Bright light/concentration/target size ????????

[357maximum]

Managed to burn the lawnmowers deck drive belt up this afternoon so I decided to make some noise out back. Went in the house and picked up my 21 inch barrelled sporter 308 (my normal fun gun) that started as a 1916 civil guardia mauser. This gun came to me in full military dress but with a great bore, saw it on a guys shoulder at a gunshow 4 years or so ago and had to have it, price was right too. I fit into a Boyds RIA sporter stock and cut the barre to 21inchesl with a hacksaw/trued everything up with files and a machinist square and simply chamfered the crown with a burr and then lapped the crown with a homemade brass lap and 300 grit clover. It is about one step above a bubba special and that is only because of the nice wood I got from Boyd's. It wears a Williams reciever peep with a force fit threading of an adjustable iris and some recycled front sights that are either Lyman or Remington???


Well here is the deal...normally this gun will shoot a touch over MOA to 1.5 with this load in dull light conditions at 100 and keep all shots (well 99%) fired on a 3 inch 200 yard swinger, my preferred/normal shooting time. I load this gun with stripper clips and I shoot it till I get bored as fast as I can just as I did today. I am not a fan of bright sun by any stretch in general. Today the sun was burning bright directly overhead as bad as it gets and I could watch the front sight dance. I was also shooting paper simply due to the fact that I hardly never shoot paper once a load is "worked" as it bores me, but I felt like it today. I have MOA sized steel swingers to fix that boredom issue (simple minds like simple things) :lol:

Normally while working a load I shoot 1/4, 1/2 to 1.5 inch diameter dots (depending on sight or scope setup) ...well I had no normal targets made up so I used boughten targets that were a gift...something I never do...they is too big and it fouls up my brain especially when not using a scope. Aim small miss small you know.


Today I shot at 5 3/5 inch Shoot-N-SEE bull at 100 and a 8 inch bull type normal target at 200. My 100 yard group was gawdawful at about 2 1/4 X 3 inches and my 200 yard group was 1 1/4 X 3 1/4.

So was it the sun,anger over the lawnmower takin a nap and no place to get parts today, lack of concentration big target he sun or just the fact that I do not find it fun to shoot paper, especially with this gun? I switched over to the steel 3 inch swinger at 200 and never missed it in 8 or 9 strippers worth of ammo....what gives? What do paper targets prove again?


Everyone always wants all sorts of data so here Ya be.




32.6grains Rel10X
CCI 200 sparkplug
Mixed RA/WCC mil brass (1X fired)
Lee group buy 311291 made of 50% COWW/ 50% Lead Pipe cast/waterdropped/loaded 4+ years ago and put into 30 caliber ammo cans.....bulk loaded on a dillon 550 with no case prep other than crimp removal.
Average velocity over a friends chrony was 2454 fps. 10 shot groups....some sister holes in the mix.

and I got targets...really really bad ones just to prove it happenened....had my sister load em just to prove how bad a bad day can be....some people detest paper targets once the load workup is done......whatcha all think of that???


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/308spaniard001_zps309e9a9f.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/357maximum/media/308spaniard001_zps309e9a9f.jpg.html)


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/308spaniard002_zpsd6fd63d3.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/357maximum/media/308spaniard002_zpsd6fd63d3.jpg.html)

[plainsman456]

I think that the lawnmower is your best alibi.:bigsmyl2:

I have had days like that when using a known load that just make me wonder why i went to shoot in the first place.

[badgeredd]

Gee! Still can't shoot iron sights huh? Wait til Bruce sees this...he'll have a field day for sure.

Seriously, it could be your aversion to paper targets, more care talen when shooting the longer distance, the suns relection on the individual targets, a combination of all OR you just can't shoot open sights!:bigsmyl2::kidding::coffeecom Did you do this? :Fire:

Edd

[357maximum]

Gee! Still can't shoot iron sights huh? Wait til Bruce sees this...he'll have a field day for sure.

Seriously, it could be your avaersion to paper targets, more care talen when shooting the longer distance, the suns relection on the individual targets, a combination of all OR you just can't shoot open sights!:bigsmyl2::kidding::coffeecom Did you do this? :Fire:

Edd


Well at least I will not get accused of making the groups with a hole punch :lol:

I really do hate paper targets for anything other than load workup and making sure all is well before killing season.

Hey it's Independance Day....Happy INDEPENDANCE DAY YALL...now go blow something up and turn MONEY into pretty colored sparks...that's my plan.


Mike out

[Larry Gibson]

I think that's very good shooting, especially with aperture sights.

But I've got say you had a real potent lot of RL10 there.....32.6 gr under a 311291 with 2454 fps out of a 21" barreled .308W! Back a few years when I tested RL10 with a Lyman 311291 in a 22" barreled.308W 32 gr ran 1941 fps.......:sad:. But what the hey, I was only using and Oehler M35P, it was just a Lyman cast out of COWWs + 2% tin, my bullets nor the loaded ammo had 'aged" as your had and I used .6 gr less powder. That wasn't joe's Chrony was it?

As to the shooting; I'd say the paper showed 3" =/- at 200 yard capability and the dinger was 3". I'd say you were shooting good, that's what I think of that! Well done but you might want to re chronograph that load, just a suggestion.

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Might I ask you to post pictures of the boolits and loaded cartridges please? I do think that the larger and more boring targets are to blame. I once shot a Rossi 357 carbine with the sun high but behind me and got a vertical group of about an inch and a half while the horizontal spread was little more than the boolit diameter (at 100 metres). I put the vertical spread down to the way the sun was glinting on the front sight, making it difficult to discern the sight hight.

[35 shooter]

LOL.. i can say from experience...don't ever try to shoot for group after getting off a lawn mower..especially after it broke down on you! Yep, i'd say a combination of bright sun on the sights and the lawn mower. Besides, i've never met you, but know for a fact you shoot good groups.
I copied your old load work in the 35 whelen with 4350 powder and my 200 gr. noe's shoot lights out with one of your favorite loads. I also worked up to your max load but was using straight ww ht. and groups opened up for me. I believe you had copper and babbit in your alloy, so i have no doubts you did it right where you said you did on the high end.
With straight ww ht. i got within 2 1/2 gr. of your max in that old thread with 1 1/2" and better accuracy @ 100 yds.
I think you were a mod. back then and you caught a lot of flack in that thread for posting the speeds you were getting but i'm just lettin you know it helped me go faster in my whelen and accurately.
Just wanted to take the time to say a big THANKS for that old thread!!! I found it when i was doing a search here for "shooting for speed in 35 whelen". I haven't chronoed it, but according to your posts back then i should be about 2500 fps. I really don't care what the speed is, i just like the accuracy of the load.

