Brass selection for precision shooting.

[MBTcustom]

I would value opinions on how to select brass for precision shooting, cast or otherwise.
This is something I know nothing about (ashamed to say).
Until just a few years ago, my usual method for deciding what brass to use was pretty simple: If it needs to be stolen, then it's bad. If it needs to be bought, it's no good. If it's free then it's the best stuff in the world. LOL!

Whenever I needed real precision, I would buy 100 R.P. and keep track of how many times they had been fired which did OK, but when I got my hands on some LC Match, I really started seeing what an edge good brass could give me.
So I made up my mind that buying good brass was worth my time, but it's still a very "throw money at it and hope for the best" sort of approach.

Recently, I saw a thread here that mentioned LC LR brass and LoveLife spoke of how separation by weight gave good results at long range.

My question is, how do you know that your brass is consistent, and how do you separate the wheat from the chaff, and if you use weight, how much is acceptable SD?

What exactly makes good brass good? I would have thought that water weight separation after FL sizing would be a better metric of quality, but I just don't know.

[country gent]

There are several areas to look at on a brass case. Wall thickness should be consistent not just at the neck but through out the case. Wieght should be consistent range depends on accuracy requirements also. Case heads should be square and true to centerline of case. Hardness should be consistent thru the batch also. High end benchrest competitors may have 40 identical cases that will last long enough to wear out the barrel. Long range shooters may have several 100 cases very close in wieght and trued necks primer pockets with square heads again enough to wear out the barrel for practical purposes and enough to get thru a weekends matches. Highpower shooters may have a large batch all the same lot and checked for consistency as loading for a season is common. You can measure cases by neck wall thickness, wieght, and with the proper set up head squareness, then to uniform flash holes primer pockets square and depth, Last is case length. As to wieght I would wieght into batches of .75%-1%., neck wall thickness inside .001, Head squareness is a judgement call. Primer depth within .001 and flash holes uniformed and deburred on the inside. Do 20 cases as close as possible. Post 2 targets, have a friend give you ammo 5 rds at a time and which target to shoot at. Test the ammo and see what improvements it has in your rifle. By doing this you dont know what ammo is being fired when until the end of the test.

[fastfire]

Asked a bench rest shooter that question.
They load and fire all the cases write down the FPS for each case and put them into groups by FPS.
You do like to shoot don't ya?
They do not weigh or volume sort cases, just sort by FPS.

Easy Peasy, no guess work there.

[Scharfschuetze]

Country Gent covered it pretty well. I might add that when you weigh your cases, do so after all your uniforming operations are complete. For me that includes a uniformed primer pocket, flash hole, case length and turned neck. After weighing all of your cases, you'll have a good idea what the average is and then get rid of the high and low on your bell curve of weights to a standard deveation or so. I normally don't suffer more than a 4 to 5 percent loss rate on good brass (usually LC or Lapua) in 7.62 or 30/06.

Square bases are great if your rifle has a bolt face that is square with the bore. If it isn't, your fired cases will reflect how badly your bolt face is off from square. Most match rifles will have their bolt faces squared or trued, but most off the shelf rifles will not. If your bolt face is square, then your cases will self-square or fire form to rifle. As a result, I don't spend any time on it as my best rifles have squared bolt faces and I keep brass segregated for each of those rifles.

When turning your case necks, a case neck that is extra thick on one side will often extend this thickness down through the length of the case. That's probably a case that you want to discard. I normally just outside turn my necks so that about half to 3/4 of the neck shows shaving from the blade. This trues the neck up well and still gives reasonable support to the projectile and gives me on average less than .004" of bullet runout. A case that gives a runout of more than .005" gets the toss. Bench rest rifles may take more effort and are generally more dependent on chamber neck dimensions than NM or hunting rifles.

With all that said, I generally don't worry about all of this unless the rounds are to be used at 500 yards or further. My rapid fire National Match loads use cases as they come. Same for my cast boolit and plinking cases. Some of my best scores at long range have been with issue LC Match and Federal Match ammo. I had no way to check those cases for any of the above and yet they produced very competitive scores in rifle matches or in sniper rifle use.

[gray wolf]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think the question was :
what makes good brass? and kinda hinted at what was the best to buy ?.
Not how to fix the brass he had. Sorry if I am miss interpreting the question.
IMHO if I wanted to purchase the brass $$$ that was the most consistent, it would be Lapua at about a buck a case, with Norma being a very good second choice, but also costly. Norma can/may be a little softer.

A lot has been said about what to look for in a mixed bag or a sorted bag of brass, and most of it seems to be correct. People spend the money for the good brass so they do not have to sort and look as much.
That does not mean they do not take time to prepare the brass if that is indicated.

My question would be: what kind of rifle are we talking about ? and what does long distance mean ?
3 4 5 800 yards ? how does the rifle perform now, is it a 1 MOA rifle
with the best ammo you can find/make ? Many things effect shooting long distance besides a good case.
How much correction are we talking about ? As an example; Do we have a rifle that shoots 1 MOA at 300 yards ( 3" groups ) How much are we trying to tighten it up ? Is the problem flyers ?

Sam
will it hold MOA as the distance increases ? What is not making you happy ?

[fastfire]

Long distance IMO is different for different calibers.
.22 Rimfire 200yds
.223 400+yds
.308 Win 600+
.338 Lapua 1 mile+

[joesig]

Lapua. Rumor has it the size of the flash hole and uniformity, especially in the 6mm BR. (smaller in Lapua)

6mm BR and 308: With no other changes, switched from Remington brass (6mm BR) and Winchester brass (308) to Lapua and group sizes shrank. Most noticeable was the 6mm BR. Granted I didn't do any prep work on any of the brands.

Win brass is now for "every day shooting." The Rem BR brass needs to be sold or kept for a future Whisper project.

[country gent]

In NRA high power rifles 200 +300 yds is short range. 500 and 600 yds is mid range and 800, 900, 1000 yds is long range. I do agree with above post of 200 yds as long range for 22 rimfire. As with any prodution item if you dont measure test it consistency is in question. Certain lots of brass may be better than others. Brass from rebuilt or new forming dies may be better or worse. Wth out measuring it how do you know? Some Shutzen shooters take all the variables out by using only one case and loading it for each shot. Now that would be an interesting test groups shot loading one case for each of 10 shots, 10 shots with sorted uniformed cases, and 10 shots with cases as they come from the package at random. Could be an eye opener.

[gray wolf]

I should have worded it better.
What does long distance mean to the OP ?

[MBTcustom]

I apologize. I should have been more clear.
I know about Norma and Lapua and I know about shooting jacketed bullets at extreme distances.

What I am working on is what will end up being a very fun shooting experience with the 30XCB rifle. This project will cover several different barrels and several different twists and is designed specifically to experiment with high performance cast lead boolits.

