Ballard barreled action

[marlinman93]

Just picked up this neat single shot rifle. It's a barreled action that somehow got separated from it's stocks! Factory Nimschke engraved Ballard, with pistol grip forged frame, loop lever, and double set triggers. The 30" full octagon barrel is chambered in .38-55, and has a windage adjustable globe front sight, and midrange vernier tang sight. Scope blocks have been added to the barrel at some time, so I'll add an old target scope to it also.
Need to build or locate proper schuetzen style buttstock, and forearm, which may be quite a task to find.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/engraved_ballard_1.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/engraved_ballard_3.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/engraved_ballard_2.jpg

[2Tite]

Try Treebone rifle stocks. He has the target patterns for Ballards and they require very little finish work to be fitted and shaped.

[Gunlaker]

Marlinman, does CPA do Ballard stocks? I know they can supply stocks and hooked buttplates for a number of original single shots.

That is an excellent project. One day I'd like to own a nice Ballard.

Chris

[williamwaco]

OH, that is going to make a really nice rifle.

[Mk42gunner]

That rifle deserves some very fancy wood.

Robert

[Gtek]

I went to 400% and shifted around for some time. Some if not most would not care or have a clue, I on the other hand finding it still difficult at this point to type. I am afraid that piece would make me spend stupid time/money to finish. PLEASE ENJOY and I think I remember reading in a section of the "LUCKY DOG" paperwork that states you must take a lot of pictures and share!

[rbertalotto]

You will NEVER find a stock for it. And the 38-55 is a terrible cartridge. There is zero value in these Ballards.....You should simply sell it to me so I can dispose of it properly.........[smilie=s:

I got one sitting on the bench with a brand new Green Mountain barrel sitting next to it. I just received my Manson 38-55 custom reamer. Just need the time to put it all together!

Your's is a real beauty! Good luck with it!

[Iowa Fox]

Holy Smokes!!! What a find.

[nekshot]

geeeez, your lucky!!!

[marlinman93]

Thank you all! Yes, CPA makes stocks, and also fits them for Ballards. I personally don't want to ship this anywhere to have stocks fitted, as the thought of one of the carriers damaging it, or stealing it, makes me nervous. I've had both happen over the years, so this one will either get done by me, or someone local.
An engraved Ballard was on my bucket list, and something I feared would never happen, so when this one came along, and I could work a trade for it, I gladly let a couple other guns go to get it!
I've checked with several sources for 90% inletted gun stocks for it. I've used Dave Crossno in Oklahoma a couple times, and may use him again. CPA and Treebone Carving also make stocks for it, but haven't checked prices for fancy walnut at all three places yet. I'm guessing the 90% inletted sets will run in the $300-$400 range, before I fit them, and then probably a couple hundred or more to checker them. Hate to spend this, but can't really cut corners on a fine old Ballard like this.

[wildwilly]

Perhaps you might inquire at Wyoming Armory. Several of their employees worked for Cody Ballard. They have parts inventory for Ballards.

[moodyholler]

Vall CPA has the no 8 pattern that old rifle deserves. Treebone only carries the no 7 long range. I hope you enjoy that one. Sure broke my heart to send it down the road. Later, moodyholler

[John Boy]

MM - That is one sweet rifle and a rarity to boot with the Nimschke engraving. Have Gail send you the finished butt & forearm. She has worked on enough Ballards to know there is no difference with the fit. And if you are skittish - match this rifle to one of your other Ballards and send CPA that one. How's the bore on the rifle?
Congratulations!

[Don McDowell]

I would make an appointment with Steve Garbe and co at Wyoming Armory and take the rifle to them, and then make the second trip over to pick it up when it's done. Might take some cash layout, but it'll be a rich investment for the future.

[Crown-C]

109780

Vall, That is an outstanding engraved Ballard and it certainly deserves the best wood. I attached a photo (if it works right) of my Ballard with a Stevens-Pope barrel and like yours I wanted some outstanding wood. It is a five hour drive for me to get to Dave Crossnos, but I always make the trip so I don't have to ship. He has some beautiful wood and as you know does great stock work. Driving from Oregon to Oklahoma is a bit to much! He has more Ballard patterns than I can sometimes select from and just narrowing it down to the one I want for a particular Ballard can be a chore. Also to top it off, I want a left-handed cheekpiece.
Whatever you decide, that is a Ballard that should be brought back to its original glory.
Richard

[marlinman93]

John Boy, the bore is excellent!
I bid on the buttstock on Ebay yesterday, and went way higher than I thought the stock was worth, but got outbid. Dave Crossno has always done good work for me, and I wish he was closer so I could see all his patterns for the Ballard. I know Dave is a Ballard guy, so I feel even more comfortable getting stocks from Dave. I just can't decide if I want a factory look Union Hill, or a larger Schoyen, Zischang, etc. schuetzen pattern.
Jumping in the car and making a road trip out of it isn't really an option I'm considering, but haven't ruled it out.
Moodyholler, Thanks again for working with me, so I could own this "bucket list" Ballard!

[marlinman93]

Decided to go with the #8,9,10 pattern with small cheekpiece. The Union Hill style, or Schuetzen Junior. Dave is doing them on a nice piece of 4x Oklahoma walnut, and sounds like they may be done soon. Now I have to decide between the factory "Farrow" style buttplate, or the slightly larger #6 1/2 Schuetzen buttplate.

[woodbutcher]

;) Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.Decisions,decisions.Sweet rifle.Yum.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Mk42gunner]

I don't know enough about Ballards' to even begin to try to give you advice about the buttplate.

I will ask nicely, or even beg, to see pictures of the finished rifle.

