1950 Long Branch No.4 MK1

[Kevinakaq]

Gentlemen I just returned from the local hardware store and they had a Lee Enfield in great shape that caught my eye. It is a 1950 Longbranch in really great condition. Metal is in near perfect condition (no wear whatsoever on the safety for example) and wood is in very good condition (few scratches but I believe it was Walnut but hard to tell as it needs degreased badly). Looked down the bore and on recollection (and after some research) I think it had six grooves. Can't be for certain though but bore would clean up nice and shiney for certain. Gun still had cosmoline throughout. I did not notice any import marks but will check again. It was missing the magazine. Had original rear peep sight.

He has a price tag of 300 since it is missing magazine but said he would take 250 - so figure 275 otd. Should I be running back there and purchasing? Thoughts? Comments?

Oh and I'm not a stranger to Enfield's as I have a 1944 LongBranch that I bought from Rose's for 59 dollars as a kid and YES I did sporterize it. Still hunt with it today and love it. BUT that was 25 years ago so no apologies for the blasphemy, BUT it would be nice to have a nice one in original condition...

Thanks for any advice,
Kevin

[higgins]

If it's in original military configuration, and the serial numbers on the receiver and bolt match, it's a close call since the magazine is missing. Magazines in the condition to match the rifle run about $40. If he knows the man who traded it in, he might contact him to see if the magazine is still around.

[Kevinakaq]

Yeah I figured about 50 for the magazine. Didn't check any other serial numbers but the bolt and receiver were matching. Bolt head was a "0" size. Was definitely original condition. I personally don't think the rifle had ever been shot, or if it had was very little, after looking over the bolt etc.

[Outpost75]

The quality of metallurgy and heat treatment is better in the Long Branch and Savage No.4s than typical UK production. It is a good buy.

[JeffinNZ]

Look at it from this point of view. They ain't making any more. I'd buy it.

[303Guy]

It's a No4 Lee Enfield. Buy it!

Remember the adage - when in doubt, buy it!

[Bloodman14]

Go back and buy it! Let me look around; I may have a spare mag.

[Uncle Grinch]

Yep... definately a good deal, even with the magazine missing, less than $300 is good!

Go and get it!

[Kevinakaq]

Well gentlemen i went and picked it up this moring for 250 otd. I cant even find a sportsterized one for that price around here. The wood is rougher than i remembered and the bolt has been cycled, just not much. Has been shot very little, just roughly handled where wood is concerned. Will get some pics up in a bit then will start the tear down and cleaning etc. to get rid of all this cosmoline.

Gunnerd if you find that magazine let me know and maybe we can work out a trade etc. many thanks!

[Kevinakaq]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-03%2010.15.30.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-03%2010.15.40.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-03%2010.37.26.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-03%2010.16.26.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-03%2010.16.37.jpg

[Dutchman]

I had one of the 1950 Long Branch. It had beautiful black walnut stock that still had beeswax on it. Barrels are 5 groove.

http://images116.fotki.com/v617/photos/4/28344/7686109/l1-vi.jpg

I've since divested myself of all things .303 British.. except a bunch of ammo I need to sell off..

Dutch

[Bloodman14]

I found the mag; make an offer. Soak the wood in some paint thinner for a few weeks to get out all the cosmoline, and refinish with boiled linseed oil. It will look nice!

[Kevinakaq]

Cosmaline is off the metal and blueing is 98 percent plus so I'm very happy about that. Bore is immaculate. Placed the wood in almost boiling water and got most of the cosmaline out. Steamed wood quite a bit to remove miscellaneous dents and will do more over next few days. Will 'mummy' wrap lumber tomorrow and see how that goes for a couple days. Seeing how I live in Central Florida and it is mid summer I expect good results. Linseed oil after that. It is really cleaning up and will make a fine addition to my military collection.

Happy Fourth to ALL (and seeing as it was rifles just like these in the hands of our allies during two World Wars that allow us to enjoy the holiday I can't image a better weekend project...though it was against the Brits that gave birth to us celebrating the fourth...ok I'm torn).