Not being quite ready to buy Lapua or Norma brass, I find myself looking to acquire cheaper brass and wanting to pick 100 good cases out of a pile.
For instance, if I were to buy 500 pieces of LC 67 30-06 brass, and I wanted to sort through them to find 100 pieces that were the same and would ensure consistency such that I could absolutely trust that my groups were not being effected by variances in the brass, how would I sort them?

If by weight, what is an acceptable deviation?
If by water weight, what is an acceptable tolerance of measure?
Other methods?

The loads in these brass will be fired at less than 200 yards, but consistency is what I am after. Once I get a good dependable batch of brass put together, I'm going to run them till they split, and at that point I will be considering the higher end brass.
Thanks!

[TXGunNut]

I'm no precision shooter but I've noticed a few things about brass. I always liked R-P brass. It was easy to work and produced good loads. I'd buy a hundred pieces, size, trim, deburr the flash hole, uniform the primer pockets and sort by weight. After a few hours I'd wind up with two good lots of brass and a small pile of rejects. Some were damaged in shipping, others just didn't make the cut. I'd load them 2-3 times for hunting/sight-in, set them aside and buy another bag of 100. They worked so much better than WW or Fed brass I thought that was as good as it got.
One day I was trying to load for a new-to-me cartridge (32 Spl) and all I could find was Hornady brass. This may have been unusual for Hornady, it sure as heck was for me. I sized the brass....but it didn't need sizing or trimming and there was no burr inside the flash hole. Primer pockets needed little uniforming and cases were so close in weight that I had no culls from that entire box of brass. When I got into 35 Whelen I again bought Hornady brass. It wasn't quite as uniform as my first purchase but it was close.
I've heard Lapua and Norma are top of the line rifle brass. I don't know. I do know that good brass can be cost effective when you don't have to do a lot of prep work or discard cull brass. The step up in price from R-P to Hornady was certainly cost-effective. If I ever run out of R-P 30-06 brass I'll be trying Norma or Lapua to see what all the fuss is about. I wish they made brass for more of the cartridges I diddle around with but since they don't I'll be very happy with Hornady.
I don't recall the case weight tolerance I arrived at but I believe it was 1%.

[joesig]

Sorry, I misunderstood and my lazy streak is showing. Would rather remove a variable before I start.

If you have a lot of cases and want to cull before you begin uniforming them, I would weigh first. +/- .1% (.2 gr?) should be more than uniform enough but you can be more of less selective depending on the number acceptable cases that result.

That has to be less messy than water volume.

After that I'd think you'd want to work the neck (turn, trim, anneal) and flash hole.

I'm a fan of the bushing type neck sizer dies. You can just size the next enough to grip the boolit. Those prepared cases should last a long time that way.

[btroj]

Use an appropriate micrometer to measure neck thickness in multiple locations around the neck but all at the same distance from the neck mouth. Sort those with .001 or less variation, those with .001 to .002, and .002 plus. The under .001 are the really good ones, the middle group aren't bad but not great, the over .002 are the ones you prefer to use for less intense needs.

that is how I sorted for Highpower cases. The .001 were the 600 yard cases, the middle ones were for 200/300 and the over .002 weren't used at all.

I was never a case weigher. If I were going to weigh cases it would be, like mentioned in an earlier post, only after all prep work was done. Cases trimmed, primer pockets cleaned, flash holes reamed. Why toss a case for being too heavy when the real problem was that it was a bit longer than the rest?

Neck turning will even up neck thickness issues but those variations are likely down the entire case body too. How do those variations play out over time? Do they cause a slight tendency for the case to want to become banana shaped? The fact we are sizing a case down that far and the neck is now where the shoulder used to be makes this even more critical. I think neck runout does continue into the body and as the brass gets thicker it could possibly become a larger variation. This could mean our .002 variation in the neck winds up .004 in the body just above the shoulder, right where your new neck will be.

Yeah, Lapua and Norma make really good brass. You pay a premium for it too. I would have a really hard time paying that kind of money for brass unless I was in some form of formal, intense competition. Yeah, they last a long time but dammit man, I can buy a nice mould for what they want for 100 cases.

Not gonna say it doesn't matter with cast but I would place extreme brass quality farther down the list of importance. I think alloy, lube, bullet design, and pressure curve will play a bigger role than minor quality differences in brass. Just my opinion, I just think that until you have a really good proven load you won't notice a difference. That might be the time to play with different brass and prep options then see what you get.

[btroj]

Oh, I forgot mention this.

Don't forget to verify that your dies aren't making good cases bad. Play with die setup and see what works best for keeping runout to a minimum. Don't assume a given set of dies is not a problem.

Dies, like brass, are a get what you pay for thing to a certain extent.

You saw what I sent you for modification, let that be a guide on what I like. Bushing dies are awesome, gives great control on neck tension, easy to vary too. I will use a bushing that gives the tension I want then just flair the case mouth to prevent shaving. I want to avoid using an expander at all, everything I do to the neck is just another potential issue causing runout.

Make sure you check a case for runout before and after seating a bullet. I have had sweaters make straight cases into crooked ones. I like .003 or less runout measure on the bullet. I have a Sinclair runout gauge, it has taught me a bunch about my dies.

Here is a great book. It is geared towards Highpower shooting heavy emphasis on gas guns but it is detailed in explanation. He gives good examples of what matters, and why.


http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/imagejpg1_zpsaad5c3fb.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/imagejpg1_zpsaad5c3fb.jpg.html)

That at book was some of the best money I ever spent.

[MBTcustom]

Oh, I forgot mention this.

Don't forget to verify that your dies aren't making good cases bad. Play with die setup and see what works best for keeping runout to a minimum. Don't assume a given set of dies is not a problem.

Dies, like brass, are a get what you pay for thing to a certain extent.

You saw what I sent you for modification, let that be a guide on what I like. Bushing dies are awesome, gives great control on neck tension, easy to vary too. I will use a bushing that gives the tension I want then just flair the case mouth to prevent shaving. I want to avoid using an expander at all, everything I do to the neck is just another potential issue causing runout.

Make sure you check a case for runout before and after seating a bullet. I have had sweaters make straight cases into crooked ones. I like .003 or less runout measure on the bullet. I have a Sinclair runout gauge, it has taught me a bunch about my dies.

Here is a great book. It is geared towards Highpower shooting heavy emphasis on gas guns but it is detailed in explanation. He gives good examples of what matters, and why.


http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/imagejpg1_zpsaad5c3fb.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/imagejpg1_zpsaad5c3fb.jpg.html)

That at book was some of the best money I ever spent.

