Army finally replacing the 9mm?

[JHeath]

I hadn't seen this posted yet:

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20110828/NEWS/108280315/Pistols-shot-replacing-M9

Maybe this is Remington's chance to sell the Model 53 .45 that the Marines and Navy wanted 100 years ago, if they can get the R51 design to work:

110157

[robertbank]

M&P 9MM/.40cal combination would be my guess with the .45acp version available for those who care. US ddesign and build carries a lot of weight in selection process. Unless NATO changes calber the nod goes to the 9MM.

Take Care

Bob

[osteodoc08]

Plastic 9mm of some variety likely. Lighter weight. Higher capacity.

The beretta is fine sidearm, but has been eclipsed in several areas including weight and capacity.

Id is also like to see more emphasis on an American made sidearm.

This is has been talked about before and speculated on over the years. We shall see what happens.

[rintinglen]

This falls in the category of "I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it," for me. Military budgets being what they are, pistols having a priority amongst the brass slightly below the quality of liquor at the Officer's club, and generally favorable opinions of the Berettas by most users all unite to limit the likelihood of a new service pistol to about zero in my opinion. Still, it is nice to ponder "what if's" once in a while.

[Artful]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?246712-Army-Wants-Harder-Hitting-Pistol

[Scharfschuetze]

It took something like 10 years of design and testing for the military to finally adopt the M9 in the late 80s. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes this time.

[JHeath]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?246712-Army-Wants-Harder-Hitting-Pistol

Seven page thread . . . how did I miss that? Thanks.

[Pb2au]

If you don't feel like reading the thread that JHeath mentioned, it kinda reads like this; Please click on picture for full comedy effect.
110176

[seaboltm]

The Beretta M9 was eclipsed when it was adopted. The M9 basic design goes back to the 50's. In the 80's we had the CZ-75 (but of course the Cold War was still on, and that was a no-go), and we had polymer (but the world was not ready for polymer i the 80's) HK VP 70 and of course Glock. All of these were superior to the M9.

My guess is the M&P is a strong contender, particularly in 40 S&W. The vast majority of US law enforcement use 40. Still, it is a compromise between the 9mm and 45.

[Elkins45]

The whole point of a 9mm was NATO compatibility. No way a 40 S&W leaps that hurdle.

How many articles have we seen about replacing the M-16/5.56?

[FergusonTO35]

The military already has a bunch of other pistols besides the M9 in service. Sig Sauer P228, Glock 19, HK, and even the Ruger P95 have been issued. Personally I think they should've adopted the Browning Hi-Power a long time ago.

[AricTheRed]

The military already has a bunch of other pistols besides the M9 in service. Sig Sauer P228, Glock 19, HK, and even the Ruger P95 have been issued. Personally I think they should've adopted the Browning Hi-Power a long time ago.

A retired (at the time of the trials and employed as a US govt contractor involved in ordnance testing and involved in the tests discussed) Marine ordinance officer I used to know told me about the three finalists. Baretta 92, Browning hi-power, and Sig P226. Browning failed catastrophically before test was complete. Imagine slide in the eye... The Baretta was no longer in serviceable condition but was functional-ish, and the Sig was in excellent condition. However the US could get two 92's with spares for each Sig purchased.

Money talks I guess and the best sidearm may not always be what one has to hand when the chips are down.

[Scharfschuetze]

Interesting info about the HP coming apart in the testing. When shooting against a British Army pistol team several years ago, some of the troopers hinted that they couldn't use really hot ammo (SMG ammo as I recall) as there was that possibility. With that in mind, I keep my reloads for my personal HP below maximum.

During our fielding of the M9 in the late 80s, we were ordered to change out slides after 600 rounds and then 250 rounds at one point due to some slide separations experienced by a sister service SOF unit. My team was at the John Shaw shooting academy at the time. Half the team took the new M9s and the rest of us took our 1911A1s. Needless to say, while my weapons sergeants were changing M9 slides out, the rest of us were shooting our WWII era "legacy" weapons.

We finally were able to fully use our M9s without changing slides out after a slide stop modification was installed on each pistol's frame and a modified slide installed to prevent slides in the eyes. While I never saw a slide separate on an M9, I did have a left side locking lug sheer off of on my M9 while in theater sometime ago. My team experience four such failures in just a few years at one point. A foreign unit that I was an adviser/trainer to was constantly plagued by this same problem. My son's M9's double action mechanism failed on him while in the Sandbox earlier this year.

All the claims and hoopla over the M9's superior reliability over the 1911A1 when it was adopted, now ring pretty hollow after spending time with the M9 in the field and in training.

Hope the new pistol has some 1911 DNA in it.

[Artful]

. Browning failed catastrophically before test was complete. Imagine slide in the eye... The Baretta was no longer in serviceable condition but was functional-ish, and the Sig was in excellent condition. However the US could get two 92's with spares for each Sig purchased.

Money talks I guess and the best sidearm may not always be what one has to hand when the chips are down.

HiPower
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHPandHighPressureAmmo.htm
http://hipowers-handguns.blogspot.com/2008/06/9mm-hi-power-longevity-or-making-it.html


http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/true_story_m9.htm


The Army eventually made headway and in November of 1983 placed a Formal Request for Test Samples (FRTS) to several commercial arms makers in the US and around the world. Eight makers submitted a sample lot of 30 pistols by the deadline of January of 1984, and by August of the same year the testing was completed. (NSIAD-88-46) Of the eight makers who submitted test samples, 4 were technically unacceptable and 2 removed themselves from competition. The two surviving companies were SACO (importing Sig-Sauer pistols at the time) and Beretta. (NSIAD-88-46) After a controversial bidding process (some allege Beretta was tipped off about SACO’s bid so they could lower the per unit cost on their candidate by $1.00 and win the contract) the Army signed a contract with Beretta for 315,930 pistols. This number was later increased to 321,260 pistols. The new pistols would bear the military name of M9. (NSIAD-88-46)

for more interesting reading
http://vuurwapenblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/M9-Pistol-Trials.pdf


For the purposes of this analysis, allegations of conspiracy or other forms of treachery between

the JSSAPC and Beretta Company will not be considered. This includes allegations of covert testing and

the leaking of competitor’s pricing to Beretta due to favoritism by the judges or a bias towards the

Italian manufacturer due to the 1978 Memorandum of Understanding between the US and Italy.


There is simply no available evidence that exists from a reputable source at time of writing that

supports the argument that JSSAPC and Beretta were in cahoots. This is not to rule out the possibility of the

conspiracy being true, only to acknowledge the nature of such claims make their proof nearly impossible

to obtain. It may very well be true that the US Army was particularly interested in certain Italian sausage,

but for now this possibility does not have sufficient backing to be considered.


A 1986 investigation by the US General Accounting Office was unable to find evidence in official documents or

in interviews with personnel involved with the testing (1).


The decision to declare the Beretta 92 over the Sig P226 when the latter performed better is a sign that the Army had an

unusual goal for the program. Instead of trying to find the best handgun or even the best handgun for the money,

the Army was looking for the cheapest handgun that could pass a set of requirements.


This method requires that most criteria be requirements and that these requirements be clear and measureable.

A competitor that performed far better than the requirements was treated as equal to one that simply fulfilled them.


It also leaves room for entries to be disqualified for barely missing certain requirements while they have excelled in other, possibly more important areas.

This method is good for choosing a product that will have limited uses, not ideal for evaluating a product that will be used in variety of places

by a variety of users over a long period of time.


http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf

[PAT303]

Can the American Government do anything without bribes and scandal involved?,is anyone there even remotely competent?.From this side of the ocean all we hear is cost over runs and failures,I can't believe the JSF has cost 400 Billion dollars and is still not operational yet,now they are going to spend more money replacing a handgun that nobody wanted in the first place,I really feel sorry for you,the American taxpayer. Pat

[Stephen Cohen]

Well I may only be an Australian, but even I know America had the finest wartime side arm, the 45 cal 1911. I'm a great believer, if it isn't broke don't fix it.

[garym1a2]

You should know the Glock 21SF is much better than the 1911.

Well I may only be an Australian, but even I know America had the finest wartime side arm, the 45 cal 1911. I'm a great believer, if it isn't broke don't fix it.

[robertbank]

Aside from wanting a base in Italy cost is usually the deciding factor. The 1911 is a very good design but it is heavy and costly to build - unless of course the US were to buy Norinco 1911's. and that isn't going to happen any time soon.

There are really only two pistols currently in the mix that are light, shoot the 9MM cartridge and would be at a price point even the US Military could not turn down and that would be the Glock 17 or the S&W M&P FS. Both are high capacity, dependable firearms. They require a minimum of training, both are easy to disassemble and service and even the dullest in the regiment could strip either down to the frame and re-assemble with little or no training.

With that said the US Military will end up buying some Spanish/Italian/Serbia pistol not yet produced to acquire officer drinking rights in a Southern Italian resort jointly owned by members of the armed services committee. Sen. Feinstein will then announce she intends to investigate the procurement process as she believes the US military should carry flowers not handguns into battle. Pres. Obama will announce her appointment in the Rose Garden ending his speech with the words God Bless America. PM Harper of Canada will immediately congratulate the US on their decision, agree the pistol is an exciting concept and order the Cdn Army to drop plans for the SIG 226 adoption and purchase the new pistol sight unseen. He then will announce his retirement. The Toronto Star will then report the Harpers have just bought a villa in Southern Italy.

Take Care

Bob
ps In the year 2068 it will be announced the first five of 50,000 Getrob SA pisitols will be delivered for final testing to the US Army. Cost of the pistols to date totals $45 Billion dollars. One young newly minted General was overhear to say, "Who ordered these?". Meanwhile in Canada it is reported the Inglis Hi-Power may have to remain in service for another decade as rumours swirl the new Getrob pistol has not yet successfully fired a round.

