Group Sporterized Rifle Buy Possibility

[Kevinakaq]

Good evening,

Tomorrow I'm traveling about two hours to look over a gentlemen's collection of rifles and make him some offers on a group buy. Most of the rifles are pretty straight forward (six Savage 99's, Siamese Mauser in 45-70, 1958 straight grip 35 Rem 336 Marlin), BUT he has a few project rifles that I might be interested in undertaking as well and wanted thoughts.

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The top one is a 1903 Springfield (action is Springfield made) that has been chambered in 6.5-06 ai. Obviously it would need a new stock and lots of work.
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Middle rifle is a Mauser action and chambered in 30 Newton. Has double set triggers which is nice. Now this rifle has a bit of an issue as he tells me that the holes for the sights are not tdc though it chambers properly. It would need to be rotated to tdc and then reamed a bit to make it right aesthetically. And what is up with the white grip cap and forearm!!!
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Bottom rifle is a Mauser action and chambered in 35 Newton. Would need to carve a new stock (or buy a semi) and refinish. Not sure of the sight that is on the rifle but it looks like a nice one. Has a really nice barrel on it which is obvious someone at one time invested some cash in it.
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He tells me the bores are in good condition but of course i will have to inspect when I arrive. Just trying to arm myself in preparation. I do understand brass is difficult to come by BUT can buy from Buffalo arms for 2 bucks a piece roughly on the Newton chamberings. Now he is including dies for all three rifles in the price. Price is 200 bucks each rifle. I know the Springfield action is worth that alone...thoughts/insight/enabling?

I'm a pretty good amateur gunsmith btw and would have no problem doing all the work myself so cost of my labor/experience isn't an issue. I realize there is ALOT of work to bring these rifles up to my standards...

I am currently doing a lot of research on these Newtons and reading up on their history which is pretty fascinating in itself...not asking for people to do my research for me...just looking for some friendly advice and opinions....always good to talk over things like this with friends. My initial thoughts were to pass but I'm second guessing that initial appraisal.

[Kevinakaq]

For those curious attached are the images of the Savage 99's (one is 303 and other four are 300 Sav - don't remember which is which and prices range from 500 to 700. Promised a discount if I buy multiples) and the Siamese Mauser he has -


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[gnoahhh]

Looks like a fairly neat pile of rifles. Try to wangle the price a bit more on those Savages to consider them a bargain. At least a couple of them are drilled and tapped and along with what in the pics look like some minor condition issues, making $5-700 a fair retail number for them but not in the realm of bargains. I get the feeling perhaps they were the old gent's hunting rifles and were used but not abused? 99 EG's in .300 Savage are the single most common Savage lever gun, and to command top dollar they have to be factory correct in very nice condition. I'll guess the third one down is the .303, Model 99G, but again the pic doesn't lend itself to good commentary. Pricing parameters are like the EG's, maybe a bit more if un-drilled for scope mounts. The receiver/tang sight on it would fetch $115-150, depending on model/condition, as would the tang sight on the bottom gun.

Depending what the Springfield serial number is will determine if any money can be made (or put into it). A low number receiver (below 800,000) would be grounds for some price dickering IMO, especially since it has that wonkey bolt handle. The 6.5-06 is a hot round IMO that would warrant a good hard look at its throat condition. Or maybe not. Either way, the caliber won't appeal to everybody but if it catches your fancy that's all that matters.

The Newtons hold some promise IMO, but mainly because I'm a sucker for old oddball chamberings. The .35 has a neat solid rib on the barrel, and the Lyman 48 rear sight will fetch $125 if it's nice. Again, the original maker of the receiver would have a bearing on whether I would want to mess with it or not. The stock is a definite throwaway. It's like someone ran out of steam halfway through the project, or bought a barreled action and slapped a crummy cut down military stock on it to take it out to shoot it. The .30 Newton has potential, too. I'm always a sucker for DST's on a Mauser, and the stock looks like something a good rasp could make right pretty quickly. Don't be too quick to chuck the white pg cap and tip until you're sure it's not ivory. Probably not but you never know from undetailed pics. As for the barrel being short of indexed properly, that's something you'll have to suss out when you see it.

