No. 5 mk 1 "jungle carbine" barrel finish???????

[Typecaster]

I'm finally cleaning up the last rifle my dad bought me before he died, a bubba-ed jungle carbine. Bubba-ed in that it has a "sporter" buttstock and the barrel and flash hider are buffed in the white…but still has the lathe marks and is black under the hand guard. The shotgun-style padded buttstock is a little hokey, but the finish on the wood is silky smooth so I'll keep it. I'm not trying to do a full restoration.

I know the actions on these were painted rather than blued; this one has remnants of black paint and green (I assume) primer. The breech end of the barrel is black and brown around the lightening cuts.

I really don't want a glossy barrel, but don't know whether to cold blue it or paint it black. Something like Parkerizing would be perfect. Anyone know what the "proper " approach would be?

Thanks,

Richard

[curator]

[QUOTE=Typecaster;
I really don't want a glossy barrel, but don't know whether to cold blue it or paint it black. Something like Parkerizing would be perfect. Anyone know what the "proper " approach would be?

Thanks,

Richard[/QUOTE]

The closest thing I have found to duplicate the original "suncorite" finish is Brownells' "Alumahyde." It is a spray-on epoxy-like finish that is very durable and properly done is a smother finish. Many of the No.5Mk1 carbines I have looked at seem to have been painted with a dirty twig. Alumahyde is a bit less shiny but the color is a perfect match. It also does not peel or chip as easily.

[Scharfschuetze]

I read some years ago that many of the No 5s used in Malaya were painted green. The green paint on yours may be from the "emergency" there. My No 5 still has a some of it over the original black paint.

Speaking of No 5s, has anyone ever noted the wandering zero that eventually caused the carbine to be withdrawn from service? Mine has held its zero for something like 25 years now when using Mk 7 ball ammo.

[pietro]

.


My .303 JC never lost zero either - over the 15 years I had it.

IMO, too many folks think a battle rifle ought to shoot like a target rifle............................. :popcorn:




.

[seaboltm]

sand blast it and parkerize it. parkerizing solution is cheap, and I have seen homemade tanks on this forum built from aluminum flashing and silicon caulk to seal the seams. Parkerizing only heats to 190F, so it can be done on your stove top or out door gas grill. I sometimes parkerize small parts in a glass bowl in my microwave.

[Bloodman14]

The 'wandering zero' was due to the lightening cuts made in the receiver, which allowed it to twist under the torque of firing. This was discovered by Skinnerton, I think.

[longbow]

I've got one like that too. Never seen it before but the price was right and the bore looks like new so I bought it anyway. The buffing really looks weird. Maybe someone was prepping to finish?

Anyway, now I know how I will refinish it.

I have not shot it yet but am looking forward to it when I get a chance.

I have three No. 5's now and 2 No. 4's. The two No. 5's I have shot do not do badly but are certainly not dead accurate, consistent but not dead accurate. I cannot say I have noticed a "wandering zero". What I have noticed is that my one sporterized No. 4 is quite accurate ~ noticeably more so than my other Lee Enfields. I do like the No. 5's though.

I hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine.

Longbow

[bob208]

are you shore the buttock has been messed with ? no.5's had a shotgun butt and a rubber recoil pad. I would just paint the barrel.

[Multigunner]

Only a few No.5 carbines ever exhibited wandering zero. The problem was more that they couldn't pin down the exact cause rather than it being any widespread problem.Best explanation I've found was that the rifles that had the problem often had the rear sight pivot key pin sheared by the rear walls flexing or spreading after long strings of firing in tropical heat. I suspect it was some problem with the steel or the heat treatment of some small percentage of the action bodies.Fact is most civilian Number five owners are not good enough shots to know if they have a shift in zero. Others will never fire enough rounds at any one time to spread the walls.Whenever anyone does report on a carbine with wandering zero some some internet gun guru calls then a liar.Best loads I've found for the No.5 are with IMR 4198. The fast powder reduces muzzle blast and gives good velocity from the short barrels. I prefer the 150 grain .312 hornady but a friend has had great results with 180 gr round nose bullets.

[robertbank]

I read some years ago that many of the No 5s used in Malaya were painted green. The green paint on yours may be from the "emergency" there. My No 5 still has a some of it over the original black paint.

Speaking of No 5s, has anyone ever noted the wandering zero that eventually caused the carbine to be withdrawn from service? Mine has held its zero for something like 25 years now when using Mk 7 ball ammo.

I ran across an article some time ago on the net that suggested the wandering zero was a figment of the British imagination. The #5 rifle came out at a time when semi auto rifles were replacing the bolt guns in the military and the British Army did not want the #5, they wanted a semi and eventually got one in the FAL. The wandering zero was just one of the complaints laid at the foot of a very good compact rifle. They make excellent truck guns bit so do SKS's. Do enough searches on the #5 rifle and you will run across the article.

The #5 I had never wandered with military ball ammo and was an excellent shooter but a son of a gun on my shoulder. Oddly enough it did not like cast boolits so I moved it along.

Take Care

Bob

[John 242]

Bellow is some relevant information clipped from the evil Wikipedia, that attempts to explain the wandering zero situation. The information provided is cited so that an interested party can go directly to the source.

