My 40-65 roller

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Too hot to go out in my workshop so I thought I would share a picture or maybe more, depending on how I feel when I get done with this one. The first time I saw this rifle it was in a desert gun shop. It was a rusty relic of the Mexican revolution. You could just barely see light looking through the barrel and at some time in it's life a cartridge had got stuck in the chamber and the current owner at the time thought he could solve the problem by hitting the breach block thumb [don't know what else to call it] with a hammer or maybe his boot heel. What ever he used he managed to break off the thumb. The rifle was surprisingly free of rust. The gun shop was asking a whapping $67 for the gun. I passed but I did tell my friend about it. He buys the gun and sets about running up some bills involving various gun smiths and stock makers. The result you can see in the pictures. He first bough a barrel from Badger in 45 cal. and had it chambered for 45-90. He apparently didn't like the recoil but I was not aware that he ever fired the gun. It was not uncommon for him to do that. I told him once that he put lots of fine guns in the trade. He then ordered a barrel in 40 cal and chambered it in 40-65. I don't think he shot that one either since it had no rear sight or scope blocks. I especially liked the hammer on this rifle. While a gun smith was working on the rifle my friend saw this hammer in a box of parts and the gunsmith traded him for the old military hammer. Go figure. To conclude this epistle I will just say I bought my friends gun collection about a year after he passed away. I have more pictures but for whatever reason I can't upload them. I have reduced to within KB limits. Anyhoo, You can see it is a great looking roller. A silk purse from a sow's hear so to speak.

[Tatume]

That is indeed a pretty Rolling Block rifle. Someday I'll find the right one for me. Thanks for sharing. Tom

[bigted]

i too like the roller. just a very nice looking transformation. i have an origanal sporting roller that has had the 26 inch octagon barrel run out to 40-65 and man i just love it. the thing shoots better then i do and it is just a treat to pack around.

you have a keeper in that one.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Thanks guys. Ted I love the simplicity of the rolling block but I didn't always feel that way. When I was much younger the rolling blocks were worth very little. I am talking about sporting rifles. Military rifles were worth almost nothing. You could buy a beautiful rolling block sporting rifle for a hundred bucks when a Stevens 44&1/2 might sell for five hundred. I once took an old rolling block buffalo rifle off the rack and asked the owner of the shop, how much? He said it was forty dollars. The rifle was well used and under the barrel it was stamped 44 cal. I suppose it was 44-77. I put it back on the shelf. It was a full octagon barrel and it was heavy. That is just one instance out of many. I was young and stupid and of the opinion that if nobody else wanted these rifles, why should I. I wasn't good at picking stocks either. The smart investor
buys when others are selling.

[GhostHawk]

I would dearly love a roller, my problem is no one seems to make them in 7.62!

I guess I need to change my handle. 2 Mosin Nagant 1891/30 Both look brand new, both slug .312.
One old Yugo SKS in yep, 7.62x39 it too slugs .312, and a friend recently gave me a CZ-52 in, uhuh 7.62x25. Running factory ammo in that for now, but I'm sure that bug will bite me someday.

I'd love a baby roller in 7.62 x 39 or even 7.62x54r.

Like others have posted I passed up many a cool old gun in my misspent youth. Regret not finding the interest in them now.

[Tatume]

Complete actions were widely available not very long ago. As I recall, the going price was $15, and no FFL required. Now I wish I had bought a truckload of them.

[marlinman93]

Very nicely done Roller! I love Rolling Blocks, and single shots in general. Just traded off one of my resotored Rolling Block Sporters for an engraved Ballard.

[Tom Herman]

I would dearly love a roller, my problem is no one seems to make them in 7.62!

I guess I need to change my handle. 2 Mosin Nagant 1891/30 Both look brand new, both slug .312.
One old Yugo SKS in yep, 7.62x39 it too slugs .312, and a friend recently gave me a CZ-52 in, uhuh 7.62x25. Running factory ammo in that for now, but I'm sure that bug will bite me someday.

I'd love a baby roller in 7.62 x 39 or even 7.62x54r.

Like others have posted I passed up many a cool old gun in my misspent youth. Regret not finding the interest in them now.

GhostHawk, I'd be really, really careful about converting a rolling block to 7.62 x whatever.... The older, black powder guns were designed for.... black powder..... and thus are confined to lower pressures. I saw what was left of one that someone converted to a high pressure smokeless round: It was a cigar box full of broken parts. The shooter was injured, but somehow survived when everything came apart. If I were going to do anything in the high pressure range, I'd use a later roller that was designed for smokeless, like one of the 7mm jobbies. And I'd still be cautious...