All in all, if I had the jingle in my pocket and the bores are nice I would load them in my trunk right quickly- provided the details I alluded to were satisfactory. Keep your eyes wide open and don't get carried away with "gun fever". Of course, who am I to say that, having consumated more remorseful deals than your average bear!! Good luck. Let us know how you made out.

[Kevinakaq]

Sincerly appreciate the reply gnoahhh. The 99's i am interested in, but unless he drops a good amount on a group buy i probably will not touch. We shall see. As for the 1903 it was a high number i just dont remember what it was when we talked on the phone. Throat erosion concerns me as well and will definitly merit close inspection. As for the caliber, was never really interested in it...but it is something new and that in itself has value to me.

The Newtons are what have my attention as well. Like you i love learning new calibers and i must confess i dont remember hearing of the Newton catridges before today. Nice to know the value of the Lyman peep as well which definitly influences value. Dies included is a huge plus as i can imagine a set would be pretty expensive and difficult to locate. But maybe not...luck of the draw sometimes.

Cash is tight i will admit but im actively working hard to improve my smithing/carving skills and these three rifles would provide that. Trying to retire from 'operations management' and live a simpler life. If gunsmithing could provide that i truly believe i would live a happier, albiet financially poorer, life - but that is another story. Maybe i could get lucky and someone might have some brass around and could avoid that 2.00 a piece hit. He mentioned he had a friend that said he had loaded ammunition for them and if he found them i could have them...but that is an if.

Will give the white a good looking over on the caps...you never know....

I realize i rambled a bit but just talking it out. Will know more when i have them in hand. I will say there is GREAT pleasure in taking old classics and making them beautiful again (or for the first time). Not much is more satisfying than creating.

thanks again for taking your time to reply and sharing your advice.

[RustyReel]

I'm a sucker for these old sporters and at $200 ea, including dies, I would take them home with me. The only concern I would have is the chicken scratching used to mark the calibers, making me think the barreling or chambering was done by a real amateur.....but I'd probably take them home with me anyway. I'd also have to try and buy the Siamese as well. For me, if the stock on the Springfield was solid I would not change it, refinish it maybe but I like the style it currently has...... good luck, and keep us posted.

[Kevinakaq]

Thanks Rusty and that concerns me as well. I do remember him telling me the barrel on the 35 newton was marked made by a new york company...cant remember exact one. The carving of the caliber seems like it was done after the fact...but who knows. The stock on the 1903 is an original stock he told me and someone added in the grip etc. The siamese he wants 5 for it, but said he would negotiate...if i could get it for four would be hard to pass up. Need to look closer at it and see if it was a factory conversion or not and the quality of workmanship/ bore/all the normal indicators. It definitly has my attention though as i have never owned a bolt action 45-70 and i understand you can load them up to ruger 1 levels...and then hand it to your nephews/nieces to shoot :)

[Kevinakaq]

I have returned.

I ended up purchasing four rifles for cash and a trade (my pistol I was carrying, lol). I only bought one of the three project rifles as cash was exhausted and I just couldn't afford another rifle...choices, choices. I opted for the 35 Newton.

The 35 Newton does feature a Griffin & Howe barrel and is bright and shiney down the bore. Zero throat erosion as the edges are still extremely sharp. The gentlemen and I speculated that it may have never been shot. The vent rid did have some sort of rear sight it appears at one time that was repaired by a smith (using that term loosely as they let the punch slip a few times). The peep sight, a Lyman 48M, will clean up nicely and I like that the receiver has not been tapped for a scope. The stock is kindling. Will either order a semi inletted or blank and get to work in the next couple weeks or so. Will polish up where necessary and slow rust blue the metal. Bolt will need to be replaced as it is the original bent in a 90 with the back end of the ball ground flat. Receiver is a G.33/40 so I think that will work nicely.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2012.51.30.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2014.34.59.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2014.35.09.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2014.35.18.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2014.35.27.jpg

[Kevinakaq]

edit: I moved my Savage 99 information to a post I made several months ago on a different 99 I was thinking of purchasing. Thought I would let those gentlemen on the 'Levergun' category know how it ended up. Seems appropriate.

