Accuracy

[fatelk]

I was talking to a guy recently, who was telling me how well he could shoot with his new AR15. He made the comment that people always make a big deal about "minute of angle", but he can do that pretty easy.

In fact, he had just shot a "one minute of angle" group with his new rifle, at 25 yards, with scope and sandbags of course. After a little more discussion I came to realize that he thought a one MOA group was one inch, no matter the distance!

[texassako]

I always wonder why I see so much talk of shooting sub MOA groups on forums, but I see so few sub MOA targets at the range.

[xacex]

Thats funny! I have a neighbor who would say something like that. No matter how many times I explain it to him he just won't get it. If I pull out a calculator he freaks out and shuts down. But, he still does not get it when I "approximate" it to one MOA = one inch at 100 yards, 1 MOA= 2 inches at 200 yards ect.

[xacex]

I always wonder why I see so much talk of shooting sub MOA groups on forums, but I see so few sub MOA targets at the range.

Spend some time with me at the range. The only rifles not getting sub MOA are the 670 30-06, 50 Beowulf, and blackouts. When I am there I am always trying, and when I need a ego boost I pull out the sub MOA 5.56 "yes 5.56 chamber", or the 5.6 Grendel. Those two make it easy, the powder coated bullets make it impossible. But, I work at it.

[country gent]

Accuracy means difrent things to diffrent people and at diffrent times. Some think the group they fired 10 years ago ( and have never been able to repeat) is the standard for that rifle. I have watched guys shoot 5 shot groups cut out the smallest for bragging rights and calli it the average even though most were twice the size. Good groups on one day is a start or inclination, repeatable good groups of 3-5 range trips is accuracy. Accuracy isnt one or two good groups fired, but what you can reliable repeat on a given day. Ive seen some that on a nice calm day shoot decent but throw a little wind rain or bad light in the mix and things go down hill fast.

[dh2]

about every trip to the local gun club I see cases where some one has the own idea of what MOA is like I don't count flyers.

if you lower the standard enough every one can reach it.

[gray wolf]

Some people just couldn't handle having to deal with what is, and have to create there own reality,
There own little world to live in. Unfortunately it's full of excuses to compensate for there inadequacies.

In the world today everyone is a winner, everyone adjust the bar to there own liking.
Can't make the standard ? no problem, just lower the standard, works for them.

[fatelk]

Most of my rifles that won't come anywhere near 1 moa, but I like old surplus guns.

I also have some that will, but I get out of practice and it's not so easy. I used to wonder when I would read internet commandos talk about how their off the shelf M4 clone would shoot "MOA all day long" with any run of the mill mil-spec ammo. Now I realize that most of those stories are "greatly exaggerated".

Here's a nice group from a few days ago- a 5-shot, 100 yard group. I will say though, it was the best of the day. All the rest were consistently around an inch, though typically it was three or four really close with a flyer taking it to an inch. Leads me to believe than with some practice and load development the rifle has some great potential.

110010

A lucky 3-shot group is meaningless.A lucky 5-shot group is something to brag about, but still doesn't mean a lot. Now if I could repeat that .48" 5-shot group five times in a row, then I would really have something, though even if the rifle were capable I know I certainly am not!

[fatelk]

Speaking of accuracy standards- I can shoot pretty well at the range, but I don't hunt. I have a good friend who loves to hunt. We grew up together, friends since before kindergarten.

I can shoot better than he can at the range from sandbags, but the times I've been hunting with him I've been very impressed. A moving deer at 300+ yards, resting his rifle on whatever tree is handy, and he drops it with one shot. For that kind of shooting I will say that he is a far better shot than I will ever be.

[popper]

Was told the story yesterday from a friend who went to the farm last weekend, shot a boar @ 250 then got the sow running @ 250 with a 7mm Win mag. I do believe him, that is accuracy.

