fires in them with big loads of 110 with std primers and cant see what a guy is gaining by trying to make them work when the mag primers are no more expensive. John will also admit that it doesnt get as cold where he is then it does here and hed probably consider mags for his loads in real cold weather. I guess my main point here is that generalizations are impossible to make when it comes to primers. Every powder and every level you use that powder at has an optimum sprark need (i dont know the technical name for it) But if your using something like 110 or aa9 and your loading down even a touch ive seen better results with mag primers in any big case.

[44man]

That sounds reasonable! Things can change what happens real fast. That is why I didn't want to add in all kinds of loads and powders, just proper loads of H110 and 296.
It is also the reason I have always said to try different primers once everything else is worked out as far as a load goes. A small charge change and a little load work with the hotter primer might be needed to make a comparison.
When I first started loading the .44 I used nothing but mag primers. I kept it up when 296 came on the scene and didn't find the difference until I started shooting IHMSA. The accuracy at 200 meters and change in my scores sold me on the standard primer. I was able to then hit the shoot off chickens at 200 that I could not touch before. I was shooting Hornady 240 gr bullets.
I have done all the work with my .475 and the mag primer is a MUST for top accuracy with 296. It is a complete reversal from the .44.
Then I also found the 45-70 BFR shoots best with a LP mag primer. I use 4759 in it.
I don't want to make a blanket statement, just want to clarify at what point those funny sounding shots occur with H110 and 296 with a standard primer. Is it because the load is too light? Is it cold weather? Is it a light boolit? Is it poor neck tension? Or just a different gun?
My reason is that I never had it happen but keep reading about it so there must be something going on. I have gone through 9 .44's since 1956 from Ruger's to S&W's and a DW. All were shot in very cold Ohio winters without a hitch even after I started to use the regular primer.
Just trying to compile what others have found and what causes a dud round.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, yes, neck tension throws a wrench into the mix. Annealed cases in the revolver can make 2 things happen. The hotter primer will either blow the boolit out before a burn or ignite the powder faster depending on what you have. Then recoil can move out a boolit changing the case capacity from shot to shot. I need hard brass for the heavy loads I shoot.
When I was working on the case tension measuring thing I annealed a few cases. I had to throw them out because I could not retain the boolits. I just did a slight color change too. I had one heck of a time getting the cylinder out of the Ruger.


Well, just because you are you I went and softened 13 cases by annealing them dead soft. I only needed 6 for the test, but they shrank because I abused them and it took 13 to get 6 good ones.

I used one of my 250 grain bullet designs (I have four in this weight class) and I loaded 25 grains of 296. As I fired, I pulled the unfired cases and checked the OAL.

The bad news? The cases stuck badly. But I knew that was gonna happen. The good news. I didn't lengthen.

So what does this test tell me? I don't know what this tells me. I usually use a full crimp and my designs have a .070 long crimp groove. This crimp groove allows me to .... fold my brass in so that the fold actually seats the bullet. This is a full contact crimp. On real short crimps, it is much harder to crimp without loosening tension by having the case round into a small space. Especially if your anneal is crappy.

So you probably would form an opinion that crimp doesn't matter much when it's really the type of crimp crimp that is the issue. I suppose that I should have used a 600 grain bullet or something to be comparing apples to apples, but at least this will make you think. Nobody in their right mind should anneal this poorly and it still worked.

(Sorry, I updated this and one of the grand kids sent it before I finished so they could get to another screen.)

[BD]

44man, 10 below, 18 grains of 296 under the lee 310, CCI 300 primers gave fits and starts about 50% of the time. Same load, except CCI 350 primers, all good but one hangfire out of 50.
Same load but WLP primers, all good. I didn't date this notes but I believe it was winter of 1996 or 1997. Since that time I've used WLPs in the .44 mag exclusively with no issues lighting 296, H110 and a lot of WC820.
BD

[felix]

Bill, keep in mind that those primers, for the most part, were made back in the mid 90's. That's when everyone made them in killer quantities. It seems every 10 years they make them, whoever they are. This time around, though, the idea is that each flavor made MUST meet and pass MIL specs. I know via email from Federal that they specifically had to change their cup. So, this means that every primer type now bought should be verified as a new "branded" primer. ... felix

[BD]

Felix, that was the first of several issues I've had with CCI large pistol primers. I've given up on them. If the Federal pistol primers are all going to have harder cups I'd better husband the ones I have now. I have at least two revolters which need the federals to be 100% reliable. Both have slightly off center firing pins but the federals will always go bang.
BD

[frank505]

Hey Lloyd it is -17 here this morning, so once in a while it will get cold here. Iv'e never had a hangfire or "boomer" shots with 820 in my 45(21.5 grains of 820, Fed 155 and a 310 keith). There is very little air space. The 44 does well at subzero(21.5 grains of 820 and a 250 Keith), did not chrono, in cold weather was shooting at about 500 to 600 yards and load was accurate. I do not remember the exact yardage to the rock, but it is a long ways. I have quite a time doing any chronographing in the winter, either its sunny and the sun is low on the horizon or its very windy and cannot keep the chrono upright.