[nicholst55]

The military already has a bunch of other pistols besides the M9 in service. Sig Sauer P228, Glock 19, HK, and even the Ruger P95 have been issued. Personally I think they should've adopted the Browning Hi-Power a long time ago.

Most of those 'other' pistols were relatively small contracts to arm other entities - the Iraqi police and military, for example. AFAIK, no US forces have carried the Ruger. The Sig P228/M11 represents a very small perentage of Army pistols - perhaps 10%.


There are really only two pistols currently in the mix that are light, shoot the 9MM cartridge and would be at a price point even the US Military could not turn down and that would be the Glock 17 or the S&W M&P FS. Both are high capacity, dependable firearms. They require a minimum of training, both are easy to disassemble and service and even the dullest in the regiment could strip either down to the frame and re-assemble with little or no training.

Until Glock offers a pistol with an external (thumb) safety, I seriously doubt the Army will even consider it. The S&W M&P series are available with both a thumb safety and a magazine disconnect/safety, so they might well be an option.

However, as someone said earlier, it ain't gonna happen. With defense budgets rapidly shrinking, I fully expect the generals and politicians to concentrate on doing two things: 1) Reducing pay and benefits, especially for enlisted service members, and 2) buying "big ticket" items (tanks, airplanes, trucks, ships). Got to keep the pork barrel full, don't you know. I expect the current effort to field a new pistol to amount to nothing more than a lot of hot air.

[robertbank]

I expect the current effort to field a new pistol to amount to nothing more than a lot of hot air.

So you are telling me I should sell futures in Italian wine. Is that it?

Take Care

Bob

[NVScouter]

While the 9mm isnt my favorite round it was easy to teach nooby shooters with. My issue is with that M9 I carried for 15 years. While a tanker the alluminum frame was constantly being damaged in my chest holster. Ever pull a shiny sided pistol that would imediately cut the crud out of your hand? Being max size for a tank 6'0 190(then) space is limited and the M9 is a wide bulky pistol.

After transfering to the USAF Security Police I carried it more and that milspec ammo drops like a tank after 75y. Again in full duty belt the bulk of that thing makes fast draw and comfortable carry harder. My Austiran made Glock 22 is 100X the weapon that M9 is.

[JHeath]

$45 Billion dollars. One young newly minted General was overhear to say, "Who ordered these?". Meanwhile in Canada it is reported the Inglis Hi-Power may have to remain in service for another decade as rumours swirl the new Getrob pistol has not yet successfully fired a round.

Lol, the whole story. You left out the temporary resurrection of the Avro Arrow as the keystone to the bargain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_arrow

The news items indicate a different caliber is wanted. This could be larger and slower like the .45, because larger and faster would recoil too much. But HPs are not an option for military ammo, and I'm guessing that defeating body armor is now a consideration. So the caliber could be smaller and faster AP like the 5.7, which also allows for more rounds in the mag. and less weight in the supply train. Or maybe the US will adopt the 7.62x25, which fits nicely with your Serbian/South Italian theory since Zastava is Serb and the Tokarev design is convertible between 7.62 and 9mm. The DoD can goober it up with safeties and laser mounts and call it "modular," which is the new "tactical."

I nominate Clark M. for the committee! Somebody second the motion! Then they can adopt a Tok-based pistol with simple barrel changes between 7.62x25 AP, 9x19 NATO, and 9x23 Win. with large doses of Power Pistol under a 158. Proven technology.

[FergusonTO35]

The Ruger P95 in DAO form has been issued to Army tank crews. How about the Ruger SR9 as the new sidearm? It weighs less, holds two more rounds, is cheaper, and has a thumb safety.

[thxmrgarand]

Let's all work this year in achieving a pro-gun US Senate and in two years a pro-gun White House. That way we can all buy the surplus M9's when they are replaced. When working with senate candidates this year ask them if they would support the surplus guns being sold by CMP through the NRA!

[FergusonTO35]

Great idea. However all the personnel I know who carried the M9 think that scrap would be the best fate for them!!

[robertbank]

Lol, the whole story. You left out the temporary resurrection of the Avro Arrow as the keystone to the bargain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_arrow

The news items indicate a different caliber is wanted. This could be larger and slower like the .45, because larger and faster would recoil too much. But HPs are not an option for military ammo, and I'm guessing that defeating body armor is now a consideration. So the caliber could be smaller and faster AP like the 5.7, which also allows for more rounds in the mag. and less weight in the supply train. Or maybe the US will adopt the 7.62x25, which fits nicely with your Serbian/South Italian theory since Zastava is Serb and the Tokarev design is convertible between 7.62 and 9mm. The DoD can goober it up with safeties and laser mounts and call it "modular," which is the new "tactical."

I nominate Clark M. for the committee! Somebody second the motion! Then they can adopt a Tok-based pistol with simple barrel changes between 7.62x25 AP, 9x19 NATO, and 9x23 Win. with large doses of Power Pistol under a 158. Proven technology.

Thanks for the link to the Arrow. Reading the link brought back memories.

My guess is despite the wishful thinking expressed in the article the 9MM cartridge will soldier on. I can't see the NATO countries changing out their handgun inventory given the economic times we all live in and the fact a handgun is not exactly leading edge must have inventory. Useful but not worth the millions of dollars to consider a newer cartridge. The US Army will be lucky just to replace the M9 with another 9MM pistol given current budget constraints.

The Army ought to be considering replacing their varmint rifle with something more suitable for their purpose. Now there is where there are options that would have a meaningful affect on the battlefield.

Take Care

Bob

[JHeath]

The Army ought to be considering replacing their varmint rifle with something more suitable for their purpose.

Bob

No chance of that since the Congressional authorization for war adopted Geo. W's language: "Dag-Blasted Varmints!"

[JHeath]

. . . but maybe the DoD will adopt Lipsey's new Single-Six .327 for the same reason.

[Multigunner]

The Arrow had promise but was also fundementally flawed.
The roller skate landing gear collapsed on landing during test flights.

If you want a high wing jet with thin wings the fuselage mounted gear works best.
They couldn't use that type of gear for the Arrow because of the position of its weapons bay.

Despite the Dan Akroyd film on the subject Avro did not discover the area rule principle. The first planes to use it were the stretched F-102B prototypes that became the F-106.

The .40 S&W cartridge has had too many recalls for manufacturing defects and castrophic failures due to cracked caseheads. Its a magnum level load that pushes the limit of present pistol designs.
They may have worked the bugs out by now, but I'm not that impressed with it. Controlability of SMGs in .40 has also been an issue.
The SMG is basically on its way out due to advancements in body armour, and increasing availability.

Some SIG pistols failed at the ejector port due to a corner with a too small radius, some contracts were lost. The fix was a simple one so later production pistols are okay.

The pressure level of NATO STANAG 9mm ammo is the main problem with older pistol designs.

I like the Browning P-35 best, but the older brownings required an upgrade to handle the STANAG cartridges.
That beefed up milspec Browning is the basis for Brownings in .40 caliber.
The German alloy framed pistol based on the P-38 also required a beefed up frame, the older alloy version is usually found at reduced prices.

With the body armor situation being what it is a pistol cartridge with AP ability may become the best option.
A PDW is a better choice, with pistols more for close range defense from civilian assassins, infiltratrors and such and police type raids in urban pacification.
They developed the M1 Carbine because most who were issued a pistol couldn't use it well enough to be effective, I doubt thats changed all that much.

[robertbank]

. . . but maybe the DoD will adopt Lipsey's new Single-Six .327 for the same reason.

Perfect! Easier on training too. All the guys have to do is remember to count to six then reload.:-o

Whatever cartridge they do eventually settle on in a rifle you can be sure it will be on an AR platform with a piston driven bolt. Personally I think the US Army will be shooting their Italian wonder guns well into this century. If Hillary gets in she likely will remove the option to shoot bullets. Reloaders will rejoice as components will then become available again. You folks will have ammunition components but no guns to shoot them in. Hillary will have taken them all in to sell as scrap to fund" National Ladies over the age of 65 Day".

Take Care

Bob

[JHeath]

Wow, turns out Canada recently considered resurrecting the Avro Arrow: http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/straighttalk/archives/2012/09/20120916-094625.html

. . . if somebody can put the Arrow back on the table, then the Remington Model 53 .45 should be an easy sell.

Next: a Pedersen device for the AR.

[Multigunner]

[img]
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/archives/sunnews/straighttalk/media/2012/09/20120916-094625-g.jpg[/quote]

Great in the air, landings....... well not so much.

Its likely that

[Multigunner]

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/archives/sunnews/straighttalk/media/2012/09/20120916-094625-g.jpg

Great in the air, landings....... well not so much.

Its likely that anything useful in the design has already been used in later aircraft.

[robertbank]

Wow, turns out Canada recently considered resurrecting the Avro Arrow: http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/straighttalk/archives/2012/09/20120916-094625.html

. . . if somebody can put the Arrow back on the table, then the Remington Model 53 .45 should be an easy sell.

Next: a Pedersen device for the AR.

The Arrow will be resurrected about the same time Americans elect a Afro-American for president.....wait a minute they did, OK let me rephrase that, the Arrow will get resurrected when Americans elect a woman for President,,,,,,is Hillary running? Naw not even then. We are to busy subsidizing the building of the F 35 which is the latest US Air Force Money pit for taxpayers. I guess it is OK makes the locals feel good when they fly overhead at the start of NASCAR races and CFL games.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

Might as well resurrect the B-58 Hustler. The B-58 was a much better aircraft and actually flew and landed without crumping up like a chinese lantern.

[Combat Diver]

My two cents is that the program won't go anywhere. Took 40+ yrs to adopt a new pistol after WWII when they first wanted to replace the M1911s and that was with a older cartridge. There will be no money to buy the pistols.


CD

[Multigunner]

The 1911 is still the favored side arm of some elite units.

Since the 9mm handguns are not holding up as well as had been hoped this could be one reason.