[MBTcustom]

First of all, the lawnmower thing. It doesn't matter what I am doing, if it shakes me it makes me jumpy. If it stresses me, it makes me hurried, and if things are just generally not going my way, I save my powder and lead.
I have also noticed that light can have a dramatic effect on my group size, especially with unprotected aperture sights.
Finally, those shoot-n-see targets are practically useless unless you have an aperture that fits them closely at the range you are shooting. I agree with you. Aim small, miss small.
I think you did darn well considering!

BTW, what brand hole punch did you use there?
:kidding:

[357maximum]

Might I ask you to post pictures of the boolits and loaded cartridges please? I do think that the larger and more boring targets are to blame. I once shot a Rossi 357 carbine with the sun high but behind me and got a vertical group of about an inch and a half while the horizontal spread was little more than the boolit diameter (at 100 metres). I put the vertical spread down to the way the sun was glinting on the front sight, making it difficult to discern the sight hight.


I will see what I can do to accomodate that request...it will be at least a few days before I make it back to a computer that is not on dial-up hooked to a landline that is iffy/statciky at best. I normally shoot in less the glaring conditions..I will try again as time/conditions allow.......I am not a sun worshipper for many many reasons. I would live in a cave if SWMBO'ed would allow it,,,,plus caves are in rather short supply in Michigan corn/bean land...oh well cannot have everything.

[357maximum]

I copied your old load work in the 35 whelen with 4350 powder and my 200 gr. noe's shoot lights out with one of your favorite loads. I also worked up to your max load but was using straight ww ht. and groups opened up for me. I believe you had copper and babbit in your alloy, so i have no doubts you did it right where you said you did on the high end.
With straight ww ht. i got within 2 1/2 gr. of your max in that old thread with 1 1/2" and better accuracy @ 100 yds.
I think you were a mod. back then and you caught a lot of flack in that thread for posting the speeds you were getting but i'm just lettin you know it helped me go faster in my whelen and accurately.
Just wanted to take the time to say a big THANKS for that old thread!!! I found it when i was doing a search here for "shooting for speed in 35 whelen". I haven't chronoed it, but according to your posts back then i should be about 2500 fps. I really don't care what the speed is, i just like the accuracy of the load.


Thank you and you are welcome....speed normally only comes to those that seek it. Mya alloy for that spectrum in the Whelen is nothing more than waterdropped 50COWW/50 asst SOft lead (pipe mostly) and 5% railroad babbit added to that mix.....I do not require the enhanced copper babbits for the whelen until I push 2700...and I found out the hard way that them loads kill deer a bit deader than I need to.....all I need it the lower end load. Just because you may seek a top end rip roaring load does not mean you actually have a need for it....sure is nice to know what can be done though....if nothing more than to satisfy oneselfs WHAT IF???

[357maximum]

BTW, what brand hole punch did you use there?
:kidding:




It was Oveido brand :drinks: but do not tell no one I may want another one and I do not want demand to go up before I get another.......I like em and want one in 7X57 someday......I just am not willing to push on them too hard......they is older than Waksupi's underwear ya know. It might be ok, but I do not wanna be the one that has to show mangled flesh pics on the net....them all look painful to me.

[44man]

I hate paper too and sun stinks.
I made a test some time ago by clamping a scope to a picnic table in the morning, sighted on a target at 200 yards. Sun rose on the left and as it went across the sky, the cross hairs came out of the center to the left and climbed a large circle around the bull, then way down to the bottom and finally back to center. I looked through every 15 minutes. Cross hairs followed the sun, target moved away from it in other words so the target is not where you see it.
Does the same with open sights. Even 10 minutes to run a group will have the target move. Any breeze with mirage will move the target.
How a sniper makes a first shot hit at 1000 when the target is not where he sees it is a mystery. Be easy to see a target more then 2' from where it is at long range.
Open sights need to be flat black or undercut. Anything that glows is no good and even those S&W plastic inserts will ruin a picture.

[JohnH]

I thought on this overnight and have two conclusions, irons suck, the sun sucks and my eyesight sucks, and the older I get the worse the combination thereof is. Second, some days the dragon wins...

[45 2.1]

I made a test some time ago by clamping a scope to a picnic table in the morning, sighted on a target at 200 yards. Sun rose on the left and as it went across the sky, the cross hairs came out of the center to the left and climbed a large circle around the bull, then way down to the bottom and finally back to center. I looked through every 15 minutes. Cross hairs followed the sun, target moved away from it in other words so the target is not where you see it.


You observed a phenomena that in the surveying business is called "walking". The sun hits the tripod legs. they heat, expand and the line of sight changes. When it is covered with shade again for 15 minutes, it returns to it's original line of sight.

[44man]

You observed a phenomena that in the surveying business is called "walking". The sun hits the tripod legs. they heat, expand and the line of sight changes. When it is covered with shade again for 15 minutes, it returns to it's original line of sight.
True but I had the scope and bench in the shade all day, cool day.
I did it because shooting BPCR we took sighters before record shots and settings never were the same as my book said. As the day went on it got harder to get on steel, first shooters at long range in the morning had it easier. Sun was more behind then. Also easier for a spotter to watch boolits go all the way to 500 meters.
I have the same problem on my range which is down in my valley in shade but late in the day when the sun is over the target or behind it, I play the devil shooting groups. Glare gets bad.
We have variables out of our control, not caused by us.
There has to be bending of light waves from the sun.
Watched surveyors around here and they never find original markers.

[Hamish]

Uh, more importantly than all of this other blather, how about a pic of that rifle?

[357maximum]

Sgt. Mike


While I understand EXACTLY what you are saying...my steel targets hang 2-3 feet above clay soil hangin on chain or nylon straps with either screened sand or clay backstops...no rocks to bounce er in off from...that would require a 3+ foot low hit and a lucky ricochet...I am not good enough to bounce em in accurately. Hits on small plates/gongs makes me smile and pokin holes in paper makes me bored to tears. My targets tell me whether or not it is deer worthy and to what ranges using real targets............. Everyone has their opinions on this matter...our differs no biggie. Braggin rights???? I hate wallet groups.....When a guy shows me 'THE WALLET GROUP" I giggle.....yep that is great accuracy at 100 now what can you do with that load in the real world? I have taken guys with awesome 100 yard wallet groups and give them a waterfilled milkjugs at 200-300-400 yards and it is amazing how many fail to hit em.....SCOPED 06 CLASS DEER RIFLES HERE WTH?????


