Looking for opinions (brace for impact), .270 REN in an 1885 Low Wall?

[Crank]

Greetings,
Yes, I know that I am opening a can of worms, however there appears to be no published operating pressure for the .270 REN. I recently re-discovered an antique Low Wall action that went into hiding in my work area (witless protection program). Since brass for 28-30 Stevens is scarce and even more expensive, I have wondered about chambering in .270 REN. I realize that a comfortable operating pressure for the Low Wall is in the 28K range, how much of a problem would published REN data cause? I could cheat and re-name the caliber as some puzzling throwback and just keep the loading mild. The reason for this cartridge is the fact that I wound up with dies, brass and loaded ammo, but nothing chambered for it. I think it would be a neat boolit shooter and I have no reason to push the envelope. I already have a diverse selection other calibers, so please understand I am not looking for alternatives, I already have a back-up choice. I am just curious if anyone has documented what that cartridge operates at. As I said, I could call it a 27-25-120 or a .277 Bird Poop to keep things safe, but if I could use published data for the REN, it would save some powder. I will look forward to any input from those that have experience and/or data for this little oddball.
Thanks

Mark

[Tatume]

Hi Mark,

I see no problem using the 270 REN in your Low Wall. The cartridge is a common chambering in the T/C Contender, and Sierra used a Contender to develop loads their manual. I'm sure your vintage Low Wall will handle it just fine. After all, it's a derivative of the 22 Hornet, and the Hornet is often encountered in the Low Wall.

Take care, Tom

[JeffinNZ]

Try this:

http://www.lasc.us/fryxellcasthp-contender.htm

[Crank]

Tom,
Factory specs for the Hornet are a bit on the warm side for an original Low Wall. I have seen them also, but they are more appropriate on the modern examples. I have already bushed the firing pin, so that is no problem. Bear in mind that the Contender is chambered for many cartridges that are north of 45K, so it doesn't guarantee safety in an older and weaker action. My premise is that the breech thrust and the type of charges, should hopefully be mild enough to keep from taxing the old girl. I just wish someone had data for pressure.

Mark

[Crank]

Depending on whose info you look at, there are two specs for the .22 Hornet. LASC lists 25K CUP and SAAMI lists 43K CUP so depending on the reference, one looks okay and the other is not so friendly.

Jeff,
Thanks, I have read that post and it is describing what I want to do with the cartridge.

Mark

[Tatume]

PM sent.

[tg32-20]

Mark,

Accurate Powders is the only place I could find pressures.
For max load they run about 39,000-50,000. They are showing velocities for these loads at about1600-1800.

I have loaded a lot of 270 Ren for the contender down in the 1300-1400 range and it is very accurate and mild to shoot.


Sounds like a great project,

Tom

[shooterbob]

Hornadys fifth edition lists the ren in the pistol section in the back...I can send you a copy of the page if you want.

[Crank]

Outstanding! I had not seen something listing pressures. Thanks for that info, it sounds like the chambering would have to be kept discreet to avoid any problems in the future. .277 Bird Poop it is, if I go ahead with it. If this was a High Wall, I would chamber it and run it at full power, but I don't like taking chances.

Mark

[Crank]

Shooterbob,
Thanks for the offer. I just looked it up and it has some valuable info, but no pressures.

[Dan Cash]

How will a .270 bullet work in a .289 bore?

[Crank]

I don't have any bore. This is a stripped action.

Mark

[bgmkithaca]

I got into the exact situation you are in several years ago with a black powder 1885 low wall action. My search for pressure data was mostly fruitless for lower pressure loads in the .270 REN-long story short I ended up going with the 25-20 Win. because of the availability of data in a suitable pressure range. There is probably data out there for it but I never found it-another thing I thought about was that the next guy that got a hold of it would probably try some full snort T-C loads in it and who knows the results of that. You have a good idea in giving it some off-the-wall name to prevent those situations. Cheers & good luck with it.

[Crank]

bgmkithaca,
Bingo, you know what I am up against. Years ago, I built a Ballard and cut a chamber for .357Max, but marked it as .38XL to keep anyone from killing themselves. The scary part was when I got the gun, it was chambered in .22 Hornet and as far as I was concerned, that was way over my comfort zone. You never know who will aquire what you build and I have a conscience.

Mark

[JHeath]

Fascinating theme, forcing users to take responsibility by stamping a name for which there is no information.

Over on the handguns forum there's a thread about people firing .40 S&W ammo in clearly-marked .45s, firing .308 ammo in clearly-marked .270s, etc.

Crank, you could write a will specifying that you be buried with the Low Wall and any similar projects you've built. That would solve the problem. I would imagine your funeral would look like footage of carrier deck crews pushing aircraft over the side.