9 X 19 MM Hirtenberger AG

WARNING: Austrian ammunition maker Hirtenberger AG has put the word out concerning a quantity of its 9x19 mm ammunition that is "unique for use in any handgun." According to a November 7 BATF Industry News release. "The ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns...This ammunition should not be fired." The ammunition was produced for the British Ministry of Defense from 1990 through 1992 for use in submachine guns "under adverse conditions" and carries the "L7A1" designation. While BATF is unaware of this ammunition being imported into the U.S., the maker advises that up to 12 million rounds were sold recently on the world surplus market.

The ammunition covered by this warning can be identified by the following headstamps:



12 o’clock position: HP

3 o’clock position: 90, 91, or 92

6 o’clock position: L7A1

9 o’clock position: a cross within a circle

For additional information contact BATF at (202) 927-8320.

Source: BATF Bulletin, November 7, 1996

American Rifleman, January 1997; page 6

IAA Journal, Jan./Feb. 1997; page 4

No wonder 9mm pistols of the older Browning P-35 design have had problems with British issue 9mm.

Most Browning desined pistol chambers have some intrusion into the chamber wall at the feed ramp. This leaves a small portion of the case head unsupported.
Glock carried this potential flaw over to their line up.

If any of this Hertenberger ammo shows up cheap at gunshows keep the above warning in mind.

Finn and some German hpt loaded SMG ammo could be fired in handguns, because these used a slow powder intended for high velocity from the longer SMG barrels. When fired in a handgun some of the charge remained unburnt when the bullet left the muzzle, so chamber pressure did not reach the maximum. The Finns even used this ammo in their blowback 1907 pistol chambered for the lower pressure 9mm Browning long.

[TXGunNut]

Rumors are true, here's a spy photo of a prototype.

110406

[robertbank]

I'm ahead of the curve...I have one of those!

Take Care

Bob

[JHeath]

Rumors are true, here's a spy photo of a prototype.

110406

Recoil is too high for this weapon to ever be adopted by the military.

[I'll Make Mine]

Recoil is too high for this weapon to ever be adopted by the military.

Depends what it's chambered for. I bet you'd barely feel it if it were chambered in 5.7FN (not to mention it'd hold 8-9 rounds).

Given the current trends, if a new US Military issue sidearm does come out of this, it seems (to me) almost certain to be in a PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) chambering similar to 5.7FN (if not as small as 4.5 mm) and use alloy or (more likely) polymer construction; it'll use a case with no bigger head than 9 mm/5.56 and possibly smaller, potentially a plastic cartridge case, and fire AP bullets as the default loading (which will keep surplus ammunition off the civilian market due to restrictions on AP handgun ammo), and it'll share magazines with a larger PDW so ammunition doesn't need to be segregated based on which PDW a unit carries.

And it'll suck in ways that aren't currently even imaginable...

[Artful]

Maybe they will go larger Caliber but sabot ammo for AP
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/2030.html

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/2030b.gif
Cut-away drawing:
Both the saboted (left) and full caliber versions of the M/2030 cartridge are designed be shot from the same weapon.
Caliber can now be changed by changing cartridges only without any modifications to the weapon
- which may be of very simple and economic straight blowback type!

And with the right sabot/bullet you could make a mini Ram-Jet with solid fuel so it will pick up velocity after leaving the barrel for flatter trajectory with bigger projectile.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/Images/rampart.gif

Yea, 45 caliber at 1500 fps at 100 yards - but you launch like a regular 45 acp at 900 - got to love science.

[Petrol & Powder]

Just because the army wants and new pistol doesn't mean the army will get a new pistol.

[robertbank]

Just because the army wants and new pistol doesn't mean the army will get a new pistol.

Not if the Congressmen and Women want to continue to get contributions from the arms industry they won't.

It will be new, need several hundred million dollars to design and test, be late in delivery and over budget by a factor of 2x. The US Marines will immediately declare the pistol won't meet their needs and go and order 5,000 1911's from the highest bidder. The Navy in turn, not to be snubbed, will order Sig 226's because their version comes with a cute anchor carved neatly in the slide. Appearances are everything. If you are going to lead the parade you gotta look good.

Almost immediately gun magazines will compare the new pistol to the 1911 and begin writing articles about the new cartridge and concealed carry guns.

Take Care

Bob

[I'll Make Mine]

I like the idea of the sunk-base cartridge, and the ability to fire both ultra-high velocity small caliber sabot bullets and full size pistol-type bullets from the same weapon (and the simple blowback action, though bolt weight will surely be an issue), but as the article suggest, this is going to take fifteen or twenty years to catch on, if it ever does. I've seen the concept of a ramjet round before, I read about it in a Dean Ing book (Pulling Through, a collection of stories and articles aimed at surviving the next war) around 1980. Seems likely to be more practical with solid fuel, though the changing internal geometry of the ramjet duct as the fuel burns off has to be accounted for. I personally think a rocket assisted projectile (like a Gyrojet round, only fired at pistol velocity and ignited by a conventional cartridge) is more likely to be reliable, and will have better terminal characteristics. Once again, though, this isn't anything that will even be presented as an idea in the current design round; this is mid-century stuff (though I think I could make rocket-assist bullets in .35 caliber and up right now).

[Petrol & Powder]

I like the idea of the sunk-base cartridge, and the ability to fire both ultra-high velocity small caliber sabot bullets and full size pistol-type bullets from the same weapon (and the simple blowback action, though bolt weight will surely be an issue), but as the article suggest, this is going to take fifteen or twenty years to catch on, if it ever does. I've seen the concept of a ramjet round before, I read about it in a Dean Ing book (Pulling Through, a collection of stories and articles aimed at surviving the next war) around 1980. Seems likely to be more practical with solid fuel, though the changing internal geometry of the ramjet duct as the fuel burns off has to be accounted for. I personally think a rocket assisted projectile (like a Gyrojet round, only fired at pistol velocity and ignited by a conventional cartridge) is more likely to be reliable, and will have better terminal characteristics. Once again, though, this isn't anything that will even be presented as an idea in the current design round; this is mid-century stuff (though I think I could make rocket-assist bullets in .35 caliber and up right now).
That's cutting edge science and a very unique solution in search of a problem. But hey, they like spending my money.

[Deep Six]

Didn't the Army just have a design competition for "the M9 replacement" back in about 2007 or something? The competition mandated the entries be chambered in .45 Auto only. That's where the FN FNX series guns came from. The competition fizzled without any winner chosen or contracts issued. I'm very glad it resulted in the FNX though. I bought one in 45 Auto about 4 months back and have fallen in love with the thing. Feels good in the hand, shoots super smooth with no more perceived recoil than a 9mm, lights-out accurate (for a handgun anyways), and 100% reliable with any full-power ammo I've tried, including some oddball reloads. And most importantly, 15+1 capacity of 45 Auto! I know which one I'd pick if I were the Army...

[Dan Cash]

You should know the Glock 21SF is much better than the 1911.

Boy, you are wanting to run a dozer through a feed lot.

[tazman]

There is an article on Fox news about this very topic but isn't very informative. Here is the link.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/12/army-to-replace-mm-pistol-with-more-reliable-gun-packing-better-knock-down/?intcmp=latestnews

[Petrol & Powder]

You should know the Glock 21SF is much better than the 1911.

Despite the fecal matter storm that statement is bound to create; I agree that the Glock model 21 would be an excellent choice.

[Artful]

That's cutting edge science and a very unique solution in search of a problem. But hey, they like spending my money.

Actually it's not a new idea ... But the firearms industry is very slow to adopt new idea's in America
Original story written in Finnish 05.01.1991 by Juha Hartikka was published in magazine "Urheiluampuja" in 1991. The story was translated in English 28.11.1997 by the writer. Updated 11. July, 1999. Used as a source for December 1999 Small Arms Review (http://www.smallarmsreview.com) (Vol 3 No 3) Page 25: A story based on "2030" concept, written by Alan C. Paulson (http://www.e-sell.com/e-sellpaladin/store/prodinfo.asp?prodid=3566), and to an article in Ronaldo Olive's Brazilian Firepower magazine: "Cartridge 2030", Munição para 2030 (http://www.urbi.com.br/users/olive/18_2030.htm).

and the solid fuel Ram Jet - old tech again
http://www.spg-corp.com/images/decr-6.jpg
-Extremely simple compared with liquid fueled rockets or ramjets? In its simplest form, a SFRJ is basically a tube with a fuel grain cast in it.

-Higher fuel density in the solid phase for pure hydrocarbons and even higher if metal additives are used

-Easy inclusion of metal fuels such as boron, magnesium or beryllium which raise the heat of combustion and/or the density and therefore the density impulse capability compared with liquid ramjets

-Solid fuel acts as an ablative insulator, allowing higher sustained combustion chamber exit temperature levels (and hence specific thrust) with less complexity

-Fuel is stored within the combustion chamber allowing for more efficient packaging and higher mass fractions than liquid ramjets

-No need for pumps, external tankage, injectors or plumbing for fuel delivery

Look at GECO BAT "Blitz Action Trauma" cartridge for a good start
http://i49.tinypic.com/vhx7d0.jpg
discarding plastic nose cap for reliable feeding
Thrust Nozzle and ram scoop already in this design
http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/wolfganggross/cutaways7/th_cutaways7008.jpg

or PMC Ultramag "cookie cutter" rounds
http://www.ammo-one.com/sitebuilder/images/38PMCookieCutter-463x281.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss292/Mwinter919/ultramag003Medium.jpg

All you need is a solid fuel cylinder inserted in the bullet that will ignite upon the firearm discharging.

and as a non expanding round design it might even make it past Hague Convention, and the Geneva Convention guide-lines.

[True.grit]

Springfield armoury xd 45 if they have any sence.

[I'll Make Mine]

Original story written in Finnish 05.01.1991 by Juha Hartikka was published in magazine "Urheiluampuja" in 1991.