[Lloyd Smale]

why dont you just plant a few fricking trees out there to block the wind. Take a ride over here and take truck loads of saplings home with you and you could make millions selling them out there. Frank id had more problems with 110 then with 820 but have had problems with it too. None that showed up as odd sounds or squibs but loads that swung 300 fps over a chrono with light loads and a standard primer. bumping the charge up or swithching to a hotter primer took care of it but the funny thing is thata they shot excelent groups out to 50 yards even with the big swings. I would think that your load of 21 grains of 820 with a 300 has got enough pressure to not need them.
Hey Lloyd it is -17 here this morning, so once in a while it will get cold here. Iv'e never had a hangfire or "boomer" shots with 820 in my 45(21.5 grains of 820, Fed 155 and a 310 keith). There is very little air space. The 44 does well at subzero(21.5 grains of 820 and a 250 Keith), did not chrono, in cold weather was shooting at about 500 to 600 yards and load was accurate. I do not remember the exact yardage to the rock, but it is a long ways. I have quite a time doing any chronographing in the winter, either its sunny and the sun is low on the horizon or its very windy and cannot keep the chrono upright.

[crabo]

What a great thread. I appreciate all the experience and observations here.

Crabo

[44man]

BRRRRRR! you guys can keep that below zero stuff. :mrgreen:

[bearcove]

If you shoot a cold gun for a group its not cold by the time you are done. Try a shot every 10-15 minutes. You sit in the truck, Leave the gun outside.

[44man]

Seems to be the cold ammo more then the gun. Five shots with cold ammo would not see any warm up in the cylinder even if the gun warms. The barrel would be the warmest.
Anyway, from what everyone is saying I would switch to mag primers when the temp starts to approach zero degrees. Maybe even 10 or 20 degrees although I never had a problem at 20*.

[405]

Why do these threads show up when it's winter?:-?

No way for us average minions to test or analyze the mechanics or chemistry at work when comparing shooting warm vs cold. I guess you'd need one of those closed thermodynamic testing chambers for the chemistry and some pretty sophisticated equipment for testing the mechanics.

Just observations, assumptions and anecdotes-

Chemical reactions (powder and primer) are slower when cold
Mechanics (lock time) slower when cold
Coefficients of friction (bullet to bore) different when cold
Bullet to bore fit (coefficients of expansion) different in diff. temps
Shooter comfort and concentration affected by extremes in temps

Since I mainly shoot faster (flake type) powders in handgun at lower load densities-- cold temps don't seem to affect load performance much for me. The assumption is that slow, magnum type and/or ball powders in larger cases are most affected by temp changes and may show higher shot to shot standard deviations of pressure in cold temps?

The coldest I shoot in is -10 to about 0.... while the ammo/ballistics/accuracy seems unaffected when cold it just seems plain hard to shoot well when bundled up or gloved up or really uncomfortable:(

[lovedogs]

Guess I've always figured that those who publish manuals and have more equipment than I do to test all the variables know more than I do about this stuff. I've just always used mag primers with all slow and/or ball powders and I've not had any problems. I live in Mt. where I often hunt in pretty cold weather. I've not seen any poor accuracy with mag primers. My .44's in Contenders and a Marlin shoot right at MOA and that's as good as I'd expect. My varmint rifles all shoot under 1/2 MOA which I figure is pretty good, also. What really convinced me about mag primers is a conversation I had with a tech at Ruger. A fellow I knew had loaded a .270 using H4831 and regular primers. I'm not sure about why this isn't a good combination but the rifle blew up and was ruined. The Ruger guy said this happened once in a while when someone did this and said it never happened using mag primers. You can't get enough H4831 in a .270/130 gr. load to blow up a Ruger using a mag primer. But with a regular primer it happens often enough that Ruger is aware of it being a bad idea. So I use mag primers when recommended. I'm not rebel enough to want to risk life, limb, or firearm just to be different and go against validated research.

[JesterGrin_1]

It is kinda hard to swallow this. Since it stands to reason that a Mag primer will burn hotter than a standard primer which will raise pressure over a standard primer. And I am pretty sure that pressure is what blows up guns not the lack of it.