Thank you for that Brad, that's really great information. I think I'll measure a bunch of them just as you say and see what I get.
The idea of using the neck as an indication of what is down below is very logical.

BTW, I have your dies modified. I'm going to run some brass through them and make sure they fit your rifle but as soon as I am sure, I will be sending them on out so you can start getting your brass made up.
Rifle is still looking superb.

[dragon813gt]

Prep them like you want. Weight sort how you feel is best. Shoot those batches and cull any non called flyers. Pretty simple when take all the case prep steps out of it ;)

I like the idea of sorting by FPS. I'd cull non called flyers w/in batches just like before. This method means more firings, more powder, more primers and more bullets. I'm glad I'm out for minute of deer accuracy w/ all my firearms at the moment.

[tomme boy]

I have always liked Federal brass. Some don't as the primer pockets loosen up fast. I have not had that problem unless I was running max loads with jacketed. I like the idea of thick necks to fill the chamber. This brass helps to make a poor mans tight neck chamber. I also find that the cases are more consistent on weight over others.

I'm not as extreme as others here on prep or knowledge. But I have had several rifles that would shoot into the 0.2"s with minimal prep work. Federal brass, weight sorted, flash hole uniformed, neck sized with a Lee collet die. One other thing I have done is to take superfine steel wool and polish the inside of the neck of the brass.

[MBTcustom]

The problem, (and the monkey in the wrench as it were) is that the XCB is a wildcat cartridge that is formed from 30-06 brass. The brass must be separated ahead of time, then changed into something else before it can be fired. So, if the brass must be fired in order to find out what's good and what isn't, then that's a lot of wasted components and time.
That's the problem.

[Doc Highwall]

Tim, here is a good article in brass prep. Mark the site in your favorites.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/

[dragon813gt]

The problem, (and the monkey in the wrench as it were) is that the XCB is a wildcat cartridge that is formed from 30-06 brass. The brass must be separated ahead of time, then changed into something else before it can be fired. So, if the brass must be fired in order to find out what's good and what isn't, then that's a lot of wasted components and time.
That's the problem.

Form them first and do whatever work needs to be done on them. Then sort and shoot. You can't really separate them before you form them into something else because you don't know how they will come out on the other side.

[MBTcustom]

Tim, here is a good article in brass prep. Mark the site in your favorites.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/


Now that is what I call a well written article! Thank you Doc. You are a wealth of pertinent information.

[TXGunNut]

The problem, (and the monkey in the wrench as it were) is that the XCB is a wildcat cartridge that is formed from 30-06 brass. The brass must be separated ahead of time, then changed into something else before it can be fired. So, if the brass must be fired in order to find out what's good and what isn't, then that's a lot of wasted components and time.
That's the problem.

OTOH you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Start out with good brass to make good brass.

[MBTcustom]

OTOH you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Start out with good brass to make good brass.


That's true, but I wouldn't call LC a sows ear. Rather, I've come to think of it as the best generic brass that can be had. I won't use RP, S&B, or PMC brass. I don't know what exactly is wrong with it, but it just doesn't last as long. It could be my own belief, but I don't feel that it is as accurate as other brands (thus, in my hands, it is not as accurate as other brands.
I trust vintage WW and S&W brass, along with LC Match, Lapua and Norma and Starline (Why oh why does Starline not make NATO calibers?!?!?!?) That right there is some of the best brass I have ever used. Sizes like butter, and just goes and goes and goes. Unfortunately, Starline has no word for 30-06. More's the pity.

[MT Gianni]

I sold a 243 a year or two ago and got out of the 243 business. No more molds, dies, brass or bullets. I got a steal of a deal on an Encore last month in 243. I cleaned up the reloading room and found some cases. I loaded up 35 rounds and found a load that will go 1" with graf and sons surplus 243 bullets [noticeable boogers from a soft lead swedge spill at the nose]. The cases were a mix of necked down LC, PMC, Fed, Win and Rem. Now I will buy one manufacturer and sort as was mentioned above. This gun will never be a bench rest rifle but I appreciate the tips.

[TXGunNut]

That's true, but I wouldn't call LC a sows ear. -Goodsteel

Agreed. I use very little LC brass (5.56 only) so I know very little about it other than it is very consistent. May not be the best but it's very consistent and easy to work with once the crimp is removed. Starline is very consistent as well but they have all they can do to make the brass they currently make. I think RP used to be better than it is today...or maybe I'm more demanding. I'd forgotten about S&W brass but now that you mention it I recall it was quite good. Never did figure out who made it for them.
I bought a case of PMC 45acp in my early days mostly because it was cheap and the brass looked good. Fully a third split on the first firing. Rumor had it that Winchester helped them set up their plant but I guess they got the brass alloy or process wrong.

[btroj]

I'm gonna use some of the 400 or so Hornady new, primed cases I have on hand. I also may try some of the 500 or so new, primed Hornady 270 cases.

The cases will get the full work up after sorting by neck runout. I doubt I will weigh cases. Neck turning will be a chore but I got a Sinclair case holder that fits a cordless drill to make that job less of a hassle.

I will wait for the rifle before making cases, I want to make sure they are a firm fit for headspace on forming so I don't need to worry as much about stretching cases on first firing because I pushed the shoulder too far back.

Tim, a comparison of cases using the same load would be interesting once you get a good grouping load. It need not be a barn burner as long as it groups well. I doubt we will see much difference at 100 or 200 yards. I think of brass as something that gives the last bit of accuracy once the first 90 percent is done.

[MBTcustom]

That's true, but I wouldn't call LC a sows ear. -Goodsteel

Agreed. I use very little LC brass (5.56 only) so I know very little about it other than it is very consistent. May not be the best but it's very consistent and easy to work with once the crimp is removed. Starline is very consistent as well but they have all they can do to make the brass they currently make. I think RP used to be better than it is today...or maybe I'm more demanding. I'd forgotten about S&W brass but now that you mention it I recall it was quite good. Never did figure out who made it for them.
I bought a case of PMC 45acp in my early days mostly because it was cheap and the brass looked good. Fully a third split on the first firing. Rumor had it that Winchester helped them set up their plant but I guess they got the brass alloy or process wrong.


I could be wrong, but I suspect that just as alloy can make or break a really good cast boolit, I think it has a lot to do with the finished quality of the brass we shoot.
I recently had a salesman come and do a demo of a XRF gun that would tell alloy composition. While he was showing me how precisely the gun would measure the lead alloy we use, I had the presence of mind to ask him to measure some brass from several different manufacturers.
The gun had the ideal cartridge brass composition saved, and the guy doing the demo showed how easily you could program the gun to tell you the deviation from ideal. We shot several different pieces of brass, and not surprisingly, LC and Starline were the closest to ideal of any that we measured. The gentleman told me he would be glad to send me a printout of everything we measured, but he never did (probably because I decided that $25,000 was just a touch too much money to call him back about LOL!).
Anyway, I found it interesting.