So, about eight years after Dean Ing wrote about it in Pulling Through. SF writers invent a lot of stuff; how many folks here know Robert A. Heinlein (Stranger in a Strange Land) is credited with inventing the waterbed, and Arthur C. Clarke (2001: A Space Odyssey) with identifying geostationary satellite orbits (where weather and communication satellites are parked)?

[robertbank]

So, about eight years after Dean Ing wrote about it in Pulling Through. SF writers invent a lot of stuff; how many folks here know Robert A. Heinlein (Stranger in a Strange Land) is credited with inventing the waterbed, and Arthur C. Clarke (2001: A Space Odyssey) with identifying geostationary satellite orbits (where weather and communication satellites are parked)?

Not to mention Sir Thomas A. Crapper the inventor of the modern flush toilet or the more obviois Earl of Sanwich inventor of, well you guessed it the sandwich.

Take Care

Bob

[garym1a2]

What's wrong with a gun that always works, plus holds enough rounds to get the job done. 1911's are neither.

Boy, you are wanting to run a dozer through a feed lot.

[NVScouter]

So, about eight years after Dean Ing wrote about it in Pulling Through. SF writers invent a lot of stuff; how many folks here know Robert A. Heinlein (Stranger in a Strange Land) is credited with inventing the waterbed, and Arthur C. Clarke (2001: A Space Odyssey) with identifying geostationary satellite orbits (where weather and communication satellites are parked)?

R.A Heinlein also hated hippys and was bombarded by them after that book series. (Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Stranger in a Strange Land, Cat Who walks though Walls).

The series Prophets of Science Fiction is great if you want to see how Science Fiction has created our reality. They think it somebody smarter builds it.

[pmer]

Could you reliably ignite that ramjet bullet whiz bang and would bullet rotation mess up accuracy? Couldn't it be designed so that one, two part projectile could engage armor or a soft target? Shedding the outer part after weakening the body armor. Might as well ask for the whole 9 yards.. I see this could be used in the bear defense threads too.

[MtGun44]

Just increase the order size for the Marine CQB 1911 from Colt and stop piddling
away our money solving a non-existent "problem". The best answer has been
known for over 100 years, yet folks insist on "solving" this "problem" again and again.

M9 was a mistake, driven by throwing a 9mm bone to the Europeans for "interoperability".
Recognize the mistake, change only the quantity number in the USMC order page and
ship to US Army. Problem solved.

Bill

[garym1a2]

they could buy 10 Glocks for the price of one CQB1911.

Just increase the order size for the Marine CQB 1911 from Colt and stop piddling
away our money solving a non-existent "problem". The best answer has been
known for over 100 years, yet folks insist on "solving" this "problem" again and again.

M9 was a mistake, driven by throwing a 9mm bone to the Europeans for "interoperability".
Recognize the mistake, change only the quantity number in the USMC order page and
ship to US Army. Problem solved.

Bill

[robertbank]

Bill the US wanted a base in Italy so you got the M9.

The 1911 is to expensive to make, in the wrong caliber, and weighs to much with limited capacity. Time to move on. I suspect it would be tough to buy the Glock when Smith & Wesson has virtually the same pistol in their M&P at the same price point. Both pistols are reliable, inexpensive weight less and shoot the 9MM round. The 9MM cartridges work in the sub guns and NATO has gone 9MM.

Take Care

Bob

[Artful]

From Cabela's - for comparison
M9's civilian version 92FS Regular Price: $599.99 - $769.99

1911's
Taurus 1911 $668.47
S&W 1911 e series $979
Ruger SR1911 $769 - 999
Rock Island GI Series 1911 Pistol $549

Smith & Wesson® M&P Semiautomatic Pistols Regular Price: $549.99 - $769.99
Smith & Wesson® M&P Compact Pistols Regular Price:$549.99 - $599.99

GLOCK Gen 4 full size pistol Regular Price: $599.99 - $699.99
Glock Gen4 Compact Pistols Regular Price: $599.99 - $649.99

FN FNX Regular Price: $619.99 - $1,299.99

all seem about the same price point on the low end - which is what we should be buying a basic pistol

of course this could all change in a short period due to new technology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7ZYKMBDm4M

[garym1a2]

USMC price for Colt 1911's about $2200 each. Glock price to Cops program, $424 each. Military price will be $300 or less.

From Cabela's - for comparison
M9's civilian version 92FS Regular Price: $599.99 - $769.99

1911's
Taurus 1911 $668.47
S&W 1911 e series $979
Ruger SR1911 $769 - 999
Rock Island GI Series 1911 Pistol $549

Smith & Wesson® M&P Semiautomatic Pistols Regular Price: $549.99 - $769.99
Smith & Wesson® M&P Compact Pistols Regular Price:$549.99 - $599.99

GLOCK Gen 4 full size pistol Regular Price: $599.99 - $699.99
Glock Gen4 Compact Pistols Regular Price: $599.99 - $649.99

FN FNX Regular Price: $619.99 - $1,299.99

all seem about the same price point on the low end - which is what we should be buying a basic pistol

of course this could all change in a short period due to new technology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7ZYKMBDm4M

[robertbank]

Nowhere city price on a Glock or M&P $300.
US Military price on a Glock or M&P $3.500 after several delays and redesigns asked for by various interested groups aka Congressmen and Women from States outside of where the guns would be produced.

The low end 1911 prices are for guns not made in the good old USA. Every day price for Norinco Police Model used by the Philippine Police $349 Cdn. Estimated wholesale price landed in Vancouver, BC $300. What are the odds of the US MIlitary buying 1911's from the Chinese....slim and none.

Take Care

Bob

[Artful]

Could you reliably ignite that ramjet bullet whiz bang and would bullet rotation mess up accuracy? Couldn't it be designed so that one, two part projectile could engage armor or a soft target? Shedding the outer part after weakening the body armor. Might as well ask for the whole 9 yards.. I see this could be used in the bear defense threads too.
If you can ignite tracer's why not solid fuel module - the rotation adds to the accuracy provided the thrust is centered on the projectile and burns evenly. You could put a penetrate in a major caliber but I don't see it doing as well as a saboted small diameter penetrater component alone which you could boost with just gunpowder to at least twice and possibly 3 times the velocity of a regular full size/weight projectile.

http://www.ammo-one.com/223Timbs.html

[Mik]

I bet the military could buy glocks for about 350 a piece.

The 1911 is great, its a piece of american history. But I can guarantee you, no company will ever again design a new gun that is anything like it...because they can easily do much better.

8 round capacity? Disengaging the safety to conduct a safety check? Slide stop lever where it can't be reached? Barrel bushing and bushing wrench? Beaver tail? Technology has eliminated all of these "quirks" which the 1911 has.

Oh, but its accurate! Accuracy is the most overused term when it comes to comparing handguns. There aren't many people out there who's ability to shoot exceeds a pistol's capabilities. Great, the 1911 is capable of 1.25 inch groups at 25 yards. Who cares when most shooters at that range consistently shoot groups in excess of 4" , no matter what gun they use.

[pmer]

In the article I thought they were describing a Gen 4 Glock too. But they didn't like the plastic cased magazine for lack of positive engagement to the grip frame. And I think it has to hit at 50 meters as well. I wonder if it would be easier to train a soldier hit that far with a 1911 or a DA/SA pistol rather than a DAO Glock 21 or MP.

[Mik]

In the article I thought they were describing a Gen 4 Glock too. But they didn't like the plastic cased magazine for lack of positive engagement to the grip frame. And I think it has to hit at 50 meters as well. I wonder if it would be easier to train a soldier hit that far with a 1911 or a DA/SA pistol rather than a DAO Glock 21 or MP.
I would guess the 1911 on account of the trigger and sight radius.

Not that its impossible to hit at that distance with a DAO, the guns are mechanically capable. Its more of a mental exercise in marksmanship than anything.

[Petrol & Powder]

The 1911 was a great pistol design and a part of American history. However, I strongly believe that better pistols are now available. It's not that the 1911 is bad, it isn't - it's that better options now exist.

NOW, if you want to talk about the 45ACP cartridge, that's different. Despite the age of the design it still has a lot to offer in terms of military use. It's proven and widely available.

I'd really like to see our military get the best gear we can give them.
The best gear is not selected by nostalgic feelings.
The best gear isn't necessarily a U.S. design or even manufactured in the U.S. (although for safety of our supply it should be made here)
The best gear may not be the most cutting edge, but unproven, technology on the planet.
The best gear may require that we abandon some specifications that are written for the sole purpose of intentionally eliminating some designs.
Price shouldn't be the only factor but price is A factor. We have to buy a lot of them.

This is the real world! Not some high school popularity contest.

[robertbank]

Petrol & Powder (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?26174-Petrol-amp-Powder) I agree with all your condition except the part about the 45acp cartridge being widely available. Outside the US maybe in the Philippines. Europe I doubt it. The problem is consistent supply. Until NATO decides to make a switch logistics don't favcour the .45acp cartridge.

In any event none of us willever be on the chosing panel and it may be a long time before the M9 does get replaced.

Take Care

Bob

[Petrol & Powder]

True, but the 45ACP remained in our supply system even after the M9 was selected. I don't believe we (the U.S.) draws from the supply networks of other nations even in times of war. NATO standardization was created so that supplies could be shared if needed, but in practice we bring everything with us.

[robertbank]

True, but the 45ACP remained in our supply system even after the M9 was selected. I don't believe we (the U.S.) draws from the supply networks of other nations even in times of war. NATO standardization was created so that supplies could be shared if needed, but in practice we bring everything with us.
True but you have to remember troops often are cross embedded. For example US Army personnel will serve with and under Canadian officers and Regiments and visa versa. Commonality of weapons do have advantages. This is not unusual and supply chains are inter mixed in theater as well. I think we have to be mindful the pistol is not top of mind when it comes to military hardware. I can't think of any advantages the .45acp cartridge brings to the table over the existing 9mm round other than it has been around almost as long. There are a few disadvantages.

