.44 special load with 240gr LSWC and AA#5

[Animal]

Howdy folks, I worked up my first load for my new Charter Arms Target Bulldog 4in Barrel. I used Hornaday LSWC with Winchester brass, Winchester LP primers and AA#5. I'm away from my notes and manual right now, but the OAL was set to the exact same as what is listed in the latest Hornaday manual.

According to the manual, the load that I settled on as being the most accurate load was 7.2gr, which should be pretty close to 700fps. I thought the higher end of the load, around 800fps would have been more accurate, but it was not. At least for my gun and my ability to shoot it.

My question is this; would a 240gr lead bullet traveling at 700fps be considered too slow to function as a "man-stopper"? When I look at the ballistic calculator on Handloads.com, it shows the energy to be significantly less than a traditional ball load from a .45acp, but the "momentum" and "Taylor KO factor" are almost the same.

I like big, slow moving bullets... but I'm concerned 700fps is a tad slow for what I'm trying to develop. Thanks!

240gr + 700fps + .431 = Energy 261 + Momentum 24 + Taylor KO 10 (.44 special)

230gr + 840fps + .452 = Energy 360 + Momentum 27 + Taylor KO 12 (.45 acp)

Does this stuff actually mean anything in the real world?

[Loudenboomer]

Animal. You could give the 200 gr. RNFP a try. Worked well in my bulldog and may give you the bump in speed your looking for.

[Animal]

I am interested in a 200gr mold with a big metplate, but it looks like all of those molds are only available in .428 or .429. What are you using?

[Lefty Red]

How about the 452 molds sized down? LEE has a nice RF and SWC around 250ish grains.
Jerry

[Animal]

Hmmm, I might give that a try and see what happens. I've got a .432 Lee sizing die that I may push one of my .45 acp boolits through.

[Animal]

Ok, pushing a .452 through a .432 ain't so easy! I may just look at regular .430 molds.

[Loudenboomer]

Animal the 200 RNFP Boolits I was using were commercial cast I got a good deal on a while back. If memory serves me correctly they were .430 diameter.
Have a Good Sunday

[50target]

Animal, I rather suspect that you are going to be limited by the platform you're using. The 240 lswc or standard rn may be all that will fit the cylinder. Going to the heavier 25-255 swc may not fit the cylinder as to OAL. Also getting the speed up to find the sweet spot, if there is one above 700fps may prove to be rough on you with that particular gun, not to mention rough on the gun. I don't think the 700 fps would be a big deal for me but I may want to work with a little heavier bullet for that speed to get all the mass I can. A good solid hit with what you're developing will work on a person. After all, tv and soda pop has taken a lot of the toughness out of us. Good luck with your venture and be safe and keep your eye on the Charter for signs it is close to its max.
Bob

[Animal]

50target, I think you are dead on. Now, I did find what I believe looks like possible discrepancies between Hornadays manual and Lees manual, which lead me to believe the 700ish fps is in question. I've got a thread going on about that in this same forum.

Something I've noticed is that people tend to compare the .44spl round with the .45acp round. I've been doing this myself. I suppose the .45acp is the "standard" that Americans like to judge stopping power off of.

I'll do some testing on wet phone books and forget about the velocity.

[lylejb]

Big bullets make big holes.

It's far more important that whatever round or load you choose is reliable, and you can shoot accurately with it.

Don't worry about some "expert's" formula. The 44 has much more going for it that any of the wonder9's that so many love.

[Alferd Packer]

Some extra info on loads specifically for the Charter Bulldog:
1) http://americanhandgunner.com/target-bulldog-44-special/




2) http://www.gunblast.com/Cassill_Bulldog.htm




3) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75620-Loads-for-Charter-Arms-44-Bulldog


4) http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/172717-44-speical-charter-arms-bulldog-carry.html




5) http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/172717-44-speical-charter-arms-bulldog-carry.html

[Alferd Packer]

Two friends of mine went in together and bought two of the Charter .44 Bulldogs almost 40 years ago.
When younger, they looked at the firebreathing loads, but decided to only shoot the .44 Russian loads.I remember they bought the .44 Russian Cases and reloaded with 180 grain wadcutters courtesy of a Lyman Mould that is not now available.
They also used a 200 grain .44 mold with a large meplat. The bullet looked a lot like the .44-200-CM which Lyman sells. They settled on that bullet with .44 Russian cases and .44 Russian reloading data.
The .44 Russian loads were and still are pretty effective loads. You may want to consider that alternative.