[bigted]

im with Tom ... the roller is really not even as strong as the old trapdoor was. i still like em and have a couple origanals but i am very carefull how i load them.

if the stronger , higher preasure rounds are wanted ... i myself woulf suggest a falling block of some kind for the added strength and reciever sturdyness.

[marlinman93]

im with Tom ... the roller is really not even as strong as the old trapdoor was. i still like em and have a couple origanals but i am very carefull how i load them.

if the stronger , higher preasure rounds are wanted ... i myself woulf suggest a falling block of some kind for the added strength and reciever sturdyness.

Not sure the Roller isn't as strong as a Trapdoor, as neither is very strong! ;)
I would not rebarrel a Roller in any high pressure cartridge.

[Bullshop]

Oh yea never anything like a 7x57 Mauser that would be crazy, right?

[marlinman93]

Have owned and shot numerous Rollers in 7x57, and some had case separations from the long chambers those Rollers had. The 7x57 ammo they used wasn't the same as newer 7x57. If I fire formed the cases with light loads, and just neck sized afterwards, they lasted forever.

[GhostHawk]

For a roller I could stick with holy black if I need to.

I'm certainly not a harder, faster push the limits kind of guy.

I just tamed my Mosin by dropping back to 20 grains of IMR 4895, and I'm walking the ladder back up toward the 30's looking for accuracy.

Not sure what it is, but something about those old rolling blocks, falling blocks that tickle my fancy.

[paul edward]

Remington undoubtedly made the model 1895 or 1902 Rolling Block in 7.62x54R. Their last build, during the early part of WW1, was in 8mm Lebel. They also built them in .303 British, 6mm Navy Lee and .30/40 Krag. The only 1902s I have ever seen were in 7x57 for the South American trade.

You might be able to rebarrel one of the 7mms to either 7.62x54R or 7.62x39. A carbine in 7.62x39 would be lots of fun and completely in the spirit of the old military Rolling Blocks. You might look at one of the new production Baby Rolling Blocks and have it rebored.

[GhostHawk]

Thank you Paul!

I would never take one of the old Rolling blocks designed for Black powder and convert to modern. A recipe for a bomb that is and foolish besides.

I was speaking of a modern baby block, or one of those #5 actions that was indeed designed for modern smokeless powder.

(You may not like Wiki, but it can be a terrific resource)
Rolling block rifles were chambered in the following calibers.

58 Berdan
.50-70 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-70_Government)
12.7×45mmR Pontificio
12.17×42 mm RF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12.17%C3%9742_mm_RF)
12.17×44mmR
.45-70 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70_Government)
.43 Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.43_Spanish)
.43 Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.43_Egyptian)
10.15×61mmR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.15%C3%9761mmR)
8×58mmR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8%C3%9758mmR)
8×50mmR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8mm_Lebel)
.303 British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British)
7.65×53mm Argentine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65%C3%9753mm_Argentine)
.30-40 Krag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-40_Krag)
7.62×54mmR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9754mmR)
.30 Remington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Remington)
7×57mm Mauser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7%C3%9757mm_Mauser)
6.5mm Daudeteau No. 12
.236 Remington
11 mm Danish

Some of those are quite high powered, like the 7.62x54r just to pick one out of the list.

Yes when dealing with guns, actions, barrels more than 100 years old a certain amount of common sense is required.

But I find the tone a couple of you "old timers" used just a bit extreme.
Done and done

[Bullshop]

I have a #5 smokeless action that when I bought it was configured as a heavy bench gun. It was chambered in of all things a 219 Donadlson Wasp. It is about the most fine tuned roller I have ever used.
I have re barreled it to 38/55 and though I don't do it feel it would safely handle factory 375 Win type loads.
I have seen the modern baby rollers in 22 hornet, 218 bee, and 357 mag so figure they are certainly up to those pressures.
IMO rollers are simple yes but not a weak design. The strength limits are related to the metallurgy, and heat treatment more than the design. I believe there were some very old frames that were iron and so yes very limited as to pressures but the later final runs with heat treated steels are quite stout.
I believe the modern replicas of the roller with robust size receivers of modern steels are very strong. I think it was Ken Waters that used one to test the 450 RCBS cartridge and he came to the conclusion that the modern produced roller from Pedersoli and such was an extremely strong action. I think the article from Ken Waters may have been included in his pet loads collection.