[Scharfschuetze]

Those XRF guns are pretty amazing. Up until last month I had friend with one at his work place. As you can imagine, all the lead in my garage has been analyzed for Pb, Sn and Sn. As you can imagine, alloying to my favorite mix with all that info is a snap.

[TXGunNut]

Wonder if any of us will live long enough to see something like that on our loading benches. Sounds almost like science fiction but I want one.

[MBTcustom]

Wonder if any of us will live long enough to see something like that on our loading benches. Sounds almost like science fiction but I want one.

Well I was hoping to buy one but it cost $25,000. I was thinking that I could do lead testing for the membership, and at $25 a pop I could have it payed for after 1000 shots. The problem is, I doubt I would get 1000 takers here. Oh well.
I think if there were more of a demand then the price would drop, but unfortunately, it's pretty darn specialized.

[TXGunNut]

A machine like that would take so much of the guesswork out of what we do. The possibilities are mind-boggling. Can't imagine even ammo mfrs justifying one at that price. At $5K I could see a market for it but doubt it will ever get that low. That and a tester to tell me when brass needs annealing, lol.

[btroj]

Ok, ponder this.

Which brass is "better"- one made from the ideal alloy but with lots of runout or less than ideal alloy and prefect symmetry?

Like our bullets, far more to a case than just the alloy.

Not saying good brass shouldn't be made from good brass but does brass composition really tell us that much? Within reason?

[MBTcustom]

Ok, ponder this.

Which brass is "better"- one made from the ideal alloy but with lots of runout or less than ideal alloy and prefect symmetry?

Like our bullets, far more to a case than just the alloy.

Not saying good brass shouldn't be made from good brass but does brass composition really tell us that much? Within reason?

I know what you are saying Bob, but I was merely wondering if in this case the better alloy would allow the case to flow more evenly as it is swaged, thereby rendering more accurate RO at the neck?
Hmmmm, then again, it probably doesn't matter.

[btroj]

I'm not Bob but.....

I wonder it some of the quality of good brass comes down to plain old tighter tolerances, in everything.

Do the better quality brass companies demand a better initial stock for forming? Lower production speeds to get more quality?

I don't know?

[MBTcustom]

I'm not Bob but.....

I wonder it some of the quality of good brass comes down to plain old tighter tolerances, in everything.

Do the better quality brass companies demand a better initial stock for forming? Lower production speeds to get more quality?

I don't know?

Sorry Brad,
Yes, I think that it would have to be just tighter manufacturing tolerances that bleeds over into a demand for more precise materials. Kind of like us with polishing our brass? Shiny brass doesn't shoot one little bit better than dirty brass, but a man who is paying attention to his loads will naturally have clean shiny brass. Just can't help himself. LOL!

BTW, did you see your stock over there in special projects? Ya Like?

[Love Life]

We tested LC LR, LC, Lapua, and Winchester brass to long range out of 3 different "Match" quality guns. The results were interesting.

[TXGunNut]

I think I'd favor well-made brass using slightly less-than-ideal formulation over slightly out-of-spec brass made from the ideal alloy. OTOH some dimensions can be fixed but the alloy is what it is in a given case. Unfortunately the ideal alloy and case dimensions for us may not be ideal for factory loads. I think determining the alloy of the cases that work best for reloading may help us understand why they work.

[Love Life]

I think some time at the bench would benefit you more than worrying about your brass alloy.

[btroj]

Tim, I did see the rifle. Looks very nice. Bet it will shoot equally nice.

LL, I bet those results were interesting.

I don't think long range shooting requires extremely good brass, it just needs brass that is good enough. We aren't talking BR shooting here, those guys are nuts over every detail.

Heck, look at how well Palma shooters did with issue ammo. With issue ammo the ability to have a chamber cut to perfectly match the case isn't possible. It also eliminates all case prep. Yet somehow these guys put up some damn fine scores.

I want good brass, abhor bad brass, but won't pay for exceptional brass. Good enough is just that good enough.

I will use my Hornady brass for the XCB and never look back.

[Love Life]

Your Hornady brass will be fine, Brad. I'll email you the results of the tests.

[btroj]

I think some time at the bench would benefit you more than worrying about your brass alloy.

Exactly. Rather than worry over making a better case, work on making better bullets, better ammo, and a better YOU. More often than not the shooter is the weak link. We make it worse because we are also the bullet maker, ammo maker, and trigger puller.

And range time doesn't mean much if you are putting rounds downrange without purpose

[Love Life]

^^^ this!!

[Scharfschuetze]

Exactly. Rather than worry over making a better case, work on making better bullets, better ammo, and a better YOU. More often than not the shooter is the weak link. We make it worse because we are also the bullet maker, ammo maker, and trigger puller.

True on the face of it, but if you are already shooting in a high class (master or high master) then you have probably mastered the fundamentals as well as atmospheric issues. At this point, you need to reduce all the variables possible to stay in the 10 ring or whatever your particular type of match uses for scoring. That not only includes details and issues with your rifle, but with your ammo as well.

Eliminate the variables and then that odd 9 at 3:00 O'Clock that you called as a high 10 at the 600 yard line will most likely be your fault and not something out of your control. You can then define what your issue was with the shot and not just blame something out of your control.

While not all of us here need MOA ammo at long range, I think that most of us here are perfectionists to some degree, both with our shooting skills as well as our loading skills. Confidence in your ammo will certainly give you confidence and satisfaction in your marksmanship.

[MBTcustom]

I think that most of us here are perfectionists to some degree, both with our shooting skills as well as our loading skills. Confidence in your ammo will certainly give you confidence and satisfaction in your marksmanship.

True that. I like to eliminate what variables I can so that I can focus on what I am trying to accomplish (whatever that might be). If brass is an issue (I certainly managed to convince myself it was at one time) I was just asking peoples opinion on how they make it a non issue. Assuming MOA or better is your goal?

[Love Life]

MOA or better? I just uniform primer pocket, FL size, Trim, add primer, splody powder, and bullet.

[MBTcustom]

MOA or better? I just uniform primer pocket, FL size, Trim, add primer, splody powder, and bullet.

Don't give a darn about weight sorting and all that stuff?

[TXGunNut]

I think some time at the bench would benefit you more than worrying about your brass alloy.

Yep! In my case that includes the shooting bench! I recently had two lots of brass develop hard case necks that cost me a little consistency possibly because all cases had not been fired an equal number of times but some had been fired as many as ten times. I think the alloy of those cases was probably close to ideal, only trimmed them once. Dimensionally they were quite good too, best I can tell. I can't recall any other properly prepped case that has let me down other than an occasional split. Loose nut behind the butt has let me down numerous times.