If I could uncover a few Low Wall projects in my shop, at the end my kids would just stuff me in the gunsafe and deep-six the lot.

[Crank]

JHeath,
I consider myself honored with your reply, your posts and their wit, give me a reason to laugh and appreciate life. I am just old enough to remember watching that kind of footage on the news before I headed off to school as a kid and now I have that image stuck in my head. Somehow, I think you must be working for the NSA to have such an insight on my world.
:kidding:

[JHeath]

My NSA colleagues told me you were about to find that Low Wall action. We knew it was there. Have you found the Farquaharson yet? Oops I wasn't supposed to tell you that.

[marlinman93]

If we were talking a High wall, I'd feel much better about the caliber. But I'd never chamber a Low Wall in it, or any high pressure cartridge. Even some of the old cartridges are too much for a Low wall. If this gun was down loaded with light charges, or slow burning powder, then it would be fine. My concern would be the next owner who maybe doesn't use as much care, and decides to work up some hot loads.

[Crank]

JHeath,
I turned the reflectors up to full power on my tinfoil hat, however, lugging that car battery is a bit awkward though. I keep getting strange looks at the grocery store, wonder why????:confused: BTW, that is a Farrow not a Farquarson, neener-neener!

Marlinman93,
That is why I would rather mark it so that no one has an excuse for stupidity, they would have to think first. Heck, anyone could grossly overload a 25-20SS.

Mark

[marlinman93]

Marlinman93,
That is why I would rather mark it so that no one has an excuse for stupidity, they would have to think first. Heck, anyone could grossly overload a 25-20SS.

Mark

Yes, any caliber can be given an overloaded charge. I guess I just prefer a standard caliber found in Low Walls, as it's less likely someone will try to push it over. When we start putting wildcat calibers, or modern chamberings in a antique action, it makes the uneducated think the gun is capable of handling what those cartridges are typically found in.
I've seen a lot of scary chamberings, and this is a much less scary, but still wouldn't be my choice. I'd probably go .25-20 WCF, .32-20 WCF, or the aforementioned .25-20SS.

[Crank]

Marlinman93,
That's why I am looking at a name that won't make sense and will not clue someone in to the fact that it is modern chamber design. If that future person has enough brains to do a chamber cast, they are smart enough to know what the action is capable of. It's not like you are going to wander into Wally World and buy a box of .270 REN.

Mark

[JHeath]

Wow. I had to look up the Farrow. A good day, I learned a rifle.

[Mk42gunner]

Marlinman93,
That's why I am looking at a name that won't make sense and will not clue someone in to the fact that it is modern chamber design. If that future person has enough brains to do a chamber cast, they are smart enough to know what the action is capable of. It's not like you are going to wander into Wally World and buy a box of .270 REN.

Mark

Forty years ago you could say the same thing about the .35 Whelen. I have seen several boxes of .35 Whelen since Remington legitimized the round, (admittedly not since the current panic). I really don't see anyone bringing the .270 REN out as a factory load; but I have been wrong before, and as you say better safe than sorry.

What about a 27 caliber on the .32 H&R case?

Robert

[JHeath]

It's not going to be a .270 Ren. It's going to be a .277 Bird Poop. If somebody wants to standardize .277 Bird Poop and sell ammo at WallyWorld, the spec pressure for .277 Bird Poop happens to be safe for a Low Wall, so no problem.

I would suggest calling it a .277 Wren Poop, but that's inviting trouble with illiterates.

But maybe Mk42gunner has a point, and it should be called the .269 Bird Poop. That'll discourage people from trying .270 Ren cartridges in it.

[shooterbob]

I did find this after 2 hours of searching...link is ok to post I hope
http://www.sportlovesz.hu/reload/accurate.pdf
It shows pressures in a Merrill single shot. Page 68 or so.

[Crank]

MK42,
I clearly said I wouldn't mark it as .270 REN, just in case it becomes a factory loaded cartridge in 2082. You missed the whole point, I stated I have dies, brass and ammo. My alternate choice for a caliber is also something I have all of the goodies for, but I wanted to discuss the REN.

shooterbob,
Thank you, I never ran across that in my searches. That just confirms that published data is out of the safe limits for the action and any loads will have to be a bit more docile.

JHeath,
This is what I was afraid of, we would describe this kind of discussion in the Navy as "Nuking it" when you try to read between the lines. Black and white answers are so much easier.

Mark

[JHeath]

MK42,
, we would describe this kind of discussion in the Navy as "Nuking it"

Mark

Like this? http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2023975058_apxatomicman.html

You start an innocent conversation, then it's 40 years before you can clean out the McCluskey Room. "Dude, I so got McCluskied."

".277 Bird Poop -- how many curies is that?"