Robert

[marlinman93]

Well the brand doesn't have a lot to do with the buttplate choice. It's more a question of the type of shooting I want to do with it. A larger hooked Swiss plate will make offhand shooting more comfortable, but for bench work it would get in the way. So I need to decide how much of each type shooting I'll do, and also decide what looks best. Once I have the stocks and can test fit them; I can then hold both plates up and see which looks best, and feels best.

[Wayne Smith]

You are right, the real question is if you are building a Schutzen rifle or an American rifle.

[marlinman93]

You are right, the real question is if you are building a Schutzen rifle or an American rifle.

I guess I didn't know there was a difference? There were thousands of schuetzen rifles built in the USA in the late 1800's and early 1900's, and almost all of them were on American made guns like Winchesters, Marlins, Remingtons, and Stevens.
This one will get a Swiss buttplate regardless; just have to decide which size.

[oger]

If you find an outlet for buttplates let me know
I have been looking for a Swiss for a while.Thanks

[Chev. William]

Have you checked CPA for castings?

[oger]

The problem is it's a real Ballard #8 stock that is missing the buttplate. I will contact them maybe they have something that can be made to fit. thanks

[marlinman93]

I have 6-7 buttplates, but only one real Ballard small Farrow style. The rest are repops, and various styles. Winchester small swiss, Win large Helm, Stevens small and large swiss, Zischang, and a Ballard #6 schuetzen style.
CPA does not carry any Ballard buttplates, but Wyoming Armory does.

[oger]

Thank you, I will get a hold of them.

[oger]

Not able to contact the Wyoming Armory they have a wonderful website but not of the contact E-mails work. Thanks for trying

[M-Tecs]

Wyoming Armory
356 W. Yellowstone Ave.
Cody, WY 82414

Phone: (307) 527-4570
FAX: (307) 527-7104

Between 9:00 AM and 5:00PM Monday thru Friday, MST -Emails are the best way to contact us as we are typically busy in the shop. An e-mail gives us a record of your contact and we will get back to you as soon as we can.
Steve Garbe - spgarbe@yahoo.com

Keith Kilby - keithkilby@msn.com

[oger]

Used the same info, Phone not answered, e-mails are not deliverable.

[Crown-C]

111342 Val, I bought this one prong buttplate from Crossno at Tulsa show last fall. Haven't decided where to use it yet, like many other projects! But it does give the option for offhand and benchrest. I have never seen an original with one prong, only the ones that were cut off by gunsmiths such as Peterson or Schoyen. I ended up using an original brass schuetzen buttplate on my Steven-Pope barreled Ballard. Guess the decision is what you like and from what I have seen of your rifles from the forums you will make a great choice and it will look right. Richard

[marlinman93]

111342 Val, I bought this one prong buttplate from Crossno at Tulsa show last fall. Haven't decided where to use it yet, like many other projects! But it does give the option for offhand and benchrest. I have never seen an original with one prong, only the ones that were cut off by gunsmiths such as Peterson or Schoyen. I ended up using an original brass schuetzen buttplate on my Steven-Pope barreled Ballard. Guess the decision is what you like and from what I have seen of your rifles from the forums you will make a great choice and it will look right. Richard

Thanks Richard! Just got word from Dave the stock is on the way to me! So I'll be able to do a rough test fit on the gun, and hold up various buttplates to get a look at what fits the style.

[marlinman93]

Got my stocks from Dave Crossno today! They look great!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF4172.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF4172.jpg.html)
wetted down to see how they look:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF4175.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF4175.jpg.html)
Tried a test fit to the barreled action, and this is as far as they'd go.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF4177.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF4177.jpg.html)
About 10-15 minutes with the wood carving tools and some dye, and they slid on. Put some self sticking sandpaper on the muzzle end of the barrel, and lapped the wood until it would slide back against the receiver. Then tapped it to mark the pins, and drilled the holes. Fits good, and about 1/8" large all around, so plenty to work with:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF4178.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF4178.jpg.html)
Not sure if the Swiss buttplate is small enough top to bottom, so it may not work. I'll see if a Winchester style can be reworked to have the correct V shape on the top tang. I'll post more as I get the wood shaped, and figure out a buttplate.

[Gtek]

Nice, very nice! Thanks for pic's

[marlinman93]

Nice, very nice! Thanks for pic's

Thanks! I have located the correct small Farrow style Ballard buttplate, so wont be using the plate pictured. Hope to get the Farrow plate soon, and begin shaping the final contours of the new stocks soon!

[Crown-C]

Very nice piece of wood and should make an outstanding stock. There is still a lot of work to be done, but that is what I enjoy. I usually have Dave fit the action and buttplate as I can take the action to him. When you speak of the Farrow buttplate is that similar to the photo I have attached? I picked this set up a couple years ago and haven't found the right action and barrel for it yet.
111661

[Gtek]

The big question I am asking myself is- I wonder if I would have the patience to finish 100%? Or would it be too much to deal with once everything internal fit and plate set. I am pretty sure I would fold and my excuse would be to confirm feel so that I did not remove to much.

[marlinman93]

Very nice piece of wood and should make an outstanding stock. There is still a lot of work to be done, but that is what I enjoy. I usually have Dave fit the action and buttplate as I can take the action to him. When you speak of the Farrow buttplate is that similar to the photo I have attached? I picked this set up a couple years ago and haven't found the right action and barrel for it yet.
111661

Yes, that is the Farrow style buttplate as used on Union Hill models. Nice find, as I don't see them separated from Ballard rifles often! John Merz had one and it's on it's way to me.