[Love Life]

Forgot weight sorting. I sort to within 1 gr.


I posted up several 10 shot groups from that rifle from load development. The largest group was just a smidge over 1 moa for a 10 shot group. That was 100 yds though and that is weaksauce.

Out to distance, the groups from 3 different brands of brass were very similar with just weight sorting, FL size, trim, primer pocket uniform. I'll show you all the data later this month in person hopefully. The targets, chrono results, notes, etc.

[TXGunNut]

True that. I like to eliminate what variables I can so that I can focus on what I am trying to accomplish (whatever that might be). If brass is an issue (I certainly managed to convince myself it was at one time) I was just asking peoples opinion on how they make it a non issue. Assuming MOA or better is your goal?

I approach it from a slightly different angle, Tim. (No pun intended) My goal is to reduce variables as much as possible hoping that will give me the best results for the rifle and shooter. Despite dozens of sub-moa 3 and 5-shot groups I know I'm not an MOA shooter and only a few of my rifles (and one T/C barrel) are capable of it, at least in my hands. I'm quite happy with 1.5 MOA using CB's and hunting rifles and content in knowing that a target rifle capable of much less is not something I can make full use of. I use BR techniques not to shoot BR class groups but to get the best possible performance from nearly off-the-shelf rifles.

[btroj]

Ok, the site wouldn't let me in later last night to post this.

When I was shooting HP I wanted ammo that was good enough. If it held X-ring at 600 then it was good enough. I then could be certain that it wasn't my ammo that made me shoot a 9.

What this did is allow me to work on position, sight picture, reading wind, and other things that WERE causing me to shoot 9s.

Agonizing over ammo as a as a method to shoot better only gets a guy so far. At some point you search for a magic load that suddenly makes you better. I saw this a bunch with lower class HP shooters. They always were trying a new powder, bullet, primer, case, or something.

What they never bothered to do was look at the reality of the situation, they were the weak link. They just weren't that good a shooter.m oh, they "practiced" a bunch just like me. What they did in reality was put rounds down range, not practice. They did so with no purpose, no set goal to learn something. Practice with purpose makes you better, not just up throwing rounds down range.

When I got a new upper with the same barrel, same reamers, same smith as my old one I didn't even work up a load. The load for the old one shot well first time out so I went with it. This is because I KNEW the ammo was good.

Yes, confidence on your ammo matter. What matters more is knowing when to stop focusing on making better ammo and learn to become a better shooter. I never heard a top level shooter blame his ammo, that was what the lower classes did. Maybe it was because the top guys knew better.

Agonize over the minutiae of brass quality differences if you must. What I will say is that it will not make you a better shooter. The brass may be slightly more capable of small groups, very slightly, but YOU won't be.

Only one way to become a better shooter- practice with purpose. And that means a bunch of range time with set goals of learning. Paying attention to bench set up, wind, light, and other factors. It means not blaming brass for outlying shots but rather looking for what was different that was missed.

[btroj]

True on the face of it, but if you are already shooting in a high class (master or high master) then you have probably mastered the fundamentals as well as atmospheric issues. At this point, you need to reduce all the variables possible to stay in the 10 ring or whatever your particular type of match uses for scoring. That not only includes details and issues with your rifle, but with your ammo as well.

Eliminate the variables and then that odd 9 at 3:00 O'Clock that you called as a high 10 at the 600 yard line will most likely be your fault and not something out of your control. You can then define what your issue was with the shot and not just blame something out of your control.

While not all of us here need MOA ammo at long range, I think that most of us here are perfectionists to some degree, both with our shooting skills as well as our loading skills. Confidence in your ammo will certainly give you confidence and satisfaction in your marksmanship.

I agree, to a pont.

Key is to get ammo that is good enough then leave it alone. That is what I did, I have one of those neat little badges too.

What IS counterproductive is getting so caught up in the magic bullets of powders, brass, and primers, that we lose the truth. The real truth is that good enough ammo is pretty simple to make, a good shooter is damn tough to make.

I always found it interesting that the Marksman class shooters had too much confidence in themselves and not enough in their ammo. The HM shooters had lots of confidence in both. A lowly Master like me had lots of confidence in my ammo, not enough in myself.

My ammo was up to snug, I wasn't. Guess what I worked on? It wasn't ammo.

[Love Life]

Btroj- I call it chasing unicorns. Load ammo that meets the goal of shooting it (MOA, 1/2 MOA, Xring, etc) and hit the range. Make every shot count everytime. None of this "I be blasting!!" garbage.

[fastfire]

QUOTE(Confidence in your ammo will certainly give you confidence and satisfaction in your marksmanship.)


Can't say it better than that.

[btroj]

Btroj- I call it chasing unicorns. Load ammo that meets the goal of shooting it (MOA, 1/2 MOA, Xring, etc) and hit the range. Make every shot count everytime. None of this "I be blasting!!" garbage.

And that is a how you get confident in your ammo. Chasing unicorns is a sure sgn f lack of confidence, in both yourself and your ammo.

how much load development do the top shooters do? Not much I bet, they know what works.

[Love Life]

Nobody ever shot a wallet group sitting in a chair at the bench wondering I they should take another .0005 off their case neck...

Range time is paramount. Hell, I even get by with a 3 1/2 lb trigger pull.

[btroj]

Exactly.

Heck, a service rifle has to pull 4.5 pounds yet they shoot dang good groups.

Hard to learn to shoot anywhere but behind the gun.

[Love Life]

Troof.

[MBTcustom]

Everything you guys say is absolutely true. Especially from a jacketed competition standpoint. I have certainly subscribed to it myself. Thing is, even though it's a drag, the bench plays a much bigger role in cast boolit accuracy.
I mean with jacketed, I can rub my chin and squint at the data, and come up with a reasonably accurate load pretty easily. I'm not worried about boolit hardness, case neck tension, damage to the boolit from the reloading process, a jacketed bullet going to fowl my bore beyond use in two shots, keeping the bullet in the neck just so, keeping the bullet from the throat just so, matching the bullet to the throat just so.............................
All of the things that get a casual nod by jacketed shooters become much more important when shooting cast.
In fact, the reason I shoot cast is because it demands more focus on precision at the bench. If you are loading cartridges that are not concentric, you're going to see it immediately at the range. If your hardness/alloy is inconsistent, or improperly matched to the application, you are going to see it at the range.
I used to shoot 300Win Mag all the time, and I had my sporter rifle dialed down to about 1" at 200 yards going 3300FPS. It was easy by comparison and I enjoyed banging away with it because I could stick that bullet right where I wanted it on demand. Then I had a Tikka T3 hunter that was so accurate with jacketed it was nutty. It too was a 1/2MOA rifle.
Cast bullets is much more challenging than jacketed, and that's why I like it. To get 1/2MOA at 200 yards is in itself a feat I am a long way from accomplishing, and I have yet to talk to a booliteer who can do that consistently on demand. Like only drop 2-3 shots out of 20.