Kevin

[Multigunner]

Some six groove bores have been reported found on late manufacture Long branch rifles, but five grooves are far more common. The Early Savage rifles had six groove bores, but a Long Branch with a six groove bore is said to have had a barrel made using equipment originally used to make BREN Gun barrels.Quite a bit of experimenting was done on No.4 barrels. Many have two groove barrels , a very few have four grooves, and a few were made with two piece three groove barrels. The three groove barrels shot loose after awhile so these barrels were scrapped.The five groove is the standard Enfield Pattern rifling found on both No.1 and No.4 rifles.If the rifle was hanging in the hardware store for any length of time you might ask them to look around under the counter. Some times they remove magazines from rifles and set them aside and simply forget about them.They used to chain the Lee Metford magazines to the floor plate so troops wouldn't lose track of them or get them mixed up when removed for cleaning. The original Lee Rifle used single row fully detachable magazines and spare loaded magazines were carried in pouches on an ammunition belt, they continued this practice with the 1899 Remington Lee .30-40 rifles.

[Kevinakaq]

Rifle is five grove, not six as i earlier recalled. As for the magazine, it is a very small country hardware and i know the owner...he definitly doesnt have it - mores the pity. I could probably use my other magazine for my '44 Longbranch...only can tell by trying (cash is tight and will sell something to justify this rifle purchase).

Im a research guy (old history major) and will have to get a book on Enfields now and learn 'lots' more . I will say i enjoy my '44 immensely, and though i suffer no rifle deficit, i still pick it up 8 times out of 10 for my deer hunt. Made a 150 yard freestanding kill with it once (great story) and put two deer in the freezer with it last season. Matter of fact it is deer burgers tomorrow from one of those kills (God forbid that i ever use the word harvest...lol).

Been meaning to for a while but ordered the Lee 312-185 mold today (19.99 delivered with amazon prime - how can you go wrong?) and will test out. Already have a .313 lubrasizer die on hand. Previous kills were using 150 gr Hornady Interlock (one of my favorite bullets for southern deer in308 or 312) and then found .312 Hornady SST's that i bought 300 of...jury is out on the SST's....

[gew98]

I found the mag; make an offer. Soak the wood in some paint thinner for a few weeks to get out all the cosmoline, and refinish with boiled linseed oil. It will look nice!

Never soak the furniture in paint thinner or any dang chemical !!!. You might as well take a belt sander to it by leeching it with harsh chemicals that will destroy original sheen/finish !.

[Bloodman14]

He did say that it needed a thorough degreasing; I use mineral spirits all the time and refinish wood furniture. I never had an issue.

[Multigunner]

Looks like it has good figure in the grip area. If the rest of the stock set has this figure it would look really nice when cleaned up.There doesn't seem to be much surface damage, more like shop wear and shipping dings than from use in combat.You can draw out dirty surface oils with trisodium phosphate solution without any damage to the wood.If the stock was originally given a linseed oil finish rather than a laquer finish removing the dirty oil and replacing it with clean oil will not make any radical change in its appearance and will allow the grain to show up better.No profit in preserving dents and dings caused by carefless handling at some importers warehouse, thats a part of the rifle's history best forgotten.Standard care for infantry rifles in those days was to work down any nicks or splinters with steel wool or bronze wool and then wipe the stock down with a linseed oil soaked woolen sock. After many years of regular rub downs a very nice patina could form, a well cared for walnut stock became slick and slightly shiny almost like plastic. It looks like repairs or reinforcements have been done to the handguard just ahead of the receiver ring.You see this sort of repair most often on rifles once used in India.The Indian army used the No.1 styled rifles, but the Indian Navy held a large stock of No.4 rifles. You might want to look for markings that might indicate use by India.If it were used aboard ship that might be why its in such good condition.

[Kevinakaq]

Happy Independence Day to all!!!

