Cap & ball self defence

[Fly]

This has been ask on many forms.But do any here use a cap & ball
revolver for home defense.I keep my .44 remey by my bed.Yes I
have other revolvers, but this pistol is as accurate as any I have.

I feel the knock down power is plenty, but more than anything
else is this.When you shoot one of these guys at night it makes
a flash & boom, no smokless gun can.I think it would scare the
day light from any intruder even if I missed.Your thoughts?

Fly:bigsmyl2:

[RickinTN]

Yep. After you touch one off how do you see the second intruder? Flash and boom won't stop someone but a properly placed bullet may.
Just my thoughts,
Rick

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I really like C&B revolvers, but unless you are legally limited to a C&B revolver almost any modern gun would be better. Seeing as you mentioned owning other guns I cannot fathom a logical reason you would opt for the C&B over a modern gun. In my opinion it would be like owning a tractor or combine but opting to plow your field with an ox. Sure it will work but this isn't the 1860s we don't need to make it hard on ourselves. If the perceived advantage is the smoke and flash you could load almost any cartridge case with black powder and have equal or better ballistics than a round ball C&B.

It's your hide not mine so do as you please. If my life is on the line I'll take whatever edge I can.

[THBailey]

This has been ask on many forms.But do any here use a cap & ball
revolver for home defense.I keep my .44 remey by my bed.Yes I
have other revolvers, but this pistol is as accurate as any I have.

I feel the knock down power is plenty, but more than anything
else is this.When you shoot one of these guys at night it makes
a flash & boom, no smokless gun can.I think it would scare the
day light from any intruder even if I missed.Your thoughts?

Fly:bigsmyl2:


I am pretty sure home defense is why the pump shotgun was invented!!! Seriously, though, I really like my cap 'n ball revolvers but defending my dear ones from mayhem is not a time for suboptimal equipment and tactics.

[UBER7MM]

Remember, you have to live in that house after you touch one of those cylinders off......

[historicfirearms]

If you like flash boom try one of the AR or AK pistols. Wow!

Think of how the flash will affect your night vision.

If I'm shooting at someone, it's not to scare them off. Just my opinions.

[Fly]

My I knew I was a odd fellow, but not this much.:bigsmyl2:

Fly

[Beagle333]

I don't use it for home defense (I like a double barrel), but about 80% of the time I carry my 1860 as my take-a-long pistol in the truck.
On open ground or in a parking lot, I feel good about my '60.
At home, I figure I might have to shoot through a wall or door.

[Outpost75]

Ask Kenyon Balleau how well they work.....

[waksupi]

Many years ago, I fired a Colt Walker inside a house. (Was trying to kill a fly. Don't ask.) Couldn't hear a damn thing but bells for nearly two weeks. Conversation was out of the question.

[I'll Make Mine]

What I see as the big disadvantage of the cap & ball revolver is reloading time. If I can't get the job done with six rounds of .357 (very possible, if I have a home invasion situation involving body armor or multiple invaders), I've got two speed loaders that live on the shelf right next to the revolver. The closest you can come to a speed loader with a cap & ball is keeping a loaded spare cylinder on hand -- but if you keep it capped, it's very dangerous to keep around (imaging dropping it while trying to swap cylinders in the dark and having it land, capped nipples down, on a hard floor!).

[CPL Lou]

If that's all I had, that's what I would use.
Beats using harsh language !

CPL Lou

[Fly]

I,m sorry I do not know who Kenyon Balleau is.Please clue me in?Also what happened?

Fly

[bubba.50]

it's spelled Ballew in the articles I found. quite an interestin' read about police blunders & abuse of power & what happens when ya rely on a "snitch". way too much for a short version.

[Rattus58]

I really like C&B revolvers, but unless you are legally limited to a C&B revolver almost any modern gun would be better. Seeing as you mentioned owning other guns I cannot fathom a logical reason you would opt for the C&B over a modern gun. In my opinion it would be like owning a tractor or combine but opting to plow your field with an ox. Sure it will work but this isn't the 1860s we don't need to make it hard on ourselves. If the perceived advantage is the smoke and flash you could load almost any cartridge case with black powder and have equal or better ballistics than a round ball C&B.

It's your hide not mine so do as you please. If my life is on the line I'll take whatever edge I can.Yup... I love them too.... but it's my other 44 next to my bed.... :D

Aloha... :cool:

[Tar Heel]

As an avid BP shooter with multiple C&B revolvers, I have shot thousands of RB's down range through my 1851's, 1860's, Dragoon, and Ruger Old Army. Even with all my practice over 30 years I frequently hear "CLICK" when the hammer does not set off the cap for whatever reason. I have NEVER heard click on any modern center-fire handloads or factory ammunition. Choice is yours but you should know the loudest and perhaps last sound you will ever hear in a gunfight is CLICK.

[GhostHawk]

I love my .36 cap and ball revolver, but I have shot it enough to not want to trust my life to it.

Not to mention, most drywall walls will NOT stop a large round lead ball. So you have to guesstimate how many rooms its going to go through, killing who knows who on the other side of that wall?

Shotgun is #1 for home defense for a lot of very good reasons. Large bore, harder to miss, big knockdown at close range, and unless your loaded with slugs, buck and ball, your not going to kill someone you don't want to kill 3 rooms over.

[Hickok]

Ask Kenyon Balleau how well they work.....I remember reading about that fiasco in the American Rifleman back when I was in high school. I believe Balleau got shot in the head in a botched up police raid.

[Fly]

Ya I looked it up, after asking.It was a ATF deal.I think no gun would have saved a life in that deal.
Killed with out shooting a shot.ATF, shot & ask later, in there own home.