Take Care

Bob

[Petrol & Powder]

Agreed, handguns are way down on the list of important supplies in that environment.

[Combat Diver]

Makes you wonder then how we kept our troops supplied with .45 ammo before we adopted the 9x19 and sent our guys to laison with other nations? We did it before and can do it again. In that case one of the arms rooms on post can keep some M9/M11s on hand to issue out if needed as we adopt a new service cartridge. It will take about 10 yrs anyway to field the new pistol if adopted to all Active duty units, then theres the Reserves and Guard to fill out.


CD

[Scharfschuetze]

I used a 1911A1 (with issue ammo) as late as 2005 on a deployment with an army that still used the 1911A1. While that would be unusual for the Big Army, Combat Diver can attest to some unusual situations that SF finds itself in and the flexibility that that requires.

I also recall shooting issued 45 ball in the late 80s and 90s that was reportedly made in Israel so 45 ammo is not the problem in returning to or maintaining the calibre within the force. One of the reasons that comes to mind is that some of the Israeli ammo (TZZ headstamp as I recall) was apparently a bit too hot as we received a TWIX in the summer of 1988 prior to a deployment to immediately stop using certain lots of it. As it turned out, all the 45 ammo that we had drawn for a week's CQB-SFAUC training was from one of the affected lots and we had to come up with alternate training for the week.

[robertbank]

Makes you wonder then how we kept our troops supplied with .45 ammo before we adopted the 9x19 and sent our guys to laison with other nations? We did it before and can do it again. In that case one of the arms rooms on post can keep some M9/M11s on hand to issue out if needed as we adopt a new service cartridge. It will take about 10 yrs anyway to field the new pistol if adopted to all Active duty units, then theres the Reserves and Guard to fill out.


CD

And that would have been when?

Bob

[Combat Diver]

And that would have been when?

Bob

Say from 1945 to the mid 1990s. It took about 10 yrs from 1985 to 1995 that all units had received their M9s. Lots of units still had the M1911A1 during the First Gulf War in 1991. We still hadn't swapped over to the M9 in 1/10th SFGA in Bad Tolz, Germany at the end of 1990 before I went back to 1/5th SFGA in the Gulf. In Oct 2003 5th SFGA had drawn out of depot 250ea M1911s to take Iraq (I know because I signed for them all and had three tuff boxes that I had to keep with me on the C5/C130s).


CD

[robertbank]

And that impacted your allies how?

Bob

[Combat Diver]

Good question Bob, but it is really such a small inconveince if any. If no .45 ammo available I'm sure the host nation would have made arrangements to issue one of their sidearms to the US personnel.

Scharfschuetzer,

I do remember getting the TZZ headstamped .45 ammo in the late 80s in Bad Tolz. Its still around in the system as I got some as late as 2008 from the ASP on FOB Falcon, downtown Baghdad for a hybrid M1911/A1 (frame was a Colt dated from 1916)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/P5210025_rz.JPG

[robertbank]

The whole subject of replacing the M9 comes up every few years as, interestingly enough, does the replacement of the HI Power Inglis up here. The latter were made in 1944/45 when production ended at the conclusion of WW11. The Cdn Army as a ton of them in stores as well as a number with the various Regiments. I suspect some are ready for the scrap heap but I have read where there remains virtually new unissued ones still in stores. Our Navy boys run Sigs but the old Inglis soldiers on with the Army. No doubt at some point the Inglis will be retired but it likely won't be soon. Our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan has to be paid for and we continue to monitor the seas around Africa so I suspect buying a new handgun for the Army is pretty low on the radar. When it happens price will be the driving force with some concerns for utility. My bet it will be made in the US and by polymer striker fired. We have miulitary offset arrangements with the US so it would make economic sense to buy from a manufacturer in the US. It will be 9MM. I suspect the US procurement process follows a similar bumpy road.

Take Care

Bob

[I'll Make Mine]

If you can ignite tracer's why not solid fuel module - the rotation adds to the accuracy provided the thrust is centered on the projectile and burns evenly.

Back when I was doodling with the design of rocket assisted projectiles, I was pretty certain I could get the propellant to ignite -- in fact, the problem was keeping it from igniting too well. Under pressure (in the barrel) the propellant would be subject to gas pressure from the initial propelling charge; that and the heat would ignite the rocket propellant very positively. Use a rocket-type propellant in your ramjet, along with a base plug with controlled perforations that will shed at the muzzle (when the pressure inside the athodyd duct will exceed that behind the bullet), and you'll get 100% ignition.

As long as your design controls flow velocity inside the duct, you should get good acceleration; think of a .44 bullet that leaves the muzzle at 800 ft/sec, with accompanying reasonable recoil, and gets up to 2000 ft/sec by the time it's gone 50 yards. It's probably even possible to scale this down to .30 caliber...

[TXGunNut]

What's wrong with a gun that always works, plus holds enough rounds to get the job done. 1911's are neither.

1911's fill that bill quite well with me. But what do I know? Only been toting one for a little over 30 yrs.

[robertbank]

1911's fill that bill quite well with me. But what do I know? Only been toting one for a little over 30 yrs.

So to answer the question how many people have you killed with your 1911 in the past 30 years? If none then the only job it has done to date is tested a holster and made you feel safe while weighing in at around 50oz. loaded with 7 or 8 rounds.

Take Care

Bob
ps I really think the only real issue is going to end up being price and where the gun is to be made. The caliber will be 9MM for the same reason the change was made last time. The 9MM has been doing the job longer than the .45acp, just as effectively and in significantly more firearm designs.

[Petrol & Powder]

"Testing a holster" ...I'll like that one

[NVScouter]

A Canadian waxing about handgun carry is like an Eskimo talking about Peruvian food.


So to answer the question how many people have you killed with your 1911 in the past 30 years? If none then the only job it has done to date is tested a holster and made you feel safe while weighing in at around 50oz. loaded with 7 or 8 rounds.

Take Care

Bob
ps I really think the only real issue is going to end up being price and where the gun is to be made. The caliber will be 9MM for the same reason the change was made last time. The 9MM has been doing the job longer than the .45acp, just as effectively and in significantly more firearm designs.

[jmort]

That is funny. I needed a good laugh.

[robertbank]

A Canadian waxing about handgun carry is like an Eskimo talking about Peruvian food.

Funny but not true. We have Wilderness Carry and I suspect it is fair to say I have shot more out of holster than most on this forum assuming they don't play IDPA or IPSC and certainly more than a good number of the mall ninhas who carry every day. An American that has any knowledge of our gun laws is about as rare as a passenger pigeon nesting in Wyoming.

Take Care

Bob

[jmort]

111017"I suspect it is fair to say I have shot more out of holster than most on this forum..."

[NVScouter]

When it comes to Moose or fries with gravy I'll bow to your expertise. When it comes to a combat handgun its not the same thing as winderness carry by a long shot. All the people with opinions like " I heard, or a SPEC OP guy I know, or I've shot from a holster in the backcountry" havent carried the mentioned firearms in real world combat zones. Targets are people, many with armor not big fuzzy critters or paper.


The American soldier has a lot of gear, and varies greatly depending on job. Your average infantyman is a rifleman with a 60-80lb pack, and weapon system. As a tanker my weapon systems were machine guns and rifles and pistols. Depending on what I was doing one was better than the other, but I always had my pistol. When I transistioned to MP my pistol was #1 with rifles, shotguns as #2 and machine guns #3. It all depends but on a good day 40lbs of gear was average minus weapons and ammo. Quick Draw McGaw type personel end up shooting themselves or something else. The pistol is a defensive weapon to most US troops. Thats why our special duty folks arent limited to the normal weapon systems. Your average personel troop isnt going to be able to handle a .45 with annual training, that is the only thing the M9 was good for. This is one area the US Marines dominate other services, every marine is a rifleman. Their REMFs burn more ammo then the other branches and it shows.

Mall ninjas are another story but to discount somebody who has 30 years experience of carring one? Comfort is a part of the selection process.....you know the thing we are discussing here. I carry .380 mostly but carry 45LC Rugers in the Wilderness. I have belts streched out from my 45s and have had holsters not cut it and get tossed. Look at sapper plates...most get ditched in zone. Weight does matter.





Funny but not true. We have Wilderness Carry and I suspect it is fair to say I have shot more out of holster than most on this forum assuming they don't play IDPA or IPSC and certainly more than a good number of the mall ninhas who carry every day. An American that has any knowledge of our gun laws is about as rare as a passenger pigeon nesting in Wyoming.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

111017"I suspect it is fair to say I have shot more out of holster than most on this forum..."

If you are going to quote use the brains god gave you and quote the whole post not just half of it otherwise you are just trolling.

Competition shooters draw and shoot more out of their holsters than any other group I can think of. Do you know of any other group that would surpass them?

I am at the range five days a week working on my absence of skills. And the last time you were was....?

Take care

Bob

[Love Life]

Honestly, I'd prefer nunchaku.

In the Marine Corps, pistols are given to officers, SNCO's, a small amount of combat arms personnel, Recon, MARSOC, and REMF. The majority of straight legs get their service rifle. Doesn't matter if they are humping 81's, Pigs, Ma Deuces, or fat ladies. Those pistols are vitally needed at the FOB so REMF don't have to worry about knocking over a rack of movies in the PX with their service rifles...

[robertbank]

When it comes to Moose or fries with gravy I'll bow to your expertise. When it comes to a combat handgun its not the same thing as winderness carry by a long shot. All the people with opinions like " I heard, or a SPEC OP guy I know, or I've shot from a holster in the backcountry" havent carried the mentioned firearms in real world combat zones. Targets are people, many with armor not big fuzzy critters or paper.