Do what you believe and what makes you happy......I DO even if I have to thumb my nose at "conventional wisdom" I am unconventional and I am not real wise....so....it twerks fer me. :drinks:

[357maximum]

ok this meant to be humorous whattt your doubt he has such a animal LMAO.

BTW Hamish you do get the hurt feelings reports as well as the complaints?:kidding:

Gentlemen on the serious side good post /topic, in my opinion



I guarantee he doubts not....he is just asking me to do what I should have. I would have but we were getting ready to "go" and SWMBO was tiring of me diddlin with the camera so I could take it to my Sisters. It will get a pic taken of it, but it is not remarkable in any form.

Mike...on the Spanish hole punch...it would have to be a really really small fee at this time....really small.

[357maximum]

I thought on this overnight and have two conclusions, irons suck, the sun sucks and my eyesight sucks, and the older I get the worse the combination thereof is. Second, some days the dragon wins...


That was proably the most accurate shot ever fired on this forum. :drinks: I am just now entering that eyesight thing and I already dislike it. For my normal shooting though "Irons" just make it " occassionally different"..... as long as I can accurately engage a 250 yard raccoon sized target at will, I will keep using them on a few toys. When the day comes I cannot....thats was drill presses are for....I know that day is coming eventually.....watched too many relatives go through it to think otherwise...kind thought it was funny back then and picked on them about it as I out shot them.

It is no longer funny :sad:

[44man]

44 man in your book (fromBPCR) was the light conditions recorded I only ask as the local sniper school here does teach to record that and treat it as a variable. As they fire in differant light conditions and record it, just don't know if that helps or not.
Not really but you are so right about keeping records for the light conditions. I am too lazy for that.

[357maximum]

. I am too lazy for that.

You are not alone :drinks: Most my "important" shots take place near dusk or dawn and I do not require much out of a rifle/handgun/specialty type single shot pistol. Can I always kill a deer with it at 250 yards? That be the only question I need to answer. I dare say I have never launched a boolit 1000 yards...not on purpose anyway. I have never even attempted to engage a dirt clod type target beyond 600...and that was just for the **ll of it. Different strokes for different folks.

[44man]

Sgt. Mike


While I understand EXACTLY what you are saying...my steel targets hang 2-3 feet above clay soil hangin on chain or nylon straps with either screened sand or clay backstops...no rocks to bounce er in off from...that would require a 3+ foot low hit and a lucky ricochet...I am not good enough to bounce em in accurately. Hits on small plates/gongs makes me smile and pokin holes in paper makes me bored to tears. My targets tell me whether or not it is deer worthy and to what ranges using real targets............. Everyone has their opinions on this matter...our differs no biggie. Braggin rights???? I hate wallet groups.....When a guy shows me 'THE WALLET GROUP" I giggle.....yep that is great accuracy at 100 now what can you do with that load in the real world? I have taken guys with awesome 100 yard wallet groups and give them a waterfilled milkjugs at 200-300-400 yards and it is amazing how many fail to hit em.....SCOPED 06 CLASS DEER RIFLES HERE WTH?????


Do what you believe and what makes you happy......I DO even if I have to thumb my nose at "conventional wisdom" I am unconventional and I am not real wise....so....it twerks fer me. :drinks:
This is good my friend. 3D targets are easier then paper and can show what your gun will do. I have a real problem with guys that say it is where you hit an animal since most have 4" or more at 100 but say shoot the brain or neck. Get real. Most hunters can't hit a standing deer from a rest ANYWHERE! You need 1/2" groups to hit a spine and a good rest.
I still remember a friend that claimed he shot a running antelope at 400 yards, I asked where he aimed, he said "right at it". Yeah, sure!
I have shot too many deer running full bore with shotguns, flinters, rifles and revolvers and my lead is automatic. i can't explain it, just happens. A walking deer to most hunters is too much. I do not stop a walking deer when archery hunting either. Simple reason is the deer can jump the shot when alerted.
i did have "wallet" groups when we shot ML's 5 shots at 50 in a ragged hole. I now have hundreds in a cabinet from all kinds of guns. I could duplicate them any time. Not so much today at my age and shaking.
Ever hear of "buck fever"? I have friends that are super shots but miss every deer. tell them to hit "HERE" and get a laugh. Give me the right rifle from a good rest and I can shoot a deer in the eye at 400 yards or even 600 but that is not the average hunter. Most hunting is off hand and is how I shoot revolvers. Never figured out a rest from a tree stand when deer come in from anywhere.

[JohnH]

.....watched too many relatives go through it to think otherwise...kind thought it was funny back then and picked on them about it as I out shot them.

It is no longer funny :sad:

Little brother and I teased Dad unmercifully... Dad is certainly having the last laugh:drinks:

[swheeler]

Mike I never heard of an Oviedo shotgun? The 21 inch cylinder bore barrel is the problem, 28 inch full choke would have patterned tighter!:):):):):)

[MBTcustom]

I know it's off topic, but speaking of shooting steel plates, a buddy of mine has his reloading room in an upstairs loft. There is a window in this upstairs loft directly adjacent to a banister. If you sit in the chair conveniently located next to the banister, and look out yon window over yon, you see a pond about 100 yards distant. On the opposite bank of that pond, you see two small white objects.
Then, if you pick up the fully suppressed bolt action .22 from where it is convenietly located next to the chair and the banister, and look through the scope, you see that the two white objects are steel plate targets. One is rectangle and almost exactly the size of a deck of playing cards. It's brother beside it is about half as big and is an isosceles triangle.
There is no recoil. There is no weight to the rifle. It has 12X magnification, and it is zeroed to hit those specific targets at 100 yards. There is no sweat running in your eyes. The light is always perfect (feel free to dim the lights if that's your favorite excuse) The trigger is 2.5lb. and the chair is comfortable. There is a 1gallon jug full of pennies to use as a rest.
Now, try dinging that dam triangle 10 for 10! I can do the rectangle no problemo, but that little triangle was cursed by Satan himself.