Fly

[DLCTEX]

If I want flash and boom I have at them with a 480 Ruger. If I miss, he can't see or hear me, but neither can I. Body armor would make him feel like he had been hit with a 30 lb. sledge. My Ruger Old Army loaded to the max with 230 gr. boolits sends them out at about 1000 fps, but I'd better hit him first shot, I won't be able to see him for a second and would be coughing too much to make a hit anyway in the house.

[johnson1942]

the fire and the boom is a good thing at night if you need it. 25 years ago i knew this border guard on the canadian border who carried a 2 barrel .44 mag derringer for that very reason. he said the flame at night was real long and lit everything up and the noise was really loud. he said if he missed the rest would scare the guy to death. another cop up their carried a stub nose .44 mag for the same reason. its a good idea.

[cwheel]

In your house I think it's a poor choice unless it's all you can, or do have. Best use for SD is when hunting in a muzzle loader season using that for a backup when you aren't allowed to carry a modern pistol.
Chris

[OverMax]

What ever it takes to keep you and yours safe. Be it a 44 Mag in the hand in the dark or a 44 Walker Dragoon I don't see much difference Fly. No doubt the ignorance suspect/s are leaving the property via the Coroner's Hearse in the end.

[swathdiver]

A cap and ball sixgun is a fine home defense or bedside weapon if in good order with an owner familiar enough to operate it without thinking in an instant. You only need one or two shots anyway; no need to reload or change cylinders. But having another sixgun or two around is a good idea too.

[Lee]

I see I'm not the only dumb one on this site [smilie=l:

[Omnivore]

The smoke would be my main concern. I think with the right combination of caps, nipples and loading practice, and the right gun, the percussion pistol is the near equal in reliability, at least for the first shot or two. A percussion 44 is certainly the equal in terms of power, to the standard, modern service pistols.

I HAVE had modern guns go "click", many times, as I think anyone has who's done a fair lot of shooting.

More than once while hunting deer, I've taken my shot, and then seen nothing but smoke, and when the smoke cleared my target was simply gone. I found the deer later, but there were a few moments of total confusion. Indoors I expect it would be worse.

An auto loading or pump, or double shotgun (coach gun) loaded with smokeless cartridges and heavy birdshot is probably the better choice, but easier to hit? Not so much if you consider that the pattern spread at across the room distance is very slight. So it's "easier to hit with" if you consider the one or two inch shot pattern verses a .45 inch slug. Not terribly significant. Try it at four paces and see.

As an aside; if we take our vice president's advice and just fire a couple shots through the door every time we feel uncomfortable, well, I'll just say that if my wife took that advice, we'd be going broke paying for new doors, to say nothing of the several innocent visitors killed or injured.

[Hellgate]

If you have a modern gun, use it. I've fired my Remington at night and the muzzle flash is blinding for several seconds. I don't want to be blind and looking for a perp on my second shot. Also, I have had longtime loaded C&Bs misfire on me so unless it is your only gun, don't be a romantic. Be practical. The perp may well be armed with a 17 round 9mm.

[FLHTC]

I remember reading about that fiasco in the American Rifleman back when I was in high school. I believe Balleau got shot in the head in a botched up police raid.

Botched wasn't the word for it. Maryland was a buzz from that incident for years and spawned a regrowth of firearm sales. It just goes to show you that whoever breaks your door down, isn't going to give you time to think and very little time to decide. If you're shooting to defend your life, it's highly likely that you could die so my motto is, "Make it worth it".

[StrawHat]

One thing not addressed yet is the fact that C&B revolvers killed a lot of men, several days after they were shot. Infection and gangrene were the primary results of being shot in those days. Not a lot of instantaneous stops, merely woundings and lingering deaths. I like my C&B revolvers, and when they were the only option, I have made use of them. Now, I prefer my S&Ws for when I am likely to need a handgun.

[MBTcustom]

I am very familiar and proficient with a C&B wheel gun having grown up on them.
I wore a 1851 confederate navy smooth out. It was a total rattle trap and didn't have a bit of bluing left on it when I bought another. I could stick a ball right where I wanted out to 30 yards just point shooting.
Would I use one for SD if it were loaded and handy? You betcha.
Would I plan on it? Nope.

That's why God gave us the 1911, pump shotguns, and the M1A.

I also don't keep a fighting knife handy, (well actually I do but it's not the first thing I'm reaching for). There are better tools available for SD and they have never been cheaper.
You can buy a brand new pump 12 for less than $250 so why in the world would you not?

[Geraldo]

the fire and the boom is a good thing at night if you need it. 25 years ago i knew this border guard on the canadian border who carried a 2 barrel .44 mag derringer for that very reason. he said the flame at night was real long and lit everything up and the noise was really loud. he said if he missed the rest would scare the guy to death. another cop up their carried a stub nose .44 mag for the same reason. its a good idea.

I have no doubt someone told you that, but the guy who told you that was an idiot. You win a fight with hits, not misses. Noise and muzzle flash don't stop anyone, good hits do. Lots of flash also helps your opponent locate you. Unconstrained by conscience or concern for your loved ones, your opponent now fires sixteen rounds in your general direction. How's that fight work out for you?

In my experience, people always see themselves as the victor, but good people die at the hands of the bad all the time. You can lose. You can get your family killed. That's the harsh reality. Stack the odds in your favor.

[Mik]

There are several disadvantages to using a cap and ball for self defense. I can't think of a single advantage.

I wouldn't count on the bang and flash as a deterrent, it might work, but it might not. Besides, the bang and flash from a modern handgun will have basically the same effect.

The additional boom and flash from BP is probably negligible. Have you ever fired a gun indoors without hearing protection? Loud is loud.