Well I'm currently pouring over the proof marks using "EGB Reynolds" work as a reference.


edit: I am having a time identifying this rifle. I am thinking Canadian Service due to the broad arrow in the C that is in the center of the buttstock. I am posting a few pics below in hopes that someone recognizes the stamps.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-04%2010.18.20.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-04%2010.19.58.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-04%2010.21.26.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-04%2010.29.20.jpg

I think this might be a broad arrow (hence Canadian Service theory or maybe it is a C with an A inside of it which is found on almost every part of the rifle - located on passenger side of buttstock, dead center.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-04%2010.30.05.jpg

located front of buttstock, bottom
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-04%2010.30.22.jpg

Using resource linked below as well as internet in general and just not coming up with a match -
http://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/The-Lee-Enfield-Rifle-EGB-Reynolds-1962.pdf

Oh worth noting that I did find an import mark near the muzzle - Alpha Leb Oh

[robertbank]

You have a very nice example and got a good buy on it. In good condition these rifles go for $500+ up here now. The buttstock looks like it was repaired. The buttstocks came in 3 variations S, M &L for Small, Medium and Large. Check yours out. Numrich Arms usually carries replacements and you might want to get a replacement that fits you better. Mine had a Small stock on it and would have been great had I been wearing full kit bit obviously I don't so I got a Large which fits me fine.

SK makes a scope mount for the #4 which is so much better than the ones developed during the war. With a scope the Longbranchs are capable of providing excellent accuracy using cast boolits. Mine likes the 314199 boolit sized .314 at around 1800 fps.

Enjoy the gun with the stamps you mentioned it is Cdn Army issue. The Lonbranch restarted production of the #4 rifle while we were engaged in Korea. FYI in the early to mid 50's you could buy surplus #4 rifles for $9.95 at the local Army & Navy stores in Edmonton. WW! bayonets for 99 cents. Every Boy Scout I knew had at least one bayonet to play with.

Take Care

Bob

[Kevinakaq]

Thanks for the comments Robert. I put up some images of the proof marks you may have missed. As for the buttstock I am 100 percent certain it is original and never been repaired. I have it in my hand right now (buttplate removed and degreased pretty well for starters) and except for handling marks it is in great condition. The rear hand guard though was wrapped and does feature a crack on the inside that cannot be seen on the outside. What is interesting is that the rear hanguard shows evidence of wrapping but the forend does not. Wood is darker walnut on the forend as well. So either the forend was replaced or the handguard at one time, most likely the forend.

[robertbank]

Kevin check the size of the buttstock. If it doesn't fit you right ie to small find yourself a large one. These rifles are not collector pieces and if you intend to shoot yours you might as well have it fit you. You can replace the sight you have with a micrometer sight fairly easy. The one you have slides up and down while the rear sight I am talking about has a knob and is a much better sight. Both were issued. Lots of information out there on the gun. Remember the girls in Toronto wanted their boys to have VG rifles and the Longbranch is a very good service rifle.

Check these out:

http://www.pbase.com/mrclark/long_branch_factory

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=36139

http://heritagemississauga.com/assets/Small%20Arms%20Final%20Report%20-%20by%20Liwen%20Chen.pdf

Take Care

Bob

[higgins]

After seeing the photos, I take back what I posted earlier about it being a close call whether to buy it. You did well.

[Kevinakaq]

Metal cleaned up nicely. Wood is currently in a mummy wrap outside sweating to the Florida sun.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-07-04%2012.24.04.jpg

Looked up the sight and found one on ebay. Figure in the 70-80 range and I admit they are nice sights.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lee-Enfield-No-4-Mark-1-Micrometer-Milled-Rear-Mk-1Target-Sight-Sniper-Scope-/221479507427?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33913515e3

I will not put a scope on this rifle, but an upgrade to the micrometer is not out of the question in the future. I work on guns quite a bit and originally slow rust blued my Longbranch some twenty years plus ago. As for the buttstock it is about right for me as I'm vertically challenged to begin with.