Point is, anybody who thinks shooting steel wont make you a better shot is either standing too close to the targets, or the targets are just too big. LOL!
Really doesn't matter what your group size is. Most folks can't make that thing do "TINK!!!" every single time.
I think targets are good for showing what the rifle can do, and steel is good for showing what you can do, and making you better.
I'm going to be setting up a 6" disk at 400 yards. Should be interesting!

[John Boy]

Lee group buy 311291 made of 50% COWW/ 50% Lead Pipe cast/waterdropped
? ... Base diameter of cast bullets
? ... Groove diameter of rifle
If the bullets are not obturating - their not going to print tight groups!

[357maximum]

ahemm not funny. sorry hmmm I know what it was meant to be just my 2 cents

and Goodsteel your statement of "I think targets are good for showing what the rifle can do, and steel is good for showing what you can do, and making you better." I CANNOT agree more.



Added:
357 PLease accept my public apoligy for cause this drift I really never intent for that to happen, again I am Sorry Sir.
Have a great day
Mike



Mike

No apology necessary...it is Castboolits and this iceburg is always adrift. The best reading I have ever had here was from "adrift" subjects. It is what it is, and somehow it works.


Scott was just tweaking my nipples...no harm intended...I would have done it to him.

You are correct...Goodsteel nailed it with that statement.

Once a load is proven to be a good one on paper...I fail to see the point of poking more holes in paper just to have a braggin section in ones wallet. Ringing 1-2-3 moa steel targets with milsurps/bubba sporters, pistols/ or smoking 4 inch rocks at 250 with an old 1903-A3/ or bouncing cans at 100 with a 10/22/ or breaking 2 inch mini skeet laying on a 250 yard hillside with a 1400fps duplex loaded 410 grain 45/70, etc,etc, etc keep ya shooting....you see some "kids" never ever get over that "I wanna break something with it" mode....I have not :drinks: nor do I mean to.

That system just plain works too good for me.

I have deer hunted with alot of people...the ones that "play" almost always do better than the guy that shoots a few groups on paper and carries them "bugholes" around with him......somehow that "play" must condition the subconcious in a better way for real life targets.....that is not a theory.....just a guess made from observation.

[357maximum]

? ... Base diameter of cast bullets
? ... Groove diameter of rifle
If the bullets are not obturating - their not going to print tight groups!


The rifle shoots better than what is posted, the load is a good one....Conditions/mental state, etc, etc and a loose nut looser than normal behind the bolt was the "cause"....you will just have to take my word for now.

[MBTcustom]

Mike

I have deer hunted with alot of people...the ones that "play" almost always do better than the guy that shoots a few groups on paper and carries them "bugholes" around with him......somehow that "play" must condition the subconcious in a better way for real life targets.....that is not a theory.....just a guess made from observation.

When I'm shooting for groups, I just can't think of it like i'm shooting paper. Doesn't work. I have to believe that something is going to happen down there. When I was shooting archery, our mantra was "be the arrow, visualize the shot, see the impact before it happens." That is very hard with a rifle as I very rarely see the boolit in flight, and even if I do, it's so quick that my mind can't get the feedback it needs. If I happen to be shooting a scope that will allow me to see the boolit holes, then all is well, but with irons I can shoot much better at a physical object than a piece of paper that does not move.
That gratifying "Tink!!!" is like Pavlov's solution to better shooting.
Of course if you have a rifle that will not shoot accurately enough to hit the target consistently, you have to go back to paper.

[357maximum]

Mike I never heard of an Oviedo shotgun? The 21 inch cylinder bore barrel is the problem, 28 inch full choke would have patterned tighter!:):):):):)


It wasn't a choke problem ya know...should have had some tungsten in there and it would have been better :lol: I have seen a few smooth barrelled Oveidos...they is out there. :drinks:

[44man]

We understood, no ill was intended from anyone. We really do get along.
Off topic is also life here so please never stop. When you express your thoughts, much is learned.
But steel plates present a different picture with light conditions so that is not off topic. A pop can at range is much easier to hit then paper. I think it is the 3D thing.

[Dale in Louisiana]

the old saying from the firing line was "Light's up, sight's up!"

This was particularly important with iron sights and round bullseye targets.

Scientifically speaking, the the higher light level tends to make black objects like your front sight blade and the bullseye you're aiming at APPEAR to be smaller. That means that to get the old 'pumpkin on a fencepost' sight picture, you raise the front sight a little bit to make up for it appearing shorter, and you raise it a little more because the bullseye appears smaller. In steady light conditions, both of these can be compensated with your two sighters, but when you have clouds moving over, alternating between full sun and shade, you either compensate with the changing conditions, chasing the change, or you find yourself with a neat vertical string going.

dale in Louisiana

[357maximum]

When I'm shooting for groups, I just can't think of it like i'm shooting paper. Doesn't work. I have to believe that something is going to happen down there. When I was shooting archery, our mantra was "be the arrow, visualize the shot, see the impact before it happens." That is very hard with a rifle as I very rarely see the boolit in flight, and even if I do, it's so quick that my mind can't get the feedback it needs. If I happen to be shooting a scope that will allow me to see the boolit holes, then all is well, but with irons I can shoot much better at a physical object than a piece of paper that does not move.
That gratifying "Tink!!!" is like Pavlov's solution to better shooting.
Of course if you have a rifle that will not shoot accurately enough to hit the target consistently, you have to go back to paper.


Exactly.....apparently I am being read wrong....or writing it wrong. I am saying once the load is worked and YOU know what "IT" can do and have the confidence that the paperwork is right/correct/done/finished....it is time to do the same to yourself......and I LOVE the Pavlov statement.