[FLHTC]

Not having addressed the original question in my previous post, i will offer my opinion now. If and when someone breaks into my house, I want more might if possible, then they are bringing to this encounter. Not knowing what they're bringing, i must prepare for the worst and a cap and ball revolver wouldn't be it. I keep a beefy platform with 15 rounds of deterrent in my nightstand. My defense position next to the dresser, has two more loaded magazines within easy access. If I'm caught off guard down my basement, i wait patiently with a guarantee that i am the dominate force. Cap and Ball is what you must use, if that's all that you have but it's unlikely the intruder is carrying one, if it's only one intruder. Hitting the floor in the dark will give you a good opportunity to blow their ankles off with ten rounds, you have five more to send them to heaven with. It's a life and death situation, not a Clint Eastwood movie.

[country gent]

While they are effective and were for many years before the bored thru cylinder. Look at how many were converted to cartridge firing handguns for several reasons. STayed black powder arms still, still stayed slow to reload. what did change was the handling loose powder and one I have read about in several articles that makes sense. Several of the old timmers would fire thier revolvers of EVERY evening clean and reload them so the charges were fresh and not affect by days of humidity, weather or other conditions. A cartridge firing gun loads were sealed in this handy little brass case all contained and neat to handle. MAny an indian or person fell to the cap and ball revolvers but it was a chore keeping them in a reliable state. I to have played with them caps occassionally fall of loads go dead chambers have been known to chain fire. Way more than I want to deal with under stress.

[doc1876]

Many years ago, I fired a Colt Walker inside a house. (Was trying to kill a fly. Don't ask.) Couldn't hear a damn thing but bells for nearly two weeks. Conversation was out of the question.


I laughed so hard at this the co-workers were worried about me.
I swear you and think alike, I shot a mouse in the house with my SAA, the watt (wife at the time) was not happy!

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Many years ago, I fired a Colt Walker inside a house. (Was trying to kill a fly. Don't ask.) Couldn't hear a damn thing but bells for nearly two weeks. Conversation was out of the question.

I have to ask if alcohol was involved?

[NVScouter]

Agreed 100% If you pull a gun and choose to shoot you are aiming to kill. No leg shots or wounding garbage. If you use a deadly weapon you have chosen to kill that person. Shoot and keep hitting the target until it is no longer a threat. This means they are dead, have fallen down and are incapable of attacking you, or running away minus weapon. An oponant running away with firarm may be seeking cover to continue the fight...end it right then and there. If you cant make this choice invest in mace or other less then lethal protection.

A cap and ball would be fine if you can do the above. I shot 6 rounds in my shed thats 60ft long and 15 ft wide 10 foot ceilling. After three rounds I could barely see my target. Shots 4-6 had to wait until it cleared.


I have no doubt someone told you that, but the guy who told you that was an idiot. You win a fight with hits, not misses. Noise and muzzle flash don't stop anyone, good hits do. Lots of flash also helps your opponent locate you. Unconstrained by conscience or concern for your loved ones, your opponent now fires sixteen rounds in your general direction. How's that fight work out for you?

In my experience, people always see themselves as the victor, but good people die at the hands of the bad all the time. You can lose. You can get your family killed. That's the harsh reality. Stack the odds in your favor.

[Good Cheer]

I have to ask if alcohol was involved?

Or a divorce. The vermin with more than two legs die when the lawyers walk away. Just the way it is.

[John Taylor]

A few years back someone questioned how a shootout in and old bar would have happened with cap and ball or any BP gun. So the guy decided to test it out an use an old garden shed that he supposed would be about the size of an old saloon ( not the movie versions). He use an old oil lantern for light to be authentic and a BP revolver. Touching off a shot inside made him sick from the concussion and smoke and he could not see anything do to the smoke.
I prefer my 1911 and 870 Remington for home defense but if all I had was a cap and ball it would be loaded in the night stand.

[waksupi]

A few years back someone questioned how a shootout in and old bar would have happened with cap and ball or any BP gun. So the guy decided to test it out an use an old garden shed that he supposed would be about the size of an old saloon ( not the movie versions). He use an old oil lantern for light to be authentic and a BP revolver. Touching off a shot inside made him sick from the concussion and smoke and he could not see anything do to the smoke.
I prefer my 1911 and 870 Remington for home defense but if all I had was a cap and ball it would be loaded in the night stand.

He must be a pansy! We used to have shoot outs in the saloon down in Virginia City years ago. Yep, it got a bit smokey, and we said "Huh?" a lot, but it was survivable.

[doc1876]

yea, I remember one time in the '80s when Grandmother was reading the local Kemmerer Gazette, and stated something about "them easterners come out here, and the first thing they want to do is get in a gunfight in the bar, and then wonder why they are in jail"..........I always will cherish that moment. btw, A little smoke is good for you, helps to worm you out.

[Fly]

A few years back someone questioned how a shootout in and old bar would have happened with cap and ball or any BP gun. So the guy decided to test it out an use an old garden shed that he supposed would be about the size of an old saloon ( not the movie versions). He use an old oil lantern for light to be authentic and a BP revolver. Touching off a shot inside made him sick from the concussion and smoke and he could not see anything do to the smoke.
I prefer my 1911 and 870 Remington for home defense but if all I had was a cap and ball it would be loaded in the night stand.

Yea but if I get the first shot off, I shoot to kill.Now say I miss, he can't see me so I can hide & wait till the smoke clears for the next shot,
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Fly Pretty smart Hu! (wink)

[Mik]

Yea but if I get the first shot off, I shoot to kill.Now say I miss, he can't see me so I can hide & wait till the smoke clears for the next shot,
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Fly Pretty smart Hu! (wink)
I think the general consensus is that a cap and ball is a poor choice for self defense.