[Kevinakaq]

Other two rifles were the Siamese Mauser in 45-70 and the Marlin 336 RC in 35 Remmy. Marlin will need refinishing but make a nice rifle when complete. Marlin does have a nice Lyman 66A peep on it which was a bonus. Siamese has excellent blueing and a few handling marks on the wood...undecided if I will refinish stock and checker as it has a nice pattern in butt area. Bores on both are bright and shiney/sharp.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2015.05.27.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2015.05.35.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2015.05.46.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2015.06.19.jpg

[Beagle333]

What a find. 'Just amazing! http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/images/smilies/new/congrats.gif

[UBER7MM]

I have returned.

I ended up purchasing four rifles for cash and a trade (my pistol I was carrying, lol). I only bought one of the three project rifles as cash was exhausted and I just couldn't afford another rifle...choices, choices. I opted for the 35 Newton.

The 35 Newton does feature a Griffin & Howe barrel and is bright and shiney down the bore. The vent rid did have some sort of rear sight it appears at one time that was repaired by a smith (using that term loosely as they let the punch slip a few times). The peep sight, a Lyman 48M, will clean up nicely and I like that the receiver has not been tapped for a scope. The stock is kindling. Will either order a semi inletted or blank and get to work in the next couple weeks or so. Will polish up where necessary and slow rust blue the metal. Bolt will need to be replaced as it is the original bent in a 90 with the back end of the ball ground flat. Receiver is a G.33/40 so I think that will work nicely.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2014.34.59.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-08%2014.35.18.jpg


Those G33/40 actions are rare and worth some money. There from a light weight mountain rifle if memory servers correctly. Notice the groove in the bottom metal to save weight. I believe that they're the shorter intermediate length action, verify the bolt spacing before ordering a new stock. Very cool. The Lyman peep is valuable too.

[RustyReel]

Kevinakag, Congrats on your purchases, glad to see you ended up with the Siamese. I'm a long way from Ocala or else I would be asking you to PM a buddy with the info on the rifles you passed on. Heck, if your willing to share, PM me anyway, may be worth the ride.

On the Newton, I think the first thing I would do is make a chamber cast to be certain it is a 35 Newton. If so, you may not want to act too quickly in replacing the bolt as think the head size on the Newton is larger than standard (may be the same as Magnum, have to look it up) and the current bolt is probably altered for that round. A replacement bolt would need to be altered as well. If the chamber cast comes back as 35 Newton, I would shoot it before I changed anything.

Again, nice buys.

[Kevinakaq]

Thanks for the comments Rusty and advice. I was thinking about replacing the handle itself, not the bolt. I did, and am continuing to do, some research and finding that the original bolts for the g.33/40 were flat and hollow on the backside. This one is not hollow, but rather ground down flat...serial number of it does not match the receiver. I suspect it was German military modified, but just not the original issue bolt. And you are absolutely correct about the modification of the bolt head.

Kevin

[Kevinakaq]

Those G33/40 actions are rare and worth some money. There from a light weight mountain rifle if memory servers correctly. Notice the groove in the bottom metal to save weight. I believe that they're the shorter intermediate length action, verify the bolt spacing before ordering a new stock. Very cool. The Lyman peep is valuable too.

Found the following and confirmed measurements on mine.

M-33-40 Small Ring,
1.30 diameter. receiver ring, 8.50 in length with screw spacing of 7.835.
Small Ring Long action. Lighting cuts on sides of receiver. Have a threaded shank diameter of .98 in. With 12 threads per inch. Also Brno Vz-33, CZ-33/40. Recevier stripped weight 13.4 Oz

edit - just double checked overall length and found it to be approx. 8.8" not 8.5 as described above...