[marlinman93]

The big question I am asking myself is- I wonder if I would have the patience to finish 100%? Or would it be too much to deal with once everything internal fit and plate set. I am pretty sure I would fold and my excuse would be to confirm feel so that I did not remove to much.

The internal fitting on a Ballard is pretty quick when Dave does them. He does such a good job on the internal tang that it's just minutes with a wood gouge to fit it. I've done several externally, and always dread it, as it's a lot of work. I can do it, but it's just not that much fun for me. Unfortunately my budget dictates how I do things, and unless I thought I'd mess it up, I have to do it myself to save money.

[Crown-C]

It does take a lot of patience! I generally enjoy the work though as seeing it finished is worth the time and effort. This stock is another by Dave that I did all the finish work including cutting the cheek shadow line. It turned out nice, at least I think so!
Val, thanks for the info on the farrow buttplate, I thought it was, but wasn't sure. I have been looking for Ballard receiver (either cast or forged), probably a 3F, pistol grip with a #1 or 2 size barrel as the forearm will only fit a small barrel. Haven't found the right set yet.

111717

[Gunlaker]

That's beautiful work Crown-C. Is your buttplate nickle plated?

Chris.

[Crown-C]

Chris,
Sorry to take all day to answer your question. Spent the whole day at the Missouri Valley Gun Collectors show in Kansas City. Great show and not a huge crowd for a change. Didn't get much bought, but still enjoyed the show. My kind of show.

The buttplate is brass. I usually polish it and then spray a thin coat of polyurethane on it. I also do the same on receivers that I have color cased. Richard

[Gunlaker]

Thanks.

Chris.

[steamerjames]

just do not shoot any smokeless in it, Ballards are a very weak design. Lots of them have receiver cracks where the breechblock fits into the receiver at the rear, BP only. I shot my 38-55 for 10 years but never used smokeless in it.

[marlinman93]

It does take a lot of patience! I generally enjoy the work though as seeing it finished is worth the time and effort. This stock is another by Dave that I did all the finish work including cutting the cheek shadow line. It turned out nice, at least I think so!
Val, thanks for the info on the farrow buttplate, I thought it was, but wasn't sure. I have been looking for Ballard receiver (either cast or forged), probably a 3F, pistol grip with a #1 or 2 size barrel as the forearm will only fit a small barrel. Haven't found the right set yet.

111717

That's a beautiful #6 Schuetzen! You did great work on the stocks, and the whole gun from what I see! My biggest issue with fitting stocks has always been fitting them to an action I wanted to keep as is. If I'm doing wood on a total restoration I find it much easier, but working around finished steel, and trying to get a perfect fit, is a challenge for me!

[Gtek]

Two layers of A/C aluminum foil duct tape, razor cutting edges on tangs/edges if needed. The good thick stuff is not cheap but last a long time.

[Crown-C]

Marlinman93,
Thanks for the compliment on the Ballard. I agree fitting a stock to an action that can't be marred is difficult. I had the same problem on the #6 shown earlier. What I did was take another action that needed to polished (luckily had one) and sanded the stock somewhat close, then would switch the stock back and forth until getting it to fit the right action. I would mark the stock each time where it needed to be taken down some more, then put it back on the donor action. Took some time! On new wood I try to leave it just a little bit proud to allow for some shrinkage over time. The tape that Gtek suggests will work if you have to, but being the clumsy idiot I can sometimes be, I would prefer to avoid the possibility of a slip if possible. One thing I do early on I forgot to mention is that before starting to sand I scribe the end of the stock on the action, then when I put it on the donor action I can tell where not to take it down to much. Even though both are Ballard actions of the same type, there can be finer variance on shape. Richard

[marlinman93]

just do not shoot any smokeless in it, Ballards are a very weak design. Lots of them have receiver cracks where the breechblock fits into the receiver at the rear, BP only. I shot my 38-55 for 10 years but never used smokeless in it.

I've got over 20 Ballards, and never shot black powder in any of them. Slow burning light smokeless loads wont hurt a Ballard, even in the cast action, unless someone re-chambered it for a caliber a Ballard shouldn't be chambered in. Never owned a Ballard that had a crack at that hard transition either, but have seen a picture of one once.

[marlinman93]

Two layers of A/C aluminum foil duct tape, razor cutting edges on tangs/edges if needed. The good thick stuff is not cheap but last a long time.

I've always used a couple layers of blue painter's masking tape. Then if I ding the tape I can usually remove the top layer and re-tape without losing the first layer.

[marlinman93]

Here's a pic of the fit, (or lack of fit) and the area needing build up. Plus
whatever I can as I go along. You can see the area I highlighted with black
marker that needs metal added.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4187.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4188.JPG

[Teddo]

Marlinman93 that is one fine rifle and they are getting harder and harder to find. Sometime quite a few years ago I built a Schutzen on a Hi Wall but other than look at it i found little reason to shoot it, there is no place closer than 200 miles to compete with it I think somewhere in my junk I still have the stock and palm rest. Here is a Ballard that I built up out of bunch different parts that I used in BPCS it's also in 38/55.Fun to look at but only the action is original112301.....Teddo

[marlinman93]

Marlinman93 that is one fine rifle and they are getting harder and harder to find. Sometime quite a few years ago I built a Schutzen on a Hi Wall but other than look at it i found little reason to shoot it, there is no place closer than 200 miles to compete with it I think somewhere in my junk I still have the stock and palm rest. Here is a Ballard that I built up out of bunch different parts that I used in BPCS it's also in 38/55.Fun to look at but only the action is original112301.....Teddo

That's a fine looking BPCR Ballard Teddo! Looks much like the special order pistol gripped option on a Ballard Pacific.