[Forrest r]

There's allot of different molds out there for the 44's, or you simply roll your own. I've owned/used/shot bulldogs for decades (80's) along with different 44spl revolvers. Down to only 2 different 44spls now but there both keepers, a snub nosed bulldog & a 6 1/2" bbl'd 624. I've found that the velocities drop of sharply in the short bbl'd 44spl's when shooting anything over a 220g boolit.

Some boolits/bullet I use in the bulldog:

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44splbulldog_zps97a896b0.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44splbulldog_zps97a896b0.jpg.html)

Top left: 200g spire point/ excellent for penetration
Top center: 220g solid/200g hp good design with large meplat & deep hp
Top right: 200g hb fp large meplat & can be turned around making a massive hp
Bottom left: 200g wc large meplat
Bottom center: 220g hbwc larget meplat & massive hp when turned around
Bottom right: 40s&w cases swaged into jacketed 220g hbwc's same as their lead counterpart but deadlier when used as a hp

I'd ditch the accurate #5 and get some unique, 2400, power pistol or bluedot. Any of those powders and boolits above will easily get you in the 850fps+ range and a couple of them in the 900fps range. The lighter boolits are also allot better for plinking in the light weight pistols.

The lead 220g hbwc's shot from the bulldog with a full house load of power pistol.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44hbwcaround.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44hbwcaround.jpg.html)

The 40s&w hbwc's along with 9mm cases turned into 38spl hbwc's for the snub nosed 44spl & 38spl, both shot with full house loads of power pistol.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/firedtop.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/firedtop.jpg.html)

Sometimes it pays to think outside the box, those jacketed hbwc's are cave man simple to make and are extremely accurate when used as a traditional hbwc.

[Animal]

Forrest r, would you care to share some details on the mold that the top center and top right fell out off?

[Animal]

Alfred, thanks for the links. Some of that I've looked at already but some is new.

[Animal]

Well folks, I loaded up 45 more of the Hornaday LSWC bullets ahead of 7.2gr AA#5. If I can repeat the same ragged hole at 7 yards (I'm no sharpshooter), have a clean session (no problems with little greenish/yellowish powder grains causing any issue), then I'll be satisfied with the bullet weight/powder combo.

I'm really hoping the 240 grainers do well. I've noticed very little support from the commercial mold makers for a .430dia mold below 240gr. I suppose soft .429 will work, but I don't want to waste lead, powder, primers, money on a mold and a day of casting just to find out that .429 is to small.

As far as ditching the AA#5, I am open to that. But, I haven't seen a bottle of Unique in so long, I'm not sure I'd recognize it if I saw it. I do have some Blue Dot and 2400... but something tells me that these powders are just a tad over the top for my lightweight revolver. I like Blue Dot plenty fine in my magnum loads, and 2400 works, but I'm going to need to hear some good stories from CA Bulldog owners before I venture down that road. My experience with 2400 tells me that I'll have a lot of unburned powder clogging up my gun unless I'm shooting close to the max... My poor hand and gun cringe at this.

I've seen load data for them... maybe I'm just scared? feel free to enlighten me. I'm interested.

[Animal]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/509153/saeco-2-cavity-bullet-mold-420-44-special-44-remington-magnum-430-diameter-200-grain-truncated-cone?cm_vc=ProductFinding#ReviewHeader

I splurged. It was on sell. Saeco seemed to fill the nitch I was after. There is no way I would have paid full price for it! Now I just have to modify my lee 6 cav handles to work with it.

I always seem to justify the cost of a new mold by thinking of the cost of commercial cast. 94.00 shipped is worth it.

[Animal]

Wow, what can I say? I just finished playing with 45 of the 7.2gr AA#5 charge that I developed with the 240swc. Everything about the feel and accuracy was just plain pleasant. It grouped very well, turning 5 holes into one big hole. Recoil was mild, it was fairly quiet... heck, I think it even smelled good. (don't laugh, you know you have some loads that seem to smell better than others). It wasn't hard to recover a few bullets. The ones I found had a little mushrooming effect.

However, it was a bit too dirty. There was just enough left over powder debris to prevent the rounds from reliably falling into the chamber. I found myself having to push 2 out of 5 in place each time. Before I took the rounds out to my range, I dropped each one in the cylinders to make sure all of them chambered properly and they did... perfectly. So, I will be experimenting with different powders after I cast up a few hundred boolits.

[Forrest r]

It's hard to beat the saeco molds, nice buy.

The 2 boolits you asked abot, top center is a 220g solid or 200g hp h&g/saeco #142 mold that has been factory hp'd on 1 side. The top right is a raphine rf boolit. They sold a 212g solid version and that 1, a 196g hb boolit.

I wouldn't recomend bluedot or 2400 for a daily plinking load but those powders will take care of business if they have to.