I know you really like the idea - no problem there, they are cool guns. But, you have convinced yourself there is some sort of tactical advantage to be had by using an antique weapon to fill the air with smoke. There just isn't.

Do this - place a modern, high-capacity, semi auto with a tactical light on your nightstand next to a 6-shot cap and ball revolver. When its pitch-black and your life depends on it, see if your survival instinct allows you to reach for the gun that has been obsolete for over a century.

It would be a bit like entering a Model T in the Daytona 500.

[Hellgate]

A cap & ball is (almost) never used by criminals for self defense or offense because there are such better alternatives.

[Lee]

Yep! Y'all best think about it too. Any gun is better than no gun. Ask our Founding Fathers, all much smarter than those today.............................
And when (not if) powder and primers go away, y'all best think about that too.
Tha's the way this once proud country is going. Just ask the dictator in chief.......................OUT!

[swathdiver]

Better or more readily available and common?

You use the weapon you're most familiar with. If Jerry Miculek had a Glock 17 or a Smith & Wesson sixgun on his nightstand which do you think he'd reach for first?

[Geraldo]

Better or more readily available and common?

You use the weapon you're most familiar with. If Jerry Miculek had a Glock 17 or a Smith & Wesson sixgun on his nightstand which do you think he'd reach for first?

I was in a 3 gun match with Jerry M. several years ago. He shot a semi-auto like everyone else. Well, a lot faster than everyone else as he was overall winner. I never saw one of the pros handicap himself in any way. In fact, they looked for every edge because their overall match times were within fractions of a second of each other.

Maybe we should think of this another way. You're on a boat halfway to the Bahamas when it starts going down. Your choices are a seat cushion that will float for a while, or a rated life jacket with a PLB and a couple signal flares in a pocket. Which one do you want to grab?

I'll bet my life on hard cover, a good light, night sights, and plenty of modern ammo. If anybody wants to bet theirs on something else, have at it, but don't try to convince me it a good idea.

[marshall623]

"night it makes a flash & boom" ---

inside the house any modern gun is going to dish out all of that one can stand especially out in front of the muzzle just my $.02

[troy_mclure]

unfortunately at this point in my life i have 3 guns, .22 pistol, .32acp, and a .44 new model army replica. so the .44 is my bedside gun.

having shot many guns in shoot houses, barns, and sheds, ive found the "boom" of a BP gun to be less punishing on the ears than the sharp "crack" of modern smokeless powders.

[WILCO]

Ask Kenyon Balleau how well they work.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ballew_raid

[Good Cheer]

Cabelas has a .44 brass frame 1858 for $180. Lop off half that barrel and it could make a nice self protection piece.
What would be a good way to keep the cylinder pin in place if the loading lever stayed in the box? Anybody seen an original 1858 snubby?
Like this one?
http://www.imfdb.org/images/6/60/Nksawnoffcarbine-3.jpg

[dondiego]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ballew_raid

I don't think that Ken Ballew arming himself with the Walker had little to do with the outcome of his attack.

[Geezer in NH]

Ask Kenyon Balleau how well they work.....Yep you got that right, IF you don't like your life as it is fine. a Glock at under 600 is better. Fantasy is fine if you are by yourself with no family.

[rodwha]

The outcome wouldn't likely have changed had he been armed with anything else. I'm not following the logic, though I certainly would prefer to be armed with something more modern.

I do keep my cap n ball pistol loaded while at home.

[Hellgate]

Too bad a jury didn't hear the case. I just wonder what is expected of you (the reasonable man concept) when you hear a bunch of inaudible yelling in the hallway outside and heavy banging on the door? You arm yourself and shoot as they emerge into your home. We need more 3 piece suits with a warrant in hand.

[Mik]

People have successfully defended themselves with screw drivers, purses, and rolled up newspaper. That doesn't make them good options when planning for a self defense scenario. Viable in a pinch, but not a component of calculated self defense when so many better options exist.

You can lube your guns with olive oil if you need to, but there is no reason to bypass the CLP if you have it.

[heelerau]

Fly, lot of dead men from cap and balls, reckon they kill dead today just like they did in the late 19th century. Just make the first shot count, no warning shot.

[Mik]

Fly, lot of dead men from cap and balls, reckon they kill dead today just like they did in the late 19th century. Just make the first shot count, no warning shot.
Not nearly as many as were killed by metallic cartridges.

[Hellgate]

A lot of the old timers died from bleeding or infection several hours or days later. Since perps end up in the hospital these days they may live to testify against you.

[swathdiver]

And far more were killed with clubs, swords and arrows.

Anyone else notice how cartridge rounds only penetrate 3-6 water jugs on average, including .308 rifles? Compare that to a Ruger Old Army shooting a conical or round ball, it's double and then some! Bigger wound channels, and usually two holes, not one.

[Good Cheer]

Sometimes I think that something along the lines of the Webley "Manstopper" hollow point & base wadcutter should have made a .44 percussion revolver totally adequate to the task in the 19th century. And then I remember what people do. They make something that works. I haven't been shot with a percussion revolver but I suspect they made what worked.

[TheNinthDoctor]

Howdy,

Could you? Yes

Should you? If you wanna.

First rule of a gunfight.... HAVE A GUN

[BrassMagnet]

I really like C&B revolvers, but unless you are legally limited to a C&B revolver almost any modern gun would be better. Seeing as you mentioned owning other guns I cannot fathom a logical reason you would opt for the C&B over a modern gun. In my opinion it would be like owning a tractor or combine but opting to plow your field with an ox. Sure it will work but this isn't the 1860s we don't need to make it hard on ourselves. If the perceived advantage is the smoke and flash you could load almost any cartridge case with black powder and have equal or better ballistics than a round ball C&B.