[Chev. William]

Crank,
Just to throw another idea out there late in the game; ".277 Whisperer"?
Best Regards for the 4th of July, Happy Birthday America!
Chev. William

[Crank]

Chev.
That could work well, as long as I don't incur the wrath of J.D. Jones.

Mark

[3leggedturtle]

Or you could also do a 25WCF necked up, or a 38/357 necked down. Or you could neck down a 32 S&W long and throat your barrel so which ever boolit you are going to use, its base wont go below the neck. Depending on what velocity you want, and how much you want to make future owners ponder the cartridge and your sanity :groner::groner:

[Crank]

3leggedturtle,
Respectfully, I say again, I have REN dies, ammo and brass, I am not looking for an alternate. I can put anything I want on it, but a nice little straight walled case has the charm of many of the period target rounds. As I said, 28-30 would be my personal choice, but I don't need the expense of dies and brass. The goal here was to ferret out data that would indicate the typical operating pressure of published loads. Thanks to the digging of some savvy other members, that has been eliminated as an option, so loading it to those levels and marking it as a REN is out.

JHeath,
That was a fascinating article, I had never heard about that incident. Thanks for the lesson, as for curies, that is in the same realm as a henweigh. It likely depends on the amount of calcium ingestion/absorption to excreta ratio, however my scatological studies are lacking:lol:.

Mark

[3leggedturtle]

Sorry had my selective vision glasses on. Been thinking about wildcats too much lately.

[Crank]

No worries, I want to emphasize that I didn't want to sound harsh. I figured if I bolded the letters it would avoid confusion. Those are excellent suggestions.

Mark

[3leggedturtle]

Heres another thot [smilie=1: Since the 270 Ren is a straight case that is trimmed back to 1.290 or so. You could leave it full length, which after fire forming should be about 1.390 or so. Would look like a small version of a 357 Max or 38/55.

[Nobade]

Aah, 3leggedturtle beat me to it! I have a Sako rifle that was originally a Hornet and I re-barreled to 27 Hornet. Just like the Ren, but full length. Gives a little more power at the same pressure or a little less pressure at the same power. Since we're not under IHMSA rules there's no reason to go with a regular Ren. The Redding Ren dies work fine to reload it, and I had Mountain Molds make up a nice little 95 grain boolit for it. If it were loaded with black powder or Blackhorn 209 if you didn't want to worry about fouling control, it would make a dandy little low wall cartridge. As a bonus you don't need a chamber reamer - it's straight, so I used a chucking reamer to cut the chamber, and a normal 270 rifle throater to cut the throat. On the Winchester you would need to single point in the rim cut also, but again no big deal. Makes for a pretty neat setup.

Oh - one other thought. Normal 270 barrels are 1:10 twist, too fast. Green Mountain makes 6.8 SPC barrels in 1:11.5, still too fast but better. Ideally you could get one of the cut rifle places to make you a 1:14 or so depending on the boolit you want to shoot, and the money you want to spend on it.
-Nobade

[Crank]

Thank you both for a great idea. That way I can still utilize the dies and the brass would be a bit short, but usable in a pinch. I have some unaltered Hornet brass and the machine work sounds pretty uncomplicated. I appreciate that idea and will investigate it further.

Mark

[3leggedturtle]

Aah, 3leggedturtle beat me to it! I have a Sako rifle that was originally a Hornet and I re-barreled to 27 Hornet. Just like the Ren, but full length. Gives a little more power at the same pressure or a little less pressure at the same power. Since we're not under IHMSA rules there's no reason to go with a regular Ren. The Redding Ren dies work fine to reload it, and I had Mountain Molds make up a nice little 95 grain boolit for it. If it were loaded with black powder or Blackhorn 209 if you didn't want to worry about fouling control, it would make a dandy little low wall cartridge. As a bonus you don't need a chamber reamer - it's straight, so I used a chucking reamer to cut the chamber, and a normal 270 rifle throater to cut the throat. On the Winchester you would need to single point in the rim cut also, but again no big deal. Makes for a pretty neat setup.

Oh - one other thought. Normal 270 barrels are 1:10 twist, too fast. Green Mountain makes 6.8 SPC barrels in 1:11.5, still too fast but better. Ideally you could get one of the cut rifle places to make you a 1:14 or so depending on the boolit you want to shoot, and the money you want to spend on it.
-Nobade

Sounds like a great combo. What loads, velocities and critters do you use it on? How did you decide to make it and the to leave it full length?

[Nobade]

Sounds like a great combo. What loads, velocities and critters do you use it on? How did you decide to make it and the to leave it full length?