I am the same way with shotguns....that is why I excel at registered skeet/sportin clays/crazy quail type games, and I suck royally on the trap range.......some of us have a brain that is it's own enemy at times.....for some(me) it is better to play games that only require one heisphere or the other. Likely the very same reason I cannot shoot a decent group while shooting through chronagraph screens......It is something I simply cannot do. I shoot for groups while working a load to the theoretical velocity I seek.....then and only then do I check that over a chronagraph while the boolits are going into a big stump that cannot be missed. Each of us must deal with what we were given and to seek fun where it lies for us. I was not condemming the guy that wants to poke holes in paper all day.....I was just saying that is not my bag. Paper punching serves only two purposes for ME....load workup, and verification...beyond that well I like to make things dance or make noise. Case in point.....A friend helped me build a stubbed 38Special rifle onto a H&R handi....at 250 yards with the BRP hornady clone and a pinch of WW231 you have time to enjoy the silence before the bong/bing/wap of the boolit hitting steel....that gun almost gives me a reaction that cannot be described on this family oriented forum......yep that gun is almost always out of ammo for some reason. :evil:

[canyon-ghost]

goodsteel brings a good point to light. A paper target can be too large. My best 100 yard targets are poster paper and a sharpie. I pull out a quarter, draw around it and blacken it in. The small focal point keeps you from getting "bullseye boredom" from too large sized point of aim.

[357maximum]

"Bullseye Boredom" .....can we get that added to the terminology list here. :drinks:

That is basically how I make my targets, but with every passing year the bullseye gets a bit bigger for the 200 yard plus use with non scoped guns. I like them 1/2 inch diameter yardsale stickers for scoped rifle use....makes my brain try harder I guess.

[Larry Gibson]

Been shooting steel targets for many, many years. 1st real steel target I shot was at Fort Ord in January/February of '65. It was a PC hulk at 150 meters and I shot it with a 3.5" rocket launcher.....was hooked right there!. I've shot lots of steel since then having made and use "F" and "E" targets out of steel for training not only stateside but overseas. I still have a very nice "E" steel target I shoot out to 1400 yards, lots of fun.

I have also shot a lot of smaller steel targets/dingers on numerous ranges over the years. Have watched a lot of others shoot them also. The problem with the smaller dingers is most only recall and enjoy the memory of the hits. Few learn anything from the misses. My own opinion is it is just as easy to hit a paper target as a pop can or steel dinger. Has to do with marksmanship is all. Bullseyes of 5 -6" at 100 yards and 8 - 12" at 200 yards have been standard for 140+ years. Anyone should be quite able to shoot as accuracy with aperture sights on those bulleyes as on a pop can, pea can or milk jug. That fact has been proven over and over again on ranges for 140+ years. Probably why they use bullseyes in matches instead of pop cans or milk jugs......... But then paper targets are not forgiving as to the misses. They tell truthfully where the misses went out of the bullseye. Now I've got to say that 8-9 x 5 on a 3" dinger at 200 yards w/o a miss is quite a feat.....40 - 45 straight hits! To say that I am impressed would be an understatement!

Larry Gibson

[JohnH]

Do I assume too much? Proper bullseye technique is to aim at the bottom of the circle, i.e. place the very bottom of the black on the top edge of the front sight, and to regulate the sights to strike center of target. This gives a clear crisp picture of the point of aim. Regulating sights so that point of impact is on at top edge of front sight destroys one's ability for precise aim, everything is black.

Regulating for hunting is different from target shooting. One wants the impact to be on the top edge of the front sight (to hit where one is looking) The solution when setting up sights for hunting but shooting at paper is to ignore the scoring rings, use a bullseye hold, and let the impact be at the bottom of the black Who cares what "score is when one is shooting for group. Conversely, when one is shooting to hit who cares what group size is. A hit on a pop can is a hit on a pop can, is a hit on steel is a hit on a milk jug. Pavlov's tink is satisfied. The confusion comes when we shoot paper and confuse "tink" with "group". Here's the reality, every one of the hits in 357's (if I may be forgiven for abbreviating) photos is a "tink" but the mind, convinced that groups on paper must be round and regular sees "lousy". Overlay the "tinks" on a groundhog and you have dead every time. (Hope I haven't repeated what someone else has already said)

[357maximum]

JohnH

Well stated......when shooting at distance (on paper) with irons set to hit dead on I normally shoot at the smallest dot I can see well/aim at well and the boolits fall where they may on the target....it matters not to me if the boolits land on white or black colored paper. When shooting at steel/rocks/cans whatever at ranges beyond "dead on hold" I aim where I need to to make the boolit hit where I want it to.....some call it Kentucky Windage......... HoldOver...whatever...... ....shooting at a high dot on target and comparing where the boolits actually land and mentally recording that drop repeatedly actually helps train MY BRAIN where I need to aim for when it really counts out yonder. This method may not be for everyone, but it works for me and I do not see me changing a system that works FOR ME. I never have been fond of the 6 o'clock type holds, but when you are playing with someone elses toys so sighted.... I have done it and it works good nuff most times. I just happen to prefer the sighted dead on method. To each their own......I shoot to make me happy not anyone else.

[swheeler]

It wasn't a choke problem ya know...should have had some tungsten in there and it would have been better :lol: I have seen a few smooth barrelled Oveidos...they is out there. :drinks:

Mike I couldn't resist yankin your chain a little! You knows me:) I'm with you all the way I rather blast a beer can, gong or critter any day of the week than punch paper.

[357maximum]

Mike I couldn't resist yankin your chain a little! You knows me:) I'm with you all the way I rather blast a beer can, gong or critter any day of the week than punch paper.

AhhhhhhhhhhhMEN!

[swheeler]

ahemm not funny. sorry hmmm I know what it was meant to be just my 2 cents

and Goodsteel your statement of "I think targets are good for showing what the rifle can do, and steel is good for showing what you can do, and making you better." I CANNOT agree more.



Added:
357 PLease accept my public apoligy for cause this drift I really never intent for that to happen, again I am Sorry Sir.
Have a great day
Mike

I sure Mike laughed just as hard reading it as I did typing it, so yes funny.

[swheeler]

AhhhhhhhhhhhMEN!



I sent Pat I a picture of muzzleloader target I shot(I wouldn't post it here:)) 50 yds no less, think he said he fell out of the chair laughing and choking, hell I thunk I did good with opens:):):)

Edit- same gun, same load and same ol jerk behind the trigger took whitetail doe at 150 paces:)

[JohnH]

JohnH
To each their own......I shoot to make me happy not anyone else.

+1. Me, I'm a paper puncher till I get bored, then I drag out some steel and bang away, but I like groups. However, the point of shootin' is hittin' and if one can't hit, great groups off a bench and bags don't mean diddlysquat. Two different arts, two different games, two different goals.

[country gent]

A trick a lot of high power service rifle shooter use to help with glare and light is to use an little carbide burner to smoke the sights giving a dead black surface. A little calcium carbide water and the burner miners lamp produces acetylene gas which gives off a very flat black soot and helps stop glares.