The American soldier has a lot of gear, and varies greatly depending on job. Your average infantyman is a rifleman with a 60-80lb pack, and weapon system. As a tanker my weapon systems were machine guns and rifles and pistols. Depending on what I was doing one was better than the other, but I always had my pistol. When I transistioned to MP my pistol was #1 with rifles, shotguns as #2 and machine guns #3. It all depends but on a good day 40lbs of gear was average minus weapons and ammo. Quick Draw McGaw type personel end up shooting themselves or something else. The pistol is a defensive weapon to most US troops. Thats why our special duty folks arent limited to the normal weapon systems. Your average personel troop isnt going to be able to handle a .45 with annual training, that is the only thing the M9 was good for. This is one area the US Marines dominate other services, every marine is a rifleman. Their REMFs burn more ammo then the other branches and it shows.

Mall ninjas are another story but to discount somebody who has 30 years experience of carring one? Comfort is a part of the selection process.....you know the thing we are discussing here. I carry .380 mostly but carry 45LC Rugers in the Wilderness. I have belts streched out from my 45s and have had holsters not cut it and get tossed. Look at sapper plates...most get ditched in zone. Weight does matter.

If you carry a gun one day or a thousand days it is still just one experience done a thousand times. In your last selection process the SIG 226 best the M9 yet the M9 was chosen because Italy agreed to allow the US to have a Navel Base on their territory. Where was that in the process?

Whether you carry every day or not is hardly the criteria I would expect to be taken into account. What you have to carry, as you point out certainly comes into play. Hell I couldn't walk a mile with half the stuff the folks in our infantry carry on their bodies when in theater. If the basis of what they thought were used I suspect they would all opt for a 2nd or 3rd magazine for their rifles than half to carry a handgun with the included ammo.

I appreciate someone may have carried a 1911 for 30 years but that hardly increases the validity of his opinion beyond anyone else. It matters not what anyone here thinks, in any event, but it is not to hard to guess what the major criteria would be for the selection of the next handgun. On a cost basis alone the 1911 loses out to the polymer guns. The best design for the requirements of the Army may not be the deciding factor either. Politics comes into play and politicians aren't likely to be any better able to make a decision on this purchase as they are with any other....at least ours aren't.

Take Care

Bob

[garym1a2]

It's useless to argue with a 1911 owner, they think the 45acp will kill even with a poor hit. They also think you will never miss even under stress so no need for more than 7 rounds in the mag. Myself would rather have a Glock34 with a 19 round mag. I put +2 extensions on all my glock mags.



If you are going to quote use the brains god gave you and quote the whole post not just half of it otherwise you are just trolling.

Competition shooters draw and shoot more out of their holsters than any other group I can think of. Do you know of any other group that would surpass them?

I am at the range five days a week working on my absence of skills. And the last time you were was....?

Take care

Bob

[Finster101]

Honestly, I'd prefer nunchaku.

In the Marine Corps, pistols are given to officers, SNCO's, a small amount of combat arms personnel, Recon, MARSOC, and REMF. The majority of straight legs get their service rifle. Doesn't matter if they are humping 81's, Pigs, Ma Deuces, or fat ladies. Those pistols are vitally needed at the FOB so REMF don't have to worry about knocking over a rack of movies in the PX with their service rifles...


LL it's been over 30 years since I was issued a 1911 and an M3A1. No one in our crew had a rifle or carbine because space inside an M60 is a bit restricted but configurations of the AR platform has changed dramatically since then. My question is do armor crewmen even get issued a pistol anymore? I have heard they do not and get a carbine of some sort which would make more sense. If that is the case I would bet it is a very small percentage of troops that get issued a side arm. Mr Bank is very emphatic about it being a 9mm. Well, that would not give us better stopping power now would it? Seems since that is actually in the headline of the article that may be a piece of the criteria that the 9mm does not meet. After all if it was working why would we need to replace it and not just purchase new M9's which Beretta says it has upgraded.

[NVScouter]

Yes they get pistols and M4s. A driver couldnt have the M4 on him if he wanted to. I've had 5 1911s and with the exception of the crappy Llama 45 liked them. I'm a Glock guy for autos and I'd pack one any day in a better caliber than 9mm over a .45 1911.

What lots of people dont get is the Miltary VS Law Enforcement idea about pistols. LE wants a pistol that can be worn with a 10lb duty belt and 4lb vest and mauver in/out of vehicles. It is considered the main weapon. This pistol should be an effective soft target stopper without over penitrating. Miliary always worries about under penitrating. The maximum firepower that can be used effectively should be brought to bear. The 9mm FMJ loses on both counts thats why I really like the heavier TC style 10mm rounds with the 40S&W being very shootable for your average soldier.

The US political nonsense of how stuff is bought has a lot to do with greasing palms. Look at our track record for the M16, Bradley, and M9. Until the government gets called out with swiss cheese Hummers on the news you dont get armor packages.


LL it's been over 30 years since I was issued a 1911 and an M3A1. No one in our crew had a rifle or carbine because space inside an M60 is a bit restricted but configurations of the AR platform has changed dramatically since then. My question is do armor crewmen even get issued a pistol anymore? I have heard they do not and get a carbine of some sort which would make more sense. If that is the case I would bet it is a very small percentage of troops that get issued a side arm. Mr Bank is very emphatic about it being a 9mm. Well, that would not give us better stopping power now would it? Seems since that is actually in the headline of the article that may be a piece of the criteria that the 9mm does not meet. After all if it was working why would we need to replace it and not just purchase new M9's which Beretta says it has upgraded.

[NVScouter]

It's useless to argue with a 1911 owner, they think the 45acp will kill even with a poor hit. They also think you will never miss even under stress so no need for more than 7 rounds in the mag. Myself would rather have a Glock34 with a 19 round mag. I put +2 extensions on all my glock mags.

While I think large cap magazine have a use the false sense of security they give is dangerous. If you train under stress its a boon, if not you can throw them away just like a 7rd mag. A limited resource is a protected resource. I would never feel undergunned with a .357-45 revolver, or a under 10 round 40-45 caliber pistol. This is the main reason we went to tri-burst over full auto M16 variants. Some people use it effectively and most people throw all thier ammo away under stress.

A pistol is enough firepower to get to a real weapon and then get back in the fight. A SEAL may disagree but that level of training is truely the next step and not a real consideration in the process.

[Artful]

Back when I was doodling with the design of rocket assisted projectiles, I was pretty certain I could get the propellant to ignite -- in fact, the problem was keeping it from igniting too well. Under pressure (in the barrel) the propellant would be subject to gas pressure from the initial propelling charge; that and the heat would ignite the rocket propellant very positively. Use a rocket-type propellant in your ramjet, along with a base plug with controlled perforations that will shed at the muzzle (when the pressure inside the athodyd duct will exceed that behind the bullet), and you'll get 100% ignition.

As long as your design controls flow velocity inside the duct, you should get good acceleration; think of a .44 bullet that leaves the muzzle at 800 ft/sec, with accompanying reasonable recoil, and gets up to 2000 ft/sec by the time it's gone 50 yards. It's probably even possible to scale this down to .30 caliber...


Well, I'd want it in 45 caliber as if you shoot someone up close I want the larger projectile and it's better stopping power in a non-expanding projectile. I just want the larger projectile to go faster than 45 ACP alone can launch it.

[Love Life]

You know, in a war, it is perfectly acceptable to shoot somebody more than once. As a matter of fact, it is recommended that you shoot them until they are dead.

[Artful]

ps I really think the only real issue is going to end up being price and where the gun is to be made. The caliber will be 9MM for the same reason the change was made last time. The 9MM has been doing the job longer than the .45acp, just as effectively and in significantly more firearm designs.

Funny, in my limited experience talking to people who were shot multiple times with 9mm FMJ's from MP38's or MP40's, they seemed to have a higher opinion of 45's ability to terminate a fight in combat - they sometimes showed the puckers where they were "stitched" with 9mm fmj's but I have yet to have a single survivor of a 45 "stitching" by a tommy gun or grease gun talk to me or show me their 45 scars.

That said, I remember taking a LEO carbine course and the instructor's first warning was that even with medivac available he didn't think anyone would survive a carbine wound in the shoothouse unlike a pistol wound.

Pistols are of limited use in other than CQB conditions - and this is the military that's got it on it's agenda due to complaints of failure of the 9mm to prove itself in combat.

It's not some bear/moose protection weapon the military wants. So either the existing guns chambered has to handle a 9mm with a more effective design in bullet that still meets the rules the military has to live with and be more effective, or the caliber/chamber has to change to be a more effective stopper. If the 9mm as it exists today can't cut the mustard in combat then it needs step out of the way.

[robertbank]

Artful I can't respond to what you have been told and I am sure you are sincere in your belief but there is nothing magical about the 45acp. FBI stats, you can look them up for yourself, indicate the .357Mag had or has the best one shot kill ratio of any handgun based upon their sources. Maybe they lie but I doubt it.

Mammals, including man only die from three things outside of old age. Loss of blood , termination of the brains ability to tell the rest of the body what to do or loss of function of a major organ causing death over time. The 357Mag accordong to FBI stats did it the best. I am not recommending anyone go back to a revolver for a service weapon but claiming someone survived a 9MM bullet while another dropped dead on the spot only means on one occasion one died on the spot whole the other lived. I have seen pictures of guys with a nail in their brain who survived and others with a 22lr lodged in their brain and were still active.. That doesn't mean I am going to see if I can survive such an occurrence.

The 45acp is not about to make a major comeback and once the last of the boomers die off (I am one of them) the cartridge likely will fade in use. Why because every kid on the block these days are using Glocks and M&P's and they won't give a rats behind what Great Grandpa did in 1918. Neither will the young Generals who will be making the decision once the last of the M9's rattles off to gun heaven.

Take care

Bob

[NVScouter]

I had a grease gun for about a month before they found out we still had a few in the armory. Only got to shoot it once and I'd trade my M9 for it as a tanker any day.