If all I wanted was to get a 1.5MOA load and spend more time at the range, I would do like all the locals around here and go buy some "bullits" from wallmart, or CTD and spend more time behind the firing line. That would certainly make me a better shooter, but not much better of a reloader.
If all I wanted was to spend a little more time at the bench and save money for more range fees etc etc. I would reload and stack reasonably accurate cartridges for practicing, and I would cast boolits for my handguns that would get the job done (followed this method for years, in fact, I was born into it).
That would make me good at the range, and better at reloading, but not much better of a caster.
Where I'm at now is that I don't care about being able to score points at the range, nor about being able to load an accurate jacketed cartridge (been there, done that, burned the barrel, "yawn")
I am pretty much focused completely on casting better boolits, and making better ammo in hopes that I can get that 1/2 MOA at 200 back again with cast.
That's where the brass comes in. I'm turning necks for a precise fit in the XCB chamber, so I am using military brass in hopes that it will be thicker.
Military brass in 30-06 is usually older than I am. I want to be able to form it into 30XCB and get complete neck cleanup when I turn, and so far, everything I have tried is right on the ragged edge except military brass.
So, I'm trying to separate out some superb brass from a pile that probably consists of 13 different lots.
Anyway, that was my reason for asking. This is a very specialized thing, and I figured only a precision long range shooter who runs on a budget would have experimented like this, and be able to speak with authority on it.
Just musing.

[TXGunNut]

I had it easy shooting PPC, it seems. Or maybe not. I bought the best swaged HBWC's money could buy, loaded a clean version of a classic PPC/BE load into good Winchester brass and my revolvers were almost infallible. No tricks, nothing fancy; used the same open gun for my entire career. It's on it's third barrel, second cylinder but the same old gun. ;-) My stuff worked, I had no excuses if I had a bad match because it always came back to me. At upper levels of some shooting competitions it's not about the gun or the ammo. At lower levels new shooters waste money on fancy equipment and silly ideas when they need to focus on getting good ammo and trigger time.
I have a saying about chasing zebras when you're really looking for a grade horse but I guess you could say I've seen lots of shooters chasing unicorns too. Only problem is some of them shot better than I did. ;-)
But even with the 38 spl brass mattered. WW and Precision brass were the most uniform and easy to load, 1500 pieces would last all season before they began to split. I used new Precision ammo for the leg gun matches and some teams gave me their once-fired brass so I seldom had to buy brass.

[country gent]

I can remeber the high master distinguished shooter that helped me get started in High power years ago. Build a good rifle ( at the time M1As/M14 were the ticket) bed it and if the load of 41.5 grns IMR4895, same batch cases, fedral gold medal primer and 168 grn sierra dosnt shoot fix the rifle. Practice and trigger time is where you learn the other important things reading flags mirage position and dealing with the match itself. Ive seen guys who could shoot good in practice but give them a 3 minute prep time and they fall apart. Ive seen competitors shoot a "bad" shot and the next 3 were bad due to worrying about the 1st one. A firearm load good enough to hold x ring or so is more than adequate to be competitive. Alot spend time sorting wieghting improving components when they should be dryfiring, treading wind mirage, and working on thought processes. Once a shot came up and was in the score book it was gone forgotten about and all concentration went to the next shot. If not I would dryfire a few times to get rid of the bad shot. In high power slowfire you have 22 mins for 2 sighters and 20 rounds. Alot of time to work with. When the target was down I was watching wind and light conditions, Target came up I verified the last shot in the spotting scope. got my mirage condition rolled over (prone) and took the shot. I would do mind exercises as part of practice, you can think thru building the correct position, getting into it holding sight picture trigger break and breaking 22 perfect shots. Dry fire was also a big part. once a week was a live practice or match. Buy good brass spot check it and go. Keep it all as one lot and load it evenly as possible. When I was competeing the amu and military teams didnt use loading room ammo till 5-600 yds. Most used LC match or federal gold medal to 300 with the M14s.

[btroj]

I can remeber the high master distinguished shooter that helped me get started in High power years ago. Build a good rifle ( at the time M1As/M14 were the ticket) bed it and if the load of 41.5 grns IMR4895, same batch cases, fedral gold medal primer and 168 grn sierra dosnt shoot fix the rifle. Practice and trigger time is where you learn the other important things reading flags mirage position and dealing with the match itself. Ive seen guys who could shoot good in practice but give them a 3 minute prep time and they fall apart. Ive seen competitors shoot a "bad" shot and the next 3 were bad due to worrying about the 1st one. A firearm load good enough to hold x ring or so is more than adequate to be competitive. Alot spend time sorting wieghting improving components when they should be dryfiring, treading wind mirage, and working on thought processes. Once a shot came up and was in the score book it was gone forgotten about and all concentration went to the next shot. If not I would dryfire a few times to get rid of the bad shot. In high power slowfire you have 22 mins for 2 sighters and 20 rounds. Alot of time to work with. When the target was down I was watching wind and light conditions, Target came up I verified the last shot in the spotting scope. got my mirage condition rolled over (prone) and took the shot. I would do mind exercises as part of practice, you can think thru building the correct position, getting into it holding sight picture trigger break and breaking 22 perfect shots. Dry fire was also a big part. once a week was a live practice or match. Buy good brass spot check it and go. Keep it all as one lot and load it evenly as possible. When I was competeing the amu and military teams didnt use loading room ammo till 5-600 yds. Most used LC match or federal gold medal to 300 with the M14s.

Now there is a post I can agree with entirely. Well, all except the M1A part, an AR is just so much easier to shoot, gives up nothing at 600 with the right ammo, and doesn't beat itself to death.

Shooting is is far more mental than anything.

[country gent]

Btroj, When I started there were 2 choices of service rifles Garand and M1A. The ars were there but hadnt made a standing yet. You learned Natural Point of aim and building a solid position to controll handle recoil. I was shooting my first ar match rifle and service rifle when the Multiple Schlrocis stopped me from competeing. To really date my self I still have a 1-7 twist hart barrel model 70 pre 64 with Tubbs stock and jewel trigger Here.

[MBTcustom]

MS is a turd.
My wife has it, but it's an honor to know her and help her.

[btroj]

The AR has certainly developed over time. The 80 Sierra made a big difference, it made the 223 competitive at 600.
NPA is the one thing so many people have a hard time understanding yet it is so simple. That, and position overall, are the most critical things to master. Until those are mastered it is Impossible to shoot consistently good scores.