[357maximum]

I just ran out and tried it again...this time with the sun glaring in real bad from my right and lower in the sky.

I used a circle about an 1 1/4 at 100 (traced around a 20 oz soda cap)...group was about 2 1/4 L to R and 1 3/4 up/down and would have been a bit smaller if I could try one of the shots over....must been a flinch jerk anurism thing... group would have been a nice round 1.5 inch without that pesky hole...it was the 3rd shot that left me a bit??.....all shots would have killed a beercan dead if I were shooting at it sideways...shooting at the bottom of the can I would have had that one solid miss.

I traced around a muffin ingot for the 200 yard target it was about a 2 5/8 target and could stand to be a big bigger...I was having trouble tonight with the sun glaring from the side like that. I was not trying to hit the target, just shooting at it and letting the boolits go low and the group was.....drumsticks please.....3 1/2 X 3 3/4 ......all shots were more than minute of whitetail or a FAT raccoon...the one redeeming thing about it I guess.


...I decided not to pop on the steel tonight.....deemed it pointless as there was about 3 solid misses in that 200 yard group had I been shooting my plate.

I noticed I was hanging a bit right the other day and it was even worse tonight (sighted in on 42 grains of W748 and the BRP 30SIlhouette boolit made of different alloy).....gonna have to move me sight a bit perhaps after I check it on a cloudy day in order to keep using these loads up. I actually forgot which load it was sighted in for I guess.


Did manage to get the target pic uploaded...tried 5 pics 3 made it through....wooohooo best luck I have had in many many months.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/308spaniard006_zps9f9e5c2c.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/357maximum/media/308spaniard006_zps9f9e5c2c.jpg.html)


:lol:

[357maximum]

I sent Pat I a picture of muzzleloader target I shot(I wouldn't post it here:)) 50 yds no less, think he said he fell out of the chair laughing and choking, hell I thunk I did good with opens:):):)

Edit- same gun, same load and same ol jerk behind the trigger took whitetail doe at 150 paces:)


We have all had bad days/weeks it happens......wanna ruin my group....stare at me super intently as I shoot it.....thats all it takes some days. I am actually surprised I hold up as well as I do when our little group gets together to shoot....I quit competitive archery for a reason...and that was it. Most days I would be ok but when it truly mattered in that game I would flub it up.....my brain is not always my friend.....I have come to accept that fact..itis what it is.

[357maximum]

As requested pics of the rifle...I tried for more pics and pic of the loaded round....failure.... but we got what we got:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/308spaniard004_zps9c0f4eac.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/357maximum/media/308spaniard004_zps9c0f4eac.jpg.html)

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/308spaniard003_zps3c9314bd.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/357maximum/media/308spaniard003_zps3c9314bd.jpg.html)

[sthwestvictoria]

109848
http://i57.tinypic.com/rroaxi.jpg
I have found that with open sights I like the inverted triangle for good contrast and somewhere to aim at. For scoped work I use a circle and hold at six o'clock. These two targets are the same load - shot with the circle target first then with the inverted triangle the group really improves.

[357maximum]

SWV ...thanks for the hint...I will cobble up some targets like that and try it next time out. I have always shot round or square targets, but the square targets sitting on their point did seem to work better.....hmmmmm says I.......THANK YOU

[swheeler]

That is a nice looking mauser! Nothing wrong with either target especially with a peep. I'm feared everything I own will have to be scoped soon:( ifin I want to hit anything.

If not scoped I'll have to invest in one of those Tenn bughole keyboards for the net:):)

[MBTcustom]

You know, good eyesight is wasted on youth. I remember just a few years ago (OK maybe it was 15) I had a lot of fun with a Winchester 290 (most accurate automatic 22 I ever owned) I would put a blank piece of paper up at fifty yards. I would shoot a hole into the middle and then try to fly the rest of them through that hole. Always ended up chewing out a ragged 1/2" group.
I also remember being able to see 22 bullet holes at 100 yards if I focused on the edge of the target. Couldn't see them if i looked directly at them but I could if I focused on an obscure part of the target. Sucks because I didn't know jack about shooting at that time, and had I had a mentor of some sort, there's no telling what I could have done!
As it is, I just started wearing glasses this year. Not much of a prescription, but it get's me back where I need to be.
Hopefully, I'll still be able to shoot when I'm old and crusty.

[357maximum]

Eyesight....I am at that age where my Dad got glasses and I am noticing things I do not want to acknowledge already. I grow more empathetic to that there issue by the day(used to be funny).....hard facts is what they is....it might already be happening (not so funny no more) . I still say it is the sun and old ammo though. :lol: I know this gun shoots tighter with this load.......groan......good thing deer have a 8 inch killzone and I do not ever have to shoot very far up at my friends place.




That Mauser needs some metal finishing but I kinda like it as she looks....loooks used and she is......just remember Boyd's is a bit optimistic on their 90% inletting. :lol: The finish is a mix of tru-oil and BLO...the stock was sanded to a good fine grit and them completely burnished with a glass rod before the finish was put on....it took forever and a day to dry is seemed. It also has hinged bottom metal that I found online made in another place in Spain and then I tapped the plunger for a machine screw...locktited it in and polished the head into a button of sorts....all that work and I never use the hinged floorplate.....go figure. ...aaaarg,

Hey Scott.........I will take two of them Tenn Bughole Buttons please :2gunsfiring_v1:...just in case I lose the other one ya know.

[Dutch4122]

It happens to all of us. Father time is a cruel master. Mike and I were just discussing the eyesight issue this evening. I had better than 20/20 eyesight into my early 30's. When shooting iron sighted rifles at 100 yards I could see the groups with the naked eye from the bench and make sight corrections. Then I started to notice that I needed "more light on the subject" in my mid thirties. By age 40 I was having trouble reading fine print and it seemed that my arms weren't long enough any more. Went to the optometrist at age 41 and he told me that my right, dominant, eye was no longer focusing, and causing extra strain on my left eye to make up the difference. Something that happens to most everybody with age. Got my first set of eyeglasses then. Wore them for 18 months until I was having trouble reading again. Went back to the optometrist and he said I needed bi-focals, and that the left eye was now needing correction as well. He fitted me with bi-focal contacts and everything was great. Now I'm on my 3rd bi-focal contact prescription and last time he said that would be it for the bi-focal contacts. Next time is back to glasses.