[bigted]

i recon im prolly one of the "ol timers" refered to but i will stick to my guns ... pun intended.

the old bp rifles are NOT strong enough for high preasure loadings. they WILL blow and if in doubt ... look on youtube for some interesting ? "bombs" built and loaded in and on the old blackpowder era rollers or trapdoors.

of the newer manufactured rollers that are intended for smokeless powder ... there is little doubt that they are "strong enough" or "good enough STEEL ' used for their manufacture.

i would caution that if you wind up with a remington rolling block and have no idea of the year of origanal manufacture ... then my recomendation would be to limit chamberings to "black powder cartridges only" and live to tell the storie.

not being foolish or quarelsome ... i just want to continue reading of the success with a build instead of stories of "ol whats his name" that was a bit less carefull then he should have been ... thats all from an ol fart! :drinks:

[paul edward]

Thanks for the list. I was recalling from memory the calibers offered in the #5, or smokeless powder Rolling Block. Totally forgot how popular the 7.65x53 was in South America. The .30 Remington is a surprise, I would have expected the .30/30. Does anyone know for certain?

[Old School Big Bore]

I've been looking for a couple to build for walkin-around short carbines in sub-magnum pistol calibers like .32 S&W, .38 & .44 spl...no joy.

[Bullshop]

Right Ted! Always ere on the side of caution. I heard that from old what's his name.

[marlinman93]

The Wiki list is pretty good, but still incomplete. A lot of the Swede Rollers were chambered in all sorts of calibers not listed by Wiki. I have a full stock Type 33A Husqvarna Rolling Block that's chambered in the Swede 9.3x53R, which is a lot like our .38-55 Ballard.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/husky2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/husky2.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/husky1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/husky1.jpg.html)

[bigted]

marlinman ... that is a down rite sexy looking rifle. would like a photo or two more of her along with a couple cases both empty and loaded along with your load. very nice indeed.

[smokeywolf]

GOPHER SLAYER,
Thanks for those pics. She's a beautiful old girl. 40-65 is one of my favorite cartridges. I've fired a slew of them out of an early 1890s model '86 Winchester.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I am glad all of you enjoyed the pictures of my 40-65 Roller. I took others but for some reason they would not upload. I always reduce my pictures from MB to KB so that wasn't the problem. It has never happened before. I enjoyed the pictures of the Husqvarna that Marlinman posted. I think if I owned that rifle I would sleep with it under my bed, maybe even in the bed.

[marlinman93]

The Remington made Rollers are big, heavy, and robust guns; and I love them for that. The Husqvarna civilian sporting rifles are sleek, elegant, and almost dainty looking next to my full sized Remingtons. Both have characteristics that appeal to me, for different reasons.
The 9.7x53R is so close to the .38-55 that it appears to be a near exact copy. I shoot mine with .377" cast bullets of 255 grs., and use .38-55 cases to form them. I checked the twist a long time ago, and don't rmember what it was, but knew it wouldn't stabilize a heavier bullet well.
The tang on my Husky is not D&T for a tang sight, and I've often contemplated doing so in a std. Rem. 1.90" spacing. The rear barrel sight is a 3 leaf express, which is good for hunting, but not good for serious accuracy.

[drinks]

I have a #4, .32 RF, which I converted to CF and chambered .32-20, with pistol loads it is useful and fun.
Some people are converting to .32 S&W long, very similar pressures and results.
My #4 was built about 1915, so the metal is likely very decent.
I can tell you the block is quite hard and there was no detectable wear or out of round on either of the pivot pins.

[smokeywolf]

109936 Between the Model '95 and the 22 cal. Model '73 is the '86 40-65. This is a pic of the "gun wall" in my dad's shop, circa 1958. The wall extends to the left another 8 feet and fully populated with Winchesters, a Browning, a Remington, a couple of Springfields and a Krag Jorgensen. No rolling blocks I'm afraid.

[jonp]

Oh yea never anything like a 7x57 Mauser that would be crazy, right?

An ex girlfriend had one that was her husbands before he passed on. I don't think it was ever shot.

[marlinman93]

I have a #4, .32 RF, which I converted to CF and chambered .32-20, with pistol loads it is useful and fun.
Some people are converting to .32 S&W long, very similar pressures and results.
My #4 was built about 1915, so the metal is likely very decent.
I can tell you the block is quite hard and there was no detectable wear or out of round on either of the pivot pins.

I have a #4 takedown that some yo-yo decided to make up a three barrel set on. All three barrels are CF, and all in calibers that don't belong on a #4 action. I personally think they should never be chambered in anything but .32 Long or .22 RF. The three barrels in the set I have are .38 Special, .32-20, and .22 WCF. Pretty set, but I've never fired any of the barrels. Has a full length Malcolm style scope, and scope bases on each barrel to swap it to.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/emgrave2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/emgrave2.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/engrem1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/engrem1.jpg.html)

[GOPHER SLAYER]

marlinman 93, those are two very beautiful rifles. The engraved roller was no doubt an expensive gun when it sold new. You must attend some high dollar gun shows. Could you tell us the caliber of the Hepburn? It looks as though it was hardly used.