Thanks for the comment Higgins. I deal with rifles quite a bit but just never researched the Enfield rifle since I bought the original one back in 1991 or so. Wanted to know if it was a really good deal or a run of the mill price (after all I paid 59.99 for my last one). Cash is tight these days and I would pass up an everyday deal. I'm happy though as I own multiple military rifles and to find a bore that is immaculate (outside of a sweede) doesn't happen everyday in my discoveries.

[robertbank]

The sight I was thinking of has a much smaller aperture than the one pictured but works the same way.

Take Care

Bob

[Dale in Louisiana]

You live in Florida?

Wrap that stock up in newspaper and stick it in the floorboard of your truck or car and go park it in the sun! The heat will help the oil migrate out of the wood.

dale in Louisiana

[curator]

The sight on Ebay will require you to drill out the pivot holes in the action. It is not an original Lee Enfield sight, but one made from an original, modified to provide windage. Modifying your original CNo.4Mk1* rifle like this may significantly reduce its value. You want either an original "Singer" sight or even better, a Parker Hale 5C peep sight. The Parker Hale will not only appreciate in value along with your rifle but provide for precision shooting. Consider it an investment!

[Kevinakaq]

Kevin check the size of the buttstock. If it doesn't fit you right ie to small find yourself a large one.


Always good to learn something as I did not know they came in different lengths.
Buttstock lengths: Bantam - 11 inches; Short – 11 ½ inches; Regular – 12 inches; Long – 12 ½ inches

The stock on mine is 12.5 inches from the buttsocket to the buttplate, across the comb. When i get it back together I will test it for fit.

[Kevinakaq]

The sight on Ebay will require you to drill out the pivot holes in the action. It is not an original Lee Enfield sight, but one made from an original, modified to provide windage. Modifying your original CNo.4Mk1* rifle like this may significantly reduce its value. You want either an original "Singer" sight or even better, a Parker Hale 5C peep sight. The Parker Hale will not only appreciate in value along with your rifle but provide for precision shooting. Consider it an investment!

Definitly will not be modifying this rifle as this one is my penance for the one i modified all those years back. Will keep my eyes open for a good sight and you never know when a great deal will fall in your lap. Good thing about having many rifles is you can be patient and go fool around with another while waiting for that perfect deal. Have three rifles on table in pieces right now...

[OKSaddletramp]

snip
Looked up the sight and found one on ebay. Figure in the 70-80 range and I admit they are nice sights.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lee-Enfield-No-4-Mark-1-Micrometer-Milled-Rear-Mk-1Target-Sight-Sniper-Scope-/221479507427?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33913515e3

I will not put a scope on this rifle, but an upgrade to the micrometer is not out of the question in the future. I work on guns quite a bit and originally slow rust blued my Longbranch some twenty years plus ago. As for the buttstock it is about right for me as I'm vertically challenged to begin with. snip.


While it doesn't have the large shade on the aperture, Numrich has the original micrometer sight for No. 4's for $49.95. Look under SMLE/No.4 product no. 531460.

Mine looks slightly different from their illustration; the range marks go from 2 to 13 (hundred meters IIRC)

[Bloodman14]

Hey, I also have a long stock (unfinished, never issued, apparently) you can have, along with a shorter one for whoever needs one.

[M-Tecs]

Seconds on the long stock. I am looking for one for my Longbranch.

[Bloodman14]

Ummm, should I be posting these in Swappin' and Sellin'? Just askin'.

[Kevinakaq]

Hey, I also have a long stock (unfinished, never issued, apparently) you can have, along with a shorter one for whoever needs one.

A very generous offer Gunnerd. I am happy with my current buttstock and if M-Tecs can use it then it would be better served with him.

Thank you sir,
Kevin

[robertbank]

The Long ones are harder to find. Due to the webbing the boys often wore shorter buttstocks were used more. Keep the long version for sure.

Take Care

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

The Long ones are harder to find. Due to the webbing the boys often wore shorter buttstocks were used more. Keep the long version for sure.

Take Care

Bob

Bob

Where are the stocks marked as to the length? Was/is there a standard spot on the stock?