[405]

Why some guns blow up is always a mystery- most of the time it has been attributed to over charge or wrong ammo/wrong cartridge.

But, I think there is a phenomenon in revolvers that goes something like.....with very slow or ball powder or in cold temps where the primer forces the bullet hard into the lands where it lodges momentarily before the powder charge gets to progressive burn stage.... Kaboom!

Another theory deals mainly with rifles where a very light charge of slow or ball powder causes a detonation while a much larger charge of the same powder in the same cartridge shows no problems and shows normal pressure curve. That one has been much more difficult for the labs to duplicate but have come up with some interesting explanations or possibilities.... has to do with the primer detonation fragmenting powder granules into finer, faster burning granules and forcing those forward into the charge column near the bullet's base- then the much faster burning charge begins a compression wave which actually bounces off the base of the bullet- causing a progressive burn rearward into the main powder charge resulting in a very sharp and large pressure spike .... Kboom.

The example explanation by the Ruger guy about the 270 and 4831 could be similar to the revolver example.... cold temps, regular primer, large charge of slow powder where bullet is forced into the leade or rifling by the primer- the bullet lodges momentarily- then the powder goes to progressive burn resulting in a very sharp and large pressure spike.... Kboom. Whether or not a mag primer would solve that problem??? no clue

I think I'll pass on trying to duplicate those scenarios and don't shoot much slow progressive or any ball powder- just perfectly happy to give up a few fps and not worry about that type thing. :coffee:

[44man]

Lovedogs, you are right about the Marlin. Mag primers do shoot very well out of it. It is only in the .44 and .45 revolvers that I find a great difference in accuracy. And that has been with every one I owned.
I imagine the Contender works good with them too.
The difference using WW primers does not seem to be as great as the CCI or Fed mags.

[felix]

Blowup are not a mystery, just a little difficult to explain a specific reason after an occurance of any kind of SEE unless facts are guaranteed before the occurance in question. ... felix

[JesterGrin_1]

Felix what government office are you running for again lol.

[felix]

Yeah, Jester, upon another look at that last sentence I wrote, I surely would be a candidate for some office. I never seen such double talk, or could it be a mimic of the William Faulkner? Maybe a position somewhere in Mississippi would suffice. ... felix

[runfiverun]

the cold will affect some powders also
h-110 blue-dot etc and cause velocity variations
alot of the guys here idaho use 4227 insteas of h-110 cause the velocity seems to stay near the same summer and winter

[44man]

runfiverun, I have a test for you to do in the summer. Load a .44 revolver with either 4227's and shoot 100 yd's from a rest. Shoot about 10 shots so the gun gets real hot and tell me what happens.
If you have a chrono, set it up to watch and also keep looking at your primers. Don't fool with 1 or 2 shots, get the gun hot.
I suspect you will be changing your mind real fast.

[Bass Ackward]

Yea. H110 / 296 needs to be modernized. At least my cans do. Ramshot has their balls converted over. So it can be done. You don't need a magnum primer with them and they are much less temperature sensitive than what are now older technology balls.

[HCL]

I dont know the chemistry but I can tell you for a fact that living up here if you work up loads in the winter, you can pretty well bet that you will be having issues in the summer.
Spend several hours on snowmachine, dust snow off pistol, fire several cylinders full, repeat in summer temps on ATV and you can very well be pushing brass out of cylinder with stick. (dont ask how I know).
I do all load development in summer and adjust my point of aim for winter, much safer. I use H110 with mag primers for the big bores that spend the outdoor time with me. Can tell you that the Extreme rifle powders from Hodgdon work, even with crono not much differance between summer and subzero temps.
I tried 4227, claims extreme powder but it was not as consistant as H110 with the temp variations, not to mention like 44man says, you get the pistol hot and funny things start happening real fast.
Mike

[odoh]

Maybe off-topc, I recall reading a warning statement in the powder segment of Speer Reloading Manual #11. To wit ~ '. . . remember that pressures may increase dangerously under extreme cold (-20*F) conditions with loads of double base powders. Do not fire cartridges that have been exposed to such extreme cold. They will be safe if placed in a pocket and warmed with body heat '.

That is very old info and may no longer apply. I recall a writer in the '50s saying he would warm his ammo under his armpit in extreme cold.

[454PB]

I've hunted Elk in -25 degree temperatures, with a 20 mph wind. I couldn't even find my arm pit, let alone dig ammo out of it!

[odoh]

I've hunted Elk in -25 degree temperatures, with a 20 mph wind. I couldn't even find my arm pit, let alone did ammo out of it!