[Teddo]

The original rifle was a standard Ballard Pacific but like so many rifles of its age it was left uncleaned rusted and abused beyond repair.....Teddo

[marlinman93]

The original rifle was a standard Ballard Pacific but like so many rifles of its age it was left uncleaned rusted and abused beyond repair.....Teddo

Yes, and Ballards seem to be one of the favorites to customize since the first one hit the market! The only Ballards I see most often in original condition are #2 Hunters. Probably because of the cast frame. I have a very early #4 Perfection in my collection that was so badly abused and changed it was almost unrecognizable for what it once was! Luckily, the owners never changed the buttstock and buttplate. It had been relined badly to .30-30, and an electric engraver done to the barrel that read,".30-30 Blackpowder"
I saved it, and returned it to it's original 34" half octagon barrel configuration in .45-70, but it required a new barrel built, and new wood too.

[Crown-C]

Marlinman93,

OK, it's been several weeks--- what's going on with the engraved Ballard and the stock work? Post some photos on how you built up the buttplate and fitted it.

Richard

[marlinman93]

Marlinman93,

OK, it's been several weeks--- what's going on with the engraved Ballard and the stock work? Post some photos on how you built up the buttplate and fitted it.

Richard

Sorry Richard, but I'm afraid I have no updates. It's nostalgia racing time, and I just got in from our big annual pre '64 Drag races this weekend. Unfortunately I've been thrashing on my '63 Falcon to prepare for weeks, so nothing happened to the Ballard yet. But the good news is my Falcon is a full 1 second faster in the 1/8th mile, and my reaction times at cutting a light were so good I never got beat off the line all weekend! But the real topper was today when the temps rose, and the track got sticky enough for me to see daylight under the front wheels for the first time in my life! Only 3"-4", but a real big deal for me at nearly 64 yrs. old, with a car I built in my backyard from spare parts!
Vall

[Gunlaker]

That's a pretty big improvement, 1 second faster in the eighth. I really like the old Falcons. I used to drag race the quarter mile with my father and brother a couple of decades ago. We had a seven second '62 Corvette and a ten second '67 Chevelle.

A couple of years ago I bought a '66 Chevy II for drag racing. I haven't got it going yet because these schuetzen an BPCR rifles keep distracting me :-)

Good luck with the car and the rifles.

Chris.

[Gtek]

Former Pro Comp here, I understand.

[Crown-C]

Vall,

I understand some things just have to be a priority and getting the Falcon in racing order, then dragging it, what great fun! Our youngest son is now on his third restoration of old Broncos. I think this one is a 77 Bronco and is a keeper, he loves driving on our back roads, in our pastures and across muddy creeks.
Working on the Ballards or other single shots can be best for winter projects.
Richard

[marlinman93]

Vall,

I understand some things just have to be a priority and getting the Falcon in racing order, then dragging it, what great fun! Our youngest son is now on his third restoration of old Broncos. I think this one is a 77 Bronco and is a keeper, he loves driving on our back roads, in our pastures and across muddy creeks.
Working on the Ballards or other single shots can be best for winter projects.
Richard

Winter is gun and car project time! I usually wait until then because it's too cold or rainy to do either then! Still waiting on the welder to get a few minutes to build up the repro buttplate.
OT, but this is the BBC powered Falcon:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Falcon_Sabin.jpg

[marlinman93]

That's a pretty big improvement, 1 second faster in the eighth. I really like the old Falcons. I used to drag race the quarter mile with my father and brother a couple of decades ago. We had a seven second '62 Corvette and a ten second '67 Chevelle.

A couple of years ago I bought a '66 Chevy II for drag racing. I haven't got it going yet because these schuetzen an BPCR rifles keep distracting me :-)

Good luck with the car and the rifles.

Chris.

I've been stuck with a love affair with old guns and old cars since I was a kid. 64 now, and still can't shake either! Both of my cars are old 60's style gassers that are street legal race cars. Built my first gasser in 1968, and just can't shake the feelings I have for them. The other is a little British Austin sedan from WWII era. I put a SBC 355 in it, and it's a little quicker than the Falcon. Runs low 7's in the 1/8th mile.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF32821.JPG

[Teddo]

Love the classics, guns and cars. Here is mine not a drag car but a classic just the same.55 Olds convertible....Teddo

[marlinman93]

Love the classics, guns and cars. Here is mine not a drag car but a classic just the same.55 Olds convertible....Teddo

Nice Teddo! That's a beauty! Seems many gun guys are also car guys!

[marlinman93]

Been awhile since I had an update, but finally got my new stocks built, and finished for the engraved Ballard! Got a semi inletted stock set from Dave Crossno in Ok. and fitted them to the action and barrel. Lot of extra wood to work down, but that's OK.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF4177.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF4177.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF4180.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF4180.jpg.html)
A few laters of blue tape to protect the receiver, and set the height of the wood, and it's beginning to settle into place.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF42561.JPG
A little rough sanding with 80 grit, and then 120 grit. It's ready to be wet sanded with Minn Wax Wipe On Poly.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4261.JPG
After 8-10 coats of poly, and sanding in between. Looks a bit off, but it's getting close.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF42651.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4264.JPG
A little work with 4/0 steel wool, and it's ready to cure. Then the final cut and buff begins.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF42681.JPG
After rubbing the stocks out with rottenstone and paste wax, they're ready to send to the checkerer for checkering.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4289.JPG

[Gunlaker]

That wood looks great!

Chris.

[marlinman93]

That wood looks great!

Chris.

Thanks Chris! I tried something different with the final polish this time. I usually use automotive polish as a lubricant to apply the rottenstone when cutting. I used the wood paste wax as the lubricant this time, and surprised how well it worked!