The .357 with FMJ per military spec has the same effectiveness as the 9mm. Comparing the FBI data with hollowpoints is apples to oranges. Very rarely are expanding rounds used in the military due to the articles of war. They are only used to protect a resource like airplanes or silos.


Funny, in my limited experience talking to people who were shot multiple times with 9mm FMJ's from MP38's or MP40's, they seemed to have a higher opinion of 45's ability to terminate a fight in combat - they sometimes showed the puckers where they were "stitched" with 9mm fmj's but I have yet to have a single survivor of a 45 "stitching" by a tommy gun or grease gun talk to me or show me their 45 scars.

That said, I remember taking a LEO carbine course and the instructor's first warning was that even with medivac available he didn't think anyone would survive a carbine wound in the shoothouse unlike a pistol wound.

Pistols are of limited use in other than CQB conditions - and this is the military that's got it on it's agenda due to complaints of failure of the 9mm to prove itself in combat.

It's not some bear/moose protection weapon the military wants. So either the existing guns chambered has to handle a 9mm with a more effective design in bullet that still meets the rules the military has to live with and be more effective, or the caliber/chamber has to change to be a more effective stopper. If the 9mm as it exists today can't cut the mustard in combat then it needs step out of the way.

[jmort]

"The 45acp is not about to make a major comeback and once the last of the boomers die off (I am one of them) the cartridge likely will fade in use. Why because every kid on the block these days are using Glocks and M&P's and they won't give a rats behind what Great Grandpa did in 1918"

Completely disagree with "logic" expressed. I expect .45 ACP to be around long after we are gone.

[Surculus]

Just increase the order size for the Marine CQB 1911 from Colt and stop piddling
away our money solving a non-existent "problem". The best answer has been
known for over 100 years

You're right, but the Army made Browning change the 45acp from a 200gr bobo at 850fps to 230@900. Browning's original load would be equally effective but experience has shown the original "softball" load is much easier to shoot & be accurate with... Moses knows best! ;)

[Artful]

From the military's perspective


1. Performance Improvement: Request information on potential improvements in handgun performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 50m, terminal performance, modularity, reliability and durability in all environments.

* The handgun and ammunition combination should, at a range of 50 meters, have a 90% or better probability of hit on a 4 inch circle when fired from a test fixture. It must maintain this throughout the life of the system. Systems are encouraged to utilize ergonomic and design improvements to minimize the effects of greater recoil energies, reducing the degradation of shooter-in-the-loop dispersion thereby improving the probability of hit.

* Modularity includes but is not limited to compatibility with accessory items to include tactical lights, lasers and sound suppressors. There is specific interest in designs that would be adaptable and/or adjustable to provide enhanced ergonomics that ensure 5th percentile female through 95th percentile male military personnel access to controls, such as the safety, magazine release, slide release and all other applicable controls. There is also interest in designs that offer these enhanced ergonomics while providing full ambidextrous controls.

* The handgun ammunition's terminal ballistics will be evaluated at ranges of 0-50m, over 0-14 inches of ballistic gelatin, to determine whether it provides more lethality when compared to the current U.S. Military M882 ammunition fired from the M9. Ammunition evaluated will meet international law of war conventions that bound current general purpose military ammunition. The Pistol evaluated must be capable of chamber pressures equal to or greater than SAAMI specification for the given cartridge, with prolonged reliability equal to or greater than the current M9. However, the ability to accommodate higher chamber pressures in excess of 20% over SAAMI spec without degradation of reliability is of specific interest.

* Reliability and Durability includes but is not limited to Mean Rounds between Stoppage (MRBS), Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) and Service Life. There is specific interest in designs with ratings of at least 2,000 rounds MRBS, 10,000 rounds MRBF and 35,000 round Service Life.

2. Production capacity estimates. Request information on minimum and maximum monthly production rates for a military handgun and associated ammunition as well as the lead times to achieve these production rates. This estimate should consider a US based production facility by the third year of deliveries. This capacity should be above and beyond any current production orders or current sales. If new facilities are planned or required, so state. A list of State and Federal agencies, as well as foreign governments, that have adopted the handgun should also be included.

3. Detailed descriptions of proposed handguns to include pictures, brochures, etc. that will convey the principles as well as general and specific capabilities behind the submissions. Physical dimensions, weight and safety features should be included.

4. Summarized and detailed test data from any certified test facility that addresses improvements in the areas proposed. Test operating procedures utilized and independent evaluations are also solicited.

5. Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) Estimate. Request estimated pricing for the submission based on the following quantities: 250,000 to 550,000 handguns.

This request for information (RFI) is for planning purposes only and should not be construed as a Request for Proposal or as an obligation on the part of the Government to acquire any services or hardware.

[Artful]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf


FirearmsTactical.com
Reproduced with Permission of the Author
CONCLUSIONS
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit.
Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those
individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival
determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the
battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock"
of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid
bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the
1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."

Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.


1987 workshop if you need to review
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/113821NCJRS.pdf

and just for fun reading
http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_cop_killers.asp

[Artful]

"The 45acp is not about to make a major comeback and once the last of the boomers die off (I am one of them) the cartridge likely will fade in use. Why because every kid on the block these days are using Glocks and M&P's and they won't give a rats behind what Great Grandpa did in 1918"

Completely disagree with "logic" expressed. I expect .45 ACP to be around long after we are gone.

The logic is that kids are using what they can get cheap - or easy to steal - used PD glock trade-ins are sold
cheaper than new SIG's and 9mm is cheaper to shoot (buy at Walmart). If the 45 was to be fading away it would be like when I go to reload for the 41 colt - molds, brass, cartridges would be hard to find and very expensive - I'm not seeing that.

[TXGunNut]

So to answer the question how many people have you killed with your 1911 in the past 30 years? If none then the only job it has done to date is tested a holster and made you feel safe while weighing in at around 50oz. loaded with 7 or 8 rounds.

Take Care

Bob


I'm a little more than a holster tester, for nearly 25 of those years it was a duty gun with lots of range time and even a fair bit of competition time. Yes, it works quite well and I hope you're not disappointed that I didn't kill or even shoot anyone with it.

[TXGunNut]

While I think large cap magazine have a use the false sense of security they give is dangerous. If you train under stress its a boon, if not you can throw them away just like a 7rd mag. A limited resource is a protected resource. I would never feel undergunned with a .357-45 revolver, or a under 10 round 40-45 caliber pistol. This is the main reason we went to tri-burst over full auto M16 variants. Some people use it effectively and most people throw all thier ammo away under stress.

A pistol is enough firepower to get to a real weapon and then get back in the fight. A SEAL may disagree but that level of training is truely the next step and not a real consideration in the process.


Thank you, glad to hear from someone who understands handguns.

[jmort]

I wear a holster 24/7/365 and I am constantly holstering and upholstering my 9mm so I know that in the future only the 9mm will remain and the .45 ACP will go the way of the Dodo. And, I should add, that I have killed very many people, so my opinion is supreme.

[Mik]

Yes they get pistols and M4s. A driver couldnt have the M4 on him if he wanted to. I've had 5 1911s and with the exception of the crappy Llama 45 liked them. I'm a Glock guy for autos and I'd pack one any day in a better caliber than 9mm over a .45 1911.

What lots of people dont get is the Miltary VS Law Enforcement idea about pistols. LE wants a pistol that can be worn with a 10lb duty belt and 4lb vest and mauver in/out of vehicles. It is considered the main weapon. This pistol should be an effective soft target stopper without over penitrating. Miliary always worries about under penitrating. The maximum firepower that can be used effectively should be brought to bear. The 9mm FMJ loses on both counts thats why I really like the heavier TC style 10mm rounds with the 40S&W being very shootable for your average soldier.

The US political nonsense of how stuff is bought has a lot to do with greasing palms. Look at our track record for the M16, Bradley, and M9. Until the government gets called out with swiss cheese Hummers on the news you dont get armor packages.
Good point NVScouter.

The only disagreement I have is the assumption that .45ball will out penetrate 9mm ball. That isn't really the case, at least in ballistics gel. The 9mm ball, especially a +p, is quite a penetrator and will out penetrate a .45 ball, not by much. Both rounds penetrate well over 30" of gel. This I've witnessed in a professionally conducted demonstration. They had to place ballistic vests at the back of two gel blocks to catch the 9mm on the way out. The 45 almost reached the vests but not quite.

In fact, I think the upper limit of level IIIA body armor is a 9mm ball fired from a subgun at about 1400 fps. "A bastard to stop" the body armor guy told me.

That said, the test I saw didn't account for bones and such, a very real consideration.

Barrier penetration is another issue. I've never seen a comparison involving ball ammo and those two calibers.

[Petrol & Powder]

Well this discussion went exactly where I thought it would.

[Mik]

Sorry!

[Artful]

Well this discussion went exactly where I thought it would.

Yep, now we need to see what's submitted for testing.

I'm sort of hoping for a laser guided flechette to see how that works out.

[Geraldo]

Honestly, I'd prefer nunchaku.

In the Marine Corps, pistols are given to officers, SNCO's, a small amount of combat arms personnel, Recon, MARSOC, and REMF. The majority of straight legs get their service rifle. Doesn't matter if they are humping 81's, Pigs, Ma Deuces, or fat ladies. Those pistols are vitally needed at the FOB so REMF don't have to worry about knocking over a rack of movies in the PX with their service rifles...

Ah, the voice of reason. 8-) But you forgot the HQ types in Baghdad who HAD to have a shoulder holster for their M9s. Look cool=be cool.

Why Big Green does anything is a mystery to all but those in the big, funny shaped building. Someone told me a long time ago that projects are not about results. They are about keeping your job for your whole career, then getting a civie job with same. If you don't believe it, think "Land Warrior". Killed once, Land Warrior got resurrected and continues toward the ever elusive goal of full body armor, nano-tech camo, computer guided grenades, MREs that taste good, and whatever else they can think of to keep those paychecks coming.