Hear ya. My last Elk hunt, my mustache and beard iced up from my breath moisture in sub-zero temp. Got my attn when I tried to eat lunch :shock:

[lovedogs]

44man hit on another important point... there's a difference in primers. WW primers are sort of a mag primer right off so they will oft work well with the powders we are discussing. And all ball powders aren't equal, either. For an example, look at all the ball the military uses. Also note that the primers they use with those powders are of a mag type. They do that for a reason.

[runfiverun]

44 man
so what i think you are saying is that as 4227 heats up it tends to increase the burn
rate?
this would lead me to believe that it has a fairly high nitro content

and i dont think that anybody has really answered the question of how to keep velocities
consistent in winter[below 15] and summer [above 80]
has anybody seen anything with 2400 etc with a mag primer?

i have a really hard time setting up a chrono in the winter up here our range faces
south [i didnot design it]
with the wind and the snow it never ever seems to work quite right

[frank505]

winter time I wear my sixguns in a shoulder holster under my coat. We did notice the gun is not as warm as you think it should be. I was warm, Helly Hansen base layer, a wool shirt (heavy) and a Cabelas windproof Wooltimate jacket. I have a infrared thermometer and can test these temps now. More data is needed as they say.
One more test, put some 500 L ammo in the freezer all day, about nine o'clock that evening we tested them, just five rounds each of 25 grains of WC 820 (lot # 47320) CCI 350 and Fed 155. all with a 450 Keith bullet. There did not seem to be any difference in recoil, we videoed it and there was some difference in muzzle flash. Not much of a test really. Changed my powder measure bar from rifle to pistol and found quite a bit of powder clumped up where the powder falls down through the expander die into the case. (Dillon powder measure) This may have a bearing on velocity variations in the 500 Linebaugh more than temperature or primers. I did test quite a few powder drops after cleaning the measure, 10 drops weighed 250 to 250.2 grains. I am not sure why the powder clumped up, but will look at it very closely from now on. No there is no oil and this measure has been in my use since the Dillon 550 B came out in the late 1980's and has loaded a box or two.

[44man]

Runfiverun, I had a lot of experience with the 4227's in the .44 shooting IHMSA. It seemed to be the powder of choice so I tested loads and got some super accuracy at 200 meters, however I was shooting slow and doing a lot of walking. The gun would go crazy at the shoots. I would hit the first target dead center, then a little lower on the next and so on until I was down in the dirt. At 200 meters I had to keep adding elevation clicks until I was 16 clicks over normal and still hit 50-60 yd's short. Primers got flatter and flatter.
As the gun heated my velocity was going higher and higher with each shot, later confirmed with a chrono. It was so bad I thought something was wrong with my gun.
I reduced the load to 21 gr's with a 240 gr bullet and it was no help, still flattened primers too. Primer changes did not help either.
I switched to 296 with a Federal 150 and the next shoot was Ohio state which I won with 79 out of 80.
The powder works super in the .357 max and a lot of other calibers but it will NEVER go in my .44 or .45 Colt again.
There were a lot of guys using 25 gr's of the stuff at the shoots and when I thought about it, I never seen a single one of them do better then 15 or 20 out of 40.
Yes, it is accurate for a few shots when shooting casually and might be the reason some guys recommend it in the .44. But then again, you can shoot a ton of it at 25 yd's and never learn what happens. What it does in weather changes I don't know because I dumped it.
I will never recommend it.

[runfiverun]

that could explain what was up with my 445 it never seemed to settle down with 4227
untill i hit 300 grain bullets.
i've started to work with aa1680 and think it will work fairly well with the supers
i'll probably go back to 2400 in my other stuff.
not always a velocity fanatic but i always look for consistent results.
and versatility.

4227 kind of got me wondering when i tried it in 44 special with cast
it acted like i was only burning about half of it.
ijust have never been a big fan of the coatings on ball powder and the way it fills in the barell
but if the gun likes it i will put with a lot of pain.

[44man]

I have kept track of the primers I have bought for my SBH since I bought it long ago. After the short time with 4227, it has shot nothing but 296 except for maybe 100 or so light loads for play.
I shot it last week and have reached 57,665 shots with it. It is now getting hard to keep track of. ( Kind of like deer kills, after around 360, numbers get lost.)
The gun shows no wear, no end play, no extra slop in the cylinder, no wear in the bore that I can measure, still will shoot an inch or under at 50 yd's and has recently shot two 1" groups at 100 yd's. The very edge of the forcing cone has a little sandblasting, not bad though. I cleaned the rest of the cone and it is shiny.
I do lube the pin, front of the cylinder and ratchet with STP every time I clean it.
I shoot under max at the accuracy point, never looking for high velocity. Since quitting IHMSA I shoot only cast boolits. This gun has killed a pile of deer too.
For many years now it is fed 320 to 330 gr boolits with 21.5 gr's of 296.
I tried 2400 and never found the accuracy plus it is dirty.
Don't fear ball powders, I don't know what I would do without them. If you ever wear out a Ruger, you are doing something wrong. :drinks:

[Whitworth]

It has been enlightening! Thank you!