[Bigslug]

Silly drag racers! Don't you know that cars are just something to transport guns in?:kidding:

I've been waiting eagerly for you to come back to this thread. Ballards weren't even on my radar 2 years ago when my father (the retired single shot addict) stumbled into a #5 Pacific .45-70, that strangely, had a destroyed forend crossbolt and no forend, but intact original thimbles and wiping rod. Also has a wood ball on the lever and a non-pistol grip version of your replacement stock with a Swiss plate on it - interesting combo eh? This thread got us turned onto sources for a replacement forend, so many thanks for that.

We've since acquired a #2 .38 (crazy fun, that one!) and a re-barreled, re-wooded .38-55 that we believe to have started life as either a #4 or a #5. It has the socket in the front of the receiver for the end of the Pacific's wiping rod, but I don't know if that socket was exclusive to the #5 and 5 1/2 - Dutcher's book is thin on photos of that area. I was hoping some of you could shed some light on that.

Looking forward to seeing it all done. Nice find!

[SgtDog0311]

See you brought it out of the basement Vall. Looks better every time I see it.

Bigslug, you are asking the right guy!! I'm sure he'll see it and answer soon.

[marlinman93]

Silly drag racers! Don't you know that cars are just something to transport guns in?:kidding:

I've been waiting eagerly for you to come back to this thread. Ballards weren't even on my radar 2 years ago when my father (the retired single shot addict) stumbled into a #5 Pacific .45-70, that strangely, had a destroyed forend crossbolt and no forend, but intact original thimbles and wiping rod. Also has a wood ball on the lever and a non-pistol grip version of your replacement stock with a Swiss plate on it - interesting combo eh? This thread got us turned onto sources for a replacement forend, so many thanks for that.

We've since acquired a #2 .38 (crazy fun, that one!) and a re-barreled, re-wooded .38-55 that we believe to have started life as either a #4 or a #5. It has the socket in the front of the receiver for the end of the Pacific's wiping rod, but I don't know if that socket was exclusive to the #5 and 5 1/2 - Dutcher's book is thin on photos of that area. I was hoping some of you could shed some light on that.

Looking forward to seeing it all done. Nice find!

The hole in the front of the receiver was found on every Ballard I've ever had apart. Not exclusive to any particular model. Your Pacific sounds like the one I bought years ago. Also missing the forearm wood, and wiping rod, and in .45-70 caliber. I picked up a piece of walnut from my local Woodcrafters, and used my mill to cut an octagon shape trough in the wood. Then fitted it to the barrel, and receiver, and drilled a hole for the forearm escutcheons, and screw. I have a source for the forearm screws if you haven't found one?
A lot of Pacific Ballards got customized, so not unusual that yours is refitted to a shooter's liking. I really like the ones that have been modified back in the say for individuals, and think they're neat! The wood ball on a Pacific #5 or #6 Schuetzen was a era addition found quite often. The ring on those levers lent itself well to that added wood ball. My #6 Schuetzen has the same piece added by Zettler Bros. in NY City back around 1900 era.
Watch out with those Ballards! They're addictive!-Vall

[marlinman93]

See you brought it out of the basement Vall. Looks better every time I see it.

Bigslug, you are asking the right guy!! I'm sure he'll see it and answer soon.

Yeah, it took me over 4 months to get around to it, but it's moving along now! I get anxious when they start to come together, and get past the hard parts!

[marlinman93]

Did a test fit before I take it apart to checker wood, and rust blue the barrel. Still need to finish the buttplate by recessing the screws and polishing it out.
Really need to polish the barrel out and rust blue it also. Looks a bit weathered next to the new stocks.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4290.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4291.JPG

[Bigslug]

I have a source for the forearm screws if you haven't found one?

Thanks, but we've got it covered. We had a fine time first fitting the forend, then lining the rifle up with the drill press so the bit would go cleanly through the hole in the barrel, THEN placing the wood without disturbing any of that. It went off without a hitch, but fingernails were definitely chewed down some.

Any tips for keeping the rod from backing out under recoil?

As for your most recent pic: Oh DAYUM!!

[rbertalotto]

I finally finished my Ballard. Wrote an article about it for "single Shot Exchange" magazine. You can read it here
www.rvbprecision.com
"a Ballad about a Ballard"

yours is beyond beautiful!

[marlinman93]

Thanks, but we've got it covered. We had a fine time first fitting the forend, then lining the rifle up with the drill press so the bit would go cleanly through the hole in the barrel, THEN placing the wood without disturbing any of that. It went off without a hitch, but fingernails were definitely chewed down some.

Any tips for keeping the rod from backing out under recoil?



As for your most recent pic: Oh DAYUM!!

Thanks! As for the wiping rod, I simply set it to the side when shooting mine. Then put it back in place after I'm done shooting. Mine doesn't move much, as I started with 3/8" hickory, and spun it in the drill press while I held sandpaper to it. I got it to just slide in place, so it doesn't fall out easily. For hunting it rarely moves with 1-2 shots. Only at the range where it gets lots of shooting!

I decided to pull the barrel today, and refinish it. Just too gray, and a bit splotchy to leave it with the new wood and finish. When I got the barrel off I attempted to remove the target scope bases, and found the front base had soft solder over the screw heads! Yikes! I used a soldering gun to heat the heads, and dug the screw slots out with a dental pick. I coaxed the screws out, and discovered the base stayed in place! A tap with a drift punch popped the base off, and underneath was more solder on the barrel! I'm unsure why the solder was used, as the threads and screws were good, and the base fit tight when I reassembled it after cleaning the holes?
Put all the bases and screws aside, and used a razor blade to shave the solder off the barrel flat. Then began sanding the barrel flats with a wood block and 240 grit paper. Got it looking good, and another hour's work with 320 grit should have it ready to rust blue.