Things are starting to change again. Won't be long and it'll be back to glasses full time. This whole deal has made me appreciate aperture sights a great deal. And, nothing will make you appreciate a good scope more than when your eyesight starts to go.

[MBTcustom]

It happens to all of us. Father time is a cruel master. Mike and I were just discussing the eyesight issue this evening. I had better than 20/20 eyesight into my early 30's. When shooting iron sighted rifles at 100 yards I could see the groups with the naked eye from the bench and make sight corrections. Then I started to notice that I needed "more light on the subject" in my mid thirties. By age 40 I was having trouble reading fine print and it seemed that my arms weren't long enough any more. Went to the optometrist at age 41 and he told me that my right, dominant, eye was no longer focusing, and causing extra strain on my left eye to make up the difference. Something that happens to most everybody with age. Got my first set of eyeglasses then. Wore them for 18 months until I was having trouble reading again. Went back to the optometrist and he said I needed bi-focals, and that the left eye was now needing correction as well. He fitted me with bi-focal contacts and everything was great. Now I'm on my 3rd bi-focal contact prescription and last time he said that would be it for the bi-focal contacts. Next time is back to glasses.


Things are starting to change again. Won't be long and it'll be back to glasses full time. This whole deal has made me appreciate aperture sights a great deal. And, nothing will make you appreciate a good scope more than when your eyesight starts to go.


Hey Matt, lots of my family members have done this new lasik laser surgery, and it is working great for them. Some got it done 10 years ago and it seems to be holding perfectly. Something to think about.

[Dale in Louisiana]

A trick a lot of high power service rifle shooter use to help with glare and light is to use an little carbide burner to smoke the sights giving a dead black surface. A little calcium carbide water and the burner miners lamp produces acetylene gas which gives off a very flat black soot and helps stop glares.

I still have a carbide burner in my highpower kit, but most shooters have gone to an aerosol spray that does just as good, at least from teh scores they're shooting.

dale in Louisiana

[357maximum]

Mike


When the day comes I will replace the bolt handle, and drill some holes in her ( I already have a Buhler safety sitting in reserve). Now my long barrelled 98 in 8MM that is set up basically the same way.....the hoodies may be an option........at a later date.

[JohnH]

It happens to all of us. Father time is a cruel master. Mike and I were just discussing the eyesight issue this evening. I had better than 20/20 eyesight into my early 30's. When shooting iron sighted rifles at 100 yards I could see the groups with the naked eye from the bench and make sight corrections. Then I started to notice that I needed "more light on the subject" in my mid thirties. By age 40 I was having trouble reading fine print and it seemed that my arms weren't long enough any more. Went to the optometrist at age 41 and he told me that my right, dominant, eye was no longer focusing, and causing extra strain on my left eye to make up the difference. Something that happens to most everybody with age. Got my first set of eyeglasses then. Wore them for 18 months until I was having trouble reading again. Went back to the optometrist and he said I needed bi-focals, and that the left eye was now needing correction as well. He fitted me with bi-focal contacts and everything was great. Now I'm on my 3rd bi-focal contact prescription and last time he said that would be it for the bi-focal contacts. Next time is back to glasses.


Things are starting to change again. Won't be long and it'll be back to glasses full time. This whole deal has made me appreciate aperture sights a great deal. And, nothing will make you appreciate a good scope more than when your eyesight starts to go.

I started a thread here quite a few years back titled "Aging Eyes and Iron Sights" or something similar... it became a sticky. Funny part is two things, (1) at the time I wrote that I only needed 1.25 reading glasses once in a while. Now I keep 1.75 with me all the time. (2) I keep telling myself that if I'd never worn those silly things in the first place my eye's wouldn't be this bad [smilie=1: As I was walking to a neighbors house yesterday evening, another neighbor (part timer) asked me if I know who the young man on the blue four wheeler picking blackberries was. I could see the four wheeler and the fellow at the side of the road. Had to walk another 100 feet closer before I recognized the boy's machine. So now, not only can I not see to type this without a decently lit room and glasses, past 250 yards I can't even make out plainly what I could see clearly a mere 3 years ago. Thankfully 357 hasn't brought up the issue of memory :groner: I hope Dad is having a good time with this...

[357maximum]

Thankfully 357 hasn't brought up the issue of memory :groner: I hope Dad is having a good time with this...

My Dad is aware of the situation as we shoot together occassionally.....he just happens to be less cruel about the issue than I was 18 years ago, but he still gets his digs in occassionally. Memory....I have never had a real great memory, cannot miss something you never had. :drinks:

[JohnH]

Enjoy every moment you can with him, there will come a day when all you have is your memories. As to hoods, I've used sunshades on scopes, but never thought of a hood for the rear sight. My '93 Spanish sporter has a hood on the front sight, but I can see where a hood for the rear could work wonders. I've not yet asked, is the shooting you are showing offhand?

[357maximum]

JohnH....mmmmmm NO....off a very stable bench and pile of sand filled cloth shot bags....offhand.......I would need a family sized cereal box at 200.....heck might need one at 100. :drinks:

[JohnH]

That makes me feel better. For a moment there I was scared, very scared...

[357maximum]

That makes me feel better. For a moment there I was scared, very scared...

If that rifle had a different trigger in it (I.E NOT STOCK) .... I know one guy that could proably do it offhand on a "good day". If I did manage it offhand (NOT BLOODY LIKELY) while I was alone I would not even bother mentioning it. Mentioning some things/topics simply comes at too high a price in certain venues.

[357maximum]

Might I ask you to post pictures of the boolits and loaded cartridges please? I do think that the larger and more boring targets are to blame. I once shot a Rossi 357 carbine with the sun high but behind me and got a vertical group of about an inch and a half while the horizontal spread was little more than the boolit diameter (at 100 metres). I put the vertical spread down to the way the sun was glinting on the front sight, making it difficult to discern the sight hight.