[Bass Ackward]

If you ever wear out a Ruger, you are doing something wrong. :drinks:


Boy I disagree here. (new concept for me huh?) If you have one that doesn't wear itself out.

I have a friend that has only about 8000 rounds through one and you can move that cylinder almost 1/16" in any direction. Nothing would have helped that one. A 44 that looks like a 50 from the cone. And it shoots now, finally. I've got one going back to the factory for several issues.

Not every Ruger is made to the standards that your is. And this goes for all makes. If a gun isn't made with good alignment, the bullet is going to correct that. I don't care who made it, or with what steel it is made, what lube you use, or what projectile metal you use or don't use, or what powder. It's going to loosen itself up and wear in what ever areas needed until it corrects. And you can't do a darn thing about it except NOT shoot it. Then and only then will the wear stop. No matter how gentle your loads are.

In fact, adding STP or any lube will just force all the wear to your cylinder throats and forcing cone. Same as with fire lapping. That's why you NEVER want to consider fire lapping a handgun until it is partially broken in. It relieves the stress on the gun by enlarging the throats and cone until the bullet can exit smoothly enough.

I know folks dislike Lee Precision. But in essence, over the decades, Ruger has been the Lee Precision of firearms. Reasonably priced, innovative products that when you get a good one, you are fine, but locating that fine piece may just take a few till you get there. And in the end, you just have to get by with what you got. But if you don't get there, then it's wear, wear, wear until you do. :grin:

Much better quality today since they ungraded machinery a few years back. Same with everybody that has. But every gun still requires break-in no matter what you do. It's end strength and life expectancy will depend on how much and what locations it has to do it.

[44man]

I don't have a range rod but can see any misalignment through the barrel with a good light. I have not found any in all of the Ruger's I have owned or worked on but it could happen.
The very worst were the bad batch of Dan Wessons. I have had to move many locking bolts on them.
Any bad enough out of line can be seen through the barrel and it is a good idea to look at any new gun. I am convinced even .0005" can be seen. If you move your eye back and forth, etc, and see any edge of a chamber, best to fix the gun.
I hope all of you know the gun should be empty or you qualify for the Darwin awards. Or is it "Smile, wait for flash?" Naw, I like "Pull trigger for Spanish!"
Bass, you guys have just been unlucky. The STP keeps the pin, ratchet and front of the cylinder from wearing from the turning motion and from the hand. It will not stop or correct an out of time gun. That should be noticed with the first shots with the spray from the gap. I know darn well some will hit the face.
To NOT lube and hope the gun will fix itself dry seems a little silly. I would rather fix the gun first. No way I am going to break in a gun by letting boolits wear the side of the forcing cone.
All it takes is a flashlight to find. [smilie=1:

[Bass Ackward]

Jim,

What I was told by pistol smiths was that it isn't just static alignment. It's what happens under pressure. How the actions swell and what they do depends on how they were heat treated and how well the alignment was and such. Most single actions by the design swell so that the barrel turns down and points lower. Which is why a single action rises when you shoot it compared to most double actions that comes straight back.

A lot of people also think a single action shoots lower with higher pressure rounds is just a product of barrel timing. But this doesn't explain left and right movement or grouping.

It's why the two 44s I had cracked the forcing cones around 60k even though I was running standard pressures. The barrel was worn thin (and hardened from heat and impact) just in front of the cone which eventually wore thin enough that the cone cracked. Actually the barrel cracked at the threads and the cone simply couldn't hold it. I didn't have a scope at that time and I couldn't see it with the naked eye until the barrel was removed. A simple light test for cylinder alignment would not show it as my gun was good like that.

So bottom line, even if alignment is perfect, what happens under pressure is why ransom rest testing is useless to me. I need a gun that can perform well in a human hand without being grip sensitive, not a machine vise. But how it reacts with what loads, and what metal choices will determine more how the gun wears or breaks in.

[runfiverun]

when you say double action do you mean pistols?
if so i would think that some of that straight-back would be your slide movement
and the up would be because of air pressure differences
recoil would be exactly the same if you turned the pistol over?

this flexing would be away from center of mass?
or towards the area with the softest metal?

runfiverun