It's your hide not mine so do as you please. If my life is on the line I'll take whatever edge I can.

First off, I haven't read this thread yet so I could be off in left field.
My first pistol was a Hawes 1851 Navy brass framed cap & ball revolver. Caps would jam it or fall off or misfire. Why would you take that chance in self defense?
If the only pistol you could legally use is a C&B, then use a rifle, carbine, or shotgun!
Even if you are immune to law suit for self defense in your home (Think Colorado's Make My Day Act!) you lose immunity from lawsuit if you use hand loaded ammo, and probably do if you use a C&B!
Thugs run in packs. Use a high cap if possible or a revolver. A 44 Mag or 45 Colt comes to mind. Or a 12 Gauge with large shot, not bird shot.

Kenneth Ballew didn't do too well against the ATF back in 1970. One lesson you should take from that incident is not to own novelty grenades (Complaint Department - Please take a number!) and reloading supplies as the ATF will call it a destructive device or just create one in the evidence locker to justify their actions.

[GhostHawk]

Ever have a cap fall off a nipple when firing Cap and Ball?
Ever have a cap lock a cylinder up when firing Cap and Ball?
Ever had a chain fire happen when Cap and Ball?

I've had all 3, and in all 3 cases they are IMO not something you want to have happen when your life is on the line.
Your talking 1860's tech vs 2014 tech, guess which one is going to win most often?

Sure if you have no other option, yes it is better than nothing.

On the flip side I've fired thousands of rounds of shotgun ammo with nary a dud.
I've seen birds shot at close range (inside 15 yards) with 12, 20, even .410 with birdshot, its not pretty.
The words "Bloody rat hole" pretty well describe it.

Shotguns at close range are incredibly effective. What you can't do easily is conceal them.
But for home defense there is no need for concealment.

Ultimately it comes down to this. What you do with your life is up to you.

But for me and my life I'd not trust ancient cap and ball when I can have a modern pump shotgun.
I have 5 shots, much faster reloads, and a wide variety of ammo that I can change in a second.
At need those 5 shots becomes one long roll of thunder. Lighting in a bottle, just watch where you aim it!

[Mik]

It really isn't even a discussion from an effectiveness standpoint. A modern handgun can do anything a C&B can do but it will do it better.

People keep mentioning that C&B worked in 1866 so it will still work today. Well, yeah...but you know what else "worked" in 1866 - surgery without antiseptic or anesthesia. That doesn't make it a good option these days.

There are some things people just want to do, and that's great. Use the C&B if you want, they are cool and fun guns. Just don't waste time and effort trying to fool yourself into thinking C&B provides some tactical advantages over a modern gun, it doesn't.

[XinTX]

Not sure I'd use one for a HD weapon. Not unless there really was no other choice. It's better than angry words. But there are so many better options out there. Can it do the job? Sure. Is it the best option? No.

[waksupi]

Keep in mind that many of the old timers that got shot died of infection, rather than the ball. How long do you want to wait?

[1Shirt]

Seem to recall that it was said that Bill Hickcock , unloaded his revolvers every morning, and reloaded them, as a precaution, for what ever that is worth. That said, I have seen percussion rifles, and revolvers that were left loaded for long periods of time (rifle over 2 years)(revolver over a year) and both went bang. The rifle I did as a test, and it shot dead on at 50 yds.
1Shirt!

[swathdiver]

A modern handgun can do anything a C&B can do but it will do it better.

Would you like to qualify that statement?

I wouldn't rely on that untuned Hawes either for self defense. A cap and ball sixgun must have proper fitted caps and go bang every time trigger is pulled. They can be readily made to do that these days and they are far more potent than most of todays pop guns.

[Mik]

Would you like to qualify that statement?

I wouldn't rely on that untuned Hawes either for self defense. A cap and ball sixgun must have proper fitted caps and go bang every time trigger is pulled. They can be readily made to do that these days and they are far more potent than most of todays pop guns.
Sure, I'll qualify it. There are no absolutes.

Any modern handgun used by a military unit or a police department will be better for self defense than the very best cap and ball revolver.

There is a reason nobody uses them anymore....they aren't as good as the alternative. They work, a long bow will work, a steak knife will work, but I wouldn't build a self defense system around either of those weapons if I had a gun in the closet.

[swathdiver]

So we're now comparing a Beretta M9 and a Glock 22 to a cap and ball. Well, there's no question which round will do the most damage, the properly loaded and charged cap and ball sixgun. Which can be brought to shooting condition first? I believe it depends on whether or not the Glock has a round in the chamber. The Beretta would lose to both for a first round shot IMO.

[Mik]

1)I don't think its necessarily a fact that a .45 caliber round ball will do more damage than a .357 hollow point. I could be wrong. But, if round balls are so effective, why don't ammunition companies offer them in self defense loads?

2)I don't see how disengaging the safety on an M9 is any slower than cocking the hammer on a single action revolver.

3) Depending on the stats you read, 10-20% of shots fired by police officers in shootings hit the intended target. So, at best, you are likely to score one hit with 6 attempts. On the low end, you are likely to score less than one hit in 6 attempts (that would be zero). Then you would need to call a 10 minute timeout to grab your powder measure and reload.

With a Glock 17, you would have 6 more attempts, then 6 more on top of that, then a 2 second reload, and then 17 more. All of this before you could load and prime a single cylinder on a cowboy gun.

This seems pretty straightforward to me.

[garym1a2]

Wonder if the cap and ball will have night sights, since most break-ins occur at night!

My self have a Glock 22 with a good set of aftermarket night sights and 14 rounds of Gold dots in it.

My Ruger old army and my 1860 stay in the safe.