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/308spaniard007_zps36f922d2.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/357maximum/media/308spaniard007_zps36f922d2.jpg.html)

As you look at that cartridge in the middle you will see some purple marker (could not get the real marks to show up on camera). As I close the bolt them areas contact the throat and the rifling. The rifling ever so gently engraves the nose, the leed part of the band gets a real light witness ring completely around the boolit and the boolit gets pushed back into the case just enough to totally hide that lube groove and seats the case "crimp" lightly against the bottom of that loobgrooves "roof". This all happens as the boolit gets cammed (I did not say cRammed) into the throat. This method of loading I personally call soft seating, may be the wrong term, but thats what I call it. I do know it not only increases pressure it also increases speed compared to merely using the crimpgroove as designed to be used even though you are technically gaining boiler room.

[Larry Gibson]

Couple things you might consider as time goes by and expenditures don't break the bank is a Timney trigger with side safety and convert it to cock on opening. I have both on my own 1928 Oviedo and they are definitely worth while. If you go the scout scope route take a look at the Burris 2x7 Scout scope. I have one on my FR8 Scout rifle and it is an excellent scope.

Larry Gibson

109948109949

[357maximum]

I shot it again tonight same test other than I tried the upside down pyramid at 200. Same basic results even in uuuber overcast and comfortable conditions and it was starting to sprinkle a bit.


I am at the concession point.....this load shot better the last time I shot it...something changed and I think it was me. I am still happy with the 2MOA peeper sight load, but time took away 1/2+ minute.....oh well. Time has the right to steal minutes I guess. :lol:

[swheeler]

Whatt you will Nevvveeerrrr get me to admit to that , pay no attention to the guy that looks like me rolling on the floor in that Utube video that was a body double it was not ME.........

I was talking about my old buddy Mike aka 357Maximum

[357maximum]

I was talking about my old buddy Mike aka 357Maximum


Careful how loud you say some things....some will hold it against ya you know. (no purple)

[swheeler]

Careful how loud you say some things....some will hold it against ya you know. (no purple)

I guess they'll have to get over it!;)

[44man]

Trouble with old eyes is the lens hardens and the muscles can't form it any more. kind of like taking the ring off your variable scope.

[357maximum]

Trouble with old eyes is the lens hardens and the muscles can't form it any more. kind of like taking the ring off your variable scope.

So what you are saying is that they need to invent a Pink Pill for above deck use....kinda like the Purple Pill fixes below deck issues for some ??? :lol:

[JohnH]

Went to the local WMA range yesterday. Range is oriented North/South berms at the north end. Stages are under cover of tin roof. I was shooting on the 50 yard range with a Rossi '92 and a 303. Front post was sharp and well defined all morning. Spent the last 30 rounds through the Rossi bouncing a coffee can lid around on the berm. At home, my range is an old logging trail and is well shaded, but at different times of the day one may get anything from well shaded to partly sunny where one is staged. The mixed light is always more difficult, making glare and "double images" on the front sight problematic. When my shady spot is overtaken by the sun, I move. That however is not a solution in the fall when dinner is on the hoof, one must shoot the light ya got. Still it was interesting to get to see the difference a constant shade condition makes on the sight picture.

[Larry Gibson]

Ever see the goofy looking long billed hats with side flaps off the bill that high power shooters use? You're all discussing the reason for those. The old Army/Marine campaign hats were popular in days of your for the same reason; to shade the rear sight and eyes from varying light conditions.

Larry Gibson

[JohnH]

Ever see the goofy looking long billed hats with side flaps off the bill that high power shooters use? You're all discussing the reason for those. The old Army/Marine campaign hats were popular in days of your for the same reason; to shade the rear sight and eyes from varying light conditions.

Larry Gibson Yes, but IIRC the bill don't reach out to the front sight, and time has proven to me the problem is the light on the front sigh as much or more than light on the rear. Light in either place is problematic. I have also wondered if this is one of the advantages of scopes. Not only does a scope fool the eye into thinking the target and sight is on the same focal plane, the scope changes how we perceive the light we see. That does not mean that light doesn't have negative effects when using a scope, light from oblique angles is always problematic regardless of sight type, witness sunshades. But I'm convinced that in the end the problem is basically two fold, light and aging eyes. We former we can do some things about, there is as yet to be a fountain of youth, regardless of what fans of ****** might say ;) (With blurred and loss of vision being a side effect, my question becomes "How can you tell"???

[44man]

So what you are saying is that they need to invent a Pink Pill for above deck use....kinda like the Purple Pill fixes below deck issues for some ??? :lol:
Yeah, it would be great.
I have floaters in my left eye that make me look for deer when I see movement. Makes for a swivel neck! I have almost none in my right eye. Can't focus either without glasses and even need them for the red dots.
Been taking I cap vitamins for a while and floaters have decreased but has not changed focus.
With all the technology, you would think they could soften the lens.
It really is all it is, muscles cant stretch the lens to shape.
The more you wear glasses the worse focus gets, lazy muscles.
I hate glasses, working on the mower, they filled with sweat so I was blind as a bat very fast.
Cataracts are caused by the sun. Always wear sun glasses and those that wore them all their life will not get cataracts or very little.
Carol has dry macular degeneration and was put on I caps. It has halted and she reads better without glasses.
Floaters are busted blood vessels in your eye and scanning woods for deer will show movement where nothing is.
Need Felix or Ben's Red injected in the lens!

[357maximum]

I normally hunt with a scope sighted tool, but as of right now at least when I do use an iron sighted venison gathering tool the effects are only an inch or less because of the light/eye issue and my target is 6-8 inches........gonna deer hunt with irons until I cannot. Somethings just is what they is I guess and I ain't putting no "lube" in my eye intentionally yet....mineral oil maybe, but no boolit loob.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, but IIRC the bill don't reach out to the front sight, and time has proven to me the problem is the light on the front sigh as much or more than light on the rear. Light in either place is problematic.............??

Yup, and have you ever seen the aperture front sights high power shooters use? That eliminates the bill not reaching the front sight and then "(n)either place is problematic"........unless you're shooting service rifle and then you blacken the sights, watch the conditions, pray to the big range master and takes your chances.......

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Need to wear a cap either way. Used to be a woman that sold large bill caps at IHMSA shoots, baseball cap was good for me.
Friend came to shoot my revolvers and had no cap, never seen him with one. He could not see the sights so I had to hold a hunk of cardboard to shade his eyes. Never forget that day. I hear the gun go off and a yell. Turned to see he had the barrel strike his head and the red dot hit his eye. Blood was all over. I asked what he did, said he holds revolvers "easy." Told me he don't like my guns! :bigsmyl2: A cap might have saved him from being laughed at, at work. Black eye for weeks.