Those who fail to grasp those concepts tend to chase unicorns......

[country gent]

Good Steel, The MS could be worse or worse things to deal with. Im lucky so far in that I have numbness instead of pain. walking and balance are issues though. And in a way the numbness helps with the heavy kickers LOL. Btroj, Another thing a lot of high power shooters never grasp is how long 1 min actually is in the 2 rapid stages. Alot will have the 2 shots reload and 8 shots finished in 30 seconds wasting all that time for breathing and sight alighnment. A solid NPA and good cadence using the whole time alottment ( with in a sec or so) should give cleans reqularly sitting and prone rapids. MAtches are won offhand and lost slow prone.

[btroj]

Yep, offhand is the big key. It was easily my worst stage. I think I only once was over 190. The rapids do give LOTS of time. Make each shot count. It needs to be 10 accurate shots, not 10 spray and pray. The slow prone is one so many just can't get a handle on. I found it easy to shoot 192 to 194 consistently, it was those pesky 9s that ate me alive. Those were all me, never an ammo issue.

Tim, I'm sure you sorta wonder what all this has to do with brass selection. Let me put it this way. No matter how good your brass or ammo is it won't ever put together a good group if YOU aren't up to the task. Shooting a 1 inch group at 100 isn't tough, getting consistent 1/2 groups takes far more effort.

Trying to to shoot better solely thru brass selection isn't a proven method. Learn to shoot well with what you have and once you hit a wall make small changes and see what happens. Don't expect major improvements with any component change, often it is a matter of tents of an inch, not quarters.

[MBTcustom]

I understand Brad, but on a good day when im rested, I can deliver 1/2MOA @ 200.

The thing you must also understand is that trying to load and cast better by throwing components downrange is equally foolhardy.

Each discipline must be considered an entity unto itself, and in this thread, I am focused on one variable. A variable I have never considered much.
Precision as it applies to your equipment does not happen on accident. Its a result of a discerning shooter breaking it down to its parts, then building it back up with due diligence given to each component.
When shooting cast, you don't get to work on your shooting until you have things lined out on your bench.
Unless of course, you are only capable of 2MOA on your best day, even with jacketed, then it's a moot point, but if you are looking to keep your ammo 5 times more capable than you are, at a certain point, you're going to have to stop throwing lead downrange and blaming your shooting, and start blaming your reloading skill/attention to detail.

If you are trying to pay attention to the details of loading, and you are working on a custom wildcat, and you are trying to get a good solution together, and this wildcat requires more brass prep and attention than any rifle you have ever shot before,
you might start a thread looking to educate yourself better on brass.
It's not the only variable by a long shot, but I have gone through my notes, and looked for holes in my process. I've considered everything down to the minutest details (not going crazy or anything, just make sure I understand and give a nod or a shake to any piece of the rifle and ammo) and I have found that I don't know as much about brass selection as I would like to.
I could write you a killer tutorial on brass prep but what makes good brass, or bad brass, and how do you tell the difference without firing, and how big is that difference? I haven't got a clue.
So I asked.

[btroj]

My opinion, good enough is good enough. LC brass will suit you fine. Is Lapua very good brass? Yes it is, but will you ever notice the difference? I doubt it.

yes, every discipline has its own needs. The BR guys like Lapua because they need the extra .001 inch reduction in group size, they demand it. We will never notice that small change.

Problem is knowing when good is good enough. To me that comes when I hit a wall and my groups aren't getting smaller. Once that happens, and only then, will is look at changes to things like brass. I don't intend to ever shoot garbage brass so I view it as a low level issue. Powder, primer, and for us bullet are far more important.

good loading techniques are a must. Most of what is required for jacketed works, making concentric ammo is pretty basic if you have the right tools and know how to use em. Again, most of that isn't a big variable, it is proper technique. Again, small changes but only once I get to a point where I know what the rifle is capable of to that point.

Chasing unicorns isn't always bad, just make sure to chase the big ones first.....

As a wise man here liked to say, it only matters when it does.

[MBTcustom]

My opinion, good enough is good enough. LC brass will suit you fine. Is Lapua very good brass? Yes it is, but will you ever notice the difference? I doubt it.

yes, every discipline has its own needs. The BR guys like Lapua because they need the extra .001 inch reduction in group size, they demand it. We will never notice that small change.

Problem is knowing when good is good enough. To me that comes when I hit a wall and my groups aren't getting smaller. Once that happens, and only then, will is look at changes to things like brass. I don't intend to ever shoot garbage brass so I view it as a low level issue. Powder, primer, and for us bullet are far more important.

good loading techniques are a must. Most of what is required for jacketed works, making concentric ammo is pretty basic if you have the right tools and know how to use em. Again, most of that isn't a big variable, it is proper technique. Again, small changes but only once I get to a point where I know what the rifle is capable of to that point.

Chasing unicorns isn't always bad, just make sure to chase the big ones first.....

As a wise man here liked to say, it only matters when it does.

Very true. We are on the same page.
Of course I knew you felt the same way because you spent the extra money on some high end dies that will insure perfect concentricity.
So either you are a high roller who likes to blow money just to see it fly away (yeah right!) or you also are trying to give due diligence to brass.
Honestly, I'm doing like Gear and using a 308FL die as a neck sizer, then a Sinclair style flaring tool (I made you some tips if you remember) then a cut down RCBS seating die.
My thought was that these tools can easily produce accurate ammo and were relied upon to do so decades before the Forster seating dies were a twinkle in their designer's eye.
IE, we are both doing the same thing just from slightly different angles.


Problem is knowing when good is good enough.
You got that right. The trick to precision is putting it where it can do the most good and then let the rough edge drag. I don't know what brass you are planning on running in these fancy dies, but my thought was that as long as I was using military brass, and I have a bundle of it, why is it out of reason to take a minute and pick out 100 good ones that are consistent before running them into my dies?

[btroj]

I bet you have a tubing mic, right? Measure neck wall thickness variations and see which cases are most uniform. That thickness difference goes down the entire case body. Those with a huge difference can tend to bend due to those differences. Yep, sort out the future banana cases and pitch em. Turning necks only cleans up the neck, the body still will have those variations.

That is my biggest criteria. I don't weigh cases at all. Sort for wall variations, them size such that straight cases remain straight. Check every step to verify that a concentric neck wasn't bent off kilter. Most of all verify loaded rounds on the bullet for runout.

Why spend all that time making a concentric chamber just to load it with crooked ammo?

I think sorting thru those LC cases will serve you well. Just choose wisely.

[MBTcustom]

I bet you have a tubing mic, right? Measure neck wall thickness variations and see which cases are most uniform. That thickness difference goes down the entire case body. Those with a huge difference can tend to bend due to those differences. Yep, sort out the future banana cases and pitch em. Turning necks only cleans up the neck, the body still will have those variations.