[swathdiver]

Ammunition manufacturers have made the simple complex. There's little money in a soft lead round ball and the armchair shooters are never satisfied with the simple. Automatics need hard lead or even smoother bullets to feed properly whereas as wheel guns can shoot anything.

Most policeman that I've shot with are mediocre marksmen at best, so no surprise there.

Sixguns, especially cap and ball, are natural pointers and have little need for fancy sights or high capacity magazines when their first shot is deadly enough to put down a horse, let alone a man.

To further qualify this friendly debate, we're talking civilian self-defense, an intruder coming into your home, not military combat. Most shootouts involve very few rounds fired.

At one time I had all three .40 cal Glocks (22,23,27) and carried and shot the 23 for nearly two decades. None are as comfortable to shoot and as natural pointers as a sixgun. Wouldn't you agree?

As for the comparison to cocking the hammer and flipping the safety off, you're right, both can be done while the weapon is being brought to target. The Glock has an aversion to dirt and mud and the M9 shoots wimpy bullets, make mine a GI 1911! :-)

[Mik]

Ammunition manufacturers have made the simple complex. There's little money in a soft lead round ball and the armchair shooters are never satisfied with the simple. Automatics need hard lead or even smoother bullets to feed properly whereas as wheel guns can shoot anything.

Most policeman that I've shot with are mediocre marksmen at best, so no surprise there.

Sixguns, especially cap and ball, are natural pointers and have little need for fancy sights or high capacity magazines when their first shot is deadly enough to put down a horse, let alone a man.

To further qualify this friendly debate, we're talking civilian self-defense, an intruder coming into your home, not military combat. Most shootouts involve very few rounds fired.

At one time I had all three .40 cal Glocks (22,23,27) and carried and shot the 23 for nearly two decades. None are as comfortable to shoot and as natural pointers as a sixgun. Wouldn't you agree?

As for the comparison to cocking the hammer and flipping the safety off, you're right, both can be done while the weapon is being brought to target. The Glock has an aversion to dirt and mud and the M9 shoots wimpy bullets, make mine a GI 1911! :-)
I can agree that old style revolvers are some of the coolest guns out there.

I think the world has moved on from them for good reason. It seems like your opinion is that handgun designs have evolved into something less effective. I just don't see it that way.

In fact, I'm pretty confident that cap and ball revolvers would never have been invented if automatic pistols firing metallic cartridges had been invented first. There just wouldn't be a need.

[swathdiver]

A SAA is one of the fastest guns to get the first shot off. If the right caliber is used, .44-40 or .45 LC for example, that's all one would need. Elmer Keith and Jerry Miculek have also demonstrated just how quickly a double action wheelgun can be shot on target. Magazine capacity is an attempted replacement for poor marksmanship skills. I bought that line of thought (quantity over quality) for years but not anymore.

[Mik]

A SAA is one of the fastest guns to get the first shot off. If the right caliber is used, .44-40 or .45 LC for example, that's all one would need. Elmer Keith and Jerry Miculek have also demonstrated just how quickly a double action wheelgun can be shot on target. Magazine capacity is an attempted replacement for poor marksmanship skills. I bought that line of thought (quantity over quality) for years but not anymore.
I still don't understand how a gun that requires you to cock the hammer before firing is faster than one that doesn't.

There is nothing inherently fast about a single action, black powder gun. To the contrary the extra step of cocking the gun makes them inherently slower. The longer lock time makes them slower still, and the longer delay between ignition of the primer and ignition of the main charge makes them even slower. Granted, the last two are imperceptible, but they certainly don't make the gun inherently faster. In many ways, one could argue the only thing slower than a cap and ball is a flintlock.

I'm not bashing modern double action revolvers, I think they are a viable self defense option.

I'm also not bashing cap and ball revolvers they are great fun.
As a fighting gun, there are better options.

You seem extremely confident that your first shot will find its mark and be instantly fatal. I hope it works that way for you if you ever find yourself in that situation.

In reality, a combination of stress, darkness, moving targets, and ballistic limitations of a handgun (any handgun) make the first-shot-instant-stop more of a fluke than anything to plan on. That's why I'm an advocate of a gun that gives you a lot of chances.

We won't even get into the moisture problem that could make a black powder firearm less than reliable. Its a problem you need not consider with a cartridge gun.

[waksupi]

I still don't understand how a gun that requires you to cock the hammer before firing is faster than one that doesn't.



If you had ever played in the quick draw game, you would understand.

[Mik]

If you had ever played in the quick draw game, you would understand.
OK, I certainly don't know much about cowboy shooting. How does it work? And why is the single action army inherently faster than something like a 1911? Is it the shape of the grip?

[waksupi]

OK, I certainly don't know much about cowboy shooting. How does it work? And why is the single action army inherently faster than something like a 1911? Is it the shape of the grip?

I didn't say anything about cowboy shooting. Quick draw is something different. There is a bit of over lap. The guy who taught me, had beat this guy in competition back in the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H0dYEjR-jA

[Mik]

I didn't say anything about cowboy shooting. Quick draw is something different. There is a bit of over lap. The guy who taught me, had beat this guy in competition back in the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H0dYEjR-jA

That's impressive for sure. But even that guy admits the discipline has nothing to do with gun-fighting. Its based on movies. That said, I wouldn't want to get in a duel with him.

There is another video of him on YouTube (its a history channel thing) that shows his draw in ultra slow motion. He cocks the hammer and places his finger on the trigger while its still in the holster . I suppose, with the right holster, you could disengage the safety on a 1911 while still in the holster as well.

Very interesting video waksupi, I'm curious about what he could do with an automatic handgun.