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

I have a good Singer rear sight, but I'm holding onto it in case I get another No.4 that needs one.

[robertbank]

Bob

Where are the stocks marked as to the length? Was/is there a standard spot on the stock?

Larry Gibson

Hi Larry

Mine came out of Cdn Army stores via the Cdn Rangers (I did a swap with the local Sargeant (RTR). The "L" on mine is stamped on the top of the comb just in front of the back of butt stock. Back if the trigger guard the buttstock is also stamped in the wood with the Cdn Broad Arrow under the grip along with 8/32 and a circle with 16C stamped inside the circle.

Take Care

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

Bob

The stock on my C No4Mk1 has no marking on it at all indicating length (is that unusual?). It is 12.5" from stock socket to butt plate. That makes it the long one?

Larry Gibson

[robertbank]

I am not surprised. I have had other examples of Longbranch butt stocks where there were no markings. I suspect the markings on mine are from Army Stores app;ied for one reason or anorther. The "L". "M> and "S" would simply make ID ing them easier when replacement stocks were ordered from the field.

The Rangers are the only group with #4's in use. Incidently they all are not Longbranch rifles. Most of those were sold off by the government back in the 50's after Korea.


Take Care

Bob

[Scharfschuetze]

Larry,

I don't think many of the regular length stocks had a marking. Yours sure looked like a regular length stock when we shot it.

My short stocked No 7 is marked just forward of the heel on the comb with an "S" as I recall.

[BruceB]

I have seen Long Branch stocks (still in Canadian Army service at the time) marked:

-B (bantam)

-S (short)

N (normal)

-L (long)

At this late date, I don't recall if we had an "XL" ( for Extra Long) or not, but I SEEM to remember that marking. Don't hold me to it, please.

In those days, armorers would actually change the stock length for individual soldiers. That's a good thing, because the length of pull could be varied as much as an inch. An alteration of that magnitude is enough to make quite a difference in the fit and feel of the rifle.

When the rifles were being issued to soldiers, I never saw any particular pains being taken to match them up with the man's body size.... I suppose it was easier to change the buttstock later than the paperwork during the process of issuing the rifle.

I was almighty pleased to find a new-condition 1943 Long Branch #4 Mk1* here in a Reno gunstore a couple years back. It has a two-groove barrel and the slide-adjustable rear sight, and, if one likes the look of the #4 Rifle as much as I do..... it is BEAUTIFUL.

Times have certainly changed, pricewise. I paid almost $300 to get it, and was quite happy to pay that price.

I'm still looking for #85L7408,issued to me in 1958 at Camp Dundurn, Saskatchewan. Reward offered....

See how the NCOs beat the serial numbers into our heads? Fifty-six years, and I STILL remember that bumber

[Larry Gibson]

Okay.......Thanks guys. I just wanted to know. Doesn't matter as it shoots great and fits me fine. Lots of fun.

Larry Gibson

[robertbank]

Bruce put an ad on canadiangunutz for it you never know.

Take Care

Bob

[Kevinakaq]

Old post but same sentiment. I just acquired a 1943 Maltby two weeks ago and spent the last two weeks with BLO and cleaning all parts. Gentlemen I purchased her from described her as rough shape, but to me she is a beauty and far better than rough, especially with a good bright 2 groove bore and a 1 on the bolt head. Put her back together again this very morning - an enjoyable time. God help me I do love Lee Enfields, but then again as it was the first rifle type purchased with my father so many years ago sentimentality may be getting the best of me.

And I know I have no productive comment to add to the forum/thread but I am just so darn happy to have it in hand I had to share so please forgive my indulgences! I could hunt with her the rest of my life and not feel a bit lacking.

176940

[robertbank]

No reason to apologize. Nice to see an old girl fall into loving hands. They are great guns. I put an SK mount on my Longbranch and she shoots 2" groups at 100 yards using my cast bullets. I couldn't group six inches with irons bit that is more a statement on my eyes that the rifle.

Enjoy her and shoot her. That is what she is made to do.

Take Care

Bob

[Kevinakaq]

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