That is my biggest criteria. I don't weigh cases at all. Sort for wall variations, them size such that straight cases remain straight. Check every step to verify that a concentric neck wasn't bent off kilter. Most of all verify loaded rounds on the bullet for runout.

Why spend all that time making a concentric chamber just to load it with crooked ammo?

I think sorting thru those LC cases will serve you well. Just choose wisely.

What you say makes a world of sense, and I intend to utilise it in the future.
I just wish we had had this conversation before I processed all that greek brass into 30XCB. LOL!


sort out the future banana cases and pitch em.

banana cases, LOL! I like that!

[dtknowles]

......Trying to to shoot better solely thru brass selection isn't a proven method. Learn to shoot well with what you have and once you hit a wall make small changes and see what happens. Don't expect major improvements with any component change, often it is a matter of tents of an inch, not quarters.

I agree with this, I have proven to myself that a lot of case prep is wasted effort and does not even make tenths of an inch difference. I have Norma, Lapua, and RP small primer brass for my 6mm PPC. I shoot this brass in a used custom sleeved Remington 600 action glue in to a fiberglass stock with a barrel of unknown make. I can get it to shoot under 0.250 inches at 100 yards using Berger Jacketed bullets and I can't tell the difference between any of the brass, no real trend on which brass is better. The Norma brass is 6mm PPC, the Lapua is .220 Russian and the RP brass is 7.62x39. I know that the groups are not smaller because that might be just as good as I can shoot off the bench and this rifle was sold because it was no longer competitive so it probably does not shoot in the 1's. The brass might make a difference of a few hundreds of an inch if I could be consistent enough to make is show. I can hardly think being fussy about which brass to uses matters at all until you are shooting under half a MOA, any quality brass should be fine. Sometimes good brass does last longer but only when compared to very poor brass.

Tim

[Larry Gibson]

Goodsteel

Is your rifle a multi thousand dollar custom made benchrest action/barrel/scope set up?

If it is not then it probably is not capable of discerning the difference, if there really is one, between variations in case wall thickness that may or may not mean .001 +/- in group size.

You are over thinking , over agonizing and getting wrapped around the axle about minutia variables that will probably not effect one way or another the accuracy with your rifle. Those greek cases are perfectly fine since you formed them into 30 XCB cases. You have turned the necks concentric to align the bullet with the bore; that is what is important. Any variation in case weight or concentricity of the case side walls will not show any appreciable decrease in accuracy. Switching to perceived "better" cases probably will not improve accuracy either.

You will be far better off in your quest to pay attention to bullet design, alloy, powder and the powder charge. Those are the things that will greatly affect the accuracy. The minutia you are chasing won't.

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel

Is your rifle a multi thousand dollar custom made benchrest action/barrel/scope set up?

If it is not then it probably is not capable of discerning the difference, if there really is one, between variations in case wall thickness that may or may not mean .001 +/- in group size.

You are over thinking , over agonizing and getting wrapped around the axle about minutia variables that will probably not effect one way or another the accuracy with your rifle. Those greek cases are perfectly fine since you formed them into 30 XCB cases. You have turned the necks concentric to align the bullet with the bore; that is what is important. Any variation in case weight or concentricity of the case side walls will not show any appreciable decrease in accuracy. Switching to perceived "better" cases probably will not improve accuracy either.

You will be far better off in your quest to pay attention to bullet design, alloy, powder and the powder charge. Those are the things that will greatly affect the accuracy. The minutia you are chasing won't.

Larry Gibson

OK I give.
I guess its just something I have always agonized over, and figured I was just giving due diligence.
For the past ten years, I have sorted rifle brass by lots and strived to keep them all with the same number of firings etc etc. I believed it helped.
Well, one thing is for sure, I started this looking for a better understanding of brass. Now, I'm embarrassed to say, I do.
I'm a little dense sometimes.

[country gent]

With you "pile" of LC match brass set down and sort out by wieght and neck wall thickness 100 cases maybe 110 or 125 so some spares are available later on I ve never had a batch of cases a few havent been lost from. Trim to length, deburr flash holes, uniform the primer pockets, and if wanted or need neck turn. You will have 125 cases very close together and should be more than up to the task. Fire form them and enjoy.I have a wildcat here I came up with its a shortened 300 wsm case necked down to 6.5mm has 5% less water capacity than a 6.5X284 case does. Takes around 11 steps to make cases right and accurate. CArtridge looks like a ppc on steroids LOL. I have been there with the case forming rituals and its fun coming up with your own little gem. This thing is a tack driver out to 1000 yds with vld bullets. I formed 500 cases and still have them all. Just to see I loaded one case 15 times back to back and its still going strong. The group that day from the bench at 200 was impressive 15 rds fired from the same case. Ill bet when you start sorting by wieght youll be surprised how fast you have your 100+ cases from that LC match brass.

[dtknowles]

OK I give.
I guess its just something I have always agonized over, and figured I was just giving due diligence.
For the past ten years, I have sorted rifle brass by lots and strived to keep them all with the same number of firings etc etc. I believed it helped.
Well, one thing is for sure, I started this looking for a better understanding of brass. Now, I'm embarrassed to say, I do.
I'm a little dense sometimes.

Tim

Still keep the brass in lots with the same number of firings plus or minus a firing, neck tension is important, not really how much but it needs to be the same unless you are firing with the bullet jammed into the rifling. You can reset the clock if a lot gets out of sync by annealing. Just my opinion based on my experience, I don't have any shooting trophies but I have put quite a few bullets down range but rarely beyond 100 yards. I don't clean primer pockets, I have deburred flash holes but don't think it helps much. I do neck turn but it is not an option since the brass will not chamber unless it is turned. I use a neck size die with a choice of inserts, my experience is that as long as the necks hold the bullets tight enough that I can't move them by hand I get good groups. I have fired groups with the bullets barely held and loaded long so they set back when the bullet push on the Throat/lead/lands and they shot good too. If the gun and bullets are a shooters then it will shoot a variety of ammo well as long as the ammo is well constructed. Bullets can be very important to shooting small groups, quality bullets make a big difference in group size.

Tim

[btroj]

Ok Tim, I want you to mark this on your calendar. This may never happen again in your lifetime. This is far more rare than any potential eclipse or other celestial event.

Agree with Larry. Your rifle, heck even mine, isn't gonna ever know the difference. Chase the big unicorns first.

I will be back soon, I need to go shower. I suddenly feel dirty......

[Larry Gibson]

He just hates it when some of me rubs off on him[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Brad: We all agree with facts, otherwise we are we-todd-it.
Larry: Eww.....
Mike: Its my thread. Bring it.