Critters are half scale silhouettes. My wife wanted a really low recoil rifle to shoot them with, and I had a 270 barrel blank and a set of Ren dies I picked up somewhere so it sorta went together. I bought her that Sako to use but it never would shoot worth a darn so it was time for a rebuild. I had had a Ren in the past and it seemed to me very silly to trim the cases shorter if I wasn't under IHMSA rules so I left it full length. Actually I formed some cases and cut the chamber to fit them, for very minimal room between the end of the case and the end of the chamber. That way it would work well with paper patched loads and not leave paper rings. The normal load is 7 grains of Lil' Gun and enough cream 'o' wheat to make a compressed load. That runs the 95gr. boolit at about 1800 fps with sub MOA accuracy. (it's a plain base boolit) if I want full power, I size the same boolits to .271" and patch them up to .278" and load over a full case of Lil' Gun, for 2250 fps. Then it gets pretty serious and would make quite a hunting rifle for coyotes or something similar. But so far it's never killed anything, just rang a lot of steel.

It took a while to come up with a really good load. Every powder I tried was either inaccurate from the start or would be going too fast for the PB boolit by the time it started working right. Finally I went to this powder and filler and everything came together and it really shot well. I know I could get a gaschecked design and make life easier, but I wanted plain base so I stuck with it until I got it to work. Other powders that work well are H110, 296, (same thing) and blue dot. Unique isn't bad for loads in the 1200-1400 fps range. VV N110 worked well, but IMR4227 was too slow. Your ideal powder choices are pretty limited with this cartridge, especially if you want top performance, but load it right and it's pretty interesting. Of course for the OP's wanting to use it in a low wall, either black powder or one of the subs would be the best so as to not loosen up the action over time.

-Nobade

[ohland]

I turned the reflectors up to full power on my tinfoil hat.Mark

You idiot! By simply using Reynolds Wrap Non-Stick Foil with the non-stick to the OUTSIDE, all the mind control beams will SLIDE off! This is like the Stealth coating on the B-2. It works even better if you maintain a polarity difference between the inner and outer side. If you use one of those mini fluorescent DC-DC adapters, it can buck it up to 90 volts... My Krill electroluminescent light works off of two AA batteries, slight hum on the AM band, though...

[rking22]

OH Great, now I want one too! sounds like a very interesting project! Not to hijack the thread , but Nobade, what does the OAL come out to with that 95gr bullet and could you post a pic or give the mold number? I have a conender that might get a new barrel :) I like the chucking reamer idea, did that with my 30 special.

[Nobade]

rking22, sure! The mould number wouldn't matter since I bought it from Mountain Molds, and everything he does is custom. You just need to decide what you want and draw it up on his website. I checked a loaded round, and the overall length is 1.720". Here is a picture if I can get it to work:112163

Looks like it did. It is a cute little cartridge, the only drawbacks are the lack of light weight 270 boolits and slow twist barrels. Otherwise it's a pretty neat trick.

-Nobade

[rking22]

Man, I like that ..looks like a 7mm CCM. I looked at the REN way back as a sillewet gun but never "pulled te trigger" so to speak. Now that looks like the making of a perfect small game rifle ,maybe a TCR 83 barrel in my future. The fastish twist will just restrict max velocity ,but seems you have already established that it is fine for the speeds I seek. Looks passably like a black powder round from the 1890s so a barrel marking of that general vintage would seem appropriate. Might even shoot well with a dose of FFF! 28-15-95 has a nice ring to it. Would be awesome in a trim little lowwall. thanks for the pic.

[Crank]

Greetings to all. I have been delinquent keeping up with this thread while attending a school in VA. for the MK110 57MM gun system for the past month. However, it looks like some great ideas are flying. All of them keep with the intent of using what I have, just throttled back. Nobade, thanks for the picture, that evokes the essence of one of the old time straight wall calibers.

Mark

[rking22]

Crank, I take it that isn't a Savage 110 in 8x57 ??? Sounds interesting anyway :)

on topic,, that picture has me looking for Ren "stuff" and/or an action (or TC carbine bbl) too! I just want something to shoot it in:)

[Crank]

That is an awesome idea! A Savage in 8x57 would be a delight. However, the gun I was working with is a 57MM Bofors cannon. That would be more like a 57x600mm cartridge, which would be adequate for ground squirrels (five miles away) :). I have an interesting day job.

Mark

[rking22]

So thats probably a micro groove? Wonder if it's cast friendly..... Yeah, kinda interesting day job I'd say!

[JHeath]

"Bofors" . . . is that Swedish for "Bird Poop"?

[Chev. William]

That is an awesome idea! A Savage in 8x57 would be a delight. However, the gun I was working with is a 57MM Bofors cannon. That would be more like a 57x600mm cartridge, which would be adequate for ground squirrels (five miles away) :). I have an interesting day job.

Mark

"only" 5 miles away? I would think it would have a longer useful range for that size target.
Good to read your posts again.
Chuckling,
Best Regards,
Chev. William