Ladle casting and impurities

[kenn]

I've now cast several sessions and I always end up battling fast dross buildup using a rowell #2. I'm seriously considering a Lee production pot at this point...

Basically I'll get the melt up to about 650-675 and flux with sawdust. I scrape, scrape, and scrape until clean. Once I'm clean, I put my ladle in the melt for a couple of minutes until very hot. Introducing the ladle always introduces more dross as I'm assuming the cool ladle oxidizes alloy in the lead. Leaving the ladle in, I'll remove any more junk on top of the lead. My first ladle of lead is pretty clean. Unfortunately, as soon as I take the ladle out and pour the first group in my mold and place it back in the melt, I get a fresh layer of oxidized metal. I'll move the ladle a bit to try to get clean metal and cast 2-3 more but if I don't clean the melt again, I start contaminating boolits with lots of spots and the number of culls grows quickly.

Is there a trick to reducing the amount of what I assume to be oxidation when taking a ladle in/out of the melt while casting? Some kind of coating or spray?

My original intention was to use my Lee Magnum to smelt and get a bottom pour and only put ingots in it. Perhaps it's time...

[bangerjim]

I rarely use ladle casting. But when I do, I use a LYMAN cast iron bottom/side pour. (sounds like a beer commercial!)

That ladle does not care if there is stuff on the top, as you are pouring from the bottom. And it holds enough to do most 6 banger molds.

But 98% of the time I use a LEE 4-20 bottom pour to get perfect boolits 99.9% of the time! Can't beat it...fast, accurate, and fun.

I do not use sawdust in my casting pot. No need. I use ONLY beeswax to reduce the "precious" metals back into the Pb. If you are using 3X fluxed ingots, all the gunk is already fluxed out so all you need to do in your casting pot is reduce the metals back in. Beeswax is far superior to paraffin! Does not flare up at normal casting temps and smells great. Just stir it in real good and watch the magic happen......instant sliver surface! Only a little black crud left when done. I use beeswax at least 3 times when going thru a 20# pot. Just a pea-sized piece is sufficient. You can find it at Woodcraft stores or get it from randyrat on here! I was fortunate (smart) to buy up about 30# of it years ago when I paid about 55¢/#. The stuff keeps forever. God bless those bees!


bangerjim

[country gent]

I ladle cast all my BPCR bullets. I cast with a larger pot than most as it holds over 100lbs of alloy. I perfer this for the consistency it gives. My pot is fired over a propane weed burner. I flux at the start with sawdust wax together working the alloy thru the ash wax mixture litterally raising it up and thru. And pushing the sawdust wax down thru the mix with a flat spatula. I warm the ladle and mold on the side of the pot then the ladle for a few mins in the mix. When I start casting I pour a couple ladles full of lead thru the ladle to insure its hot enough. I use a rcbs ladle a side pour style that has the pout opened up to .210 dia. When I actually start casting I dip to the bottom of the pot or just above it and make a simple slow even swirl with the ladle. raise a full ladle out and pour. I again am slightly diffrent from some my sprue plates are "vented", I dont pour a sprue I pour a full ladle full of lead allowing the excess to run off thru the vent channel. This allows the bullet to stay hot much longer allowing gases and such to flow out better. The extended "hot" time also makes for better fill out consistency. SOmetimes pressure casting will give a good bullet sometimes pouring. What ladle are you using? If possible sand blast or bead blast the ladle to remove impurities from it. Clean the pot good with a wire brush or blasting. Some coating constantly release impurities. Experiment a little at a time and you will find what works for you your molds and equipment, then your off and running.

[Rich S.]

Ken,
Would try a different ladle, because , from your description above, your problems start after you stick your ladle back in the cleaned lead.
Am a novice here, but basically I get the range lead in a steel pot to melt and get up to a good heat.
Add some softwood sawdust from table saw, sprinkled on top. Mix up the pot using a steel slotted spoon, the sawdust and ashes are mixed pretty good. After say 3 to 5 minutes or so, I remove the floating crud/ashes/sawdust from the surface with a slotted spoon. then dip ladle in to warm up. After minute or so, start ladling lead into the already warmed molds.
Get some surface crud after 20 minutes or so, just stir with my ladle and pull up lead from beneath surface.
Only fluxed once every 45 minutes or so.
Should probably be using beeswax, per above, and will try it next time.

[kenn]

I'll switch to beeswax. My ladle is a rowell #2 bottom pour (sorry, wrote redding for some reason at top) which seems to be a highly rated ladle from the reviews I read. It is quite rough in terms of surface and it seems to either be A)impurities magnet or B)sloughing off impurities into the melt. One dip in/out is all it takes. I have cleaned it with a wire brush (respirator on!) twice. I've scrubbed then inside of my Lyman Magnum with a green scouring pad after emptying it. I'm going to order some beeswax and get a bottom pour. I want this to be enjoyable when I sit to cast and not have to spoon off dross with every ladle full I pour.

[RickinTN]

I don't always do this but I have reduced my mix and stirred it with my ladle. It fluxes and reduces oxidized material off of the ladle as well as the mix itself. Might give this a try.
Rick

[Wayne Smith]

The #2 Rowell holds a pound of lead! That is a lot of lead to handle at once. I use the #1 Rowell to fill 1/2 lb ingot molds. I cast with the Lyman ladle, would use the RCBS if I had one. I have no problem filling a 420gr six cavity mold with two dips of the Lyman ladle. It strikes me that you are working too hard and trying to keep the surface of your melt perfect. The latter is impossible as the tin will oxidize on contact with O2 and the surface is exposed to O2. Every time you dip you are introducing more O2 to the melt, thus creating more tin oxide. You need to periodically reduce this with wax but don't worry about having some on the top of your melt.