FWIW I don't see .45 making a big comeback in the military. Current users are small units that shoot lots of ammo. Similary .40 was limited to a very small unit that has reportedly moved on, either back to the beloved 1911 .45 or to Glock 9mms (depending on which rumor you believe), both of which they used in the past. Caliber and platform will most likely be decided by who has the juice in the Appropriations committee and not be end users.

In the end, who cares? Infantry will still solve their problems with 5.56mm, 7.62mm, .50, mortars, arty, and air support.

[robertbank]

I'm a little more than a holster tester, for nearly 25 of those years it was a duty gun with lots of range time and even a fair bit of competition time. Yes, it works quite well and I hope you're not disappointed that I didn't kill or even shoot anyone with it.

I expected that would be your experience but it really doesn't matter much in any selection criteria does it? Carrying a pistol on your belt for 30 years doesn't tell us anything other than you did carry it. Of course it works well as most handguns today do. We all know that but so do other designs do as well. If somebody is prepared to produce the guns for a price of around $350US or less the design has a chance. As an aside the issue some raise is whether or not the .45acp is superior at killing people vs the 9MM. You haven't so you don't know and if you did it would be only one experience which would be duly noted.

None of the above means much and has little to do with the rumour the US is going to replace the M9. Some here want to go with the .45acp for nostalgia reasons which is fair enough but I doubt it will convince anyone on the selection committee. Given the low priority given to the pistol and talk about replacing the .223 cartridge with something bigger what do you think are the chances of replacing the M9 anytime soon or even replacing the .223.

I don't know of any NATO country rolling in cash right now that is going to support changing calibers and with the US treasury empty from engaging in two wars for the past decade I rather suspect the average tax payer in the US isn't about to want to spend money to replace a weapon that gets shot lots and used little. That would be a hill even the US Army would struggle with.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

"The 45acp is not about to make a major comeback and once the last of the boomers die off (I am one of them) the cartridge likely will fade in use. Why because every kid on the block these days are using Glocks and M&P's and they won't give a rats behind what Great Grandpa did in 1918"

Completely disagree with "logic" expressed. I expect .45 ACP to be around long after we are gone.

Well if it is you won't know will you.

Either it will or it won't. My bet is you won't know one way or another.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Ah, the voice of reason. 8-) But you forgot the HQ types in Baghdad who HAD to have a shoulder holster for their M9s. Look cool=be cool.

Why Big Green does anything is a mystery to all but those in the big, funny shaped building. Someone told me a long time ago that projects are not about results. They are about keeping your job for your whole career, then getting a civie job with same. If you don't believe it, think "Land Warrior". Killed once, Land Warrior got resurrected and continues toward the ever elusive goal of full body armor, nano-tech camo, computer guided grenades, MREs that taste good, and whatever else they can think of to keep those paychecks coming.

FWIW I don't see .45 making a big comeback in the military. Current users are small units that shoot lots of ammo. Similary .40 was limited to a very small unit that has reportedly moved on, either back to the beloved 1911 .45 or to Glock 9mms (depending on which rumor you believe), both of which they used in the past. Caliber and platform will most likely be decided by who has the juice in the Appropriations committee and not be end users.

In the end, who cares? Infantry will still solve their problems with 5.56mm, 7.62mm, .50, mortars, arty, and air support.

Perfect you could not have said it better.

Bob

[flint45]

1911,.45 acp we all know its best!

[I'll Make Mine]

Well, I'd want it in 45 caliber as if you shoot someone up close I want the larger projectile and it's better stopping power in a non-expanding projectile. I just want the larger projectile to go faster than 45 ACP alone can launch it.

It'd be pretty hard to make the rocket projectiles fit in most semi-auto cases -- the case is too short. In my own (never anywhere near hardware) design thinking, I figured a .357 or .44 Mag would be just about right, with .38 Special or .44 Special as about minimum. I could probably make it work in .38 Super or 9x23, and .45 Colt would be just as good as .44 Mag -- but the rocket takes up considerable length behind what has to be something close to a standard weight slug as the head (if it's to have any useful punch at close range).

Honestly, what made me give up (as much as the cost of trying to build a prototype) was the realization that the accuracy generally available from a handgun would make any performance gain beyond 25 yards a waste. I concluded that the science fiction novel where I read about these (Wizard, the second book of the Titan trilogy by John Varley) was written by a guy who knew less about both ammunition and rockets than I did (no disparagement of John Varley -- he's a great deal better writer than I am).

[jrayborn]

Seems to me the .gov would want a pistol that has at least a marginal chance to penetrate body armor. I appreciate the .45 ACp as much (or more) than most, but I see it's complete lack of ability to penetrate body armor being its Achilles Heel so to speak for a modern military handgun.

I would have to vote for either Glock or Springfield XD over a 1911 as far as current .45 caliber handguns go. Anyone who has ever taken a serious handgun class or two (or more) can easily see the value of high cap magazines if you are limited to handguns only. I am a die-hard 1911 fan, but when it's go time, I go with Glock.

But JMB is still a God in my personal opinion! :)

[pmer]

That article is almost 3 years old and still no change in a side arm. Isn't the mood getting a little abrasive by some on this thread? I don't think you should have to be standing over a body have input here. Any hunter knows a bigger cartridge works better than a smaller cartridge. The 45 ACP isn't going away for a long time..

Some support the 9MM but the article clearly has issue with the power from the cartridge. There seems to be more going on than the cartridge. DAOs are great for personal defense but when you're training the masses to hit at 50 meters, isn't that going to be a lot of work?

A double/single action that has more affect is the way to go. If it starts with a "9" great but it should start with a"4" imo.

[Deep Six]

Why does everybody keep assuming that going to 45 would require going back to the 1911? Maybe no one has noticed, but most all of the 9s/40s are also offered in 45. This includes glock, m&p, Sig, etc. The modern 45s hold 13+ (my FNX holds 15 +1) and offer all the ergonomics and modularity the 9mm versions do. While hollow points even the playing field some, one has to be crazy to argue that a .355 hole is just as good as a .452 hole when ball ammo is used. The only real disadvantage to 45 is that they weigh nearly twice as much per round, which is a significant consideration.

All that being said, the Army said it wants more knock down power than the m9 offers. Chambering the same round in a different gun isn't going to help. The only way they're going to get more knock down is by going bigger. I can't see them being serious about actually switching calipers, so I personally don't see this going anywhere.

[NVScouter]

Except NATO ammo has it's own specs. The M9 got a slide stop revision after SEALs stuffed MP5 9mm ammo in them and blew slides off.

The 9mm is a decent round commercially but that's not what the military is putting in their guns. The .45 has a lower SD then the 9mm and a 300fps loss over issued ammo. This does relate to better penitration, but doesn't compare to a rifle round in the least.


Good point NVScouter.

The only disagreement I have is the assumption that .45ball will out penetrate 9mm ball. That isn't really the case, at least in ballistics gel. The 9mm ball, especially a +p, is quite a penetrator and will out penetrate a .45 ball, not by much. Both rounds penetrate well over 30" of gel. This I've witnessed in a professionally conducted demonstration. They had to place ballistic vests at the back of two gel blocks to catch the 9mm on the way out. The 45 almost reached the vests but not quite.

In fact, I think the upper limit of level IIIA body armor is a 9mm ball fired from a subgun at about 1400 fps. "A bastard to stop" the body armor guy told me.

That said, the test I saw didn't account for bones and such, a very real consideration.

Barrier penetration is another issue. I've never seen a comparison involving ball ammo and those two calibers.

[Mik]

Why does everybody keep assuming that going to 45 would require going back to the 1911? Maybe no one has noticed, but most all of the 9s/40s are also offered in 45. This includes glock, m&p, Sig, etc. The modern 45s hold 13+ (my FNX holds 15 +1) and offer all the ergonomics and modularity the 9mm versions do. While hollow points even the playing field some, one has to be crazy to argue that a .355 hole is just as good as a .452 hole when ball ammo is used. The only real disadvantage to 45 is that they weigh nearly twice as much per round, which is a significant consideration.

All that being said, the Army said it wants more knock down power than the m9 offers. Chambering the same round in a different gun isn't going to help. The only way they're going to get more knock down is by going bigger. I can't see them being serious about actually switching calipers, so I personally don't see this going anywhere.
All things being equal (most importantly penetration of a critical body structure) bigger holes are better. But like NVscouter referenced, the 9mm and 45 are basically identical when comparing them to rifle rounds, i.e. not very good.

In fact, trauma surgeons can't tell the difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 when they examine wound damage. A .452 projectile doesn't leave a .452 hole.

So, we might be splitting hairs here arguing the effectiveness of each round.

[robertbank]

Both kill, but I doubt that will be a deciding factor. Price, politics and upstream compatability with lots of marketing will be the order of the day.

Take Care

Bob

[Artful]

That article is almost 3 years old and still no change in a side arm
Jan 8, 2013 - not quite 2 years yet.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=fd2662aa6580151c9fdc7dcf0f0481e5

but was prompted by Matthew Cox story
US Army wants a harder-hitting pistol
Published July 03, 2014
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/03/army-wants-harder-hitting-pistol/?intcmp=features

[TXGunNut]

* The handgun and ammunition combination should, at a range of 50 meters, have a 90% or better probability of hit on a 4 inch circle when fired from a test fixture. It must maintain this throughout the life of the system. Systems are encouraged to utilize ergonomic and design improvements to minimize the effects of greater recoil energies, reducing the degradation of shooter-in-the-loop dispersion thereby improving the probability of hit. -RFI



Pretty ambitious accuracy goal for a service weapon. Funny thing about the .45, have introduced several new shooters to the 1911 in .45 and many prefer it over the "easier to handle" minor caliber autos and revolvers.