[foesgth]

All my rifle and pistols are sub-MOA...wait you did mean minute of acre didn't you.:bigsmyl2:

[xacex]

Here are some targets from load development. 10 shot groups. Those groups were fired in a 14 MPH switchy full/half value wind. These groups were shot back to back. It took me close to 15 minutes per group and the conditions (mirage/wind) still played foul on me as well as shooter fatigue: The groups are in order: 40.5 gr, 40.7 gr, 41.0 gr at 2.260, and 41.0 gr at 2.250.
Those groups at 41 grains are very respectable. All my groups that I count are 5 round, and I have to be able to do it consistently to count, but your 10 shot groups up the bar a bit.

[fatelk]

Shoot, that's not even minute-of-angle. My buddy's "moa at 25yds" groups beat that by a long ways!

Just kidding, of course. That's great shooting at that distance. I've only shot half that far a couple times, and it was a long, long ways.

I like to read about and see people who can shoot really good, whether it's bench rest type shooting, IPSC or Cowboy action. I'll never be a really great shot because I don't have the time or equipment, and am not very interested in competitive shooting, but it is fun to occasionally make nice little groups of holes in paper at a couple hundred yards. I tinker and have fun, and that's good enough for me.

[gray wolf]

I got tired of people saying:
Hey! bet you can't do that again. So now I shoot my hand guns like this.
Kinda eliminates the doubt about repeatability.
Last one is black powder.

[jcwit]

Wow! Gray Wolf, that is some shooting, you should enter Bullseye competition.

[45 2.1]

I'm always amazed when people trot out terms that they have no idea of what they represent or where they came from let alone knowing how to calculate anything involving said term or the cause of it.

[dtknowles]

I got tired of people saying:
Hey! bet you can't do that again. So now I shoot my hand guns like this.
Kinda eliminates the doubt about repeatability.
Last one is black powder.

Not sure if most of those are nice groups or not. Not much info on distance, shooting style, or firearms. The last one seems good since it is marked 35 yards and would be nice even shot off a rest if it was a revolver, not so impressive if it was a Contender off a rest and of course it is a single group, could you do that again :-)

Tim

[45 2.1]

It is much more interesting to see if the person knows what a term means, how to use or calculate it (dependent on use) and how much it can potentially effect group size. Much is made of certain terms where the potential effect is far beyond their ability to measure or shoot..... as in many things talked about on this board.

[jcwit]

Not sure if most of those are nice groups or not. Not much info on distance, shooting style, or firearms. The last one seems good since it is marked 35 yards and would be nice even shot off a rest if it was a revolver, not so impressive if it was a Contender off a rest and of course it is a single group, could you do that again :-)

Tim

I'm wondering, could you do it?????????????????????

I was RO at our Regional Bulls Eye matches a week end ago. Very few shot anywhere near this good.

BTW Brian Zins won the match.

[Ben]

A guy once walked into a gun shop and stood by me, the owner said , " May I help you ? "

The guy said "Look buddy, if there is one thing I know it is guns ! "
The owner said , Great, how can I help you today ? "

The guy said, " I'm looking for a Brownington 30-30 ata - matic".

True story.

Ben

[1911cherry]

What about iron sights, like milsurp accuracy?

[dtknowles]

I'm wondering, could you do it?????????????????????

I was RO at our Regional Bulls Eye matches a week end ago. Very few shot anywhere near this good.

BTW Brian Zins won the match.