[country gent]

I have both the lyman and rcbs ladles and perfer the rcbs ladle both have had the spouts opened up to around .210 diameter for better fill on big bullets. I perfer the RCBS model. I like the sqyare back of it and the slightly larger capacity. The rib on the bottom is handy to hook the sprue plate and ensure that its fully closed. My ladles also have had a nut pressed on the handle shaft part way up. This acts as a stop letting me rest the ladle in the pot and the nut hooked on the edge of my pot. Once I start casting the ladle only leaves the pot to fill the mold.

[kenn]

The #2 Rowell holds a pound of lead! That is a lot of lead to handle at once. I use the #1 Rowell to fill 1/2 lb ingot molds. I cast with the Lyman ladle, would use the RCBS if I had one. I have no problem filling a 420gr six cavity mold with two dips of the Lyman ladle. It strikes me that you are working too hard and trying to keep the surface of your melt perfect. The latter is impossible as the tin will oxidize on contact with O2 and the surface is exposed to O2. Every time you dip you are introducing more O2 to the melt, thus creating more tin oxide. You need to periodically reduce this with wax but don't worry about having some on the top of your melt.

Larger surface, more exposure, I guess. In thinking about your post, I generally don't fill it all the way which means when I pour, the top of the lead in the ladle is near the top of the opening of the larger ladle so that would be what's letting more dross into my boolits and spotting them. Perhaps a smaller ladle filled near full would keep clean lead at the bottom and avoid dross going into the pour...

I'll perhaps order a smaller ladle for casting ingots, but I just ordered a production pot this morning to ease the pain of holding that amount of mass while casting as it's tiring.

[Wayne Smith]

Kenn, are you a blacksmith? You must have the forearms of a Moose to handle that one handed! Yeah, having a smaller ladle to cast is highly recommended.

[btroj]

A #2 Rowell isn't that bad one handed Wayne. I use mine that way and trust me, I'm no blacksmith. I have the forearms of the white collar worker I am.

[.22-10-45]

I do all my casting using the Ideal ladel..don't worry too much about surface oxides..I run dipper down to bottom of melt & before running into mould..I let a small amount of melt run out of nozzle back into pot..then I mate ladel to mould & make the cast. This seems to take care of any impurities.

[kenn]

No moose arms, but my forearm and shoulder are noticeably sore after an extended session. Matters not, now. I'll be using my #2 to fill a cast iron muffin tin going forward using my magnum melter. Fluxed alloy only into a lee production pot 20lb using beeswax to flux. That should keep it fairly clean. Hardware is here, but I'm going on a business trip and won't be able to touch it until next week.

[GrantA]

are you guys cutting the handle shorter on the rowell #2? I seem to remember reading about that, I haven't tried mine yet

[Wayne Smith]

Kenn if you are reducing wheel weights or other rough lead alloy flux with sawdust (carbon). This will take out (absorb) impurities and the beeswax with only reduce the oxides. Often the oil left on the WW's will flux for you though.

[John Boy]

Unfortunately, as soon as I take the ladle out and pour the first group in my mold and place it back in the melt, I get a fresh layer of oxidized metal.A layer of oxidized metal is not dross. Dross impurities are a black colored ash. Oxidized metal is tin or antimony that needs to be stirred back into the melt

[Grump]

All this is fine and dandy but how are the boolits?

Passing through some crud is not really a problem if the product is fine.

Unless you shield the pot in CO2 or Argon, you *will* get some metals oxidation.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I have 2 Lyman and 1 RCBS pouring ladles. I couldn`t get the comfort level with using the RCBS. I opened the pouring hole, ground off the fin on the back of the ladle and shortened the rod handle by 2 1/2" inches. Still can`t get comfortable using that oddly shaped bowl thing! I always resort back to using 1 of the 2 Lyman ladles I have being they feel comfortable to use. I don`t experience the "crud" problem you are seeing with your ladle, perhaps trying a different brand ladle will solve this.Robert

[country gent]

Alot s personal prefrence in a ladle, as Hardcast416taylor said some just feel right to the person. I like the fin on the bottom of the RCBS ladleas on rare instances where the sprue plate isnt completly closed I can simply hook it and close the plate quick and easy. I have lyman and rcbs ladles always wanted a rowel just never purchased one yet. My ladles have had the spouts opened up to .200+ dia for a faster fill. I use the rcbs mostly but will occassionaly use the ymann. I also like the added capacity of the rcbs. I normally dont have issues with dross in bullets but when dipping a ladle of lead I dip to the bottom of te pot make a small "swirl" and come up and pour the bullet. I believe by dipping deep and the swirl any crude floats out of the ladle and when coming up a full ladle has no room for crud to settle in. Dipping from the surface will allow and dross to get in the ladle and be held there. Alot is in the technique you use. It needs to give the best chance of success and be consistantly done every pour.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Don't worry so much about what is floating of top of your alloy in the pot. With a bottom pour ladle, you will not get the floaties into your mold. With both my Rowell and Lyman ladles, I always start pouring back into the pot, and then without interrupting the flow, I pour into the mold. This gets the few floaties in the nozzle flushed out before pouring into the mold.