[UBER7MM]

Found the following and confirmed measurements on mine.

M-33-40 Small Ring,
1.30 diameter. receiver ring, 8.50 in length with screw spacing of 7.835.
Small Ring Long action. Lighting cuts on sides of receiver. Have a threaded shank diameter of .98 in. With 12 threads per inch. Also Brno Vz-33, CZ-33/40. Recevier stripped weight 13.4 Oz

edit - just double checked overall length and found it to be approx. 8.8" not 8.5 as described above...

Because of the light weight of the G33/40, the actions were sought after for custom build rifles, such as your 35 Newton. An original G33/40 in a Nazi wartime configuration in good condition is worth lots of money. No wonder there are reports of counterfeits of the WWII versions. Two unique features that distinguishes the rifle from other 98's: the G33/40s have a short barrel and a wrapping of sheet steel on the butt stock but only on one side. Issued to mountain troops, IIRC.

I like the octagonal barrel section on your 35 Newton. Classic!

[gnoahhh]

Boom! Major score on the .35 Newton. A G33/40 action barreled by Griffin&Howe is worth a heckuva lot more than you paid for it. A set of custom dies would run in excess of $100 too. Worth putting a really nice stock on, IMO. Be forewarned though, it'll rattle your eye teeth when you touch it off. Were it introduced today instead of 100 years ago it would've had "Magnum" in its name. Of course, that's why god gave us .35 bullet molds for reduced loads.

[Kevinakaq]

Boom! Major score on the .35 Newton. A G33/40 action barreled by Griffin&Howe is worth a heckuva lot more than you paid for it. A set of custom dies would run in excess of $100 too. Worth putting a really nice stock on, IMO. Be forewarned though, it'll rattle your eye teeth when you touch it off. Were it introduced today instead of 100 years ago it would've had "Magnum" in its name. Of course, that's why god gave us .35 bullet molds for reduced loads.


Thanks for the comments. I am happy with the find and considering a Mannlicher stock for it. Think it might look good with the rib on the barrel etc. but undecided...no hurry. Will defintly get a slow rust blue job for that satin finish.

Dies are soaking in an oil bath right now. There were only a couple spots of surface rust but figured I would put them back to 100 percent. Most solid set of dies I have ever seen. Stamped on top SE Hollywood Gun Shop and scribed in 35 Newton.

AND thank god for reloading and reduced loads or else I would seldom ever shoot my 45-70 either!!!

[woodbutcher]

:bigsmyl2: RE:Siamese Mauser.Had one ages ago.Bought it through the mail for IIRC $25.00(action only).Had it set up for the 45-70 by a friend as a favor.Only had to pay for the barrel.
The fellow that did the work was C.Reed Knight.You might know the name.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[gnoahhh]

Thanks for the comments. I am happy with the find and considering a Mannlicher stock for it. Think it might look good with the rib on the barrel etc. but undecided...no hurry. Will defintly get a slow rust blue job for that satin finish.

Dies are soaking in an oil bath right now. There were only a couple spots of surface rust but figured I would put them back to 100 percent. Most solid set of dies I have ever seen. Stamped on top SE Hollywood Gun Shop and scribed in 35 Newton.

AND thank god for reloading and reduced loads or else I would seldom ever shoot my 45-70 either!!!

I don't know, but personally I would avoid a full length stock on a gun with a full length solid rib. It may well make it look more clubby than guns with full length stocks typically do. Very very few full length stocks are done right. Mannlicher-Schoenauer pulled it off because because they weren't afraid to pare the dickens out of the wood and took care to make the fore arms have a subtle concavity from the action to the nose cap. Most American stockers- both amateur and pro- seem to not have caught on to that and the result is something with the grace of a 2x4. I'm sure whatever you do will do justice to that interesting piece of history.