If those groups were shot bulls eye style my hat is off to the shooter, very impressive. I can do that off a rest and not with a black powder 460 because I don't have one but certainly think I could come close not just once but 4 out of 5 groups with my 32-20 Dan Wesson revolver. I have never a shot bulls eye match but when I was practicing regularly I could shoot my Ruger MKII Hunter with a scope standing two hand hold and keep 9 out of 10 in a 3 inch paste on shoot and see target at 25 yards again 4 out of 5 tries, actually it was interesting I could do almost as well with the pistol as I could with my Ruger 10-22. I have been away from the pistol line working with my bench rest 6mm PPC rifle and my .22 Hornet so my pistol skills are a little rusty. The MKII shoots between a half inch and three quarters with Eley Sport off a sandbag at 25 yards. I could go shoot those groups any time I can get to the range and post the pictures if it tweeks people. It is not the pictures of small groups that are interesting it is the details behind them. I have been trying to keep my pistol skills up without burning range time so I have been shooting a Crossman Pump Pistol in .177 at 5 meters (inside my shop) again two hand standing, just not a bulls eye style shooter I have two hands and will use them both if I can. I have maybe 150 of those targets I could post (I have been keeping those targets to track my progress) and they look pretty good each one is five shots and mostly they are inside the one inch black. Pictures of groups out of context are almost meaningless. I hope people will still post pictures of groups but tell us more of the story. I posted a picture of a group I shot with my .22 Hornet, I provided the bullet mould, weight, diameter, lube, alloy, powder charge, primer, case, range conditions, distance, shooting stance. It is not hard and much more meaningful.

Tim

[fatelk]

Talking about repeatable accuracy- I have a story. My grandfather was a great storyteller and I heard all of his favorite ones many, many times.

He was getting close to the century mark when he passed away some years ago. His stories all had a basis in reality but did tend to grow over time. This one I believe is pretty close to the way it happened, I believe, since I remember it about the same from when I was little.

He liked to spend part of the year in the 1920's in Montana, hunting and trapping with his buddy Irv. The way he tells it, Irv was a hunter's hunter and a crack shot with his "Winchester .25-35 carbine". My grandfather hunted with a borrowed .45-90.

One day they happened upon some guy in a clearing, with a shooting bench, sand bags, and target rifle. He said he worked for Winchester and was trying out some kind of new-fangled "boat-tail bullets". (Ever hear of boat tail bullets, grandpa would ask whenever he told me the story)

They looked at his little bitty target way out there, and Irvy opined "I think I can hit that with my Winchester here".

"Go ahead, take a shot" the guy says.

Irv popped up his little carbine and snaps off a quick shot. They walk down and take a look and the guys jaw hits the ground because there's a .25 cal bullet hole dead center bullseye. "How did you do that? What kind of rifle is that? Can you do it again?!?"

Irvy's in a hurry to leave. "Nope, don't have time. It's getting late and we have a long way to walk and traps to check. Gotta go."

After they walk away Grandpa, fully believing Irvy really was that good, asks him why not, why didn't he do it again and show the guy?

Irv says, "Nope. Lucky shot. Couldn't have done that again in a hundred years." :)

[45 2.1]

What about iron sights, like milsurp accuracy?

Milsurps shoot better than most folks here believe. It does depend on the conditions shot in, what you feed it and the person behind the butt though.

[gray wolf]

I was shooting one day, and doing quite well I must add.
Some guy I never met came up to me and said: Hey ! that's not bad, but can you do that on one foot standing in the rain ? I realized he was a fool and just walked away.
Sometimes you got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.
Saves a lot of time and keeps piece with the world.
Nuff said.

[.45Cole]

If you hit what you're shooting at, you're doing pretty good in my book. Sub-MOA is great, but what are most people shooting at that is less than 1" characteristic length at 100 yds? Or 2" at 200 yds? Splitting hair is great for matches, but I think that for what the average person uses a gun for, terms like MOA kill perfectly great guns.


What about iron sights, like milsurp accuracy?
My brother's original 303 No4mk1? with 174 Sierra hpbtm's will hit just about anything you point it at out to about 300yds, within reason.

[dtknowles]

If you hit what you're shooting at, you're doing pretty good in my book. Sub-MOA is great, but what are most people shooting at that is less than 1" characteristic length at 100 yds? Or 2" at 200 yds? Splitting hair is great for matches, but I think that for what the average person uses a gun for, terms like MOA kill perfectly great guns.


My brother's original 303 No4mk1? with 174 Sierra hpbtm's will hit just about anything you point it at out to about 300yds, within reason.

Prairie dogs at 300 yards? Hard enough on a calm day with a gun that shoots MOA, going to miss a lot with that 303 I think.

Tim