[Mustangpalmer1911]

My I knew I was a odd fellow, but not this much.:bigsmyl2:

Fly

If only they knew fly ....if only they knew! HAHAH

M&P shield and 1862 Pocket Police in the head board, 870 HD shotty on the wall next to the bed, one of my 58 remmys on he display wall, and one of my 73 45lcs usaly in the key baket on the counter. A bit of it all. I shoot good with all of them and would use which ever one I grabed if someone broke in and threatend my family. I consider the 870 as the go to though. Wife also has a Rugar mark II in here side heaed board.

[Texantothecore]

I suspect that a 44 tricked out with 209 primers would be quite adequate for defense. From what I have read there are very few ftfs.

It might be a spare cylinder which would replace the normal cylinder when you put it away after a day of shooting.

[Hellgate]

Watch a few actual shootouts (convenience or jewelry store robberies) recorded and posted on YouTube and you will appreciate how rapidly & chaotically things go down. I would not want to be thumbing a single action of any kind while the perp is POPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPing at me with a 12-17 round 9mm. C&B is a last resort only. Otherwise you are having a fantasy that could cost you your or your family's life.

[doc1876]

Mik, actually Bob passed a couple of years ago, so you do not have to worry about getting in a gun fight with him. Now as to the 2nd part, the single action is the fastest shooting firearm in the world, for the first 3 shots. again the trick to any shooting is hitting what you are supposed to be aiming at, which we all know, so that being said, the single action is under control. While I am not experienced with an auto, I am told the idea of making it hitting what you want, is a real feat. I have seen Munden and others switch from single actions to 1911s, and it takes some effort, as the angle is just enough different that you have to really concentrate to make these kind of shots.
If you are ever in the St. Louis area, get with me, and I will introduce you to the guys that shoot better than Munden. One is in his 70s, and I can't shoot anywhere near his league.

[Fly]

(Shoot better than Munden)???????.Sorry not saying your wrong, but I would like to see that.

Fly:-P

[doc1876]

I know it is difficult to believe, but when these guys were younger, Munden would not shoot against them. Together they hold more titles than I can even remember. several WFDA Fastest in the world, several states, COWS fastest, I can't even begin to list the records. Bob Argonbright and Ron Bright have been shooting since the 50s, and were personal friends of Mundens. I am just saying, that they are still available for live demos if you are in the area, or let me know where you live, and when one or both go to a shoot near you, I can let you know. They are great to just listen to. (btw, they will not say a bad thing against Munden, just admit they outshot him)

[waksupi]

I know it is difficult to believe, but when these guys were younger, Munden would not shoot against them. Together they hold more titles than I can even remember. several WFDA Fastest in the world, several states, COWS fastest, I can't even begin to list the records. Bob Argonbright and Ron Bright have been shooting since the 50s, and were personal friends of Mundens. I am just saying, that they are still available for live demos if you are in the area, or let me know where you live, and when one or both go to a shoot near you, I can let you know. They are great to just listen to. (btw, they will not say a bad thing against Munden, just admit they outshot him)

Sounds like my late friend Jack. Munden would hardly acknowledge him when they ran into each other a few years back.

[Mik]

Thanks for the offer doc. I'd love to see that live.

[FLHTC]

Mik, actually Bob passed a couple of years ago, so you do not have to worry about getting in a gun fight with him. Now as to the 2nd part, the single action is the fastest shooting firearm in the world, for the first 3 shots. again the trick to any shooting is hitting what you are supposed to be aiming at, which we all know, so that being said, the single action is under control. While I am not experienced with an auto, I am told the idea of making it hitting what you want, is a real feat. I have seen Munden and others switch from single actions to 1911s, and it takes some effort, as the angle is just enough different that you have to really concentrate to make these kind of shots.
If you are ever in the St. Louis area, get with me, and I will introduce you to the guys that shoot better than Munden. One is in his 70s, and I can't shoot anywhere near his league.

I think you actually believe that.
I thought this was a discussion about cap and ball revolvers being used in self defense against home invasion? How does a home owner acquire these trick revolver skills to prepare for a home invasion? If there are three guys breaking into your house from different points, are six shots really going to be better than 15? If you are not experienced with an AUTO, perhaps you should listen to those who are. They do not make hitting your target difficult, they are not slow and cumbersome and whoever told you that hitting a target with a semi-automatic handgun is a real feat, has no idea what they're talking about. You might be a revolver purest but that doesn't detract from the performance of a semi-automatic handgun at all.

[doc1876]

sorry for the hijack,I keep a 1911 near all times for just that reason, and so do Bob and Ron. Just saying that as good as you are with any kind of a 6 gun, an auto is the way to go in the night when it is confusing.

[swathdiver]

I would say the gun you're most familiar with is best.

[FLHTC]

I would say the gun you're most familiar with is best.
you go right ahead and keep thinking that :roll:

[Mik]

I feel like we sometimes have a tendency to pick the guns we like (for whatever reason) and try to convince ourselves they are well suited for the job at hand. I'm guilty of this, we all are.

I love lever action rifles. I so badly want to use them in a self defense role. But they just won't ever be more effective than an ar-15 with multiple 30 round magazines, a light, and an eotech on top.

Lever actions are cooler and better made than modern ar's, but they offer less of everything you need in a gunfight.

I see c&b's the same way.

[FLHTC]

I feel like we sometimes have a tendency to pick the guns we like (for whatever reason) and try to convince ourselves they are well suited for the job at hand. I'm guilty of this, we all are.

I love lever action rifles. I so badly want to use them in a self defense role. But they just won't ever be more effective than an ar-15 with multiple 30 round magazines, a light, and an eotech on top.

Lever actions are cooler and better made than modern ar's, but they offer less of everything you need in a gunfight.

I see c&b's the same way.