[marlinman93]

I finally finished my Ballard. Wrote an article about it for "single Shot Exchange" magazine. You can read it here
www.rvbprecision.com (http://www.rvbprecision.com)
"a Ballad about a Ballard"

yours is beyond beautiful!

Yes, I saw the write up, and you did a great job on your Ballard! Looks very nice, and I was envious of the stocks you found for it. I wish I could have found an original set in such good shape!

[Bigslug]

Gotta wonder about the soldered bases. . .38-55 is not exactly a bone cruncher. Are you fixing to re-color case the receiver? I think you're pretty much committed at this point.

[marlinman93]

Gotta wonder about the soldered bases. . .38-55 is not exactly a bone cruncher. Are you fixing to re-color case the receiver? I think you're pretty much committed at this point.

Yeah, just crazy that someone would only solder one base, even if they did think it was to protect against recoil. Once the barrel is blued, and the mounts reinstalled, I have an old Lyman scope with offset bases that will situate the scope slightly to the left so the iron sights or scope can both be used.
No, I'm afraid to re-color a Nimschke engraved Ballard receiver! If anything happened to it, I'd be devastated. Also Marlin engraved guns had lighter case coloring than non engraved guns, so the receiver is not far off from the light colors that are on my engraved 1893. I've never seen a Marlin repeater, or Ballard with brilliant case colors, even when the gun was very nice. If you get a chance to check out the two beautiful engraved Ballards on the dust cover of Dutcher's Ballard book, you'll see what I mean. It will look correct with the receiver colors as they are, and nice barrel bluing.

[marlinman93]

Got the barrel off, and decided to redo the rust bluing on it. Got the repop small Farrow buttplate polished out, and I'm leaving that in the white. It looks more like nickel plate than most nickel today, so best to stop. Just need to get it checkered, and it's good to go. Waiting on reply from the checkerer, so hopefully I'll work up loads while I wait.
Put an old Ranger scope with a nice 4 point mounting system on it for now. Have a Stevens with offset bases being repaired now, and it will go on when it's finished. That way I can use the iron sights or scope, and not remove the scope.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4342.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4341.JPG

[Bigslug]

:shock:Ye gads that's purty! You're gonna love shooting it - in the time you've been furnishing that one, Pops has got his .38-55 running as well. Turns out the re-barreler was nice enough to install a 32" 1-18" twist tube, get the set trigger juuuussssst right, and tap it for Unertl blocks. We haven't scoped it - yet - but it's doing just fine with 300 grain LBT spitzers and the "temporary measure" tang/17A sight combo. I'm not afraid of recoil necessarily, but the .38-55's not really having any doesn't seem to bug me at all.

Yeah. . .I don't understand how people can get hooked on meth and heroin when there's vintage single shots to play with. . .

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is a beautiful rifle, and the sort of restoration job it deserves. It annoys me when we see rarer firearms than a Nimschke Ballard, even, acquiring a high collector value when they earned their rarity by having the reek of disaster about them. Or collectors considering a dilapidated but original finish superior to the sort of work Ballard, Marlin and Nimschke would have been flattered to see done in the century after next.

My own Ballard also came as a barreled action, but is just the plainest type of Ball and Williams rimfire, not pitted but subject to every other sort of deterioration, and unsuitable for doing anything really exciting with. I wonder if factory information on a Marlin Ballard could be available, probably from the Buffalo Bill Center, as to the type of butt originally installed? Some would feel obliged to follow that, but I am not so sure the three gentlemen aforementioned would have worried. It isn't like it was an Austin Seven or something.

You have made that buttplate look very much in keeping. I think it did demand a bit of concavity in the line of the bottom of the butt. A pretty good line of Scheutzen buttplates is available from Track of the Wolf, http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/696/1 . I once modeled a set in wax, buttplate and forend cap with sling loop, for a target Martini, and had them cast in stainless steel. I think a buttplate without at least the upper prong might be better for someone who plans on doing much shooting from a position other than standing.


133990

[marlinman93]

That is a beautiful rifle, and the sort of restoration job it deserves. It annoys me when we see rarer firearms than a Nimschke Ballard, even, acquiring a high collector value when they earned their rarity by having the reek of disaster about them. Or collectors considering a dilapidated but original finish superior to the sort of work Ballard, Marlin and Nimschke would have been flattered to see done in the century after next.

My own Ballard also came as a barreled action, but is just the plainest type of Ball and Williams rimfire, not pitted but subject to every other sort of deterioration, and unsuitable for doing anything really exciting with. I wonder if factory information on a Marlin Ballard could be available, probably from the Buffalo Bill Center, as to the type of butt originally installed? Some would feel obliged to follow that, but I am not so sure the three gentlemen aforementioned would have worried. It isn't like it was an Austin Seven or something.

You have made that buttplate look very much in keeping. I think it did demand a bit of concavity in the line of the bottom of the butt. A pretty good line of Scheutzen buttplates is available from Track of the Wolf, http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/696/1 . I once modeled a set in wax, buttplate and forend cap with sling loop, for a target Martini, and had them cast in stainless steel. I think a buttplate without at least the upper prong might be better for someone who plans on doing much shooting from a position other than standing.