I post this for the benefit of those not aware of the issue and the controversy surrounding it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle_Carbine#cite_note-13



Wandering Zero

"One of the complaints leveled against the No. 5 Mk I rifle by soldiers was that it had a "wandering zero" — i.e., the rifle could not be "sighted in" and then relied upon to shoot to the same point of impact later on (Wilson, 2006).

Tests conducted during the mid to late 1940s appeared to confirm that the rifle did have some accuracy issues, most likely relating to the lightening cuts made in the receiver, combined with the presence of a flash suppressor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_suppressor) on the end of the barrel, and the British Government officially declared that the Jungle Carbine's faults were "inherent in the design" and discontinued production at the end of 1947 (Skennerton, 1994, p. 8).

However, modern collectors and shooters have pointed out that no Jungle Carbine collector/shooter on any of the prominent internet military firearm collecting forums has reported a confirmed "wandering zero" on their No. 5 Mk I rifle, leading to speculation that the No. 5 Mk I may have been phased out largely because the British military did not want a bolt-action rifle when most of the other major militaries were switching over to semi-automatic longarms such as the M1 Garand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand) and SKS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKS)(Wilson, 2006).

Nonetheless, it has also been pointed out by historians and collectors that the No. 5 Mk I must have had some fault not found with the No. 4 Lee-Enfield (from which the Jungle Carbine was derived), as the British military continued with manufacture and issue of the Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 2 rifle until 1957, before finally converting to the L1A1 SLR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L1A1_SLR) (Skennerton, 2001, p. 5).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle_Carbine#cite_note-13)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle_Carbine#cite_note-13)"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle_Carbine#cite_note-13)Wilson, Royce (May 2006). Jungle Fever- The Lee-Enfield .303 Rifle. Australian Shooter Magazine.

Skennerton, Ian (1994). Small Arms Identification Series No. 4: .303 Rifle, No. 5 Mk I. Gold Coast QLD (Australia): Arms & Militaria Press. ISBN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 0-949749-21-4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-949749-21-4).

Skennerton, Ian (2007). The Lee-Enfield. Gold Coast QLD (Australia): Arms & Militaria Press. ISBN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 0-949749-82-6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-949749-82-6).

Skennerton, Ian (2001). Small Arms Identification Series No. 12: 7.62mm L1 & C1 F.A.L. Rifles. Gold Coast QLD (Australia): Arms & Militaria Press. ISBN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 0-949749-21-4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-949749-21-4).

[Multigunner]

However, modern collectors and shooters have pointed out that no Jungle Carbine collector/shooter on any of the prominent internet military firearm collecting forums has reported a confirmed "wandering zero" on their No. 5 Mk I rifle,
The few who have fired enough rounds in a single session to have noticed the wandering zero and posted about it on a forum have been called names and told they couldn't possibly have seen what they have seen.
The same sort of denial came when a detailed article on the No.5 appeared in a British gun magazine some years back and the author told of "chasing the zero " on the target after firing a number of rounds.
Whats taken as gospel on forums is often without basis.
Its sort of ridiculous to believe that the British decision adopt an autoloading rifle (like every other modern army on the planet) hinged on whether the No.5 had shown faults or proven perfectly serviceable.

The military did not want a carbine that held its zero for a few dozen shots under ideal conditions, they wanted one they could depend on to hold its zero no matter how many rounds were fired in a short time and under the worst prosible conditions.
The Lee Metford carbines had the same basic problems of shifting zero when used in tropical heat. High ambient temperatures alter the chamber pressure ,velocity and barrel time of the cartridge and a hot chamber increases that deviation, all of which add up to extra strain on the action which can increase bullet throw and alter the point during vibration when the bullet leaves the muzzle.
Spreading of the rear walls alters the seating of the bolt lugs, which was known from the begining of the use of the rear lugged action to cause shifts in zero.

[curator]

How did the OP's question about "barrel finish" morph into the perennial discussion of "wandering Zero?"

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm the culprit. Post number 3.

[Ehaver]

Im a few days late to this party, but I used dupli color engine or brake caliper paint on my, excllent finish.

[rondog]

I found my all correct, numbers matching No.5 in a pawn shop for $150. Can't say I've shot it enough to verify its accuracy, but it's probably better than me. Neat little rifle, I like it. Only one of my milsurps that I don't have a bayonet for though.

[303Guy]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111803&d=1383763448

Nice piece of timber! Straight grain from fore-end to butt and nice high Monte Carlo comb. I see it slopes down toward the receiver. Not everyone knows that is how recoil is taken away from the face.

Anyway, any chance of a photo, Typecaster?

[nekshot]

Ehaver, very nice indeed. My original #5 my son won't let me refinnish, so I live with the military finnish. He doesn't even wnt me to replace the dry rotted rubber butt or whatever its made from. Never saw any thing that came close to a wondering zero, biggish groubs yup, but no wondering around on the paper but then again I don't heat up the barrel with my kind of shooting.

[Typecaster]

No. 5 Mk III, mfg. 1/45, Fazakerley ( F )
"Customized" buttstock with genuine J.C. Higgins shotgun buttplate. Lovely hand-rubbed oil finish…smooth as silk. Next step is to check the rim headspace, then take it out to try when it cools down.

Richard

[robertbank]

Very nice rifle. I hope she is a shooter. No reason why it won't be.

Take Care

Bob