[marlinman93]

marlinman 93, those are two very beautiful rifles. The engraved roller was no doubt an expensive gun when it sold new. You must attend some high dollar gun shows. Could you tell us the caliber of the Hepburn? It looks as though it was hardly used.

The Hepburn was a ugly, crusty action when I bought it. Nothing else remained of the original gun. I put a 32" full octagon barrel in .45-70 on it. Sent some nice blanks to Dave Crossno, and had him inlet them 90% in his Hepburn silhouette pattern, and fitted a Sharps '74 buttplate to the stocks. The action/barrel were engraved by Dale Woody, and case hardening/rust bluing was done by Al Springer. The scope was an old Navy Arms that I had a friend rebuild with new lenses and then mounted in Lyman mounts. He also did the antiquing on the scope to give it a vintage look. One of these days I'll get around to having it checkered.
I try to do as much work as possible myself, so I can keep costs down; plus I enjoy it. Dale and Al are very good, and very reasonable, so I don't have much money tied up. Much less than what it would cost to buy an untouched original.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/hepr.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/hepr.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/hepl.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/hepl.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/hept.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/hept.jpg.html)

I don't attend a lot of high end shows. Most of my guns have come from our local shows, or private collections. Our Oregon Arms Collectors show is monthly, and only about 90-100 tables, but it's a club, and not a commercial show, so some good stuff comes in each month. I rarely sell, but have yearly tables to display, and hopefully make a purchase now and then.
The #4 Roller came from a friend at that show. I really didn't want it, but he needed some funds, so I helped him out. It's nice to look at, but I've always personally regretted buying it. I hate guns I don't shoot!

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Marlinman93, I agree with you about guns that are too nice to shoot. I have some Colt pistols that are in mint condition and I never shoot them because even one trip to the range might reduce their value by 10%. I must also say you have good taste. To my eye the Hepburn you have is exactly right, engraved but not gaudy. The men who did the work are true craftsman.

[leadman]

marlinman, with the proper handloads you should be able to shoot that gun with no problems. Seems a shame to not shoot it.

I have a Pedersoli Creedmoor in 40-65 and really like it, shoots great. I also have an 1867 Swedish RB in 8 X 58 rimmed Danish. This was originally a large caliber rimfire but the Danish Government had them rebarreled, receiver heat treated, and the hammer and block replaced. The forestock was also cut down. Mine was done in 1891. They were then sold to the civilians for target shooting.
Look up the article by Bob Shell on shooting one of these.
I had a #5 that was original in the 7 X 57 but the receiver was so rusted that it was not safe to shoot or have rebarreled. The stock had "BATJAC" in large letters stamped in it. This was John Wayne's movie company I was told. Was probably fired with black powder blanks and not cleaned.

The problem with the rolling blocks is if they let go the parts tend to end up in the eye of the shooter.

[Jack Ripper]

Here is my 45-70. It is a #5 action that started life as a 7 mm. Was rebarreled with an original remington and sons barrel of a #1 action. Its no collectors piece but I love it.110021

[marlinman93]

[QUOTE=leadman;2846887]marlinman, with the proper handloads you should be able to shoot that gun with no problems. Seems a shame to not shoot it.
QUOTE]

I know I could work up some squib loads that would shoot in it, but I doubt I could work up loads that were both safe, and also very accurate. Not being able to work around the weak action to get really good groups just seems like a waste of time to me. I could use the same time to play with other guns that don't have any small safety parameters to stop me from working up an accurate load.

[Artful]

Here is my 45-70. It is a #5 action that started life as a 7 mm. Was rebarreled with an original remington and sons barrel of a #1 action. Its no collectors piece but I love it.110021
Nice - being a collector grade isn't as much fun as a shooter that's loved.

[Jack Ripper]

The only thing I want to change on it is a better tang sight. But I'm not gonna try and turn it into some long range creedmore thing. Hunting is whats in store for it. Shots under 100 yrds.

[marlinman93]

Nice - being a collector grade isn't as much fun as a shooter that's loved.

It is possible to do both!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/hunt06b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/hunt06b.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/hunt06d.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/hunt06d.jpg.html)



That's a nice mule deer taken with my Ballard Union Hill in .38-55 a few years ago. I try to hunt one of my old collectable rifles each fall, and shoot them a lot in between. This buck was taken last year with my Ballard Pacific in .45-70 caliber. Sorry I didn't remember to get the gun in the picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/hunt071a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/hunt071a.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/Pacific.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/Pacific.jpg.html)