133990

Yes, a lot of the value of these old guns is certainly due to how hard some were used, and how many were used up! I found one locally 8-9 years ago that had been in a family since WWII. The heirs who inherited it weren't interested, but knew it was valuable, and wanted to sell it. The story was that their late father was driving down the street when he saw the Ballard sitting on top of a pile of scrap metal! He pulled over and grabbed it to see what was wrong, when an elderly woman ran out of the house screaming at him to put it back! She said the gun was going to the metal drive to support the War effort, and he couldn't take it!
He told her he would go home and bring back twice it's weight in metal if she would let him save it. She agreed and took the gun in the house. He rushed home and loaded plenty of metal in his car, so there would be no doubt he was giving her enough, and took it back to make the trade. She approved, and gave him the old Ballard, which happened to have "H.M. Pope" stamped on the barrel!!!

Cody, nor Marlin has any records on Ballard rifles made by Marlin, except for about 12-13 that somehow accidentally got recorded into their records. Since Marlin was building these guns under contract to Schoverling and Daley, I believe they felt no reason to record data for them. So unfortunately the records are non existent. Marlin records on their repeating lever actions were poor, and often omit many features, or complete guns also.

[marlinman93]

:shock:Ye gads that's purty! You're gonna love shooting it - in the time you've been furnishing that one, Pops has got his .38-55 running as well. Turns out the re-barreler was nice enough to install a 32" 1-18" twist tube, get the set trigger juuuussssst right, and tap it for Unertl blocks. We haven't scoped it - yet - but it's doing just fine with 300 grain LBT spitzers and the "temporary measure" tang/17A sight combo. I'm not afraid of recoil necessarily, but the .38-55's not really having any doesn't seem to bug me at all.

Yeah. . .I don't understand how people can get hooked on meth and heroin when there's vintage single shots to play with. . .

Sounds like things are going well with your dad's Ballard. They certainly are like drugs, as they're so addicting! I don't understand drug addiction either, but I certainly understand Ballard addiction!

[Gtek]

Marlinman, VERY, VERY NICE! Thanks for keeping up with progress for all to enjoy and you have done a wonderful job and should be very proud.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, a lot of the value of these old guns is certainly due to how hard some were used, and how many were used up! I found one locally 8-9 years ago that had been in a family since WWII. The heirs who inherited it weren't interested, but knew it was valuable, and wanted to sell it. The story was that their late father was driving down the street when he saw the Ballard sitting on top of a pile of scrap metal! He pulled over and grabbed it to see what was wrong, when an elderly woman ran out of the house screaming at him to put it back! She said the gun was going to the metal drive to support the War effort, and he couldn't take it!
He told her he would go home and bring back twice it's weight in metal if she would let him save it. She agreed and took the gun in the house. He rushed home and loaded plenty of metal in his car, so there would be no doubt he was giving her enough, and took it back to make the trade. She approved, and gave him the old Ballard, which happened to have "H.M. Pope" stamped on the barrel!!!

Cody, nor Marlin has any records on Ballard rifles made by Marlin, except for about 12-13 that somehow accidentally got recorded into their records. Since Marlin was building these guns under contract to Schoverling and Daley, I believe they felt no reason to record data for them. So unfortunately the records are non existent. Marlin records on their repeating lever actions were poor, and often omit many features, or complete guns also.

You couldn't make up a story like that. They say some of the concrete on Bannerman's Island in New York harbor is reinforced with trapdoor Springfields. Not long ago there was found, in government possession in the UK, a huge hoard of front railings from houses which were donated or requisitioned to make Spitfires out of. You can still see the lead-lined sockets around some houses and the local town hall, but the cast-iron Spitfire never took the air. The idea was probably to convince people that they were all involved in something serious.

[SgtDog0311]

I wonder about "falling off" production of Ballard's in Marlin Firearm's later years, towards 1891. If JMs ended at about 18,000 and Marlin Firearm production of Ballards ended around 36,000 then you'd say 18,000 were produced in the last ten years. That would pro-rate to 1,800 per year. But production must have been falling off for them to discontinue in 1891, leaving a fellah to believe that the rate of production was not consistent in those last years. What figure you'd throw at an effort to calculate when your particular rifle was produced would be the question. I've got a 32,xxx and a 33,xxx. Being safe and applying 1,800 puts them around 1888 and 1889 I figure but could have been a year or so earlier if numbers were indeed falling off.

[marlinman93]

I wonder about "falling off" production of Ballard's in Marlin Firearm's later years, towards 1891. If JMs ended at about 18,000 and Marlin Firearm production of Ballards ended around 36,000 then you'd say 18,000 were produced in the last ten years. That would pro-rate to 1,800 per year. But production must have been falling off for them to discontinue in 1891, leaving a fellah to believe that the rate of production was not consistent in those last years. What figure you'd throw at an effort to calculate when your particular rifle was produced would be the question. I've got a 32,xxx and a 33,xxx. Being safe and applying 1,800 puts them around 1888 and 1889 I figure but could have been a year or so earlier if numbers were indeed falling off.

I think there were more than that made, as Marlin restarted serial numbers after they incorporated. There are numerous cases of JM Marlin and Marlin Firearms Co. marked Ballards having the same serial numbers. Only MFACo. Ballards above the original high serial number on JM are unique, and not duplicated.
The production definitely slowed down in the last couple years, as sales of repeating lever action Marlins increased. Not sure of those numbers, or actually how many a year might have been built in early years. Could easily be some over 1800 pcs. years in the popular high sales years, and under later.
Dutcher's book puts the high serial number he knows of at 36637 on a #3, and I've seen numerous Ballards in the 36,000 range. From what I've seen the vast majority of high serial numbers are #2 and #3 Ballard models. James Grant's book states that he felt production totals were around 39,000 and Dutcher doesn't take a guess at it. Since early production from 1875 to 1881 was only Ballards and pistols at Marlin, I'm not sure I'd want to take a guess at how many were built for sure? All I would say for certain is it's probably well above 36,367 for total JM and MFACo. production.
I don't think you're far off on your guesstimate of age John. I've got a couple #3 Ballards in the 34,xxx-36,xxx range, and can pinpoint one to it's age easily. My #3 that has an engraved presentation plaque in the stock to Lt. Charles Phillips (later Gen. Charles Phillips) was given to him on his promotion, and transfer to another artillery unit. So looking at his service records, I can tell when he was promoted and it was presented to him by his men. It is in the 32,xxx range, and his promotion was in Dec. of 1887. So any gun in that 32,xxx range will probably also be 1887 mfg.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/3SA2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/3SA2.jpg.html)

[marlinman93]

Marlinman, VERY, VERY NICE! Thanks for keeping up with progress for all to enjoy and you have done a wonderful job and should be very proud.