Where do you want the flowers sent?

[swathdiver]

I see these guys at the range with their new black rifles with 12lbs of accessories on them, brass everywhere and nary a hole in the black at 25 yards.

I can fill the black with 6 holes at 50 feet on a B-2 and am working on getting all six into the black on the B-16 and B-12 at their respective ranges. When I was younger, had better eyesight and wealthier, I'd shoot 3x5 cards 250x every week or so for years on end from my G23, mostly from 7 yards. There's no comparison, the sixgun is much better.

[Geraldo]

I can fill the black with 6 holes at 50 feet on a B-2

You're all set then.

[Mik]

Where do you want the flowers sent?
I don't get it. You feel the same way?

[Mik]

I see these guys at the range with their new black rifles with 12lbs of accessories on them, brass everywhere and nary a hole in the black at 25 yards.

I can fill the black with 6 holes at 50 feet on a B-2 and am working on getting all six into the black on the B-16 and B-12 at their respective ranges. When I was younger, had better eyesight and wealthier, I'd shoot 3x5 cards 250x every week or so for years on end from my G23, mostly from 7 yards. There's no comparison, the sixgun is much better.
Well no skill is no skill no matter what you are using. And I have no doubt you'll shoot tighter groups with a single action wheel gun than with a DAO plastic pistol. But, but...I challenge you to find someone who has been in a gunfight who, if forced to do it all over again, would choose a cap and ball revolver.

[swathdiver]

You might win that one Mik! But I'll ask my buddy who got into a gunfight with some bank robbers recently after I take him to the range and make some black powder smoke. He'll probably stick with his Grock, he's been carrying them on duty for near 25 years.

[Mik]

That's not fair, you have to ask him before he gets to shoot black powder. After a few rounds of cocking the hammer and making smoke, he'll think he's John Wayne!

[Geraldo]

This thread is like trying to explain to someone that using your leg as a sawhorse to cut lumber with a circular saw is a bad idea. Some people just have to groove their thigh with the saw blade before they get it.

[FLHTC]

I see these guys at the range with their new black rifles with 12lbs of accessories on them, brass everywhere and nary a hole in the black at 25 yards.

I can fill the black with 6 holes at 50 feet on a B-2 and am working on getting all six into the black on the B-16 and B-12 at their respective ranges. When I was younger, had better eyesight and wealthier, I'd shoot 3x5 cards 250x every week or so for years on end from my G23, mostly from 7 yards. There's no comparison, the sixgun is much better.

I think that's an extreme exaggeration and none of the examples you've given were with someone shooting back at you. It's easy to say what we can do when we're at the rifle range.

[swathdiver]

Maybe so but we've all seen plenty of dash cam videos on the tv with the good guys and bad guys shooting within feet of each other and nobody gets hit. Curiously, in the county south of me, I've seen a large number of deputies with sixguns (or 5 or 7) lately. I wonder how well they shoot?

[Mik]

Maybe so but we've all seen plenty of dash cam videos on the tv with the good guys and bad guys shooting within feet of each other and nobody gets hit. Curiously, in the county south of me, I've seen a large number of deputies with sixguns (or 5 or 7) lately. I wonder how well they shoot?
I would guess the shooting and missing is more of a factor of the stress and "pucker" factor than the action type of the handgun involved. I'm not sure we can conclude the hit percentages would be any better with a single action wheel gun.

However, based on what we know about the mechanics of each weapon, we can conclude the bad guy with an auto would be able to fire between 12 and 18 rounds for every 5 or 6 fired by the good guy with a revolver.

[rodwha]

Unless you have two!

[smilie=w::guntootsmiley:

[Hatiwolf]

Now you have me thinking about it! The wife already wants to know who farted when im cleaning my bps in the sink after range time ... id imagine that would make the dog cough all night if you had to use it. My only fear is the extreme humidity in houston finding its way under the cap over time and thats why I dont. Hell a single shot bp would be fine for home defense unless you encountered a group of raging ninjas in your bedroom at 3 am. Ive got friends that scoff at the fact that I use a revolver as my protection gun of choice. If you cant do the job in 1, then you might as well turn the gun sideways and yell "booka booka, foo" as it will have the same effect.

[texaswoodworker]

Many years ago, I fired a Colt Walker inside a house. (Was trying to kill a fly. Don't ask.) Couldn't hear a damn thing but bells for nearly two weeks. Conversation was out of the question.

Ok, you cannot post something like that and not fill us in on the details! :D

[rodwha]

I want to know myself!

Not to say none are, but it seems that it would really have to be a determined attacker to not want to run knowing a gun is being brought into play, much less shot. Drugs have a way of messing with people's thought process I suppose, and many who'd break in are very likely to be high on something...

[waksupi]

Ok, you cannot post something like that and not fill us in on the details! :D

Well, I was living in an old farm house with a few other people. The building was slated to be torn down, as the land was being added to a state park in the near future. So, no one, including the owner cared what happened to it.
I heard a shot in the living room one afternoon, and one of the guys was shooting at flies on the ceiling with a .22 revolver. It looked like fun, so I capped my Walker, to give it a try.
Well, I can tell you, when you fire a Walker in a small room, the walls of the building expand, sucking your ear drums right along with it. Things are amazingly quiet and peaceful for a considerable time following. Except for a ringing in my ears. That was probably the same time that I began saying "What?" when replying to people.
I never did know if I hit the fly.

[BruceB]

When we were "commissioning" a new indoor range in the Northwest Territories, a test of the ventilation system seemed to be a desirable idea.

I fired all six fully-charged chambers from my Walker Colt in the new facility (with hearing protection!)

It proved to be a highly effective test of the vent system, because we could SEE the air flow in all that smoke down to about knee level.