Thanks! Getting closer for sure! Besides the checkering, I'm in the process of building another fitted case for this gun. I try to buy every old long case I can find cheaply at local gun shows, and stash them away. I have had a neat old alligator skin hard case for years. The interior was redone poorly many years ago in a green felt, but not fitted. I tore all the felt and blocks out, and I'm fitting dividers for this gun, scope, tools, ammo, etc. and relining it in navy blue felt. I'll also copy an old Ballard catalog image to glue inside the lid, and make it look period.
Here's the case as it was, prior to gutting the tacky interior.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/case1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/case1.jpg.html)

[rbertalotto]

I wonder if this longer rifle case would fit our Ballards. I never measured mine. These cases are fantastic for the money. I have three of them. One for a DB Shotgun, one for a double rifle and one for a TakeDown 1894 Winchester. The leather and fit and finish is superb!

http://www.jeffsoutfitters.com/C_LCAS1095_Deluxe_Sharps_French_Fitted_Rifle_Case. aspx?productid=131&categoryid=71

http://www.jeffsoutfitters.com/Images/Photos//SHARPSCASE.jpg

[marlinman93]

I wonder if this longer rifle case would fit our Ballards. I never measured mine. These cases are fantastic for the money. I have three of them. One for a DB Shotgun, one for a double rifle and one for a TakeDown 1894 Winchester. The leather and fit and finish is superb!

http://www.jeffsoutfitters.com/C_LCAS1095_Deluxe_Sharps_French_Fitted_Rifle_Case. aspx?productid=131&categoryid=71

http://www.jeffsoutfitters.com/Images/Photos//SHARPSCASE.jpg

Very nice case, and I like dealing with Jeff's Outfitters. Unfortunately it's too new for my taste, and puts a single shot rifle with a right hand cheekpiece the wrong way. I prefer the barrel to the left, so the cheekpiece is up when the case is open.

Got the case done today. Put it in to check the fit of the gun and tools. I've got an old lift top box of .38-55 ammo, a JM Marlin marked box of factory paper patched bullets, shell indenter, Pope style re-de-primer, Ballard re-de-primer, Marlin reloading tong tool, and a can of DuPont Schuetzen powder. It all fits in, but not sure I'll put everything in the case, as some is redundant.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4348.JPG

[rbertalotto]

beautiful!

[marlinman93]

beautiful!

Thanks Roy! That's a genuine alligator skin case I bought at a local gun show for $5 about 5-6 years ago. I try to grab all the old cases I see if they're solid, and cheap!
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4349.JPG

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well the beast ought to have preferred that to giving his all for a lady's handbag.

There used to be a firearms auction house in Birmingham, UK which committed the awful act of selling old British shotguns and their cases as separate lots. You couldn't count on getting both, or if an absentee bidder, matching them up correctly. Maybe they thought they would get higher prices, or maybe their secure storage room was full of gun racks. But it seemed a terrible way to treat guns and their cases which had been together a century or more.

[marlinman93]

Well the beast ought to have preferred that to giving his all for a lady's handbag.

There used to be a firearms auction house in Birmingham, UK which committed the awful act of selling old British shotguns and their cases as separate lots. You couldn't count on getting both, or if an absentee bidder, matching them up correctly. Maybe they thought they would get higher prices, or maybe their secure storage room was full of gun racks. But it seemed a terrible way to treat guns and their cases which had been together a century or more.

I've heard of things like that, and it really gets me. I can't imgine the greed that goes with splitting up fine guns and their cases! I've got a Gye & Moncrieff British double gun in it's original hard leather case from the late 1870's. I love that the gun and case have survived together in such good condition for nearly 140 years!
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF43212.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF4320.JPG

[AkMike]

With no hesitation I'd get ahold of Doug Mann for this stock work. Check at the ASSRA website also.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've heard of things like that, and it really gets me. I can't imgine the greed that goes with splitting up fine guns and their cases! I've got a Gye & Moncrieff British double gun in it's original hard leather case from the late 1870's. I love that the gun and case have survived together in such good condition for nearly 140 years!



Ah yes!!! Gun and case are both beautiful. We don't hear much about Gye, perhaps because a few years later they fell on their noses with a fixed-barrel double, in which the breechblock pivoted sideways. It surely inspired the more popular French Darne, in which the breechblock lifted up.

Is the tang sight original to the gun? I wonder if there are any signs that it was intended for ball, such as slightly heavier barrels or a finer front sight?

One of these days I am going to make a case for my 24ga Pieper hammer gun. I have the oak, the piano hinge, a near-contemporary Yale lock, the nylon-free billiard table baize... The only trouble is, the quarter-sawn oak is so beautifully grained that I don't know if I will bring myself to cover it with leather.

The picture is my case label, which I must confess is a fake. I edited it from catalogue material anda share certificate for the Anciens Etablissements Pieper, which I bought on eBay.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Double post. Sorry!